Author Topic: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?  (Read 1877 times)

midwif

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Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« on: January 03, 2013, 02:00:12 pm »
Jim and I were discussing the line between "respectful posting" and not.

It has been hard, at times, to keep the basic premise. Both as a poster and separately, as a moderator.

Jokingly, Jim said we've struggled maintaining peace in the "Neutral Zone", maybe we should have another thread: "The War Zone"

You can say anything you want there. Have at it. Kill each other with your ski edges!

Any thoughts or feelings about this? :-\
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 02:36:13 pm by jim-ratliff »
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HeluvaSkier

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2013, 02:44:29 pm »
It already exists. It is called TGR.
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Gary

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2013, 02:56:53 pm »
Civility!

War Zones suck...it's dog eat dog, kill or be killed, no holds barred, angry people, no..not pretty and certainly not the premise this site was formed on.

You can see and hear enough of that in Congress....pleeeez e...not here!

G

midwif

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2013, 04:23:51 pm »
Okay, so far 2 against.
With cogent reasons.

Any dissenting opinions?

"Play it Sam"

HeluvaSkier

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 04:32:09 pm »
I have lots of opinions. They may not be related to the topic, but I can start listing them if you'd like.
All-Mountain: A common descriptive term for boots or skis that are designed to perform equally poorly under a variety of conditions and over many different types of terrain.

HighAngles

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2013, 04:45:54 pm »
So what exactly is the idea?  How would this work?  Most times a thread starts out innocently enough, but then can digress into controversial issues and lead to contemptuous posts.  Will those threads then get moved to the "War Zone"?  Or will it just be another forum area with no moderation (or really self-moderation which is what TGR uses)?

bushwacka

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2013, 04:49:44 pm »
the thing about TGR is this.

If you say something stupid or make people start hating you the maggots collectively will make it their mission to discredit everything you did, said do or have done. Most people can not survive their because they are not use to a libertarian web board.

You can not passively aggressive bait people and expect nothing to happen on TGR.

You also can not stink at skiing and talk trash about other people skiing, in fact on that site almost never talks trash about anyone's skiing. you could be saying Cody Townsend, Sage, or Hoji suck at skiing they all post there.

Lastly most people give the right answer there quicker than most web forums. Almost no one is ever really wrong there about facts, and people know the difference between opinions and fact.

I honestly think this place should not be a war zone, TGR is not a war zone, because  the posters are strong enough to stop that from happening, here the posters are simply not strong enough to self police If they were they would also post on TGR as well.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 05:03:24 pm by bushwacka »

Liam

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2013, 05:19:46 pm »
Well now that Epicski is promotional site for Vail, I might have to start posting up at TGR.  I have participated there in the past and had no ill results.  But I'm not sure that it is as free of unsubstantiated, chest-thumping, braggadocio as 'Bushwacka suggests.

That said, I think too many of the discussions here have been clamped down too quickly.  It's a small group here and the discussions, even when contentious, are a hell of a lot more focused due to the smaller nature of this forum.   

I see Max501 has pulled down all of his past posts except one's selling items.

Bush has been censored recently.

I have had posts squashed.

I appreciate  civility, but not at the cost deadening exchange, and to be honest, we all enjoy a good dust up once in a while on these forums.

You want to read one of the dullest forums right now? Check out PMTS (which as always, has great technique content) but the streamlining of all discussions has really taken the fun out of the place over there and it has lost a lot of it's vibrancy (and posters).  I get that it now serves as only a promotional site for Harb's products, etc..and that makes marketing sense I'm sure, but they've lost the ability to generate some of the really great exchanges, which were sometimes contentious, that developed into really worthy on line reading.

Which is something I've thought about a lot lately, many of these threads across the forums (ski forums, fishing forums, etc) really evolve into pretty dramatic and entertaining, and sometimes even thought-provoking pieces of organically created literature.   The move towards knee-jerk sanitization has done a lot to hamper the evolution of those threads, here and elsewhere.

Finally, the idea of a designated 'War Zone', is a bad one--you'd encourage a false incivility, which is worse than false civility, where people will post something inflammatory just to be inflammatory in a poor mock up of what really happens at TGR.

