Author Topic: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.  (Read 3681 times)

Gary

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2012, 08:04:26 am »
Hey Pat....Greg is spot on..

Can you make the trip Feb 3, 4 and 5th? It's always a great time, great group of guys too. Greg always seems to be able guarantee we get the best snow too...not sure how he does that. I think it's because he shows up at the mountain with 6 pairs of skis and there's no snow god in this solar system that would dissapoint such a dedicated man.

Truly, it's a blast. We'd love to have you join the gang.

Best, g

patprof

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2012, 09:01:31 am »
Greg/Gary,
    Well.........Feb. 3rd is my birthday. Doesn't seem possible-but I'll be 73. Man, that's a big number :) :) :). Keep me informed as that date gets closer.
Pat
"I can't dance, and I can't fly-but sometimes when I ski I can do both!"

jim-ratliff

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2012, 09:10:33 am »
Speaking of Birthdays, Helluva's was back on Dec. 10th.
Happy 30th Greg.
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Gary

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2012, 09:23:50 am »
Happy belated B day Greg...

OK Pat...what better way to spend your birtday than with a bunch of fun loving passionate skiers!!!! AND if you're still having fun making turns....it's just a number!

I was skiing in the bowls of Sunshine with a 70 plus year old gentleman, me being 63 and his stamina on the steeps was quite impressive. So we get out there and celebrate every turn we make...and only remember the real good ones!  ;)

HOW perfect is that, skiing on your birthday...heck...I'll even get a birthday cake....Ok....will keep you posted. If you send me your email address, I'll send you reminders.

G


HeluvaSkier

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2012, 12:49:27 pm »
Thanks for the B-day wishes! I was worried about turning 30, but I like to think I'm just getting better with age... like a good wine.  :P
All-Mountain: A common descriptive term for boots or skis that are designed to perform equally poorly under a variety of conditions and over many different types of terrain.

Gary

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2012, 01:16:43 pm »
Hey Greg....It was always the decade years that bugged me....still....if we're still skiing well..

It's all good!

We'll have a birthday beer when we get together in Feb..or a tearful wine... ???

AND yes....getting better with age....indeed!  :D  g

jim-ratliff

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2012, 02:41:32 pm »
Thanks for the B-day wishes! I was worried about turning 30, but I like to think I'm just getting better with age... like a good wine.  :P
Worry about turning 60, 30's a piece of cake.

However you may want to try and limit the frequency of your patented "heluva Release".
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

HeluvaSkier

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2012, 03:17:40 pm »
However you may want to try and limit the frequency of your patented "heluva Release".

Those hurt like hell at 25... I had another one at 28 which was worse. I'm not planning such foolishness for this season.
All-Mountain: A common descriptive term for boots or skis that are designed to perform equally poorly under a variety of conditions and over many different types of terrain.

ToddW

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2012, 08:20:39 pm »
Greg,

Belated birthday wishes.  The big 3 0 is the beginning of a great decade. Enjoy it to its fullest.

LivingProof

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2013, 08:27:18 am »
Now that Heluva's birthday is over, let me return to the topic of the OP. When I first opened the thread, I had not skied and was doing dryland drills. In the 4 days on snow, I've been spending much time working fore-aft balance, and, wanted to share some thoughts.

When talking about balance I say that you should feel the whole of your foot on the floor of the boot and be able to feel your weight move from front to back of your foot during different parts of the  turn. I think that people often fall into the trap of standing on their toes in an effort to get forward. Really get forward means don't get back.


I've used Epic's suggestion of feeling the whole foot while skiing. I do a small translation and think about skiing with all my weight on the arch of the foot and make runs just concentrating on maintaining feeling this pressure. It's effective as a means of getting out of backseat habits. I do find that to stay in this position, I need to leave it and get forward at the start of a turn, but, the consensus seems to be that being forward in the upper part of the turn is needed. I do like the concept as a positive, achievable thought. It may not present the whole picture of what we need to progress, but, it is a step forward for those standing on our heels.

I found that staying on the arches, then, just thinking about rolling off the stance foot, through neutral, then back in edged positions created some pretty good skiing.

I also do, or attempt, the drill Liam introduced - Flappers. I don't have the strength to pull the rear portion of the skis off the snow, but, activating the chain of muscles required in the attempt is a great way to get forward.

Still, it's so easy to slip back into old habits. Will this damn January thaw end, first decent day to ski looks like Wednesday.

ToddW

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2013, 12:02:07 pm »
LP,

With all of your cycling, you should have no difficulty with levering up the tails in flappers.  If the problem persists with your new boots, look to see if you're tightening some extra muscle as part of the effort and learn how to relax it.  Try going all loose/limp at a standstill and contract your hams and nothing else to drive the heels back.   Gotta run -- 2 hours left to ski.

Svend

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2013, 07:44:56 pm »
Mike, just curious...have you spent much time playing with forward lean in your boots, or ramp angle changes such as heel lifts or toe shims? I browsed through this thread, but didn't find a mention of it. 

