Canadian Style!

[Liam]

You??  Not clear?  Perhaps, instead of always phrasing your thoughts as questions inverted by Yoda, you could instead strive for clarity and just say exactly what you're thinking.  Your attempt to be cagey end up just obfuscating your ideas.

Actually my reading skills are pretty good, I understood that you were referring to videos by michel and beaulieu....and I didn't say otherwise. 

Also, pursuant to the first sentence above:  I am still not sure if the pics and bios you posted meant that, yes, JF Bealieu is an influential part of CSIA or not.  Seems to me, two time inter ski participant-including the most recent with a video of him running the Canadian style clinic, ski school director, level 4 course conductors, etc suggests to me that it is fair to say that he is.  But if you think otherwise, please just say so.

   

Meput, the happy feet tip:  I think he said it was a warm up drill.  I get wanting to play around with fore/ aft foot adjustments and a wide gamut of independent foot movements as part of a warm-up to a day of off-piste skiing.   I seem to recall Lito saying something similar, encouraging beginners to pick up one ski and move it around and really explore the limits of independent movements, and asking the same of intermediates, but while actually skiing easier slopes as a warm up.   I don't do anything like that shuffle he's doing, but I will pick up a ski and flew and swing it a bit as I ski my first run or two to wake up my sensory/ motor connectors. 

I would think his powder tip video on using a 'Pop and Smear' would be the one that'd set most folks off here.   

Like most ski 'tips' their use is pretty fleeting, and hit or miss.  I like some of his tidbits and can't cotton to the others.  Mostly, I'm just using his free skiing segments as a demonstration of a skiing style...along with (now) 6 other CSIA notables.





 

[meput]

Liam,

I look at tips as visual or thinking cues to help me accomplish a movement, position or mental picture (I am probably leaving out aspects - no coffee yet this morning).

Example: JF's "elbows down" is a visual cue that helps the skier to counterbalance. I get this.

The "happy feet" bothers me. First thing in the morning, after a chairlift ride, I do tend to do some stretching - whether stationary or moving (minimal grade). My first run, I am concentrating on technique as it will tend set my muscle memory for the day. The feet shuffling of the "happy feet" video would tend to throw off my concentration on fore/aft balance that is critical, for myself, during my 1st run. I feel the reply coming," if you don't like the tip, ignore it". Don't worry, I will ignore it.

On the other foot (pun intended), the feet shuffling may be helpful for helping with ski boot bite.

"Mostly, I'm just using his (i.e. Foster's) free skiing segments as a demonstration of a skiing style...along with (now) 6 other CSIA notables." - I do not see Foster's skiing style the same as the other skiers that you have provided. To break it down further, I see Foster's skiing closer to PSIA with an extension release. Michel and Beaulieu ski with a flex release, closer to PMTS.

[jbotti]

You??  Not clear?  Perhaps, instead of always phrasing your thoughts as questions inverted by Yoda, you could instead strive for clarity and just say exactly what you're thinking.  Your attempt to be cagey end up just obfuscating your ideas.

Actually my reading skills are pretty good, I understood that you were referring to videos by michel and beaulieu....and I didn't say otherwise. 

A little overtly agressive wouldn't you say? Or to pharse it without using a question, you post was less than civil.

[LivingProof]

A little overtly agressive wouldn't you say? Or to pharse it without using a question, you post was less than civil.

OK, I can agree Liam is pushing the edge, but, I can understand his frustration. Go back and look at the entire post. Liam has done a lot good research and organized his thoughts very well. Max just jumps in and asks questions or makes a single line comment challenging Liam's tinking. Not much value or effort in what Max has added. I don't think that style respects the work of the OP.

[jbotti]

My sense has always been that we don't judge the value of people's posts. While you may find little or no value in someones I or someone else may find huge value in it. Judging the value of others posts is a slippery slope and probably not one we wish to head down. Having said that we do collectivley insist that people on this forum maintain a civil tone. I think we all continue to agree that this is the right approach.

[Svend]

John, while I agree 100% with what you're saying, there is also a style of writing posts that can perhaps best be described as passive-aggressive.  I have to say I find this just as un-civil and off-putting as a more direct aggressive approach.  What I mean, is the kind of repeated posts that are consistently contrary, negative, and have a tone that subtly questions the intelligence and the experience of others posting.  And all done in short, one- or two-sentence jots that offer no insight into the thoughts behind the words or qualification of the position taken.  This style of communication has no hope of opening a meaningful dialogue with such a person, is completely unhelpful, and offers almost no benefit to the larger discussion.  In the best cases, it puts a negative damper on the chat.  In the worst cases, it's a conversation killer.

[jbotti]

I disagree. Max's posts in my opinion are civil and polite. So if we don't like someone's style we should respond back with uncivil comments? Come on! Isn't that point of Liams posts, that we can find value in everyone's style and approach?

[Gary]

Hey gang....I find that when one person recognizes a response to be, how shall I say...tricky or baited....most others recognize the same. As with any post from any individual, if that were the case, I pay no attention to the child sitting in the corner of the room.