But I could see getting rid of the 'Neutral' zone...none of us are neutral, least of all the moderators--why pretend to be or that any of us truly leaves our host of biases and arguments at the door when we log in.

I also agree with the complaint, that an absolute insistence on a contrived Civility, allows passive-aggressive posters to run amok while disallowing well-deserved but direct challenges to those posters.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 07:11:05 pm by jim-ratliff »

midwif

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2013, 06:13:54 pm »
I have lots of opinions. They may not be related to the topic, but I can start listing them if you'd like.

Okay, but you have to put them in your own thread. Not this one. ;D
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midwif

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2013, 06:17:47 pm »
So what exactly is the idea?  How would this work?  Most times a thread starts out innocently enough, but then can digress into controversial issues and lead to contemptuous posts.  Will those threads then get moved to the "War Zone"?  Or will it just be another forum area with no moderation (or really self-moderation which is what TGR uses)?

The former.

FYI, this was a 3:30 am thought when back pain woke me up.
Or maybe it was after the pain med kicked in. ::)
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ToddW

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2013, 06:29:18 pm »
I prefer to remain the Neutral Zone ... I have the Vail site and other net sandboxes where I can throw snowballs at the fools, idiots, stuffed shirts, cheats, quacks, and charlatans who are so common in the snowsports industry.

If we do add a war zone, I suggest that it be readable by members only and that web crawler member ids be blocked, if possible.

A funny thing about the label "passive-aggressive" is that two reasonable people can utterly disagree about when it is applicable.  At times I have managed teams of opinionated individuals (world-class PhD's) sprawled across the planet, a situation which actively draws out the passive-aggressive worst in some individuals.  Although I am thus well acquainted with the behavior, IMHO I haven't seen much of it on this forum. 

The truth be told, each of us has offended or upset another forum member once or twice.  I certainly have.  (Sorry Ron.  Sorry Phil ... and every one else.)  It's just part of the internet forum experience.  I valued Max_501's participation on this forum greatly, and I hope that he will continue to participate.


midwif

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2013, 06:42:37 pm »
Well now that Epicski is promotional site for Vail, I might have to start posting up at TGR.  I have participated there in the past and had no ill results.  But I'm not sure that it is as free of unsubstantiated, chest-thumping, braggadocio as 'Bushwacka suggests.

That said, I think too many of the discussions here have been clamped down too quickly.  It's a small group here and the discussions, even when contentious, are a hell of a lot more focused due to the smaller nature of this forum.   

I see Max501 has pulled down all of his past posts except one's selling items.

Bush has been censored recently.

I have had posts squashed.

I appreciate  civility, but not at the cost deadening exchange, and to be honest, we all enjoy a good dust up once in a while on these forums.

You want to read one of the dullest forums right now? Check out PMTS (which as always, has great technique content) but the streamlining of all discussions has really taken the fun out of the place over there and it has lost a lot of it's vibrancy (and posters).  I get that it now serves as only a promotional site for Harb's products, etc..and that makes marketing sense I'm sure, but they've lost the ability to generate some of the really great exchanges, which were sometimes contentious, that developed into really worthy on line reading.

Which is something I've thought about a lot lately, many of these threads across the forums (ski forums, fishing forums, etc) really evolve into pretty dramatic and entertaining, and sometimes even thought-provoking pieces of organically created literature.   The move towards knee-jerk sanitization has done a lot to hamper the evolution of those threads, here and elsewhere.

Finally, the idea of a designated 'War Zone', is a bad one--you'd encourage a false incivility, which is worse than false civility, where people will post something inflammatory just to be inflammatory in a poor mock up of what really happens at TGR.

But I could see getting rid of the 'Neutral' zone...none of us are neutral, least of all the moderators--why pretend to be or that any of us truly leaves our host of biases and arguments at the door when we log in.

I also agree with the complaint, that an absolute insistence on a contrived Civility, allows passive-aggressive posters to run amok while disallowing well-deserved but direct challenges to those posters.

Liam, I agree with much of what you say.
I actually find TGR refreshing in some respects.

