Technique for steep crud?

[Johnny2R]

About to head of to Alagna in Italy, which is known for its extensive off-piste. Trouble is, there's been very little new snow for a month now, so I expect the snow to be in pretty poor condition. If I do head off-piste, I'll be dealing with lots of steepish (35-45 deg) slopes probably with frozen crud some of the time. I was there last year and wasn't brilliant at this stuff and would like to improve, so am looking for some suggestions for good defensive technique for dealing with it. I'm a PMTS-oriented skier, and I've tried to learn the techniques the Deslaurier brothers talk about in 'Ski The Whole Mountain' for dealing with real steep stuff, but I really need video demonstrations to help me, I reckon.

So any good ideas, good video snippets, that people can recommend?

[Gary]

Yes.....sharpen your edges....stand on them alot! My final thoughts...keep at least 3 edges in contact with the snow, find the float quickly for smooth transition , complete your turns and it's the first turn that makes or breaks ya!

Have a blast!

G

[Liam]

Others here might not tell you this but:

For real steep crud, you'll want a well-balanced hop-turn.  Now whether that is the 'pedal-hop' favored by Deslaurier or a more old school 'Spiess Hop' or just a crud busting hopping edge change is up to you.  But real steeps with deeper tricky snow require having a 'no-room' edge/ direction change move in your back pocket....maybe even master a high angle kick turn, that move has saved my bacon in back country/ steep off piste situations.

[Gary]

Nice Liam....another great tool to use....!

[Johnny2R]

Didn't manage to see these replies before going out to Alagna, but thanks anyway! Just got back and had a great time, despite lack of fresh new show (although we did get 4-5 inches of new snow on the last day). As it happened, I didn't require any specific new skills for the terrain and conditions I ended up facing (nothing too cruddy, and nothing steeper than about 40 degrees) - but I'd still be keen to hear more about the kinds of hop turn you're talking about, Liam.

I did find this, as a possible useful example: . What kind of turns are these?

[Gary]

Very nicely executed jump turns!  Great tool in tight turns. Compress, load and release...sweet!

Also notice the awesome pole plants and how the arms keep moving, the shoulders stay squared....this guys get his mojo working.

Best, G

[Johnny2R]

There's also this:

So how's he doing these turns? I've been working on the technique from 'Ski The Whole Mountain' of getting your weight onto the uphill ski and jumping from that. But I can't see that this guy is doing that.

[Gary]

Not sure if you've ever jumped between turns or over bumps...it is much easier to do at speed and on steeper terrain. I've certainly had some survival turns that required these motions.

What I see is the skier driving the fronts of the skis and pulling up the tails of each ski. If you use lots if compression and extension, use the terrain features, speed and pitch, it becomes a bit easier I think.

Try this, stand up from where you are right now, get your feet in a ski stance, arms where you normally carry them. Now bend at the knees (not the waist) like you're pressuring your chins against the boot tongues. Now hold that position, then explode from your feet upward. OK....that's a start, add to that pole touches, body and feet angles and snow...you've got your turn...with practice.

You have to be able to load (down pressure compression) and then lighten the body/ skis upward, ( upward extension ). When were carving, we're so used to having our skis, feet, knees, hips all the way up the skeletal chain connected to the ground. Learning to release that energy using the entire body like someone has you on puppet strings would be a way to get that feeling of unloading all that stored energy.

I little trick I use is I don't necessarily pick them both up at the same time, try pulling up the uphill tail first followed instantly by the downhill tail during transition.

let me know if any of this makes sense or helps...all the best, G

[Johnny2R]

Now bend at the knees (not the waist) like you're pressuring your chins against the boot tongues.

I was doing this all wrong, couldn't work it out at all, until I realized you probably meant shins, not chins.

Actually, it's a helpful description, thanks. I'm something of a follower of PMTS - how do these turns fit in with that, do you know? The PMTS turn for dealing with all conditions is referred to as the Bullet-proof Short Radius Turn and doesn't seem to feature any kind of hop, not in the video I've seen anyway. The specific problem I was trying to deal with was when you have a steep slope with snow you can't 'trust' - often soft slush mixed with big lumps of firm snow which tend to take my skis out from under me, which makes me want to get as much above the snow to make the turn as I can.

