Style and Technique Part Deux: Attack of the Jibbers

[bushwacka]

Funny, the people that have ski technique defend it. The people with none or little laugh at it and talk about flow, lines and challenging terrain.

so I have no technique at all? right......
I just dismiss it so easily because I know that technique with no strength, or atheletism is useless!! to accomplishing how I ski.

The non technique crowd say "what good is technique if you can't ski these rad lines"

I actually do not say that. Good technique helps a ton. These guys are younger than me, but I know I can still watch them fall apart on day skiing with me. Which isnt my goal well untill someone starts trying to be a hardass to me(which admittly I am a hardass), then I literally try to run them in the ground with no apologies. I would love to ski with these guys because A. they probably are fun to ski with. B. IF they are no I can still use superior technique and athleticism and ski them on super technical bump runs with thin cover and hardpack.

The tecnique group says "what good is skiing those lines if you look like that"

because its fun!! really no other reason.








Liam I am in the extra's of the new Meathead film in the extended Stowe Segment. Purple pants/yellow jacket skiing icey bumps at stowe.  Hopefully I can film with them this year on some better days.

FYI Radio Ron SUCKS at skiing! He get in due the personality and not on skiing skill.

the reason why a ton of people dislike me is the fact I am hugely confident and see humbleness as false modesty.  It hard to argue someone who is younger, more driven, and probably better than you....with that it doesnt make me right. it just makes anything I do wrong skiing less likely to bring me down. Athleticism matters a ton skiing.  There is a reason I run, mtb bike(roadies are freaking lame!), lift weights, and do yoga. It basically so I can continue to be on this high horse and know that I can back it up all the time.

[jim-ratliff]

Liam I am in the extra's of the new Meathead film in the extended Stowe Segment. Purple pants/yellow jacket skiing icey bumps at stowe.  Hopefully I can film with them this year on some better days.

FYI Radio Ron SUCKS at skiing! He get in due the personality and not on skiing skill.

the reason why a ton of people dislike me is the fact I am hugely confident and see humbleness as false modesty.  It hard to argue someone who is younger, more driven, and probably better than you....with that it doesnt make me right. it just makes anything I do wrong skiing less likely to bring me down. Athleticism matters a ton skiing.  There is a reason I run, mtb bike(roadies are freaking lame!), lift weights, and do yoga. It basically so I can continue to be on this high horse and know that I can back it up all the time.

Bush:  Since most of us here are old enough to be your father (or grandfather) I imagine that our experiences with life include some common things.
1. I'm sure that we have all met some very successful people; I don't remember any that bragged about how successful they were.  And it's not because of false modesty, it's called quiet confidence. I ran across a past Korean National ping-pong champion at Ft. Riley.  We had played together many weeks before he revealed that bit of information.  We almost never kept score of games, we just enjoyed hitting the ball back and forth.
2. Bad mouthing other people (such as "Radio Ron sucks") is seldom to never productive. I'm also sure that many of us have seen "corporate climbers" whose modus operandi was bad mouthing and blaming others. It gains you nothing but enemies.
3. Gaining enemies, over the long term, will pull you down (even if the facts or performance are on your side). I forget, how many forums are you now allowed to contribute to?  How many senior PSIA people have you publicly belittled or pissed off? Such things have a way of coming back to haunt you.

I've heard that you are a warm, giving individual in person; but your lack of forum manners and basic respect for others in your writing, negates any sense for most that you are a knowledgeable and decent guy.

J.

[Svend]

I have avoided jumping into this discussion, as I do most technique threads, but I feel the need to back up Liam on this one.  I think he raises some very valid points, and I appreciate his open-mindedness in highlighting some skiing styles that may be different from most here, but are nevertheless worthy of respect, or at very least, the absence of disdain and condescension.

Regarding the jibbers (new schoolers?) mentioned in this thread, I have to say that there have been times that I've observed young skiers like that away from the park, out on the groomed and off-piste, and have thought to myself, "Damn, those guys/gals can really ski!"  It may not be my style nor the way I learned it, but there is no denying that they are good, and can often ski exceedingly well in terrain that I feel awkward in.  It's not that I admire their technique, per se, as much as I like how loose and relaxed they are.  As Liam says, they're bouncy, playful, totally loose -- almost rag-doll loose at times.  Seems to me that that is the key for them -- see every terrain feature as a possibility for fun, and not as an obstacle or something to be feared, chill and enjoy the ride.  I gotta say, they sure look like they're having way more fun than most older folks out there. 

My youngest daughter actually skis a bit like the new schoolers (I hope I'm using that term correctly?).  More upright, balanced, loose -- but not floppy-loose like the guys in the first video.  The difference in her skiing is that she uses the front half of her skis and knows how to carve (and do it well) when the terrain is right.  But when she is off-piste, or trees, bumps, crud, etc.....she is totally relaxed and her technique changes completely to resemble the jibber's style.  No one who saw her ski would ever say she has bad technique, unless they were totally myopic and narrow-minded (or just didn't dare speak out for fear of incurring the wrath of her viking father  ).  And yes, she is athletic, just for the record.

