Slowly, One Small Mountain at a Time!

[LivingProof]

Now her PMTS instructors are teaching her to angulate/counter at the spine. instead of at the hip joint. I could easily fix it.

Right is right whether or not people like you or not. Just watch House

Josh,

For the record, Harald has written extensively about the need to flex at the hip sockets, and, the need to keep hips more level in turns. Heck, he wrote the modern book on counterbalance and counteracting movements. Look at John Botti's avatar and the hip position is far different, John has written it has taken him years to build that movement into his skiing. Never confuse what PMTS teaches with how a PMTS advocate actually skis.

 As are not a student, you do make incorrect assumptions.  We recreational skiers all speak a far higher level of competence than we can demonstrate on the hill. Helluva tells me that each time we ski together.

[jim-ratliff]

dont care Jbotti.

she was taught wrong I bet I just listed one if not many reason why she was taught wrong.

Now her PMTS instructors are teaching her to angulate/counter at the spine. instead of at the hip joint. I could easily fix it.

Right is right whether or not people like you or not. Just watch House

Josh: That is a pretty big leap, to look at ONE picture (the Avatar) and arrive at the conclusion that she "was taught wrong"?  You are right in your analysis of the picture, and Lynn acknowledged that a year ago when you noted it. 
The conclusion that she was taught to angulate at the spine, however, is wrong.

[midwif]

first you were most likely taught wrong. yes, we both agree on that.
 
Did the instructor say push your heels out? or spread your feet out? or make a bigger wedg? or press your toe to turn? if so they have not a clue what they are talking about. who remembers anymore. it was 20 years ago.
subsequent lessons at different ski areas didn't help much either these are all movements that are dead end bull **** movement patterns. they are not PSIA's paradigm. i am sorry you had such shitty instruction and getting a L3 doesnt promise anything better. since we can do our own thing some do their own shitty thing, we have a couple here at stowe trust me.

the wedge I use is only used to stabilize people its made by rotating your toes together. and not spread your feet any wider than how you naturally stand.

Once a skier is

balanced in a for and aft plane.
has separation at the hip socket(which you dont even have Midwif) your assessment is correct; your assumption that I was taught that error is not. That is my own lack of technique in the avatar. 
is tipping their inside ski
and balanced on their outside ski(stance ski)

the wedge will be nearly impossible to hold and literally just goes away. It happened today with my 2 never ever in an hour and half.

and yes we need people to have fun. skiing is fun. Not skiing is not fun!  PMTS wouldnt be viewed as fun to most people. So you losing that battle right there. The DVD were the most boring skiing DVD i have ever watched.
disagree. but my attention span may be different than yours

PMTS Bet

If I can prove that this all works IE I have mostly matched turns by the end of a 2 hour beginner lesson. You have to come to stowe so I can teach you to CA/CB better than any of your PMTS instructors I ll do it for free. You just have to post up on the PMTS,epicski and here how I did it. You only have to post if I succeed at making a change in your skiing My guess is your way to scared to take up this bet and wont follow though.

Scared has nothing to do with it. You clearly have no idea of who I am. I have given up rising to bait more often. and dislike driving long distances as Jim will tell you.

[midwif]

Bush
Let's remove your ego from this subject for a moment.
I will acknowledge (without even experiencing) your superior teaching skills on hearsay.....yours.

Lets imagine beginning ski instruction where the goal is to teach functional skiing from the get go. Not just some adaptive movements that get people on on the slope wrecking their perfectly good knees.

Where teachers didn't have to go against their better knowledge in order to teach good technique?

I would be perfectly happy to spend some ski time with you one of these days. I'm just letting you age a bit more into a better vintage.

[Liam]

1. To the original point, I think it's cool you guys are working hard to make PMTS more influential.  More power to you.

2. I really like Josh's beginner lesson...can you really get all that done in 1.5 hours with a group???   What can they ski when they are done?

