Technique for steep crud?

[Liam]

Even Deslaurier says there is a time for hopping...now, he does build a " pedal-hop" turn that uses similar mechanics as HH (early weight shift, etc) but you have to pivot in the air at some point.

To say you'd 'never' need this is funny, maybe a true master like HH, sure (but I'd still bet there are some chutes, in some conditions he'd hop).

Now, you could eschew skiing steep challenging and narrow terrain until you have rock solid faith in your brushed carve skill 'in all conditions at all pitches.' which is what the PMTS advocates often advise.  But then again, that'd probably take you...what 5-10 years (how often do you ski, what is your off season training regimen)-but you'd miss 5-10 years of exciting skiing.

There are plenty of runs that have 100-200ft of sketch-narrow lead-ins but then open up to a more moderate pitch and serve up some of the best snow on the mountain (ski stauffenberg's next time you're at Taos as the text book example of this).  There's is no reason to gyp yourself out of great adventures because of an unreasonable bias against moving your feet in a particular manner in order to navigate the occasional 100 feet of tricky vert once in a while!

PMTS is a great basis for skiing and making all manner of ski turns, but to pursue it as an end in and of itself undermines the real reason to ski.

Here's my advice, while working 98% of the Time on Your Bullet-Proof Short Turn-spend  2% of your time learning these other useful maneuvers---if you own them, you will never-ever be in trouble on any mountain anywhere in any condition or piste (on resort of backcountry):

1. Bullet Proof Side Slip (facing both ways, also master falling leafs)

2. Bullet Proof Kick Turn (you can't believe how useful this is)

3. Bullet Proof Hop Turns: 2 Kinds
    a. Hopping edge change (which is Harb-approved)
    b. Full Hop with air pivot

remember, hopping gracefully and staying in balance in real tricky situations ain't so easy--the full hop with pivot can be a pedal-hop if that suits you.

Check out the Section 8 ski videos on Youtube or just on the Section 8 ski site.  Tobin is a great no-nonsense skier with some great tutorials.  Here's one on old-school hopping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vREBYOCUCj0&list=PL2FC5F6E4FD38696C&index=5

And here's a great video of Tobin showing the versatility of an unbiased use of turning mechanics...got video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFK2rGL_Wmo&list=PL2FC5F6E4FD38696C

[HeluvaSkier]

And here's a great video of Tobin showing the versatility of an unbiased use of turning mechanics...got video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFK2rGL_Wmo&list=PL2FC5F6E4FD38696C

I do have video (do you?). I'm glad mine doesn't look like what you just posted. I have to say that I am frequently underwhelmed by the skiing of those who are supposedly 'professional skiers'.

This is what true professional skiers look like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xdHn8ZKVD0&list=FLaFDs9AxgHSYG_WZKgbPmng&index=39 (Pussnig)
(Berger)
(Berger again)
(Reilly)
(Lorenz)
(Reilly)

...and on the topic of hop turns...

A few important things to remember (or note if this is your first rodeo): When carving if you want to be slow, make your skis leave the snow. When skiing bumps/crud if you want to be fast, let your skis leave the snow. [insightful relationship shared by a friend of mine] Additionally, every time your skis leave the snow it requires that you re-balance. If you're already not a strong skier - why take such a chance? Learn a way to do it without taking those kinds of risks so when your skis leave the snow it is from momentum and rebound - not because you're hopping around and pushing off the skis.

[Johnny2R]

Some wonderful skiing there, Heluvaskier! But I'd still love to see a clip of some 100% bonafide PMTS skiing, on a steep slope in nasty snow, at a slow, controlled pace. I'm not for a moment doubting that it can be done, I'm sure it can - it's just that all the examples I've seen are of much faster skiing than I'd want to be doing in the conditions I'm talking about (particularly in a narrow couloir with rocks around). I'm looking for technique to get me steadily, safely, in control, down those areas in the off-piste where it's more something to be got out of the way rather than part of the fun skiing.