My point is, that she seems to have taken the best of several different styles, and uses them to her best advantage depending on the terrain and snow conditions she is in at the time.  Truly adaptable, skis everywhere and in any terrain, and changes her technique to suit.  Isn't that the definition of a true all-mountain skier? She has far more innate ability than I will ever have, and I admire that in her, as I also admire that she can and does change her technique instantly, instinctively, to suit quick terrain changes.  Man, I wish I could do that.....!  But the bottom line is, she has a ton of FUN, absolutely loves to ski, considers it her no. 1 favourite sport, and strives to improve every year so she can explore even more of the mountain.

A further point to the above, is that I learn a lot from watching my daughter ski.  Relax more, stay more centered, balanced, look ahead, quicker reactions, less thinking.....  I think some of us could learn something from the young jibbers, too.  And why not? There's absolutely no hard and fast rule that says we can't adopt a different technique if it opens up more possibility for fun on different parts of the mountain.

As for the park crowd, I may not like their attitude at times -- some can have an arrogance and disrespect for other skiers on the slopes that is at best grating and annoying, and at worst downright dangerous.  OTOH, I have as much dislike for the pseudo-Euro-racer types who are equally arrogant and haughty in their own way, and can be just as dangerous on the slopes as that flying teenager straight-lining it back to the park.

So, thanks to Liam for this thread.  I've enjoyed reading the posts, and am looking forward to more open-minded and respectful discussion.

Cheers,
Svend

[Svend]

Bush:  Since most of us here are old enough to be your father (or grandfather) I imagine that our experiences with life include to common things.
1. I'm sure that we have all met some very successful people; I don't remember any that bragged about how successful they were.  And it's not because of false modesty, it's called quiet confidence. I ran across a past Korean National ping-pong champion at Ft. Riley.  We had played together many weeks before he revealed that bit of information.  We almost never kept score of games, we just enjoyed hitting the ball back and forth.
2. Bad mouthing other people (such as "Radio Ron sucks") is seldom to never productive. I'm also sure that many of us have seen "corporate climbers" whose modus operandi was bad mouthing and blaming others. It gains you nothhing but enemies.
3. Gaining enemies, over the long term, will pull you down (even if the facts or performance are on your side). I forget, how many forums are you now allowed to contribute to?  How many senior PSIA people have you publicly belittled or pissed off? Such things have a way of coming back to haunt you.


I've heard that you are a warm giving individual in person; but your lack of forum manners and basic respect for others in your writing, negates any sense for most that you are decent guy.


J.

Jim, thanks for saying that.  I second that sentiment.... 

Josh, I respect your contributions to our group here, and am grateful for your generous advice when I've asked for it - whether on mtn. biking, or ski boots, or whatever.  You offer a refreshingly different perspective, which I appreciate and attend to when thinking about equipment choices, etc.  But I gotta say that there are times when I just tune you out (see Jim's post, above).  And when you put others down with sneering disdainful comments, well, that just turns me off completely, and then I simply ignore you.  Just a hint:  if you want people to listen to you all the time (not just some of the time), then turn it down a few notches, relax, step away from the keyboard before clicking "Post", think about what you're saying, and re-write it if you think you can say the same thing, but in a less inflammatory way.  Or don't say it at all.  Some consideration and a dose of basic respect for others, is other words.

[jbotti]

Here are examples of freeskiers that have a race backgroung plus incredible athletic ability. Compare to the videos linked earlier. Can you see a difference?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vptvSMdYJdQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNTX55Rpk8w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYvM6j56IBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MdndSB5zTg

No those are some sick lines skied beautifully!!

[jbotti]

I have avoided jumping into this discussion, as I do most technique threads, but I feel the need to back up Liam on this one.  I think he raises some very valid points, and I appreciate his open-mindedness in highlighting some skiing styles that may be different from most here, but are nevertheless worthy of respect, or at very least, the absence of disdain and condescension.

Regarding the jibbers (new schoolers?) mentioned in this thread, I have to say that there have been times that I've observed young skiers like that away from the park, out on the groomed and off-piste, and have thought to myself, "Damn, those guys/gals can really ski!"  It may not be my style nor the way I learned it, but there is no denying that they are good, and can often ski exceedingly well in terrain that I feel awkward in.  It's not that I admire their technique, per se, as much as I like how loose and relaxed they are.  As Liam says, they're bouncy, playful, totally loose -- almost rag-doll loose at times.  Seems to me that that is the key for them -- see every terrain feature as a possibility for fun, and not as an obstacle or something to be feared, chill and enjoy the ride.  I gotta say, they sure look like they're having way more fun than most older folks out there. 

