Author Topic: My new wheelset  (Read 524 times)

LivingProof

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My new wheelset
« on: November 14, 2012, 06:10:05 am »
Some may remember that I've mentioned that my Mavic 700 roadwheels are rusting due to being in a salt air environment near the ocean. They are advertised as "stainless steel" spokes, painted black, but, there are certain steels that develop a rust like exterior without rust penetrating to the inside.  Jim Ratliff offereded me his Nuevation wheelset as he went road bike tubeless with Shimano Dura Ace wheels. We linked up on his homeward commute following a visit to Lynn in NYC, and, I'll be mounting them up. They are in great condition, far better than my 3 year old Mavic's.

Thanks Jim. The power of Peak Skiers friendships is very good thing.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 08:00:22 am by jim-ratliff »


jim-ratliff

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Re: My new wheelset
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 07:49:02 am »
Thanks Jim. The power of Peak Skiers friendships is very good thing.
Mike:  You are welcome. The satisfaction of being able to recycle something no longer used is a very good thing as well.
FWIW, the front is an R28 Aero  but the rear is the M28 Aero (steel free hub body instead of aluminum).


« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 08:05:16 am by jim-ratliff »
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Svend

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Re: My new wheelset
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2012, 02:11:56 pm »
Nice one, Jim!


jim-ratliff

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Re: My new wheelset
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 04:00:36 pm »

I thought I would stick a copy of this here, since Living Proof's new wheels are Neuvation and there was some conversation about spoke count and wheels somewhere here, although that conversation was about mountain bike wheels and this newsletter article is about road wheels (where the aerodynamics of high spoke count wheels is a bigger issue).




Neuvation Newsletter Thursday Nov 29th
[/t][/c]


How to spec a custom wheel.

We sell lots of custom wheels and often I get asked the best way to spec a wheel.  Here are a few guide lines.
First and foremost, the failure mode for virtually all lower spoke count wheels is rim cracks.  The heavier the rim the stronger and slower it will be.  The more spokes , the heavier and less aerodynamic it will be and the fewer rim cracks you will get.
Our stock wheels are, not surprisingly, a very good indication of what we believe is the best trade off.  On our SL wheels we use a 440 gram 20 hole front rim and a 480 24 hole rear rim.  We find that combination to be a good tradeoff for people even over 200 pounds.  We?ve had 250 pound riders put 10,000 miles on that set of wheels without any issues.
If you are hard on wheels you can break anything but I personally don?t see the need for any front wheels with more than 24 spokes (except for heavy touring) or more than 28 in the rear.
Hubs have improved drastically over the last 10 years and it?s very unusual to experience any failures and when they do happen they are relatively easy and inexpensive to fix.  You can put a lot of money into hubs and really not get much out of it.  We always suggest either our stock Neuvation hubs or the White Industries hubs if anyone asks.
We use Sapim spokes.  Their CX Ray spoke is the strongest spoke around and it?s also very light and very expensive (and used by most of the tour pros.  You can use their Laser spoke and get the same weight and give up a tiny bit of durability and aerodynamics.
[size=78%]We always suggest brass nipples on the drive side of the rear hub.  If you use alloy there is a decent chance they will crack and it?s not worth the weight savings.  For all the other nipples we suggest alloy.[/size]
[/size][/color][/font][/color][/font]
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 04:04:37 pm by jim-ratliff »
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Svend

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Re: My new wheelset
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2012, 08:56:58 am »
Hey Jim, thanks for posting that.  Very interesting and thought-provoking.  I had convinced myself that my Fisher 29er needs new, stiffer wheels because the spoke count on the stock wheels was low (28), and they weren't laced 3-cross.  The Neuvation article directly contradicts what I have read about wheel stiffness in relation to spoke count; all sources (in the context of mtn. bikes) were citing 32 spoke, 3-cross wheels with solid rims as being de-rigeur for heavier riders like me.  I can only assume that Neuvation's comments apply only to road bike wheels, and that the torgue and impacts that a mtn. bike wheel is subjected to dictate a much different set of criteria for wheel build, and spoke count specifically. 