Peoples writing styles can also represent personalities or let's say someones passion or excuberance....but

As frustrating as some conversations can be, I think overall, the posts have come around to being tolerant and accepting. If there's a flash in the pan, we all see it and in one form or another, will make it known we see it.

There is a lot of diversified talent posting here....respect for all goes a long long way!

Best, g

[LivingProof]

So, let's return to Liam's OP, the third venture into looking at technique.

I've always been partial to the CSIA as they taught me to ski. In my mid 20's I did my first day and felt the thrill of the sport very late in the season. The next December, I went to a 7 day ski week just below Mt. Tremblant at a resort called Grey Rocks (no longer in business). They had daily 4 hours lessons for groups of ten people. Prior to attending, I bought a book on CSIA ski technique. By weeks end, I was a decent parallel skier, no small feat in the days of skinny skis and leather boots. I would return to Grey Rocks twice more. Decades later, I bought one of Harb's books and reeducated my thinking.

In the early days, CSIA was a very structured progression of movements, my sense is they are far structured than PSIA. A friend from the Epic Gatherings words full time in winter as a CSIA Level 2 and she tells me that her ski school coaching does not permit much variance in either technique drills or instructional verbal direction. Far different from what Josh describes in the Stowe school.

While checking out Liam's offerings on You Tube, is easy to waste a lot of time looking at the associated video's of Liam's selected Level 4's. I would expect a very high level of skiing for those with that distinction, and, I just enjoyed seeing them do their everyday skiing. A hack like me has no business nitpicking their technique. I'm not a major fan of the instructional efforts, like shuffling your feet, not that it is worthless, I just like to see the big picture and how it fits in. In the lighter, jiber videos, I think these pro's just spend so much time on the mountain, they just need to break away and go do different, fun things. 

So Liam, thanks for another trip down a road less traveled. Any more styles coming? My only other thought is video of everyday recreational racer training is available (nastar or masters series). I see the racers daily at my home mountain and they are the group I study most when riding chairs.

[HighAngles]

OK, I read through this entire thread and watched all the videos...  and I just have to say it - doesn't this "stuff" that is passed off as "skiing tips" just frustrate the heck out you?  I watched a bunch of those Josh Foster videos and a few of the others.  Their teaching is not movement-based.  It's all about "feeling" and "try to do this in your skiing".  It's all just crap IMHO and I'm amazed that this is what the majority of the skiing public is left with to learn how to ski.

HH said it in his latest video - even most experts don't know how they ski.  They just have natural ability and have developed their movements without any true understanding of what makes great skiing.  If you aspire to improve your skiing you really have to understand the movements that form the foundation of good skiing.  Yes, I have drunk the Kool-aid, and believe me that I resisted for a good long time.  I kept listening to the naysayers and questioning if I really wanted to dedicate myself to what it was going to take to rebuild my skiing from the ground up.  But I was growing more and more frustrated with my inability to progress in my skiing skills.  I really feel like in the 2.5 seasons I've spent studying and practicing PMTS that my skiing really has improved.  Friends who haven't skied with me regularly who see me again always comment on how much my skiing has changed.  Of course the journey for me is far from over and I wish I had the dedication to really put in the drill time like some of the other devotees, but I still feel like I'm no longer "searching" for a way to improve my skiing.  I've found the way and it's all been laid out for easy study.

So yes, I'm evangelizing, but it comes from an honest place in my soul where I want others to experience the epiphany I've had in ski instruction.  Like him or hate him, but HH has put together one heck of a system to take skiers to the expert level.

I'll get off my soapbox now... 

[Svend]

OK, I read through this entire thread and watched all the videos...  and I just have to say it - doesn't this "stuff" that is passed off as "skiing tips" just frustrate the heck out you?  I watched a bunch of those Josh Foster videos and a few of the others.  Their teaching is not movement-based.  It's all about "feeling" and "try to do this in your skiing".  It's all just crap IMHO and I'm amazed that this is what the majority of the skiing public is left with to learn how to ski.

I'll get off my soapbox now... 

Yes, please do.  Your statement above is simply absurd.  Do you really think that the entire CSIA system is based on 5 minute You Tube and TV ski tip videos? And that is all "the majority of the skiing public is left with"? Honestly, how ridiculous to write them off as such with just a haughty little key stroke.  You clearly have little to no understanding of what the CSIA is all about, if the above is what you truly think.  And then to talk at length in the very next paragraph about how great Harb is, makes one wonder if you have another agenda?  Proselytizing? It would seem so....

Quote from: gandalf
   

Svend: I understand your desire to defend Canada, but I think you went a bit over the line just as Liam did. I think High Angles is OK in saying that nothing he saw in the videos  made him question his contentment with his "current skiing paradigm". Whether he is making a blanket statement about CSIA isn't really relevant.
    And I assume that, like all of us, no one really has any agenda other than to enjoy skiing. I'm pretty sure that we are all aware enough of each other's teaching paradigms not to be "converted" by anything written here.