I'm no PhD of ski technique, but it seems to me that getting the hardware sorted out would be a good thing to do before you start working on technique stuff to correct a perceived problem.  In my mind, having gear that is adjusted/tuned/tweaked so that it does it's job well, is like money in the bank.  Then the gear simply fades into the background and lets you just ski.  Any work on technique then focuses purely on your skill, and is then no longer an adaptation for boots or skis that are not set up correctly.  Let's face it, if something is not set up right, then your technique must change to adapt to it, which is counterproductive.

Stop me if I'm preaching to the converted here.... ;)

As an example, in the context of fore-aft balance, I struggled for much of last season to get dialed in to my Progressor 9's, which I had bought midway through the 2010/11 season.  I also had a new(ish) pair of boots too, and it seemed as if I could never find the sweet spot on these skis, whereas with my old Lange boots I had no such problems.  I started playing with forward lean and ramp angle, as well as binding position, and ended the season feeling OK, but still not fully satisfied that I was where I needed to be.  Well, a couple of weeks ago, at the start of this season, and determined to get this right, I started again -- moved bindings forward; no-go, so moved them back again (this is a bit of work for bindings on a plate).  Then in frustration I jammed the forward lean shims all the way down to get the max lean, and "Hey! Presto!", suddenly there I was....I could do no wrong on those skis.  I now feel perfectly centered, and the sweet spot of the ski feels huge.  (just don't ask me if I'm in a back seat skier....I have no idea, but others tell me that I'm not of that ilk)

So, my point is, maybe you shouldn't beat yourself up over technique.  Maybe it IS the gear.   ;)   Well worth fussing over the small stuff.   I hope this makes sense....

BTW, I'm really curious to see if your new boots will change your perception of your fore-aft balance.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if you notice a significant change, brought about by different ramp angle or fwd. lean.  Do post back here about this....

« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 07:51:48 pm by Svend »

HeluvaSkier

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2013, 11:18:51 pm »
The first step in fore/aft balance isn't in the gear. When you are to the point where gear is a consideration in fore/aft management, you'll be at the level where you won't have to ask... you'll know. I only know two skiers other than myself who are able to identify this... one is Harald and the other is a FIS coach who I collaborate with. There may be one other, but he and I have not discussed his setup in that level of detail.

Harald's sensitivity to fore/aft balance is incredible. I had never met a skier who described fore/aft balance in a way I could relate to until I met Harald. If you reach that level you won't have to post about it on the internet.
All-Mountain: A common descriptive term for boots or skis that are designed to perform equally poorly under a variety of conditions and over many different types of terrain.

epic

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2013, 04:37:28 am »
The first step in fore/aft balance isn't in the gear. When you are to the point where gear is a consideration in fore/aft management, you'll be at the level where you won't have to ask... you'll know. I only know two skiers other than myself who are able to identify this... one is Harald and the other is a FIS coach who I collaborate with. There may be one other, but he and I have not discussed his setup in that level of detail.

Harald's sensitivity to fore/aft balance is incredible. I had never met a skier who described fore/aft balance in a way I could relate to until I met Harald. If you reach that level you won't have to post about it on the internet.

Please... it can't possibly be that rare. It's not like we are looking for Jedi masters here.

byronm

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Re: Fore Aft Balance and how to get there.
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2013, 06:39:26 am »
 Ok....so put this squarely in the FWIW category from a novice to modern skiing who ugglies his way down the hill sans much technique and equipment savvy.
 
With that said, I have to disagree on merit with the notion that discussing equipment set up is moot in terms of achieving a desired result. How many of us will really attain the level of understanding and technique of an HH and thus not need to ask about it....or even fudge the learning/performance curve when and if possible? 
 
In most sports involving "tools", while the end result may be altered or mitigated largely by "technique" to a positive outcome, the athlete,  equipment nomenclature  and environment will always be variable factors in the paradigm. While set up may not be the be all end all to reaching "some" performance bench marks, nonetheless, still a factor.
 
Golf, different tools, a different series of motions and outcomes, yet involving the same elements of interfacing equipment and motion. Change the shaft of a club by a few grams, change the flex pattern, perhaps the loft and "to hit the identical shot" you were hitting prior to the change, your technique WILL change, perhaps very subtle, but it has to.
 
Similarly, equipment set up can make it either (sometimes significantly so) difficult or easier to hit a particular shot. If someone aspiring to learn to turn the ball over handed a pro his thick soled game improvement club with a senior flex shaft, could the pro hit the shot? Sure he could....and then he would hand the club back in favor of "his" stick, likely much more conducive to working the ball and likely "tweeked" through experimentation and tinkering to fit his particular body mechanics and swing style.
 
I suspect the same is true with mountain or road biking equipment and/or set ups. While I know little about that sport, I would offer that even with a $5000 bike you could lift with two fingers, position of the seat, frame style, handlebars, gear ratios, peddles, etc. all impact "how" you might ride and how easy or difficult it might be to reach a performance benchmark regardless of how fast you spin.
 
Wouldn't the same hold true for fore/aft balance in terms of physical attributes, style and equipment set up? I "get" the notion that in general, a traditional equipment set up is sufficient to enable fore/aft balance given proper technique. But I would also opine that Sir Isaac and Svend are exactly right in that for every action there is a reaction. Whether more or less impacted by equipment or technique. Again, certainly worthy of pontification.
 
And...with so many variables, does one size fit all?
 
just my .02.....
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 08:02:46 am by byronm »