The other 2 sites mentioned have become much duller without the occasional dust-ups.

I do wish that when someone is obnoxious, the board here would just ignore them. But that is not human nature.

There is has been very little moderation, IMO at this site. Mostly when exchanges became personal and more than contemptuous.
But, again, it is subjective and difficult to maintain perspective.

Overall, no one wants a War Zone and the forum has spoken. ;D

We will try to keep as clear a focus on keeping to the main guideline. Discuss the subject, your feelings etc, but don't
personally attack another person.

Other than that, have at it!
L.

Just sayin' (stolen from P. Pug)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 07:22:48 pm by midwif »
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ToddW

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2013, 06:46:25 pm »

You can say anything you want there. Have at it. Kill each other with your ski edges!


On second thought ... my edges are sharp and well-tended, so I'll probably emerge the victor.  Sign me up for the war zone and change my handle to "Ski Gladiator Audacissimus."  Be forewarned:  If I slay you here, your Vail site reputation/credibility points become mine along with those skis in your quiver that I deign to ski  ;D

jbotti

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2013, 06:50:12 pm »
There is a reason that violent video games sell so well and why Hollywood keeps cranking out movies with large amounts of explicit violence. Yes it sells and somewhere inside all of us is there is a thirst to see blood. When a fight brakes out, spectators show up real quick.

So yes from an entertainment perspective, the war zone is a really good thing. When people hear that a really good fight is brewing (PMTS versus PSIA, BB versus HH etc) we might get new members real fast just so they can show up and get a few swings in themselves.

There is only one real problem, they never go anywhere. No one ever wins and no one ever changes to the other team (at least not from what they read on forums). It's like tic tac toe and in the end that is a really boring game for precisely the the same reason (no one ever wins).

I see no reason to have a war zone. I do think that many mods in discussions have been potentially premature and it would make great sense to truly define the expected protocol for posting in a sticky up top. I for one am still unclear why asking a question of another poster in a post is considered uncivil?

dan.boisvert

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 07:00:15 pm »
I actually like the way TGR works, and am not opposed to seeing vociferous disagreements every now and again.  I agree with Liam that sometimes an emphasis on civility can be overdone.  Personally, I value content over presentation almost every day of the week.

The PMTS forum is tech-support for PMTS users so, while I agree the debates made things more interesting, they didn't further the mission of the site any.  I think Epic is more about who you know and how much you pay them than what you know, and I imagine the new ownership will put even more emphasis on sponsored posts.

What audience does this forum intend to serve?

I'd post more on TGR, except I don't fit in well with the forum demographic.  I've gotten along great with every maggot I've met in person, but it seems most of those guys are out chasing BC powder while I'm riding high-speed lifts learning to bend a ski properly.  It's a different focus.  Maybe someday I'll learn to ski well enough that I'll get into more touring, but that's not where I'm at right now, and I've grown rather attached to the sensation of arcing a ski and the forces you can generate on hard snow.

I'd be happy to see some interesting debates, and would not be put off by a bit more flexibility with moderation.  I had a conversation a couple years ago with an exceptional coach (I don't think anybody here has met him), and he commented that he stayed off all the internet stuff because, if somebody posted something showing he was an idiot, he'd call him an idiot, and promptly get kicked off the site.  Would I be able to handle a little namecalling to get insight from people with his kind of knowledge of the sport?  ABSOLUTELY.  ;D

HeluvaSkier

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2013, 07:09:04 pm »
Okay, but you have to put them in your own thread. Not this one. ;D

Maybe I need a HeluvaThought of the day thread... perhaps the other forum is a better place for that though.  :P
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midwif

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2013, 07:24:41 pm »
Heluva

Great idea!
Love the name.

How about posting on both sites!
We'll pay you the same as HH does. :P
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jim-ratliff

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2013, 08:13:09 pm »
Wrong Lynn.
That's not a great idea, it's a HeluvaIdea.    ;D
And a HeluvaName.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 08:14:25 pm by jim-ratliff »
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HighAngles

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2013, 08:15:40 pm »
I've felt that discussions here have been a bit too clamped down as of lately.  I want a free and open discourse on any topics in the world of skiing.  If you think I'm an idiot - call me an idiot, but then give me the opportunity to either prove it or disprove it.

