Author Topic: New wheels for the Paragon?  (Read 601 times)

jim-ratliff

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 12:31:41 pm »
That's good insight.  LP's comment seems to agree, if he got a beefier wheel for his bike.  And I assume that this carries over to mountain bike wheels as well, if not more so in certain ways.  Just curious:  you and Lynn upgraded your mtn. bike wheels to Crossmax....did you notice anything different in their performance?  I know, they're 26 inch, so totally different flex characteristics than 29ers, but was wondering if there was a marked change in how the bike handled or accelerated?

     The main thing I've seen in road bikes was better rolling from better hubs and bearings, and I "feel" like that was true of the Cross Ride as well, but that effect is less apparent when riding easy trails compared to road bikes on blacktop.
Even on easy trails, the mountain bike is noticeably more effort, but only 60% as fast.
     We went from CrossRide to CrossTrail, so not that big a change.
We were also migrating to tubeless with new wheels and some new tires and changing tire pressures, or same tires without tubes and less pressure, so hard to have a "single variable" comparison.
     I think we are 2 mph faster than we were, and I know that Midwif has several times said "Damn, Bushwacka was right about tubeless" rolling easier. But not all of our feeling of easier rolling can be attributed to just one change.

     Not part of your thread, but the Continental X-Kings are a really easy rolling tire for as versatile as they seem to be.  I'm really sold on them.
     We have one ride where we exit the Mortimer Schiff trail from a Boy Scout camp onto a black top road with a half-mile grade back down to the car. Before the wheel/tire/tubeless change my speed was 27-28 down that hill, no pedaling. Same conditions I now coast down at 33-34 mph (54 kph).  :o
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 12:43:47 pm by jim-ratliff »
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Svend

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 12:41:56 pm »
I think we are 2 mph faster than we were, and I know that Midwif has several times said "Damn, Bushwacka was right about tubeless" rolling easier. But not all of our feeling of easier rolling can be attributed to just one change.
Not part of your thread, but the Continental X-Kings are a really easy rolling tire for as versatile as they seem to be.  I'm really sold on them.

Please, I beg you, no more talk about tubeless!!! I will not tolerate such thread drift (at least in this direction)....   ;D ;D

Just kidding....thanks for the tip on the Conti's.  I think their 29er versions are made in China, or such like, while their 26 inch tires are all made in Germany.  Kind of a turn-off, but maybe moot.  For the moment, I am still liking the Slant Six, even in the damp fall conditions.  They bite surprisingly well on all the damp leaf litter and wet clay, and shed the clay like teflon coated.  I may need a new rear tire next season, as the Slant Six on the back end is wearing fast.


jim-ratliff

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2012, 12:44:44 pm »



Don't get the "made in China" version of the X-King. (or so I've read). All of the good versions are made in Germany. Their "Black Chili" rubber compound is a big component of the easy rolling and long wearing (also the compound in the exceptional Conti 4000S road tire), and they wisely only build Black Chili tires in Germany.
I say "wisely" since the Chinese are not widely known for their respect of other country's patents and intellectual property.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 12:51:54 pm by jim-ratliff »
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Svend

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2012, 12:53:15 pm »
Thanks -- I'm pretty sure all their 29er tires are made there.  Which rules out Conti for my bike at least.  I'll stick with Geax for my next tires.  Terryl's bike may do well with an X-King on the back end, though -- I'll check 'em out.  The Mountain King looks good too.

bushwacka

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2012, 04:54:38 pm »
And what wheels come on the bike that you will buy? Go test ride one of those bikes, and if you like the way it feels, buy that rear wheel (and you'll have a spare).
Even better, after riding the bike, ask the sales tech what wheels he would recommend as an upgrade to that bike for a heavier rider, and buy one of those for the rear.
From what I've read, good wheel building and tensioning is (as someone said) the black science of bike building. I would buy a production wheel where they have machines that measure spoke tension and radial runout and lateral runout and all that stuff rather than going with a local wheel builder that may be exceptional or may be average.

honestly I built (my first)3 wheels this year, and was pretty damn thorough. They are on the lighter side of the spectrum and havent had issues with them. Where as I have had issues with the machine built rims of supposely more durability before. The "handspuns" from QBP are hand assembled and then checked by another wheelsmith.  given the choice between my hand built and someone else handbuilt and some mass produced machine built wheel I will take the hand built everytime. I feel that anyone building wheels takes enough pride in there work to not put out crap. 