[Gary]

Ha...my chin never is pressing forward on the front of my boots unless I'm rolling down the mountain....eeek... not good . Thanks for the accurate interpretation....

I've spent time at PMTS clinics and love what I've learned and apply. To my knowledge, what you are seeing is not in any PMTS manual or video.

Johnny 2R.....WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS A TOOL!

IMO, all mountain skiing may require a huge assortment of tools...you use what gets the job done. If we are too focused on what we call the technique OR what school of skiing it comes from, we just might miss out on the pure enjoyment of skiing.

G

[HeluvaSkier]

I agree Gary. I usually see a huge assortment of 'tools' when observing all skiing on the mountain.   

[HighAngles]

Actually, it's a helpful description, thanks. I'm something of a follower of PMTS - how do these turns fit in with that, do you know? The PMTS turn for dealing with all conditions is referred to as the Bullet-proof Short Radius Turn and doesn't seem to feature any kind of hop, not in the video I've seen anyway. The specific problem I was trying to deal with was when you have a steep slope with snow you can't 'trust' - often soft slush mixed with big lumps of firm snow which tend to take my skis out from under me, which makes me want to get as much above the snow to make the turn as I can.

The solution to your quandary is to understand how PMTS approaches every single turn - no matter what part of the mountain you're on or what the conditions.  If you learn how to turn without needing to twist your skis, you'll suddenly realize that you can initiate a turn anywhere, in any condition, on demand.  The combination of tipping, counteraction and counterbalancing, flexing, and fore/aft balance management skills will "release" you.

You know where to go if you want to learn more. 

[Johnny2R]

The solution to your quandary is to understand how PMTS approaches every single turn - no matter what part of the mountain you're on or what the conditions.  If you learn how to turn without needing to twist your skis, you'll suddenly realize that you can initiate a turn anywhere, in any condition, on demand.  The combination of tipping, counteraction and counterbalancing, flexing, and fore/aft balance management skills will "release" you.

I think you may have missed my point here. I don't actually twist my skis to turn, I use the whole flexing, tipping, PMTS thing (at least, to the best of my abilities). My problem is that on steep terrain, with this kind of nasty lumpy snow, tracking through the snow is not enough - you hit one of those lumps of snow/ice and you're down, and that can get ugly. So I need to be out of the snow at the point of transition. Maybe I can do this just with a more pronounced leg retraction (both legs), to get right out of the snow? I'd love to see some video of this, taken at a leisurely pace - I've seen video of HH tearing down steep chopped up double black diamond slopes, but the speed he's going at actually makes this easier in one way, as he's more likely to blast through the problem snow. Are you suggesting that advanced PMTS skills completely obviate the need for the kind of hop turns we're talking about above?

[Gary]

Hi J2R.....It is my belief the premise of the post was asking what is the skier doing and how can I do this.

SO in my response I was trying to address what I was seeing and to the best of my ability, describe what I was seeing.

With regards to HA comments and my personal thoughts....I probably would not ski that same line the same way the skier in the video does, I would stay connected to the ground, get my skis tips pointed more uphill and less in the fall line and ski it with more rounded turns. ....BUT that's just my style.

Do I think it's great to know how to make that kind of turn...yup...indeed . But I also believe ski to snow contact trumps air moves anytime. For example, release and uphill edge sets or edge checks could help mange turn shape and speed in tight situations and another ideal situation to have that kind of a turn might be in a very narrow steep chute where there is limited ability to round out turns and speed management is critical.

Tools is cools! 

Best, G

[HighAngles]

J2R - The very fact that you asked the question about how to handle these conditions tells me that you are not entirely/solely turning your skis through the use of PMTS skills.  If you were truly tipping and flexing sufficiently when you make turns (without any twisting) you would never even be phased by crud, mank, chunder, etc. no matter the steepness of the slope.  We do not need to be "out" of the snow and HH certainly doesn't, no matter what speed he's skiing at.

Like we say on the PMTS forum - got video?