I also don't completely fit into the typical demographic on TGR, but I do post there and participate regularly.  As we've discussed before, the PeakSkierZone has been the only place where skiers of any background and belief system are welcome to fully participate.  So let's not lose that and make sure that Bush, Max, and anyone else feels that they're adding value and providing insight into the world of skiing. 

Face facts, the more controversial the topic or outspoken the forum member, the more interesting the threads and the richer the content.  Let this forum blossom as a place where all are welcome.  I believe we can self-moderate as well as TGR.

midwif

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2013, 08:56:41 pm »
HA

If someone starts a thread titled " Highangles is a dip-sh*t", is that okay?
By current guidelines, it's not.
Should that be changed?

And just to be clear, I don't think you are ;D


Lynn
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 09:01:25 am by midwif »
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HighAngles

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2013, 05:53:32 pm »
Well obviously if there's no other content other than that comment then I would say no, that's not acceptable since it's just a personal attack with no basis.  But when arguments blow-up over "beliefs" I don't believe that requires clamping down unless there are unjustified personal attacks.  Hopefully we're all big boys (and girls) and we don't need to run crying to mommy. ;)

LivingProof

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2013, 06:14:37 pm »
My thinking is that our website is founded on the principle, and social commitment  of "respect for others". I give Jim a lot of credit for both "talking the talk"  and for "walking the walk". We are trying to be a band of friends. A few months ago, the mods were very proud that there were few interventions, as they are  something we (the mods) wish never had to happen. Recently, things have changed.

Honestly, most of the issues, and almost all of the interventions by the mods, have center about PMTS related issues. I understand how Josh feels about being told that his skiing does not conform to certain movement patterns. I understand how a L3 PSIA instuctor reacts about being told that his organization/personal knowledge is incorrect. I also understand Harb's challenges to the PSIA community (and agree with most of what he states). I understand how the PMTS community feels the need to speak about ineffective PSIA instruction.

In our world, some see issues as "black and white", i.e. It's either right or wrong. Others see the world in "different shades of grey", which is to say, they see both sides. If you have been trained in "Myers Briggs", you know the concepts of Judgemental of Perceiving. I live in the grey scale world and tend to see both sides. The differences, between the two groups basic thinking, is known to be a major source of distention. It's not as simple as "right and wrong", both sides have truth.

So, I do not favor a war zone. State your beliefs, that's fine by me. Differences exist. But at 2 a.m. when I can't sleep and thing about all the issues in my life, how I turn my skis is not one of them.



midwif

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2013, 06:29:33 pm »
Well obviously if there's no other content other than that comment then I would say no, that's not acceptable since it's just a personal attack with no basis.  But when arguments blow-up over "beliefs" I don't believe that requires clamping down unless there are unjustified personal attacks.  Hopefully we're all big boys (and girls) and we don't need to run crying to mommy. ;)

Original post lost while LP posting!

Substitute another regular forum poster with HA and change "dipsh*t" to SUCKS and you have the idea of what was deleted.
Along with the preceding post with a link to another very public site inviting MA of a skier "he hates".

What happens elsewhere is not the concern of this forum.

What is written here is.
The pathway for continued particpation was pretty simple and probably not the least bit difficult for anyone on this board.


This thread was started by me in a genuine quest for the feelings of the board.

What I take away is this:

Less moderation, but not, NO MODERATION.

Thank you for your honest feedback.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 07:18:46 pm by midwif »
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midwif

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2013, 06:35:51 pm »
My thinking is that our website is founded on the principle, and social commitment  of "respect for others". I give Jim a lot of credit for both "talking the talk"  and for "walking the walk". We are trying to be a band of friends. A few months ago, the mods were very proud that there were few interventions, as they are  something we (the mods) wish never had to happen. Recently, things have changed.