My youngest daughter actually skis a bit like the new schoolers (I hope I'm using that term correctly?).  More upright, balanced, loose -- but not floppy-loose like the guys in the first video.  The difference in her skiing is that she uses the front half of her skis and knows how to carve (and do it well) when the terrain is right.  But when she is off-piste, or trees, bumps, crud, etc.....she is totally relaxed and her technique changes completely to resemble the jibber's style.  No one who saw her ski would ever say she has bad technique, unless they were totally myopic and narrow-minded (or just didn't dare speak out for fear of incurring the wrath of her viking father  ).  And yes, she is athletic, just for the record.

My point is, that she seems to have taken the best of several different styles, and uses them to her best advantage depending on the terrain and snow conditions she is in at the time.  Truly adaptable, skis everywhere and in any terrain, and changes her technique to suit.  Isn't that the definition of a true all-mountain skier? She has far more innate ability than I will ever have, and I admire that in her, as I also admire that she can and does change her technique instantly, instinctively, to suit quick terrain changes.  Man, I wish I could do that.....!  But the bottom line is, she has a ton of FUN, absolutely loves to ski, considers it her no. 1 favourite sport, and strives to improve every year so she can explore even more of the mountain.

A further point to the above, is that I learn a lot from watching my daughter ski.  Relax more, stay more centered, balanced, look ahead, quicker reactions, less thinking.....  I think some of us could learn something from the young jibbers, too.  And why not? There's absolutely no hard and fast rule that says we can't adopt a different technique if it opens up more possibility for fun on different parts of the mountain.

As for the park crowd, I may not like their attitude at times -- some can have an arrogance and disrespect for other skiers on the slopes that is at best grating and annoying, and at worst downright dangerous.  OTOH, I have as much dislike for the pseudo-Euro-racer types who are equally arrogant and haughty in their own way, and can be just as dangerous on the slopes as that flying teenager straight-lining it back to the park.

So, thanks to Liam for this thread.  I've enjoyed reading the posts, and am looking forward to more open-minded and respectful discussion.

Cheers,
Svend

Have to agree on the freedom of motion/lack of tension part. The only problem is that the young jibbers were skiing pow mostly from the back seat, actually the way back seat. They may get away with that when they are in their teens or maybe into their twenties, but at some point the legs revolt. That's why when I watch them I have a hard time seeing the fun. If any of us (the older crowd on they forum) skied two runs in pow that far back we would be done for the day, and I doubt we would be having any fun as our legs were screaming!!

[Svend]

Have to agree on the freedom of motion/lack of tension part. The only problem is that the young jibbers were skiing pow mostly from the back seat, actually the way back seat. They may get away with that when they are in their teens or maybe into their twenties, but at some point the legs revolt. That's why when I watch them I have a hard time seeing the fun. If any of us (the older crowd on they forum) skied two runs in pow that far back we would be done for the day, and I doubt we would be having any fun as our legs were screaming!!

Agreed...no argument from me on that point.  I would say that when I watch my daughter ski, she is never in the back seat, but very centered and balanced, but definitely more upright than I would be in the same terrain.  It's more the relaxed posture and loose playful manner that I admire.  That, and the ability to transition so quickly and from pure instinct, from one type of terrain to another without thinking or blinking.  It's wonderful to watch someone so young ski with such natural flow.  She has a long and wonderful skiing life ahead of her.  Although we live in the east, and she is only 14, she is already talking about moving west to live near the Rockies, just so she can ski a few months more every year, and in bigger mountains. 

As an aside, we got her a new pair of boots last season with more forward lean (Salomon Instinct, basically the women's version of the Falcon line), and that has helped her skiing significantly.  Her previous boots were very upright and she was in the back seat a lot, and was complaining that she couldn't engage the skis properly when carving, nor balance properly in the bumps.  The new boots have moved her hips forward, but still allow her upper body to be  centered.  The difference her skiing was remarkable.  The much narrower last and stiffer flex didn't hurt either.

[jim-ratliff]

Svend:
Your daughter also has the advantage of lots of hours on ice skates; hard to believe that hasn't had an impact on her balance and edge control?  And, probably, most of the youg jibbers have skate boarded, and I imagine that has been an influence on their skiing style a well.

[bushwacka]

Jim, thanks for saying that.  I second that sentiment.... 