[Liam]

Some wonderful skiing there, Heluvaskier! But I'd still love to see a clip of some 100% bonafide PMTS skiing, on a steep slope in nasty snow, at a slow, controlled pace. I'm not for a moment doubting that it can be done, I'm sure it can - it's just that all the examples I've seen are of much faster skiing than I'd want to be doing in the conditions I'm talking about (particularly in a narrow couloir with rocks around). I'm looking for technique to get me steadily, safely, in control, down those areas in the off-piste where it's more something to be got out of the way rather than part of the fun skiing.

Yeah, Heluva all those videos are great, but the only guys skiing steeps is a few shots of Reily, and a few moments in the first video...AND, when any of them hits the steeps, you're right they don't hop turn it, they launch it at speed and ski on (top flight stuff!).

Which brings me to me fourth skill:

1. Bullet Proof Jumping skills at speed 

High speed jumping couloirs, pesky cliff-outs and boulders and short sections of 50 plus degree slopes is certainly a good strategy for navigating that terrain...though not exactly available to all skiers, huh?

BUt, as Johnny says, he doesn't want to launch that terrain and ski it at such reckless speeds...hmmm, now what could he do in steep, narrow, tricky snow terrain that would give him speed control and allow him to navigate those areas fairly easily with a little practice?  What are the moves that would really minimize the time he keeps his skis in the Fall-Line in no-fall zones??

Oh, and Tobin is an excellent skier, he shows models you can actually follow and emulate-and his bump skiing in the second video I posted is excellent-smooth and solid in real deep, large moguls.  I haven't seen a video here, on PMTS, or Epic of anyone skiing them better (who wasn't already and established name like Berger, or Patrick Deneen).   

[HeluvaSkier]

Johnny, all of the skiing movements shown in the clips I posted can be applied at lower levels. They key it that you still have to use those movements if you want to keep your skis on the snow. No hop turning required.

Liam,
Are you just making things up as you post? If you're truly in a no-fall zone, the stupidest thing an intermediate skier can do is hop, giving them a chance to lose balance, break the snow, or gain speed. Everything you're suggesting in this thread is replacing knowledge of how to make the skis turn, with a large unecessary muscular effort to force the skis to turn. This not skiing or turning, but hacking your way through terrain that you do not possess the skill to actually ski. You consider this necessary because your skiing reality is such that you can't understand how to do it any other way. Just because you can't make your skis work on this kind of terrain does not make muscling them the right choice. Frankly it is a little disappointing to me when intermediate skiers pose as experts on topics of technique and in doing so mislead other skiers who are trying to open up their repertoire of available terrain. 

...and btw, Tobins bump skiing isn't that good. The fact that you're even looking for a non-pro skier to compare to it demonstrates that it is attainable. Tobin is not a good skier.

[Johnny2R]

This not skiing or turning, but hacking your way through terrain that you do not possess the skill to actually ski. You consider this necessary because your skiing reality is such that you can't understand how to do it any other way. Just because you can't make your skis work on this kind of terrain does not make muscling them the right choice. Frankly it is a little disappointing to me when intermediate skiers pose as experts on topics of technique and in doing so mislead other skiers who are trying to open up their repertoire of available terrain.

Have you got some video of yourself skiing this kind of terrain in the way you suggest? It would really help me if I could see video as an example to learn from.

[HeluvaSkier]

Johnny,
No I don't have much video on that kind of terrain due to my limited access to it. When I do ski it, I don't video much, and if I do it is more in-line with the first video I posted... Because I don't get to ski it often I want to make the most of it.

[Liam]

Liam,
Are you just making things up as you post? If you're truly in a no-fall zone, the stupidest thing an intermediate skier can do is hop, giving them a chance to lose balance, break the snow, or gain speed. Everything you're suggesting in this thread is replacing knowledge of how to make the skis turn, with a large unecessary muscular effort to force the skis to turn. This not skiing or turning, but hacking your way through terrain that you do not possess the skill to actually ski. You consider this necessary because your skiing reality is such that you can't understand how to do it any other way. Just because you can't make your skis work on this kind of terrain does not make muscling them the right choice. Frankly it is a little disappointing to me when intermediate skiers pose as experts on topics of technique and in doing so mislead other skiers who are trying to open up their repertoire of available terrain. 