Honestly, most of the issues, and almost all of the interventions by the mods, have center about PMTS related issues. I understand how Josh feels about being told that his skiing does not conform to certain movement patterns. I understand how a L3 PSIA instuctor reacts about being told that his organization/personal knowledge is incorrect. I also understand Harb's challenges to the PSIA community (and agree with most of what he states). I understand how the PMTS community feels the need to speak about ineffective PSIA instruction.

In our world, some see issues as "black and white", i.e. It's either right or wrong. Others see the world in "different shades of grey", which is to say, they see both sides. If you have been trained in "Myers Briggs", you know the concepts of Judgemental of Perceiving. I live in the grey scale world and tend to see both sides. The differences, between the two groups basic thinking, is known to be a major source of distention. It's not as simple as "right and wrong", both sides have truth.

So, I do not favor a war zone. State your beliefs, that's fine by me. Differences exist. But at 2 a.m. when I can't sleep and thing about all the issues in my life, how I turn my skis is not one of them.

Mike, I am with you.
We have to acknowledge our leanings, but acknowledge that there is no black or white.
No War Zone.
The Neutral Zone continues without it's opposite.

PS.
WHAT! skiing doesn't keep you up in the middle of the night?
Seriously, I am sometimes surprised at what loop of thought gets caught up in the noggin at weird hours.
L.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 09:07:03 pm by midwif »
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jbotti

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2013, 10:02:59 pm »

 I understand how Josh feels about being told that his skiing does not conform to certain movement patterns. 



Wow, reality check!! No one ever said a word about Josh's skiing until he without solicitation attacked and critiqued several forum members skiing and he did it pretty consistently after being warned about numerous times. He should feel fine about having his skiing critiqued without solicitation, because that is what he always did.

Your comment above belongs in the "Are you Serious" or "Come on man" section!

jim-ratliff

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2013, 12:45:20 am »
John (and anyone else):
I would like your thoughts on which post in the "Slowly, One Small Mountain at a Time' thread sent the thread off the tracks.
I feel it is prior to Reply #43 when Todd tries to moderate, suggesting that everyone calm down.
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epic

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2013, 05:02:15 am »
FWIW - after posts #10 and #11, I'm thinking everyone had to know where that thread was going. The last paragraph in 10 didn't need to be there. But then I'd say #38 is what's going to really light the match. Everyone was keeping it to a low smolder up to there.

Liam

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2013, 05:09:41 am »
JIm,

I just re-read the entire thread...honestly, nothing Bush said (or anyone else) was out of line.  Todd's intervention was wholly unnecessary as Jbotti and 'Bush were more than capable of handling themselves. 

It comes down to this: Bush, correctly, detects the ongoing sneer in every PMTS thread at a a style of instruction he has dedicated 10 years to as a full time instructor (and is now at the Examiner level, above level 3) at a significant resort.  He has, even in the thread in question, said PMTS effectively teaches important ski moves--but chafes at the idea of everything else and every other approach is destructive to acquiring good ski technique.

Yes, he thinks of himself as a high-end instructor and skier--and there is plenty of evidence he is both of those things and he quickly (perhaps too quickly) reacts to any insinuation that he is not one of those two things.  Yep, he feels his ideas should be regarded as highly as Harb's best students (if not also Harb himself)...HuBristic??  Yes!  Completely unfounded??  Not so sure.  'Bush is critical, and egotistical about a lot of things (even towards PSIA....check out his old thread on Epic when he didn't pass his first attempt at Level 3 at Snowbird...)-but, he adds a lot and his banning here pushes this forum one step closer to being the 'soft mouthpiece' for PMTS many feel it already is.

I never had any problem of shrugging off 'Bush's excessive comments as the ramblings of a youngster who will eventually mature...and I have always found his style better than the dismissive passive aggressive (but civil!) postings of others.


Going skiing,

Liam

jim-ratliff

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2013, 09:04:32 am »
Liam: Good response.

Everyone: Since one of the recurring themes in this thread is a perception of "over moderation", I have restored the deleted posts in that thread ("One Small Mountain at a Time").

For a short time this am, I restored the post that resulted in BW being on a timeout until we had a chance to mull our response over.
Lynn strongly thought it should  not be brought back to light.

