Skis and Gear Discussion > Gear Garage

Footbeds for teenagers; forefoot pain

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epic:
If the trim to fits are not trimmed (enough) to fit they'll curl up on the sides and you'll be able to see that when you pull them out.

Re: posting - I'm not for blanket demonizing of posting it has it's place. I've had a lot of footbeds and the set I am on now is posted and I do ski better n them. They are not what I would call rigid however. Not like some Corks I have had. If you want to know more about posting, you could try "Ask the Bootfitters" on EpicSki and hear from some actual bootfitters. I'm not a bootfitter and I'm not saying your daughter should be posted, just that you don't have to put up the shields any time you hear a bootfitter say the word "post" or a variation of it.

midwif:
Svend
None of the Pmts ers on the forum have come out and said it, but........
HH has advocated for non rigid footbeds since the get go..

Being able to use the ankle in the boot to initiate the turn, rather than the knee, is the
basis of the "kinetic" chain in his pedagogy.

My personal experience with cork custom footbeds was pretty bad.
Pain, cramps and foot fatigue.Oh, and a really bad wedge problem, but that's a whole 'nother story.

The bootfitter in Banff with WC clients sounds like she has the same belief as HH in how the foot/ankle need to be able to work in the boot.

Happy New Year!

Svend:
Lynn, Epic, perhaps I was a bit hasty in my comments. I did not intend to state that I was rejecting posted footbeds outright for all individuals.  I simply don't know enough about the different designs to understand if they are all rigid or not, and if these are indeed appropriate for certain people and their particular conditions.  My limited experience with these comes from looking at examples in ski shops, and from what my chiropractor once tried to sell me as a custom orthotic to deal with plantar fascitis -- a device that seemed to be made of fibreglass resin and was rock hard....no way was I going to put those in my sneakers.

However, it just made sense when I read Dan's comments on rigid beds causing foot pain in the context of my daughter, as the insertion of the more rigid beds (having a solid and high arch support and flat hard bottom surface) in her boots coincided with the beginnings of her problems.  I was savvy to the extra thickness being a possible problem, but the rigid nature of the bed did not occur to me as being a possible issue, until Dan's mention.

As a timeline on this, I put the new beds in just before our Banff trip in March, and by Day 4 or 5 she started complaining of swelling and pain under her metatarsals.  After we got home from that trip, she did not ski again until last week, again with the new beds in.  Upon consideration of the timing of all this, I connected the two and put the old, thinner, lower arch, more flexible Volcanos in.  She has skied three days with these since last Friday, and with progressively less pain and swelling. 

BTW, Epic, I did check the beds for curling around the sides, and did trim some material off in March when this first started.  They sat flat in the liners after that.  The old Volcanos are well-trimmed.

There are several things I now need to do:

- consult with a good bootfitter re. an appropriate footbed for her foot morphology and problem condition.  Hopefully the guy at the shop where we bought them will answer.

- have her boots punched out in the toe area to allow her some extra room there and eliminate any compression

- have her examined by a podiatrist to ensure there is no underlying exacerbating condition behind this

The principle behind allowing the foot some movement makes sense to me, but then again so does the principle of supporting the arches and holding the heel in place.  So if I can find a solution that gives the support she needs to prevent her foot from moving too much and/or collapsing, while still allowing it some movement to flex and take up stresses induced by ankle and lower leg movement, then we might be on the right track here.  Completely locking the foot in place seems all wrong, though, as any movement of the lower leg and ankle inevitably ends up being transmitted to the foot via ligaments and joints.  If the foot can't move correspondingly to take up those stresses, then that seems a recipe for trouble.  So thanks for sharing your experience with cork beds -  now I know what to avoid. 

dan.boisvert:

--- Quote from: Svend on January 01, 2013, 05:45:04 pm ---With regard to more flexible footbeds, do you have any experience with a specific brand? Are they simple off the shelf ones like the Conformable Volcano or Superfeet? Or are they custom? I have recently seen some interesting semi-custom heat moldable ones - Footbalance and A-Line come to mind.

--- End quote ---

I don't think the rigidity of the new footbeds caused your daughter's foot pain.  From what you've said, her pain is in an entirely different category than what I experienced and would expect if the rigidity was the cause.  I think it's mostly a volume thing.  The foot had less room to spread with the new footbed and nowhere to go, so the soft stuff got inflamed.

The kind of pain I'm talking about from rigid foot beds and flexible feet can be a couple things, but I'd look more for a cramping along the entire bottom of the foot, or excruciating arch pain--it feels like the footbed is trying to force out the "keystone" in the arch in your foot, and it hurts like hell, because you're bearing lots of weight pressing upward directly into the center of the arch, instead of through it in the strong direction.  It can also screw up your alignment something fierce, because your arch flattens, hits the footbed, and then the entire ski goes with it before your foot is in a load-bearing position.  You pretty much can't put any weight on your foot without the edge getting engaged hard.  It's a great combination of both painful and terrifying.

I'm also not against some forms of posting for people whose feet are inflexible and require more support.  The big thing I'm opposed to is the rigid footbeds that are so incredibly common.


The flexible footbeds I'd recommend would be custom made by a really good fitter.  I'm not sure which processes various ones use.  I know HH has his method, and my fitter found a new plastic last year he was really excited about.  The woman in Banff probably has her own preferred product, too.  I think the fitter you see is way more important than the specific product they use for something like this.  Just as there are a bunch of brands for rigid footbeds, there are a bunch that can be used to make flexible ones, too.

That said, I'm one of the rare ones who wouldn't be well-served by a custom footbed, so I use one of the thin black Superfeet cut-to-fit ones, which works great for me.  As my fitter put it, "for feet like yours, the boot board IS the footbed..".  ;D

Svend:

--- Quote from: dan.boisvert on January 01, 2013, 08:29:59 pm ---I don't think the rigidity of the new footbeds caused your daughter's foot pain.  From what you've said, her pain is in an entirely different category than what I experienced and would expect if the rigidity was the cause.  I think it's mostly a volume thing.  The foot had less room to spread with the new footbed and nowhere to go, so the soft stuff got inflamed.

--- End quote ---

OK - got it.  Thanks for clarifying that.  I'll ask her if she has pain anywhere else, but she hasn't mentioned it until now.  You know how kids are -- they are mute until you actually ask a direct question. 

Bottom line, the new footbeds seem to be the direct cause of the problem, along with a too-narrow toe box.  Sort both of those out, and we should be good.

BTW, I'm pleased to hear someone here admit to using a Superfeet insole.  I've been reluctant to confess to the same (just a different brand) for fear of being pounced on for not being serious about my gear.  Custom beds seem to be gospel to almost everyone.  But I have what appear to be very average, normal feet, which fit into many boots almost perfectly without much modification needed, and seem well-served by non-custom cut-to-fit insoles. 

Finding a good custom bed for my daughter, if that ends up being needed, may take some calling around.  I have yet to be in a shop that sells any custom ones other than the hard plastic posted type.  I have shied away from these for my personal use, and for my kids, because some logic in the back of my mind must have told me that they were overkill and not really going to make us ski THAT much better.  I have paid way more attention to proper snug boot fit and trying to get that right (although I am still learning the nuances of that), as well as lateral alignment, fore-aft stance, and flex adjustment.  Seems to me that these factors play a much bigger role in skiing performance, at least for recreational needs, than locking the foot in a custom bed.

Some good dialog here -- thanks very much, Dan.  This has been very helpful.

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