...and btw, Tobins bump skiing isn't that good. The fact that you're even looking for a non-pro skier to compare to it demonstrates that it is attainable. Tobin is not a good skier.
[/quote]

Quite the contrary-I can imagine all manner of ways to ski all manner of terrain.  Aside from the barbs pointed towards me personally, I'll add a few more things:

I'm hardly on unorthodox grounds suggesting a few well-placed hop turns (plus a solid side slip) are skills someone might want to use as the venture into the steep and narrow (especially if the snow is truly a difficult crud/ crust) variety.  Those moves come in handy and they help the advancing skier experience more and more exciting terrain, which is why I, and many others, ski in the first place. 

It's why Deslaurier and others like him who run 'steep and deep' style camps teach it to their clients.  It has utility, and, unlike the modern ski **** dudes who's 'laying them over' in the steeps is filling coffins, these utilitarian moves have kept them alive.

I'd expect that someone who skied as a child, ski raced all their lives and now worked a portion of their adulthood as a ski race coach could probably carve (brushed variety) much steeper and narrower terrain than most...but there would still be a limit, unless you hit the Hoji level (but as I said, that puts you on the date with death calendar).

I actually went through a pretty standard ski evolution: Spent a long time as a very athletic intermediate (I could hop like a **** kangaroo) and then spent almost 5 years eschewing all hopping, and pivoting if possible-I was hot on the Harb stuff (still am) and I liked Clendenin (actually he's the one who derided hop turns as an 'air stem'-that stuck with me).  I absolutely refused to hop or make any moves that didn't fit this paradigm

Until a few years ago... I was skiing some tight new england trees in some deep, manky snow with a guy named Tom-now try as I might, every once in a while I'd get bogged down and could not move my skis quick enough to avoid hitting logs or getting tripped up (you know, that sort of terrain where there are areas you have to turn, and you don't always get to turn where you want to turn!).  I watched him, he mostly skied similar to a pmts standard, except in sticky tight spots he'd bust out this quick 'crud-hop' (he called it)-sometimes no more than a hopping edge change, sometime a hop and pivot (or double pivot)-and he easily kept his trajectory and sailed right through some impressive terrain, looked good doing it, and he was on 68mm K2 Crossfires in a 167cm!

Afterwards I asked him to teach me that move, I worked on it for two days (a few hours each day) and you know what--it was liberating.  Both in terms of what I could ski and handle AND paradigmatically-I realized my slavish adherence to a single movement pattern which had helped build my overall turn mechanics, was stultifying my growth, and more importantly, my enjoyment of skiing in other areas.

Like I said, go 98% with HH (or some other facsimile)-2% in acquiring 'bacon saving skills'--sooner or later we ALL need them.

That said, do I doubt another set of moves would work in similar terrain??  Nope-but I know what actually did work (and continues to work for me)...and a lot of other far better skiers than either of us.

I make no bones about liking the Section 8 stuff (and most of the other top CSIA LvL 4's as well-which Tobin comes out of).-Heck, I'm a fan of Josh Foster as well.  I like Berger, too-and I like Reilly--none of those guys are affiliated with PMTS (HH has chipped at Berger in his forum and Reilly rather publicly distanced himself from pmts).

None of that matters to me, however, as I'm not stuck with an allegiance to one guy's set of high priced ski lessons.

[Gary]

Your point well stated Liam!

A lot of interesting thoughts and opinions....and ultimately...J2R... .ya find what works.

Best, g

[geoffda]

I think part of the reason that Liam is getting flack is because, while his subsequent posts were reasonable, his initial response was not.  Hop turns are not the best choice for skiing steeps or crud--though occasionally you do need to retract aggressively enough to pop your skis free so you can change edges when the mank is extra gooey.  Moreover, the OP was asking about steep refrozen crud--and icy conditions are the last place where a hop turn would be helpful.  When it gets slick, you need progressive edge engagement throughout the entire turn, not the late slamming of edges that results from a full hop turn.