This discussion is not about Bushwacka, it is  aimed at  helping the moderators to understand what the community feels is responsible posting, so give us your thoughts.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 04:17:58 pm by jim-ratliff »
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jim-ratliff

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2013, 04:30:36 pm »
FWIW - after posts #10 and #11, I'm thinking everyone had to know where that thread was going. The last paragraph in 10 didn't need to be there. But then I'd say #38 is what's going to really light the match. Everyone was keeping it to a low smolder up to there.
Sorry, i missed your post this morning.
Sooo, as a member,  are replies 38-43 (as they are currently numbered) two grownups having a heated conversation that is acceptable, or out of bounds?
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LivingProof

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2013, 07:31:12 am »
Wow, reality check!! No one ever said a word about Josh's skiing until he without solicitation attacked and critiqued several forum members skiing and he did it pretty consistently after being warned about numerous times. He should feel fine about having his skiing critiqued without solicitation, because that is what he always did.

Your comment above belongs in the "Are you Serious" or "Come on man" section!

John,

I think you cherry picked one line and read something into it that was never intended. There is nothing in my writing that justifies Bush's actions. Read the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of Liams post 27, as I think he captured, better, how a PSIA L3 might think about the attacks of his ski teaching.

In any case:
6 years ago, I returned to skiing and during a trip to Utah, I remember laying on the snow, exhaused and bruised, thinking that I had to relearn sking following a 10 year break. That's how I came to both Epic and the PMTS forum. From Harald Harb, I have learned a great deal about ski technique. The man is marvel about breaking down skiing into movements. I played in the technique forums in both Epic and PMTS, but, have long lost my passion for posting about technique in those forums. A lifelong golfer, I've always been fascinated with technique, that carried over into skiing. Today, this pedestrian skier commits to disengage from all discussion about technique in our forum. I'll listen to what accomplished skiers have to say. I'll admire those who can do what I can't on skis. Maybe I'll ask some questions about different techniques just to learn or offer some thoughts to a novice, but, it's not worth risking friendships about how skis are turned. Bottom line, it's about enjoying myself and the great people I get to ski with on the mountain.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 07:33:12 am by LivingProof »

Gary

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2013, 11:01:40 am »
I've skied with you Mike...you're more than a pedestrian skier!

Looking forward to making turns with ya in 31/2 weeks. g

Svend

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2013, 07:48:16 am »
Pedestrian? Er...Mike, I hate to say this, but you're really not supposed to walk with your skis on.  Except across the parking lot back to your car.  Keeps the salt and grit off your shiny boots.


Svend

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2013, 08:46:20 am »
On a more serious note, I have little time to post my thoughts on the "War Zone" question or posting etiquette or BW's recent ousting.  But perhaps some quick comments before this thread grows cold:

I am quite dismayed that the war zone idea was even considered in the first place, and seriously enough that it was actually posited openly on the forum.  It goes completely counter to everything I have previously read here from the moderators and the majority of other members who have expressed their beliefs in mature, civil and respectful exchange.  Why even suggest it? It's an absolutely absurd idea.  It makes it seem like there is an underlying desire from one or more members to vent some unresolved issues, whatever they may be, and "have at it".

On that note, there seem to be a minority of members here that appear willing to drop the gloves and mix it up from time to time, and it's often around PMTS vs. the others.  To be honest, this is getting very tiresome.  Hardly a day goes by or a single thread evolves, without some mention of HH or PMTS.  If it wasn't for the recent contributions (ie. past 12 months) of others who offer a counterpoint and different outlook, and who are contributing here with excellent, well-written posts, I would have deleted my account long ago.  Don't misunderstand, I have nothing against HH or PMTS, and don't intend this as a criticism of either.  I have no other soapbox to stand on, and never get involved in technique discussions or punting another teaching method.  However, there have been times in past when this forum has had a very singular focus, and those who did not share that doctrine were either actively criticized or simply ignored and politely disregarded.