Confounding this whole question, is the fact that wheel maker Mavic is building their new, highly touted line of 29er wheelsets with only 24 front, 20 rear for Crossmax, and 24 front, 24 rear for the Crossride.  I have not read any independent reviews of these, but I cannot imagine Mavic putting out a flexy, mushy-feeling wheelset.

Interesting subject, and worthy of more discussion with some bike techs.  And some test rides.....




jim-ratliff

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Re: My new wheelset
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2012, 02:20:25 pm »
I think you also need to consider the cross section of the rim. Neuvation is comparing two of their rims with the same cross section as an example. Don't most of Mavic's tubeless wheels have an extra box construction that Reinforces the wheel. They also have extra material around the spokes that thins between the spokes. And I'm pretty sure that wider rims (the current rage) are also inherently stiffer.
So, a rim designed for low spoke count rather than a 'standard' rim with fewer spoke holes?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 03:33:50 pm by jim-ratliff »
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jim-ratliff

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Re: My new wheelset
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2012, 02:23:02 pm »
FWIW, my Dura Ace road wheels (16 spokes front, 20 rear) also have extra carbon fiber around the spoke holes for reinforcement.
And a box construction that eliminates spoke holes in the tire/wheel air chamber (so no rim strips), as is also true with my Mavic wheels.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 04:06:24 pm by jim-ratliff »
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jim-ratliff

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Re: My new wheelset
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 12:10:55 pm »

A cross section of the Mavic Cross-Trail (and I think their other tubeless rims) showing the inner rim bridge that makes it leakproof without rim strips but also stiffens the rim. Picture also shows the milling in between spokes to reduce weight while leaving material around the spoke holes.




-------------------------------------------
Stiffer and stronger Instead of being drilled, the lower rim bridge is pushed on the inside, then threaded to enable the spoke nipples to be directly screwed in it, leaving the upper rim bridge intact.   [/size]
    • Rim is 4 times more resistant to fatigue stress
    • 20% increase in the rim rigidity to maximize power transfer





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    LivingProof

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    Re: My new wheelset
    « Reply #8 on: December 03, 2012, 01:50:17 pm »
    Hey Jim, thanks for posting that.  Very interesting and thought-provoking.  I had convinced myself that my Fisher 29er needs new, stiffer wheels because the spoke count on the stock wheels was low (28), and they weren't laced 3-cross.  The Neuvation article directly contradicts what I have read about wheel stiffness in relation to spoke count; all sources (in the context of mtn. bikes) were citing 32 spoke, 3-cross wheels with solid rims as being de-rigeur for heavier riders like me.  I can only assume that Neuvation's comments apply only to road bike wheels, and that the torgue and impacts that a mtn. bike wheel is subjected to dictate a much different set of criteria for wheel build, and spoke count specifically. 


    Svend

    I would not infer anything about Mountain bike wheels from the Neuvation write up of their spoke count on road wheels. The road wheels are radial spokes which means no crossing of spokes. Two very different design criteria, I would think, but I'm a noob with respect to mountain bike hardware.



    jim-ratliff

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    Re: My new wheelset
    « Reply #9 on: December 03, 2012, 03:26:00 pm »

    LivingProof, Svend:
    The CrossTrail (above) is the low end of their UST tubeless mountain bike wheel. 