PMTS is not religion--you won't go to hell for hopping a turn or three.  But what practitioners of PMTS learn is that when you are able to carve the high C portion of the turn, you get a level of precision and control that is incomprehensible to those who don't ski that way.  Much of the PMTS versus the world type arguments stem from this lack of understanding.  Developing the skills to carve the high C takes time, effort, and persistence (not to mention a basis in understanding how technical actually skiing works).  If you don't ski that way, the arguments for doing so aren't going to make much sense.  If you do  ski that way, you won't consider anything else because anything less than high C engagement feels sketchy.  Hence the howls of protest from the PMTS folks whenever anyone suggests something that involves twisting the feet as a general solution for anything. 

Yes, full hop turns may sometimes be necessary, but nobody who skis the high C would ever treat them as anything other than an emergency maneuver, or an option of last resort.  The fact is, when you can carve high C turns, having to abandon the high C is scary.  You understand exactly what you are giving up and when you have to resort to something like a hop turn and you hate doing it because it is so much less controlled.  In the case of hop turns, you also hate doing them because they require so much physical effort and they just don't feel good.  Fighting gravity sucks--especially when you are used to treating it as your plaything.  Hop turns are not, in the PMTS view, good skiing and even if you have to use them once in a while, that doesn't make them worth talking about.  You get better by practicing the ideal, not the one-offs. 

I don't practice hop turns because I find that if I need to do one, I can.  They are just an extreme application of movements I already have.  Interestingly, after becoming a PMTS skier, I found that my execution of hop turns actually changed to match my new movements.  All of which tends to support the argument that if you have the skills to be where hop turns might actually be warranted, you will instinctively know how to do them should you need to.  Really, I don't consider hop turns to even be a turn, and as such, the only time I consider using them is when I'm somewhere that is so steep and narrow that there is simply not enough room for the skis to work.

That said, the crux of the argument really boils down to what kind of skier you want to be.  The DesLauriers teach skiers to ski the whole mountain while PMTS teaches expert skiing.  There is a difference.  Most all mountain skiers are not experts.  If you want to be an expert skier, perfect your ability to release, transfer, and engage until you can do it in any conditions and on (almost) any terrain.  Practice the ideal and strive for it at all times in your skiing.

[Liam]

I think part of the reason that Liam is getting flack is because, while his subsequent posts were reasonable, his initial response was not.  Hop turns are not the best choice for skiing steeps or crud--though occasionally you do need to retract aggressively enough to pop your skis free so you can change edges when the mank is extra gooey.  Moreover, the OP was asking about steep refrozen crud--and icy conditions are the last place where a hop turn would be helpful.  When it gets slick, you need progressive edge engagement throughout the entire turn, not the late slamming of edges that results from a full hop turn.

Ok this is my original response in this thread about Skiing steep crud:  Others here might not tell you this but: For real steep crud, you'll want a well-balanced hop-turn.  Now whether that is the 'pedal-hop' favored by Deslaurier or a more old school 'Spiess Hop' or just a crud busting hopping edge change is up to you.  But real steeps with deeper tricky snow require having a 'no-room' edge/ direction change move in your back pocket....maybe even master a high angle kick turn, that move has saved my bacon in back country/ steep off piste situations.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say this is the basis for all turns, or 'the way to ski.'  I left it open to try old school or decidedly new hopping methods--an any of these will fit the techniques of a specific school.



PMTS is not religion--you won't go to hell for hopping a turn or three.  But what practitioners of PMTS learn is that when you are able to carve the high C portion of the turn, you get a level of precision and control that is incomprehensible to those who don't ski that way.

Uh, never argued against the value of skiing the top of the turn (Hi-C to you guys).  Heck the deslaurier model still preserves this as the beginning of all 'pedal' maneuvers

 

Yes, full hop turns may sometimes be necessary, That is exactly my point, the following exposition doesn't change the fact we've reached the  place...


but nobody who skis the high C would ever treat them as anything other than an emergency maneuver, or an option of last resort.  The fact is, when you can carve high C turns, having to abandon the high C is scary. Why do you have to abandon the Hi C to make a hop turn??  The Pedal Hop relies og a strong Hi-C/ little toe edge engagement-it's the MIDDLE C you're abandonning..and heck, sometimes it's enough to just hop to edge change...a Harb Approved exercise 

You understand exactly what you are giving up and when you have to resort to something like a hop turn and you hate doing it because it is so much less controlled Really, 'hate' and 'have to resort to'...sounds like religious guilt to me. 