As for the ousting of Josh, I learned of what he had done, and find that kind of action inexcusable for a forum such as this, and in no way do I condone it.  However, there was at least one post in the "One Mountain" thread that I found very confrontational and was a direct attack on Josh.  I consider that as lowering oneself to the same level as Josh (well, perhaps not quite as low, as his subsequent actions showed).  But in such an argument, if one person says or does something low and underhanded, does that mean the other has justification to lower their own standards of behaviour and hit below the belt too? Not in my eyes.

Furthermore, I have been at times very uncomfortable with the way Josh was treated here over the past year.  His character flaws and shortcomings were openly discussed between members, often without his input or rebuttal.  And he received several unprovoked, if subtle, put-downs and jabs about his character that would never have been allowed had they been directed at another member here.  Directed at Josh, however, they were allowed to pass without comment or other sanction.  And, further to my dismay, several of those came from at least one of the moderators.  It makes it seem like there was a double standard here.

OTOH, as I mentioned before, I do respect that the moderators gave BW a voice here and a platform by which to contribute, where other forums had closed the door on him.  I detected active and also subtle coaching and patient mentoring to make him a valued contributor.  The fact that they would have been willing to take him back had he offered an apology, speaks volumes for the leniency and open-mindedness of the moderators here.

So, I am of two minds on that issue, and I hope that it doesn't appear that I contradicted myself.  I could go on, but I simply have no time at present. 

I hope my words on these topics are considered objectively and without prejudice.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 08:49:57 am by Svend »

jim-ratliff

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Pedestrian Skiing
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2013, 08:48:45 am »
Quote from: Jimr
Svend: My apologies for posting this frivolity after your well thought-out post above. 
Svend:  This must be a language problem with you "northerners".  A "pedestrian skier" is someone who skis on sidewalks and streets and shopping malls, places frequented by pedestrians.  The name came into existence due to the number of pedestrians that such skiers would run over -- because pedestrians didn't realize that skiers had the right of way. 

Historically, that was the reason behind the creation of early ski resorts, to give skiers a place to get away from the pedestrians. 
You still see pedestrians hiking on the hill sometimes (especially at Beaver Creek, it seems), but those pedestrians have at least learned that skiers have the right away.
Only the historical faithful still do pedestrian skiing, oftentimes in college towns where aficionados are "cross country" skiing to school.  Note that the term "pedestrian" has fallen into disuse as modern terms like 'cross country' have become more popular.   :-*
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 09:18:56 am by jim-ratliff »
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Svend

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2013, 08:52:19 am »
ROTFL -- good one Jim! Well put.  But where does Mike fit into that description?  ;D

Svend

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Re: Pedestrian Skiing
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2013, 09:11:04 am »
Jim, it's never the wrong time to have some fun.  Well taken. 

Cheers!


jim-ratliff

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2013, 09:13:02 am »
ROTFL -- good one Jim! Well put.  But where does Mike fit into that description?  ;D
I'm not sure?  He mentions laying in the snow battered and bruised, maybe the guy he hit was bigger than him?


More seriously, thanks for your thoughts.  Feel free to PM us (or just "report" the posts) you alluded to regarding moderators tone.  As with everything, there is always room to learn.
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Svend

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2013, 09:35:26 am »
Thanks Jim, I appreciate your openness.  I think that's all for now -- I am out of town on business the rest of the week, so fully occupied.  I may get in touch on the weekend.

All the best...

Gary

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2013, 09:44:32 am »
Well said Svend....

Really....I can't add anything to your well stated comments.

Here's hoping the level of civility and decorum remains.

G

ToddW

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2013, 12:27:51 pm »
Svend,

Quote
However, there have been times in past when this forum has had a very singular focus, and those who did not share that doctrine were either actively criticized or simply ignored and politely disregarded.

The pendulum swings  back and forth.  When I first joined this forum, I was set upon by two then-active members when they discovered I had studied PMTS.  It was then a small minority interest on this forum.  (They were relentless enough that I almost left.  Instead I read threads that interested me and ignored the rest, baiting and all.)  Over the past 18 months, the situation has flipped ... and will no doubt flip flop again.  It's just the way of the internet.  You can help accelerate the change by introducing some of your Canadian skiing buddies to the forum just as Liam got a few Berkshire East guys to sign up.

