Canadian Style!

[Liam]

You know what, if I had to pick an instructional system to wed my pedagogy and skier development to, it'd be CSIA.  I really like the way their top skiers ski--I think there is something worthy in a CSIA Level 4:  They possess Many elements of modern 'carvier' approach, but they haven't thrown out extensions, et al.,  I always think these guys look way better (to me, and that is a subjective opinion, of course) than the PSIA 'Go with a Pro' demonstrators.  They seem to find that subtle balance of strong, stable skiing with a just enough fluidity.

Do these guys differ radically from top PSIA skiers (ala Rogan)?  I think so.  Honestly, there are elements of their skiing that I am not really equipped to evaluate, and as these guys really do represent and promote an entrenched professional ski instructional model, I think it is fair to critique and evaluate them on a more rigorous level--which means this thread invites all comers.  Why not try to ski like these guys?  I wish I could.


Sebastien Michel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGrUlmmhZSs&feature=fvwrel    This Sebastian Michel is a pretty slick skier-check his bio-pretty interesting guy and coach of para-olympic/ world cup ski teams.  I love this short second video of 1 legged carving (obviously a key skill for the team he coaches):  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me3JG2fJ43k


This next video is a great technical video featuring, in order, Michel, and then JF Beaulieu (another really great CSIA demo guy) and then followed by a fairly long segment of Georgio Rocca (not sure what his connection is to the two cannucks in this video....I'm just not up on my world cup athlete bios-is he canadian?  Was he training at Lake Louise? Got me....you guys will like his stuff for sure, though)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop_Zc0x1Sc&feature=related

This is JF Beaulieu training in NZ-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzcaN17lbEc&feature=related 

This is pure Canadian skiing-Josh Foster has tons of these on line ski tips (worth watching just for the exposition-he's almost a caricature of a canadian ski instructor).   He's not as good technically as Beaulieu and Michel (who are the best in that system) BUT he is a pretty pure model of the CSIA way. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgb5HPLH-TM&feature=related

I just get a kick out of the Section 8 guy-as you know he has tons of videos posted up.  This one is kind of fun, making bigger turns through soft bumps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu_wqCipvZs&playnext=1&list=PL4E1D918866F2034B&feature=results_video  Tobin Section 8


Like I said, it's a matter of personal preference, but to my eye, the top Cannuck seem to find that appealing balance between being dynamic and being functional in their skiing.

I have less to say here because these guys have tons of their own literature to defend their chosen style of skiing.

[jim-ratliff]

Its a night and day difference because his technique is not the same. Compare the release movements as a starting point.

Max: This gets back to me wanting to get better at seeing movements in others skiing.
Rather than just saying "compare" can you give me a sentence about the two different releases? What you see and what you figure is behind the move.
Or anyone else? Todd, you did a masterful job (IMHO) on Rogan, what do you see.

[Svend]

Hey Liam,

I've always liked Josh Foster's style and his on-camera personality.  He is a regular on TV here in Canada, on a show called Ski Television (formely World of Skiing), where he has short instructional clips.  I posted this tread a while ago, where you can find 40+ such videos from the show, mostly of Josh, but a couple of other CSIA guys too: 

http://www.realskiers.smfnew.com/index.php/topic,1992.msg17512.html#msg17512

Foster also participates every year in the Ski Canada magazine ski tests -- four issues of gear reviews! WooHoo! 

http://skicanadamag.com/

And, BTW, "canuck" is spelled with only one "n" 

Cheers, and thanks for posting this.

Svend

[meput]

Jim,

Beaulieu and Michel are both using a flex/downward release. Foster is using an extension/upward release. Not as easy to analyze in the poorer quality Foster video and the different snow conditions.