Here's my bigger question, and it's for all the adult learners out there (you guys who skied as kids and came up through race programs are an entity onto yourselves):  Do you really think you learned nothing of value from your earliest levels of instruction??  Clearly, you all stuck with skiing and probably got to explore quite a bit of the mountain?  I find it funny that people resent moving like advanced beginners and low intermediates when they were advanced beginners and low intermediates.  I don't ski they way I did 10 years ago, but I can't say those proto-years had no value as I gained comfort, control and the ability to explore the fun side of the mountain.   If I hadn't been given some tools to take into the off-piste very early on in my skiing, I would have quit.

My own thoughts on the progression:

a. The PSIA Beginning: Hey, you got to get on and off the lift, you got to realize that your feet aren't glued in position and you have to discover there are a lot more fun places to explore on the mountain than the learning groomer.  Foot work is great, but if you can't stop that upper-body over-rotation, squatting and all those upper-body gross balance inhibiting compensations that novices constantly fall back on, you'll never never connect with your feet and ankles.   You need speed control, and you need it to work places other than the flattest of learning groomers.  PSIA, I think, does a fairly admirable job of getting people what they need to get out and ski (all things considered, that people are not always ready to make commitments in gear, time and money).

b. PMTS/CLedenin/Deslaurier/Lito Other name brand camps:  Since no one signs up for these camps until they've become low intermediates it is not surprising that these methods do a great job of moving low intermediates to High intermediates.  After a few years of getting my gross motor movement comfort under control on big hills, I found great benefit in these models (collectively the 'ski with your feet/ankle' models-using modern ski design-sans rocker-to it's fullest...sort of).  And, these guys get a lot of folks to the High Intermediate level-and I've been watching MA videos on the PMTS website for years, those guys who are long time campers have done a good job of becoming advanced intermediates (and that's not a knock, advanced intermediate is pretty good).


c. Expert Skiing......Takes more.   You need all the moves.  Some will argue over the definition of expert skiing, but I think the old PSIA line is fairly tried and true:  All terrain-All Conditions (and that includes modest air ability: 6ft vert in tricky conditions/ 10 ft in good conditions and good landing zones).  And not just surviving all conditions and terrain, but handling it with smoothness and speed control and enjoyment (we all know it when we see it).  A smooth and sure footed run down Paradise and MRG, even in icy conditions or Kinsman's Glade at Cannon when the coverage is questionable is no problem for an expert skier.  I'm not there yet, but I ski regularly with true experts and I'm getting ever closer.  Truth to tell, a private lesson from Josh Matta would probably do a lot for guys in my position.

There is nothing that you should 'throw away' from your learning.  I think the pmts-style instruction is a great addition, it's good folks will be able to incorporate it as they move from low to high intermediates, and it will pay dividends if they ever get beyond that (which few will, of course), as will other things they hopefully learned and continue to learn as they progress.

[midwif]

Liam
I understand the wedge "introductory" rationalization.
And it's place among our "instant gratification" society.
Personally, I would have preferred being taught parallel technique from the start.

And after reading your definition, via psia,of expert skiing, will abstain.
I am 56, but the knees about 68. Too many running miles.

[jim-ratliff]

Here's my bigger question, and it's for all the adult learners out there (you guys who skied as kids and came up through race programs are an entity onto yourselves):  Do you really think you learned nothing of value from your earliest levels of instruction?? 

My story, in part. I started trying to learn to ski in my mid 40's, taking a lesson here and there. In my late 40's struggling at Winter Park, my son finally said to me, "Dad, you may just have to accept that, at your age, you aren't going to get any better!" 
I checked with our Officer Manager's ski patrol husband, who steered me towards Lito Tejada-Flores VCR video series. I was surprised to hear him not only explain what a section was about, but also why.  And it was then that I remembered my frustration at several lessons where ski instructors would say "do this" and not say where it fit into skiing or what my body needed to do to accomplish the drill (I can understand "square your shoulders to the basket and jump straight up when shooting a jump shot".  "Do this" and watching someone shoot a jump shot isn't so helpful when you don't know what you are supposed to see and you don't "see" how you are doing it.)
 Harald Harb was skiing on Lito's videos and was credited with his thought's on how to turn the new shaped skis.  I purchased the first book and was amazed at the understanding of skiing that it provided, not only of what Harald was teaching but also a better understanding of much of the instruction I received from ski schools than they had ever provided.  I'm not saying that they didn't have an understanding, only that they never communicated it to me, and Harald's way was better for my way of learning.