Ski technique has always been a contentious and divisive issue.  It's been said that if you have 5 ski instructors seated at a table, there are at least six technical opinions around the table ... and all of them are "right."  'course we all know know they're wrong 'cause I'm the one who's got it right  ;D

Edit: typed too fast; omitted 'at least' so made no sense

« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 07:34:32 am by ToddW »

LivingProof

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2013, 03:12:10 pm »
Pedestrian? Er...Mike, I hate to say this, but you're really not supposed to walk with your skis on.  Except across the parking lot back to your car.  Keeps the salt and grit off your shiny boots.

All,

The term "pedestrian" pays homage to Helluvaskier. Sometime in the past, he was touting race skis, and, called all others "pedestrian" skis. I though that was really funny and posted back stating:

"Pedestrian Skis ????"

We're all pedestrian skiers compared to Helluva. IMHO!

HeluvaSkier

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2013, 04:47:04 pm »
Here is the original quote:

"PEDESTRIAN SKIS"  :o :o
All-Mountain: A common descriptive term for boots or skis that are designed to perform equally poorly under a variety of conditions and over many different types of terrain.

jim-ratliff

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2013, 05:05:06 pm »
Actually I think of Helluva as a tree skier par excellence. I've never seen anyone (not even Bush) fly into the trees the way he does.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 05:07:24 pm by jim-ratliff »
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midwif

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2013, 07:15:49 pm »
See, it IS the content of a forum(s) that is the inherent value.

Heluva's spectacular release, the Fischer Babe's finale,  the "neverending story" re ancient history elsewhere chronicled.

Nothing pedestrian about Svend and Todd's memory banks either.

None of these ever seem to disappear once in the public domain.

Sometime it works for you and sometimes it doesn't. :D


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jbotti

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2013, 11:15:20 pm »
As for the ousting of Josh, I learned of what he had done, and find that kind of action inexcusable for a forum such as this, and in no way do I condone it.  However, there was at least one post in the "One Mountain" thread that I found very confrontational and was a direct attack on Josh.  I consider that as lowering oneself to the same level as Josh (well, perhaps not quite as low, as his subsequent actions showed).  But in such an argument, if one person says or does something low and underhanded, does that mean the other has justification to lower their own standards of behaviour and hit below the belt too? Not in my eyes.


I never asked for Bush to be banned and I was aksed that question. Bring him back. I am happy to leave.

midwif

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2013, 08:36:52 am »
I never asked for Bush to be banned and I was aksed that question. Bring him back. I am happy to leave.

There have been many confrontational posts on this forum from a variety of posters.
They have mostly been kept.
Many, I have found distasteful, but as stated elsewhere, most of you are can handle yourselves.

Personally, I wanted to try and keep this place ban-free, but found it impossible to adhere to that goal and
and also prevent maliciousness from being allowed to flourish on the site.

L.
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jim-ratliff

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Re: Should there be a "WAR Zone"?
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2013, 09:22:23 am »
Just to be clear, I wouldn't ask a member if she/he would like someone to be blocked (so if John is referring to me above, I messed up), and I doubt that I would respond positively in the unlikely event that someone made such a request.

I believe this to be purely the domain of the Moderators, this is not a democracy at that point in time, and there was never any doubt in my mind that Bushwacka's actions merited our response.

Obviously, we have involved ourselves publicly and privately in conversations, including suggesting to people that it might be time to just walk away from a topic (something difficult for any of us to do).  In fact, I even remember publicly complimenting Bushwacka once for not responding to JBotti baiting him.

However, each of us ultimately chooses where, when and under what conditions we want to participate, INCLUDING ME.  For Bush to say "Here's the way it's going to be if you want me back" triggers the reaction that "I don't want anyone to participate" but I do "want everyone to feel welcome to participate".  But no individuals participation is important enough to ignore the guidelines even if their initials were HH or BB or even LCS. For John to imply that he wouldn't participate if Bush were allowed to return, that's a decision that each of us makes as situations change.


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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 03:03:23 pm by jim-ratliff »
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