[Liam]

Yeah, the quality on that is poor...here are some better Josh Foster Vids:

Here's Josh doing a bump tip video:

http://mpora.com/videos/anVnPWA0y

His advice is the usual-turn on the top variety, but I like his relaxed, smooth, no-nonsense bump skiing---some of the better 'instructor' bump skiing I've seen.  I like how he can narrate without sounding out of breath, too 

Josh foster skiing powdery crud...again, I like the way he skis this..this is probably the most similar style to how I ski (though he is better, of course!)  This is a pretty nice example of canadian instructor skiing:

http://mpora.com/videos/nR8PXft8Q


Oh, and here's a cool video of Beaulieu running a clinic for instructors at Interski...it's a little talkative at first, but it's got some telling skiing (his as well as the student/ instructors)-I like what he says about steering (while on the lift) and pivoting...

http://vimeo.com/19164435

Looking at his videos, I got to say, he's a pretty great skier (He's a CSIA Lvl 4, Head of the Mte. Saint Anne ski school and a race coach as well).

[meput]

Foster's up/extension is easier to see in the crud video, it is more hidden in the bump video with the associated flex/extension for the moguls.

Oh by the way, I'll take crud like that any day  and everyday  !!!

[Svend]

Guys, I think you'll find the video quality is much better on this site:

http://skitelevision.com/#!/media/26211/channel/8755/10-07-josh-foster-using-your-inside-ski

This is where you'll find the 40+ ski tips videos I was referring to.

[Liam]

Yeah, I don't really like his 'strong platform' tip in that video...it's too vague, in his other videos he talks about a narrow platform for crud, powder, bumps and trees, and that is pretty clear.  But establishing a strong platform by turning the legs??  That just doesn't sound cohesive.

On the other hand, I like his crud video above....is his 'surf the bottom third of the turn analogous to what Clendenin looks to do in these situations (drifting)?  Stance sure as heck looks similar, some of the movements do as well.

[Liam]

Here's another Josh Foster Video...the more i watch his stuff the more it grows on me.  I like his skiing, it's very attainable, ..anyway, this is a pretty straight forward 'ski tip' ...I think it makes good sense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gUlU0RV-u4


And here's another fun one on warming up and 'active feet'.  You know, this guy has 50 plus videos from big white and in every one he is either in powder or it is snowing.....has anyone ever been there, it looks like a very pleasant place to ski!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hNqF6xrpkI&feature=relmfu

I had some more thoughts on this style....the last style (Jibbers) what ever it's worth or lack thereof, is not really a 'Teachable' style.  You can learn and perfect park maneuvers, but I am unaware of any larger learning system to teach the free skiing jibber approach and would question the efficacy of such a program even if it existed.   The first style: 'wide, rotary, forward' atv style is very teachable, easy to master and does get people in to lots of different pitches, terrain and surface conditions.  However, like I said, it is not the way I want to ski, and I prefer mobility over stability as a guiding principle in skiing, though I do get the prevalence of that style.

The Canadians present another model, closer to my own goals and the self-image I have for how I want my skiing style to look.  I suspect it is fairly teachable and gets people to a certain level of competency n the terrain of resorts like Big White (which, to be honest, is the goal of most skiers, even fairly good skiers).  THis is the first style I've presented that has at least the potential to combine teachability with a pleasing dynamic diversity of movements.  I hadn't really thought much about the CSIA way before, but I have been watching their 'level standards' videos, and I like the end results.  Yep, they pop and extend in some circumstances, down weight flex in others (and, from what I can tell, the older CSIA 4's are more likely to bounce along than the younger ones...which isn't really that surprising).

I'm thinking I'd like to find a good level 4 CSIA guy and take a lesson-I'm curious to ee how this looks in practice.

[pbuddingh]

Irwin or Icanski over on the PMTS forum could comment on CSIA. Irwin teaches at Whistler and has introduced tip. flex CB/CA movements into the curriculum.

My 17 old son who grew up in local race clubs emulating these movements earned his CSIA 1 last season. He was told to "dumb it down", get off the front of your boots, widen your stance and not carve so much. One level 3 even made him show his boots and bindings looking for stance aids. The boy can slide his skis around with his park buddies at will, but it was hard for him to swallow this concept.

From watching on the sidelines this instructor appeared to ski with a flex release, but that's not what he taught his instructor candidates.