In the case of hop turns, you also hate doing them because they require so much physical effort and they just don't feel good They aren't that taxing to execute, and how they feel is subjective..  Fighting gravity sucks--especially when you are used to treating it as your plaything Uh, when you jump off of something and land lower--how is that 'fighting gravity, it's more working with gravity..

 Hop turns are not, in the PMTS view, good skiing and even if you have to use them once in a while, that doesn't make them worth talking about good skiing? Seriously?  There is a thrill navigating everything you encounter on a big wild space, and that's what's good...we got got and ends and means dyslexia going on here.  You get better by practicing the ideal, not the one-offs. I said as much-however, I do think a little time getting the feel of the one offs pays dividends...Perhaps that is why you 'hate' doing them so much and feel you are fighting gravity and lack control...you don't know how to pull them off in crux situations and maximize balance, agility, and stability

I don't practice hop turns because I find that if I need to do one, I can. See above comment

They are just an extreme application of movements I already have.Then why are they bad, alien feelings and 'hateful???  Interestingly, after becoming a PMTS skier, I found that my execution of hop turns actually changed to match my new movements.Imagine that. 

All of which tends to support the argument that if you have the skills to be where hop turns might actually be warranted, you will instinctively know how to do them should you need toAgain, from how unpleasant they sound to you I'm not sure that is entirely true-it should feel no more alien Than standing in your driveway and hopping in sneakers.  Really, I don't consider hop turns to even be a turn, and as such, the only time I consider using them is when I'm somewhere that is so steep and narrow that there is simply not enough room for the skis to work.
Again, this is my point, no matter what you consider them, even a vaunted PMTS camper like Geofda hops from time to time...and those times are times when f-ing up is at a premium...why not do them better
That said, the crux of the argument really boils down to what kind of skier you want to be.  The DesLauriers teach skiers to ski the whole mountain while PMTS teaches expert skiing.  There is a difference.  Most all mountain skiers are not experts.  If you want to be an expert skier, perfect your ability to release, transfer, and engage until you can do it in any conditions and on (almost) any terrain.  Practice the ideal and strive for it at all times in your skiing.  If you aren't an all mountain skier you aren't an expert whether you make your turns by flexing and tipping or you make your turns while balancing on your hands--HH's way is a good path to all mountain skiing, of course[/color]

[HeluvaSkier]

Geoff! Welcome Sir. Great to finally have the contributions of another skilled skier here.

Liam,
This all needs to be said... and I hope you don't take it the wrong way, because I would love to have the opportunity to share turns with you someday, and I don't want to ruin that opportunity if it ever presents itself [I truly mean that]. I will never try to change how you ski, or your viewpoint on ski technique. You will ski how you ski, and progress how you want to progress. Gary will back me up on this: I have strong opinions on technique, but I do not push them on those who are simply out to enjoy the mountain and the company it brings. I would never take issue with that, or try to take it away from anyone. I'm out there for the same reason as you - I love to ski, and I love to share the mountain with friends.

What I do take issue with is when an inferior skier who knows very little about expert technique, and cannot demonstrate expert technique, misleads other skiers on the subject of technique. What is worse is when this is pointed out to the individual doing the misleading, and they still persist. As I told Gary and LP recently, PMTS is an avenue to great skiing... it IS NOT a "way to ski". Is it the best/easiest avenue? I think so. Other great skiers may have different avenues, but what they don't disagree with are the results of my route when they see them. If a skier gets to the same place, or beyond, with a different method - great! I won't discredit that skier because their path was different. My skiing and coaching however, is the result of the combination of fitness, PMTS, and an understanding of ski performance and use that most will never comprehend. My skill set is unique, and it does serve a purpose. I walk the talk.

So lets talk hop turns. I will ignore the shortcomings of the exercise that I have already highlighted.

Can I hop turn? Uh, Yes.
Will I, if faced with the need? You bet.
Why would I use a hop turn? Because I **** up a prior turn and needed to get it back, or I was faced with a serious issue.
Do I practice it, or even consider it a technique that I need to develop? Never.
Why? Because I don't need it and they are too much work without any ski performance payoff.