Did I learn anything from the lessons? Yes, I assume so.  Did I see them as part of my progression in skiing? No, I gave up taking lessons because I didn't "feel" as if I was getting anything out of them.
I feel I made more progress in the book and one week PMTS camp that I took at Copper Mountain than the 5 years of so before that (maybe 6 days per year).


Am I a proficient skier?  No, I don't like the way I look on film.  But I can go pretty much anywhere inbounds, enjoy myself, and manage to get back to the base and not get hurt.  And, every now and then, there are truly magical off-piste moments that I just stop skiing and enjoy that I am there.
And most everyone that sees me ski (PMTS instructors, Midwif, Living Proof, Gary, probably even Josh) can see plenty that I need to work on and learn.  It's not that I've been taught wrong, I just haven't been able (or dedicated enough) to learn.

[Liam]

Midwif,

56 isn't that old (my patrol director is 70 and he skis it all...and has had both acl's repaired over the years)...and, perhaps taking out the 'air' portion of my definition of expert skier, it is a goal that could be achieved by you (or anyone else who puts in the time, money, equipment focus that you do).  But, I suspect 'high-intermediate' is enough for you...which is great, like I said, it is a decent level to get to in skiing, especially if you started skiing as an adult. 

But I don't think skiing the most advanced terrain in the east (or anywhere else) well in all conditions is beyond the pale for people who pursue skiing to the level that you guys all apparently do.

Jim,

what you said is EXACTLY my point, 30 days got you as far as they could (low intermediate), the average resort instructor could take you no further, you were primed and ready to take advanced camps (and like I said, it is exactly folks like you that find their way to these camps) and absorb the lessons in books and videos. 

Well now you've been an avid camper of a particular style for a number of years and dedicated skier and purchaser of high end equipment...and by your own description, you are a high intermediate (which, is not a knock, like I said, it's a decent place to end up in your skiing and lots don't make it that far).  You, like a lot of PMTS adherents (and this is going by the copious amount of stuff people post of themselves and their skiing here and on the PMTS forum), hit this plateau and content yourselves with further refinements of technical moves you already have.   I guess somewhere out there there really is a 'perfect turn' and pursuing it might be a worthwhile goal.

You can certainly strive to make nicer turns on certain terrain as an enduring year in/ year out goal in your skiing.   But, I think there is more, PMTS is a part of pursuing this 'more', but there are other skillsets (and mindsets....and the 'mind set' paradigm is the substance of a future thread I'm working on) that go into the expert equation.  Some of those skills and the accompanying mindset were probably part of your initial forays onto the white world of frozen wonder long ago.

I'm glad you read Lito's stuff, it's long been my favorite....I came to really get what the feet first gang (HH, Clendenin, etc) were getting at after I read Lito.  But think about how open ended and diverse Lito's vision of Expert skiing is (the last few chapters of his last 'Breakthrough on the New Skis.' ) In fact, I just checked it...He's the one who said ALL Conditions-All Terrain.  I just can't argue with Lito.

[midwif]

Midwif,

56 isn't that old (my patrol director is 70 and he skis it all...and has had both acl's repaired over the years)...and, perhaps taking out the 'air' portion of my definition of expert skier, it is a goal that could be achieved by you (or anyone else who puts in the time, money, equipment focus that you do).  But, I suspect 'high-intermediate' is enough for you...which is great, like I said, it is a decent level to get to in skiing, especially if you started skiing as an adult. 

What leads you to assume that?
Just curious.