Edit:  Jim, let's not turn this into a nation-vs.-nation thing.  I was not defending Canada, nor defending the CSIA per se.  I simply took exception to what appeared to be blatant promotion of the HH doctrine, and that after dismissively trashing another system without any substance or basis to justify the remarks.  That kind of tactic is distasteful in any context, ski world or otherwise.  I called it as I saw it, and pardon me if I offended.

To be clear, I am not a student of the CSIA, nor am I a student of any single technique or system, so in that respect I consider myself open-minded, and I certainly have no hidden agenda.  On the contrary, I am open to learning from many sources, and taking the best of those and applying what works for me.  Full disclosure, then:  I have taken all of three formal ski lessons in my entire life -- one in Switzerland at my 2nd time ever on skis; and two at Whiteface from a wonderful PSIA instructor named Mary, who was also director of the ski school at nearby Titus Mountain.  Since then I have learned from reading, but more than anything, I have learned immensely from informal instruction given me by my friend Gary when we ski together.  I'm not sure what Gary's instructor credentials are, but I'm pretty sure they're not CSIA.  So you see, I have learned almost all of my skiing from non-CSIA sources. 

[Gary]

HA...gotta say if in your opinion you've found the "Golden Fleece" of all skiing technique...your search has ended for the "Holy Grail" of technique....I'm very happy for you. I might add that if you close your mind to the possabilities that there are other truths out there, you obviously have found perfection and I must admit from where I stand, I'm totally in awe of you.

I too have had the chance to spend days with GREAT skiers....including a full day with a Level III CSIA Examiner. This guy was 5'3 and could ski with balance, power, effortless beauty and grace...skiing VW bumps with the ease of a Flying Walenda!

So, like Svend said "Proselytizing indeed"....but I'd stand solid by my belief that putting all your eggs in one basket nerver is the best method!

G

[Liam]

Look, guys, a couple things.

1. Civility-we are all pretty active posters and have, over the years, allowed our ONLINE PERSONALITIES to take on certain attributes.  If someone is frustrated with someone else's post, even in a civlized discussion, it has to be ok to express that frustration with a pointed response (isn't that just part of any on-going long-term discursive relationship??)?  Believe it or not, I know most people here are above average to way above average skiers, who know a lot about technique and the learning process involved in skiing, which is why I enjoy posting up in these forums.   We can reign in vulgarity or completely unwarranted harassments (for instances, say anything about my kids, my wife or my dog-it's war!...my skiing or views on skiing, on the other hand, is open season), but sometimes debate and discussion, even in the most civil of groups, turns necessarily pointed, and too quick of a clampdown forestalls the evlotion of natural human dialogue.

2. Ski Tips and ski programs...Look, point blank, HH has one of the best learning progression I'm aware of, his cataloguing and precise descriptions and demonstrations of movements are sine qua non  in generally published ski instruction.   However, I am not willing to throw away the world of the quick tip and demo video.  And, I think the canadians I've put up (specifically jOSH fOSTER, and Tobin of Section are some of the best of these.  Taken correctly they add some nuance and possibility to one's skiing repertoire.   Also, you are all aware there are many different types of learners, correct?  Not everyone processes every instructional mode the same.  And, my own bias, which I admit, is that there are so many ways to move on a ski, why exclude so many possibilities?

But, alas, I am not in this thread to plump for one ski school over another, but to analyze style and corresponding techniques.

Is a narrow stance typically Canadian (all these guys stand tighter than the PSIA demo guys, with or without extension)?

[gandalf]

Yes, please do.  Your statement above is simply absurd.  Do you really think that the entire CSIA system is based on 5 minute You Tube and TV ski tip videos? And that is all "the majority of the skiing public is left with"? Honestly, how ridiculous to write them off as such with just a haughty little key stroke.  You clearly have little to no understanding of what the CSIA is all about, if the above is what you truly think.  And then to bang away about how great Harb is in the very next paragraph makes it transparently obvious what your agenda is.  Proselytizing indeed.

Svend: A bit personal don't you think? I think High Angles is OK in saying that nothing he saw in the videos made him question his contentment/investment with his "current skiing paradigm". Whether he is making a blanket statement about CSIA wasn't clear.
And I assume that, like all of us, he really has no agenda other than to enjoy skiing. I'm pretty sure that we are all aware enough of each other's skiing paradigms not to be "converted" by anything written here.

[Gary]

Jim I think it's more about poo pooing some really great skiers and what they MAY bring to the table.

In any event....Liam...as for stance...

I believe without a doubt "NO Stance width should be forced" period. The only exception I've personally found is skiing pow...where keeping the legs and knees close help keep the skis working together as a more stable platform. Each individual  I've ever worked with had a "natural" stance in which they could perform drills with great success. Moving them out of that comfort range resulted in what I'd refer to as "forced" skiing. It had no flow and the skier lost their natural balance.

G