The lack of need is they big key that you're missing. Do I understand every word of what you have posted? Yes I do. Can I ski like you, on the terrain you ski on? Yes, there is no doubt. Would I choose to ski like you do on that terrain? Never. Can you ski like me? Got video? I've gone from beginner to expert with [mostly] self coaching. I know how to go from beginner to expert - I did it - on my own. I can repeat and re-engineer it. What you need to recognize is that there are skiers who live in a totally different reality from you, the best skiers you know, and possibly the best skiers you have ever met. A level exists far beyond what you see in the best skiers on the mountain every day. A few think of that level of skiing as their reality; their home base; their normal. What you may consider a necessary technique, is a bail-out maneuver to that same few... Something they use before they "start skiing", which translates to "start linking good [expert] turns."

Respect those skiers. They will offer the same respect to you in return. They are skiers who know far more than you, and they are more accessible than you might imagine. I personally don't care if you listen to them or not, but do not steer others away from great skiing because of your own limitations, bias, or misunderstandings.

I am a student of great skiing, regardless of the origin. I advise that you not postulate as a teacher, but as someone who is keen to learn. If you are not keen to learn, then at least allow others to learn to apply what you refuse to or are not interested in.

The skill set I possess makes me an absolute nightmare to poseurs [when it comes to technique I make Josh (BW) look like a happy-go-lucky fellow]. Unlike Max, or HA, or Goeff, or jbotti, I am not subtle, I will blatantly show what you don't know, I will expose what you don't know to your avid readers, and I won't leave it up to their interpretation to draw an opinion. Those who have skied with me [many from this forum] know that I am not exaggerating even slightly. Do not read this as a threat (I wouldn't, unprovoked, publicly dismantle another skier's technique/understanding to prove a point), but I do ask that you understand the point of view.

Do not quote to respond. Do not respond in red as you did to Geoff [sorry, that was the welcome you endured Geoff, hope you stick around]. Do not respond. Take it in Liam. Learn something that will take, if not your skiing, but at least your understanding and respect for others' knowledge to a level that you don't currently possess.

[Johnny2R]

Geoff, thanks for your contributions - lucid and well articulated as always.

Hop turns are not the best choice for skiing steeps or crud--though occasionally you do need to retract aggressively enough to pop your skis free so you can change edges when the mank is extra gooey.  Moreover, the OP was asking about steep refrozen crud--and icy conditions are the last place where a hop turn would be helpful. 

Well, I was actually thinking of any kind of bad, problem snow. That's why I take issue with the injunction to always keep your skis in the snow - I'm sure even HH, in one of the books, advocates retracting your skis out of the heavy crud to turn.

Developing the skills to carve the high C takes time, effort, and persistence (not to mention a basis in understanding how technical actually skiing works).  If you don't ski that way, the arguments for doing so aren't going to make much sense.  If you do  ski that way, you won't consider anything else because anything less than high C engagement feels sketchy.

Nothing that either Liam or I have written suggests anything else. I suspect that Liam is a pretty skilled PMTS skier and will carve the high C in all conditions which allow it (and I will try to do so, in my own floundering way). The question is rather whether it is sufficient for all situations.

Yes, full hop turns may sometimes be necessary, but nobody who skis the high C would ever treat them as anything other than an emergency maneuver, or an option of last resort..SNIP...All of which tends to support the argument that if you have the skills to be where hop turns might actually be warranted, you will instinctively know how to do them should you need to.  Really, I don't consider hop turns to even be a turn, and as such, the only time I consider using them is when I'm somewhere that is so steep and narrow that there is simply not enough room for the skis to work.

Exactly! And what is wrong with that? The mountain throws all kind of things at you which you have to deal with. Sometime I have to take my skis off - but I'm not advocating taking skis off as a model of skiing, instead of PMTS turns.

That said, the crux of the argument really boils down to what kind of skier you want to be.  The DesLauriers teach skiers to ski the whole mountain while PMTS teaches expert skiing.  There is a difference.  Most all mountain skiers are not experts.  If you want to be an expert skier, perfect your ability to release, transfer, and engage until you can do it in any conditions and on (almost) any terrain. 