    This link is one of their high end 29'er wheels, basically the same design; only 20 spokes front and rear with emphasis on stronger rims.

    http://www.mavic.com/en/product/wheels/mountain-bike/wheels/Crossmax-SLR-29



    « Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 03:31:39 pm by jim-ratliff »
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    Svend

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    Re: My new wheelset
    « Reply #10 on: December 03, 2012, 04:53:02 pm »
    Mike -- thanks for the clarification on that.  I was not putting too much stock into the Neuvation comments, knowing that he was talking road wheels.  But still, his statements about spoke count are nevertheless interesting.  I did a little bit of reading in the meantime, and came across some stuff from Sheldon Brown and Lennard Zinn re. spoke count on road and mtn. bike wheels.  Their take on it is that the recent move to lower spoke counts is a way for bike manufacturers to make a wheel cheaper but make more profit by touting it as new and improved.  Wheel strength and performance are actually diminished.  OTOH, some respected wheel makers are putting out some well-reviewed products that have lower spoke count, but strong rim profiles.  This gets confusing...

    The truth, and what will work for me on my 29er, may lay somewhere in the middle.  Or Brown and Zinn may be right.  I will need to do some test riding to see how different wheels perform.  Ideally, I'd like to find a bike with a strong frame to test ride, but with a middle-of-the-road lighter wheelset, and see how it feels.  If it has snappy acceleration and a solid feel, then I know the problem is with the frame of my own bike.  But if it's bendy, then I will go wheel shopping.

    FWIW, the rear triangle of my bike is not the most rugged build.  Two of the 26 inch bikes in our family (an Opus and a Norco) have much better frame build than my Fischer 29er.  So I am not yet convinced that spending $600+ on new wheels will make much difference if the frame is not up to the job.  The good news is that I can get a new bike with a nicely made frame and similar geometry to my Fischer for about the same net cost as a new wheelset (factoring in the sale of my bike). 

    Jim -- the Crossmax certainly look like nicely made wheels, and quite light.  And their tech info is helpful re. rim profile and spoke material and their affect on stiffness.  Interesting, though, that they don't give a recommended max rider weight like Stans does.  I'd be pretty nervous riding a light wheelset like that.  So darn expensive and light, I'd be afraid to give 'em a hard hit for fear of bending them.  Not the way I like to ride.  I'm not hard on my bike, but I like the confidence of knowing that if I hit a rock or a heavy root or log, that the bike will take it.  So far, I have to say that my Fisher and its Bontrager wheels have been great in that respect.  Only had to true a slight wobble in the wheels maybe twice in three years. 

    I've said this before:  give me heavier but stronger components any day, and let me ride without inhibitions.  Leave the flimsy weight-weanie stuff to the racer boys.

    I'll let you know if I get out for some test rides soon.  There's still no snow on the ground here, so no reason I couldn't visit a bike shop or two....   ;)
    « Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 04:57:56 pm by Svend »

    LivingProof

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    Re: My new wheelset
    « Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 05:53:53 am »

    I've said this before:  give me heavier but stronger components any day, and let me ride without inhibitions.  Leave the flimsy weight-weanie stuff to the racer boys.


    My thoughts exactly.  :D

    At my age, and borrowing a John Botti phrase, "it's more about the size of the engine powering the bike".

    LivingProof

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    Re: My new wheelset
    « Reply #12 on: June 22, 2013, 08:47:37 am »
    Hi All

    Just a quick update on the Neuvation wheelset that Jim gifted to me late last year. They did not get put to use until this spring, and, even further delayed due to my local (summer) bike shop was closed due to flooding associated with Superstorm Sandy. I've a few hundred miles on them, and, they ride great. Jim stated his belief that he could ride faster on them than his previous wheelset, and, I concur that they are faster than my Mavic's. I can't document the speed increase as my bike skills and strength did deteriorate over the winter ( due to being waylaid by skiing and weather ), but,  I believe I can ride at least 1 mph faster. First impressions are always a "snapshot", so, time will tell....and it's the ultimate test.

    I've written that my old wheelset was subject to rusting, stainless steel spokes. Well, the damp moist Atlantic air also claimed my front derailuer over the winter as it was corroded. I had the LBS do full maintenance on the other gear of my bike to avoid a similar fate.

    Again, thanks Jim for the wheelset!