The things is IMO for most non system wheel there should be only one way to build and that is cross 3. wheels like the Mavic break that must be built cross 3 as they are built with different spoke thicknesses and to a much higher standard.


epic

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2012, 05:19:42 pm »
The thing I found interesting about that Mavic article is that the spoke tension can actually be quite low on those wheels, and according to Mavic being able to have lower tension can increase stiffness. Very strange, but the Mavic R-sysy wheels use what they call Tracomp which is some of the wheels are actually in compression while other s are in tension and it makes for a very stiff wheel. You can't do that with most spokes, but on the R-sys with carbon spokes, you can. It's just neat how the whole system works together and not always in the way you might expect.

The question about spoke gauge - 14/15 is kind of a standard double-butted spoke. 14g is 2.0mm, 15g is 1.8mm in another counterintuitive turn, DB spokes are actually stronger than straight-gauge spokes wheel being lighter at the same time. I use 2.0/1.5mm spokes on all of the wheels I build. Lacing - 3-cross is pretty much standard, and it means that on a 32 hole wheel, the spokes are pulling on the most metal at the hub, so **** hub flanges are least likely, most manufacturers won't warranty hubs that have been radial laced. On system wheels, uneven lacing patterns can be used to even out tension. For example, on some of those Crossmax wheels, you will see radial on the driveside and 2x on non-drive (as spoke count drops, 3x lacing can become counterproductive).

Conti tires - I just took mine off of my bike. Bought them last fall the German made Mountain King TLRs, and they did not live up to my expectations. I gave 'em an honest go for a full year, but they weren't very good at holding air, needed tons of sealant, plus the casing was too flexy and most importantly, the Black Chili compound did not live up to my expectations.

Svend

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2012, 05:23:21 pm »
Thanks Josh -- interesting info.  Did you build the wheels yourself? Seems pretty straightforward, if one follows the sequence and is patient with the lacing and tightening.  Was it an economical way to do this?

I assume that you replaced some stock wheels with the new hand built ones.  Did you notice a significant difference in performance? If so, what?

Something that occurred to me is that if I choose to replace the Bontrager's spokes with thicker ones, that the new ones might not fit in the hub holes.  Gotta check on that....


Svend

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2012, 05:38:58 pm »
Thanks Epic.

I get the gauge thing; the smaller the number the thicker the wire.  Will I have a problem lacing thicker spokes into the old hub? I am going to check my wheels and see if they are laced 3 cross.  If not, I assume that if I re-lace them and go to 3 cross I may need longer spokes.

The Mavic bladed spokes look pretty cool, I must say, and logic tells me that they are radially stronger.  I am impressed with their wheels, too.  My wife's bike has older Crossrides, and our daughter's has 317's, and for basic wheels, they're both pretty bombproof and nicely finished. 

I need to check Zinn's book...I seem to remember a chapter in there on wheels and lacing patterns.  Bedtime reading tonight....zzzzzz


epic

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2012, 06:02:33 pm »
14g spokes are pretty much the thickest, and honestly what I am trying to get at is that with tension being equal, I don' think thicker spokes will make your wheel stiffer, they'll just make them heavier. DT does make a butted spoke that is a 13/15/14, and it probably won't fit in your holes, it is usually used for tandems and such. If you look in wheel-building catalogs you may see a reamer for making the holes larger.

Svend

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2012, 09:23:34 pm »
Epic -- a quick read of Sheldon Brown's page on lacing patterns, and a good look at my wheels, showed me that I have a 2-cross pattern.  Turns out that this is normal for a 28 spoke rim.  The spokes do run off the hub at pretty close to a tangent (90 deg.), much like a 3-cross on a wheel with more numerous spokes.

The bottom line from all this seems to be that spoke quality is good at 14/15 ga., and good material, but the spoke count is low at only 28.  Lacing pattern is as good as it can get at that spoke count.

All this means that if indeed it is the wheel that is flexing (highly likely), then there is nothing I can do with the existing wheels to improve them, other than optimizing spoke tension.  So for better performance, I just need to get a new one (or a set).  Or live with it until I buy a new bike. 

Thanks everyone for their input.  Always great to hear from you all and get some objective advice.

Cheers,

Svend

Svend

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Re: New wheels for the Paragon?
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2012, 07:45:12 am »
Josh, how do you like your Stans Flow wheels? Good stiffness and solid build? Good performance? Any issues? Can they take a beating?

These are looking pretty good, and I can get a set for a great price.  Build-wise they are pushing all the right buttons:  32 hole; 14/15 ga spokes; 3-cross; 1900 grams total weight (same as my Bontragers); wide rim bed; max. rider weight of 250 lbs; convertible hubs.....it's all good stuff....

BTW, the WTB Laser are not worth looking at.  I found too many rider reviews that reported constant problems with wheels going out of true after only one ride, and that happening over and over again.  Plus hub problems.