[bushwacka]

Josh,

For the record, Harald has written extensively about the need to flex at the hip sockets, and, the need to keep hips more level in turns. Heck, he wrote the modern book on counterbalance and counteracting movements. Look at John Botti's avatar and the hip position is far different, John has written it has taken him years to build that movement into his skiing. Never confuse what PMTS teaches with how a PMTS advocate actually skis.

 As are not a student, you do make incorrect assumptions.  We recreational skiers all speak a far higher level of competence than we can demonstrate on the hill. Helluva tells me that each time we ski together.

its not just flexing its rotating or letting your femur rotate in your hip socket. Its also letting your femur separate on a lateral plane form the hip joint. away from the center. This shouldnt take years it should be learned on day one.....

This is impossible to learn with out getting your legs to lead you by foot steering. Once you have your legs separated, you can go ahead and start building counter and angulation aka CB/CA.

[bushwacka]

Josh: That is a pretty big leap, to look at ONE picture (the Avatar) and arrive at the conclusion that she "was taught wrong"?  You are right in your analysis of the picture, and Lynn acknowledged that a year ago when you noted it. 
The conclusion that she was taught to angulate at the spine, however, is wrong.

she was taught to position her shoulder instead of where the separation should be happening. So I would argue she was taught wrong.

[bushwacka]

Bush
Let's remove your ego from this subject for a moment.
I will acknowledge (without even experiencing) your superior teaching skills on hearsay.....yours.

Lets imagine beginning ski instruction where the goal is to teach functional skiing from the get go. Not just some adaptive movements that get people on on the slope wrecking their perfectly good knees.

Where teachers didn't have to go against their better knowledge in order to teach good technique?

I would be perfectly happy to spend some ski time with you one of these days. I'm just letting you age a bit more into a better vintage.

how am I wrecking people's knees? How are you suppose to teach fundamental movement when people can nt even stand? How is anyone going against their better knowlede?

[midwif]

Bush
I am sure YOU wreck no one's knees.
But traditional teaching that the VAST majority of new skiers  receives, DOES!

Remember, this conversation is not aimed at you personally.
It's just about a small teaching method making inroads that some on this board are enthused about.

Too bad the PMTS north-east meet up is not working with my schedule.
Would have been fun to meet you personally.
Lynn

[bushwacka]

1. To the original point, I think it's cool you guys are working hard to make PMTS more influential.  More power to you.

2. I really like Josh's beginner lesson...can you really get all that done in 1.5 hours with a group???   What can they ski when they are done?

well it depend and it works for MOST people. Yesterday with a 18 year old boy from Puerto Rico, and 24 year old girl from down under it worked great. The girl who was far more coordinated and did nt do anything extra was easily matching basically right after the edge change, the guy was making narrow gliding wedge turns and was having issue because he kept trying to twist his upper body because well he is a guy and doesnt know how to move. They were able to ski the easy chairlift competently in one hour and were more refined by the end of the lesson.

today I had one middle aged guy from Mayalasia, and he had trouble walking with his ski boots on and was easily out of breath walking 20 feet while carrying his skis. He clearly was bring much less to the table than the younger folks yesterday. I would love to see someone try to teach someone that un atheletic a DTP lesson.  straight runs where a challenge it took us 1.5 hours for learn how to glide straight, glide straight in a wedge, and then do tipping only gliding wedge turn aka the crab walk.

luckly for you guys with the exception of Welch and Sol vista you never have to deal with trying to DTP someone that sucky at moving


Here's my bigger question, and it's for all the adult learners out there (you guys who skied as kids and came up through race programs are an entity onto yourselves):  Do you really think you learned nothing of value from your earliest levels of instruction??  Clearly, you all stuck with skiing and probably got to explore quite a bit of the mountain?  I find it funny that people resent moving like advanced beginners and low intermediates when they were advanced beginners and low intermediates.  I don't ski they way I did 10 years ago, but I can't say those proto-years had no value as I gained comfort, control and the ability to explore the fun side of the mountain.   If I hadn't been given some tools to take into the off-piste very early on in my skiing, I would have quit.

does 19 count as adult learner? IMO it doesnt. Kids are any ody that hasnt forgotten how to play, and adults are those that have forgotten. With that said I sucked, I sucked really bad. I hated lessons. I still hate most lesson. To be honest very few people out there have much to offer me and those that do are harder to ski with. Luckly those that do help me Bob Barnes, Doug Stewart, Dave Merriam, Terry Barbour dont need much time to impact a difference.