Josh, I respect your contributions to our group here, and am grateful for your generous advice when I've asked for it - whether on mtn. biking, or ski boots, or whatever.  You offer a refreshingly different perspective, which I appreciate and attend to when thinking about equipment choices, etc.  But I gotta say that there are times when I just tune you out (see Jim's post, above).  And when you put others down with sneering disdainful comments, well, that just turns me off completely, and then I simply ignore you.  Just a hint:  if you want people to listen to you all the time (not just some of the time), then turn it down a few notches, relax, step away from the keyboard before clicking "Post", think about what you're saying, and re-write it if you think you can say the same thing, but in a less inflammatory way.  Or don't say it at all.  Some consideration and a dose of basic respect for others, is other words.

the entire year at stowe, my trainers well not really since I never went out with them prety mush trash talked my skiing but never had the balls to actually say it to my face. All they did was make me more angry and mad. Getting DCL was as much for my own personal improvement as it was to say look I am good enough to those people, as well as the people on Epicski that wanted to keep me out of the instructional forum.

can we get back to Erik H/ skiing, one of the most impressive feats I have seen.

[jim-ratliff]

Josh:
Gladly, this isn't an "about Josh" thread.

A parting thought from a 65 year old with 3 1/2 grandkids.  Nof for the forum, but in your example above, think some on which was the cause and which was the effect.
grandpa Jim.

[Svend]

Svend:
Your daughter also has the advantage of lots of hours on ice skates; hard to believe that hasn't had an impact on her balance and edge control?  And, probably, most of the youg jibbers have skate boarded, and I imagine that has been an influence on their skiing style a well.

Jim, that is Mom's world.  For some odd reason, and despite the fact that most Canadians are born with skates on their feet (or at least have them as their first baby shoes), neither of our daughters has ever taken to skating.  A lot of their friends play hockey or figure skate, but our girls have had other interests.  I think for our youngest, the sense of balance just comes naturally.  She is like that on her bike too.  She will navigate over obstacles and terrain on the singletrack that is far from easy -- large boulders, rock gardens, berms and jumps -- but with the same relaxed, calm manner that she has on skis.  Completely non-plussed, unflustered, and almost never falls.  But...she knows her limits, and if there is terrain that she is not comfortable with, she's off the bike and walking, and has nothing to prove to anyone.  I can't wait to get that full suspension bike out here for her to ride, just to see what she will tackle then.

On that note, she will be ready for a new pair of skis this season too, as she has almost outgrown her present ones.  She still wants twin tips (for the high Fun Factor), but something a bit longer and more substantial.  An all mountain twin, mid-80's width, light weight but solid and stable, still agile and flickable, good on both hard snow and soft (ie. torsionally stiff; laterally compliant), touch of tip rocker perhaps.....  I'll start snooping around soon.  There is certainly no shortage of choice these days in that class.  Nordica, Fischer, Dynastar for the better mainstream brands; and then there are the smaller makers -- Line, Movement, etc. -- who are making some really nice light but strong skis.  Will check out Icelantic too, but I have the impression they would be too heavy (not sure on that, though; I don't much of Icelantic up here).  But, this topic constitutes thread drift, and is perhaps better left for another thread entirely.... 

[bushwacka]

Svendno idea how tall your daughter is but

check out some Dynstar Distorter. Shocking low price and a really really solid ski.  Pretty epicly good edge grip for a 87mm ski with some rocker and the camber/rocker combo kinda of felt like  there was some extra spring.

[Svend]

Josh -- thanks for the tip.  She is about 5'6" and still growing.  I am sold on Dynastar skis -- we have two pairs in our household; both great skis, and fantastic build quality.  They make some light, but very solid and stable skis, and the Sixth Sense series always seems to top the ratings of Freeskier and Powder mag reviews.  BTW, I have looked closely at their Slicer model as a possible choice for my wife as a western deep snow ski, and was impressed -- light weight, laterally flexy but torsionally stiff.  Seems to be identical to the perennially top-rated women's model, the Paradise.  She skis on the Exclusive Legend Powder now, and loves it.

For true hard snow carving, our daughter now has a pair of Fischer Progressor 8's, so the Distorter or something like it, would be a perfect complement.

[dan.boisvert]

Liam, I really like what you're doing with this series of threads.

This style never really appealed to me for a couple reasons:

1) I never saw the point of doing tricks on skis--or anything else, really.  It looked mostly like a way to show off that didn't appear terribly fun or interesting to me.
2) The between-tricks skiing looked like an orthopedist's wet dream.  For a lot of years, I've approached sports from the perspective of "the most mechanically efficient and joint-friendly way is the one for me".  The straight legs, backseating, and amount of active rotary in this style make me cringe.  Sure, the young and athletic can get away with it, but for how long?  It reminds me of boxers--impressive to watch the good ones, but there's only so much damage you can take before your body is wrecked and you're out of the sport for good.

Within the past year or so, I've turned over a new leaf on this front in my spring/summer/fall sport (whitewater kayaking), and discovered that stupid human tricks in a boat can be pretty fun.  Maybe I should give the skiing version another look, as well.  Thanks for raising the topic, Liam!

[bushwacka]

I think those that do not like doing tricks just can not do them.....

I can sound like you guys as well!