One more thought on this topic. I have limited mobility and tried for years to ski adequately with traditional CSIA methods. It was only after I learned tip and flex movements that I could ski comfortably in anything but perfect conditions. For some of us with limited athletic ability these "efficient" movements have made it possible to ski with joy.

[Liam]

Liam, why do you think JF's technique is more attainable than what is shown by Sebastien?

Anyone know why the top CSIA guys use different ski technique?

Oh, Max

I don't think it is 'more' attainable than Sebastien's, I just think that it is an attainable level of skiing (or a teachable level of skiing). 
Do you like either Michel's or Bealieu's skiing? I figure Foster is probably a little too poppy/ bouncy for your tastes (which is fair), but JF seems to be the leading light in the CSIA realm (sort of their Mike Rogan). 

Pbudding,

I don't know much about the Canadian system other than what I have gleaned from the on line sources...but those top CSIA guys (Tobin, Foster, JF Beaulieu) don't ski with a wide stance.  In fact, except in one video, all of Josh fosters videos teach a narrower stance.  And, even where they preach 'wide-stance' in their videos (on groomers), it isn't PSIA wide (in fact, it isn't very wide at all).

So I don't know how that reconciles with what your son experienced.  That wide stance thing is up there with 'finish your turns'-that is, something instructors say when they don't know what to say.  Is that what CSIA is preaching now?  Maybe all my posted videos are dated..  Anyway, like I said, Josh Foster's skiing and instructional style is growing on me. 

[meput]

http://skitelevision.com/#!/media/25014/channel/8755/10-02-josh-foster-strong-platform

How many readers agree with the tip above?

Max,
I will chime in, but you already know which point of view I am coming from.

Foster's "platform" with weight on both edges may work nicely with nice soft snow and no bumps. Change the conditions to hardpan/ice and any weight on the inside edge (beside side loading) can be a quick trip to the backseat, majority of weight on the inside ski and out of control.

The "platform" appears to facilitate "park and ride" type of skiing. Don't see much leg turning except to initiate the hockey stop.

Not a tip that I would agree with.

[Liam]

I could be wrong, but I believe he was their captain and clinic runner at interski (he is a csia lvl 4 and ski school director at Mt Saint Anne-a pretty busy eastern resort--though he also has a French National Instructor cert as well)...and the CSIA guys elsewhere seem to reference him a lot---but, if he's not involved or a leader/ demo guy in that organization (which I already admitted I don't really know much about), I stand corrected.   Is he not involved with CSIA??? 

In either case, I figured you'd like his skiing and somewhere I missed you had put up his video elsewhere.


Hey, I came across this CSIA video...you know where I said I would be surprised if people were teaching elements of the Jibber style (especially in free skiing)....seems I was again speaking too soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQpqHj6nQDk&feature=related fun


Edit add-one more video-youtube calls it CSIA free skiing...I think these guys are CSIA demo guys circa 2004..looks like pretty good off-piste skiing to  me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh4OlRf1P8U&feature=related

[meput]

Here's another Josh Foster Video...the more i watch his stuff the more it grows on me.  I like his skiing, it's very attainable, ..anyway, this is a pretty straight forward 'ski tip' ...I think it makes good sense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gUlU0RV-u4

Liam,

The fact that you enjoy watching Foster's skiing and style is great. It is the old adage: beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If I were watching him from a chairlift, I would be thinking, "look at the jack in a box, popping at every turn". We each have our own ideal of beauty and that is OK.

Not sure what the "happy feet" oops, "active feet" video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hNqF6xrpkI&feature=relmfu is beneficial for.

I see Michel's and Beaulieu's skiing style as different than Foster's. The last video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh4OlRf1P8U&feature=related is closer to the Michel and Beaulieu style of skiing rather than Foster's.

[Liam]

Max,

I didn't doubt you had posted those videos.

So...looking at these listed credentials (thanks, btw) we can comfortably say these three are all fairly significant and influential members of CSIA??? 



Oh, Canada!