My own thoughts on the progression:

a. The PSIA Beginning: Hey, you got to get on and off the lift, you got to realize that your feet aren't glued in position and you have to discover there are a lot more fun places to explore on the mountain than the learning groomer.  Foot work is great, but if you can't stop that upper-body over-rotation, squatting and all those upper-body gross balance inhibiting compensations that novices constantly fall back on, you'll never never connect with your feet and ankles.   You need speed control, and you need it to work places other than the flattest of learning groomers.  PSIA, I think, does a fairly admirable job of getting people what they need to get out and ski (all things considered, that people are not always ready to make commitments in gear, time and money).

first there is no "PSIA" beginning. We are free to teach how ever you see fit. My run down was my most case scenario. With young(or young at heart) super atheletic kids who have dynamic balance I will quite often teach DTP. Usually based on 1000 steps.  to today when I was for sure teaching a wider wedge but had no choice. I could of told the guy to just go home and work out and trust me i want to say that. My hope is loving skiing will cause people to work out.

b. PMTS/CLedenin/Deslaurier/Lito Other name brand camps:  Since no one signs up for these camps until they've become low intermediates it is not surprising that these methods do a great job of moving low intermediates to High intermediates.  After a few years of getting my gross motor movement comfort under control on big hills, I found great benefit in these models (collectively the 'ski with your feet/ankle' models-using modern ski design-sans rocker-to it's fullest...sort of).  And, these guys get a lot of folks to the High Intermediate level-and I've been watching MA videos on the PMTS website for years, those guys who are long time campers have done a good job of becoming advanced intermediates (and that's not a knock, advanced intermediate is pretty good).


c. Expert Skiing......Takes more.   You need all the moves.  Some will argue over the definition of expert skiing, but I think the old PSIA line is fairly tried and true:  All terrain-All Conditions (and that includes modest air ability: 6ft vert in tricky conditions/ 10 ft in good conditions and good landing zones).  And not just surviving all conditions and terrain, but handling it with smoothness and speed control and enjoyment (we all know it when we see it).  A smooth and sure footed run down Paradise and MRG, even in icy conditions or Kinsman's Glade at Cannon when the coverage is questionable is no problem for an expert skier.  I'm not there yet, but I ski regularly with true experts and I'm getting ever closer.  Truth to tell, a private lesson from Josh Matta would probably do a lot for guys in my position.

There is nothing that you should 'throw away' from your learning.  I think the pmts-style instruction is a great addition, it's good folks will be able to incorporate it as they move from low to high intermediates, and it will pay dividends if they ever get beyond that (which few will, of course), as will other things they hopefully learned and continue to learn as they progress.

thanks for the kind words. I actually think the PMTS moves are valid and great way to teach those movements I have been using most of these the drills out lined in the DVDs for year.  They are not specific to PMTS.

[HeluvaSkier]

Haven't read much of this, but caught a bit... I'll only add this; take it for what it is worth.

The cornerstone of good instruction, regardless of where it comes from, is not about teaching everything. Rather, it is about teaching the right things and combining them into a full package that does not include excess, or confusing/conflicting instructions. Individually, most drills and movements don't mean a lot, but how you select certain ones and put them into a finished product is what really matters when you're talking about repeatability in developing skiers/athletes as a coach.

Also... Any time you introduce stability instead of forcing a student to balance you're getting into dangerous territory. For beginners, stability equals safe, but stability does not equal good skiing. I see very few skiers in a season who are balanced laterally... even fewer who are truly balanced fore/aft. Both can be counted on one hand.

Cheers.