I want to be an expert skier, but I want to be able to ski the whole mountain, too (or at least most of it) and I don't want to have to achieve full expert skier status before having a go. If I find myself in a situation where I don't have the perfect technique for dealing with it (which may be the A Grade PMTS bullet-proof short turn), I want to have at least a stand-by imperfect technique for dealing with it, something which allows me to get to more manageable terrain safely and in control, even if it's not especially elegant. This is an area where I routinely transgress by PMTS standards, according to which I shouldn't be venturing off-piste, or even onto steeper slopes, without having completely mastered the BPST on gentle slopes. I'm afraid I don't have the luxury for that - I ski at most 15-20 days a year, and above all I want to have fun while doing so, which can often involve playing around off-piste. I am 100% self-taught by the PMTS method, and my aim is to be able to take my PMTS skills to a higher and higher level - but I still want to have fun in the meantime.

[Johnny2R]

This all needs to be said... and I hope you don't take it the wrong way, because I would love to have the opportunity to share turns with you someday, and I don't want to ruin that opportunity if it ever presents itself [I truly mean that]... [SNIP]... What I do take issue with is when an inferior skier who knows very little about expert technique, and cannot demonstrate expert technique, misleads other skiers on the subject of technique. What is worse is when this is pointed out to the individual doing the misleading, and they still persist. ond. Take it in Liam. Learn something that will take, if not your skiing, but at least your understanding and respect for others' knowledge to a level that you don't currently possess.

So, you've never skied with Liam, and yet you refer to him as 'an inferior skier who knows very little about expert technique, and cannot demonstrate expert technique'?  When you say 'I hope you don't take it the wrong way', what way do you expect him to to take it?

As far as I'm concerned, all Liam is saying is that, while PMTS takes him 99% of the way, there are situations he finds himself in occasionally where he finds it helpful to do something from outside the rule book. I don't see a problem with that, and I don't see anything in that which even remotely questions the use of PMTS as the basis of great skiing.

As I mentioned above, I'm completely self-taught by the PMTS method (and probably not especially well - I've never skied with another PMTS skier, because they don't really exist in Europe), and I don't question its precepts at all. I do get puzzled by the religious absolutism of it, though, in the more hardened advocates like yourself. Is there really something so terrible about the suggestion that there might be occasional situations, 1% of the time, where a different technique might come in handy?

[geoffda]

The "religious absolutism" is really a disconnect between those who have done the things being discussed and those who have not.  The difference between doing a true high C engagement turn versus a full hop turn is incredibly stark.  I remember a run I took when I first started to get it, where things started out nice and roomy and then devolved into a very narrow chute of steep bumps.  Up top, I was able to make high C turns, but when it got narrow, the terrain, shall we say, exceeded my skill level at the time.  As a result, I skied the second half of the run with a combination of hopping and steering turns.  As much as it sucked, I couldn't have imagined a better object lesson.  The difference was so great that my immediate thought was, "I'm never coming back here until I have the ability to ski that entire run with high C turns."  Keep in mind, this was a run I'd skied many times before, and until I understood what was actually possible, my existing technique had seemed fine.  To someone that has experienced a true high C turn, the idea that any rational person would willingly choose any other way to ski is inconceivable.  While that might be a bit of an overstatement, it hopefully sheds light on the nature of the discussion.  There is a way of skiing that really is THAT much better than what most people ever get to experience--even skiers who seem to be skiing at a very high level.  Whether everyone actually desires to reach that level is a different question, but personally I think it is important that the information is at least available so people have the option.

PMTS isn't a rule book for how we ought to ski.  As Heluva said, it is a pathway to developing great skiing.  If you are skiing down the mountain and you have to hop, then hop.  But also understand that developing your hop turns isn't going to help you master the boards strapped to your feet (assuming that is your goal).  It isn't unlike skivoting in racing.  The best racers don't practice skivoting; it is just something they can do when they need it.  Hop turns are like that.  Develop your carving skills far enough and you will have the movements to hop when and if you need to.  IOW, focus on perfecting the turn you want to make, not on the turn you may occasionally have to make.