Tipping to turn

[bushwacka]

sweet pictures.

[Svend]

More on the subject of cornering skills...

Here is a good video talking about hip flexion, turning the body and looking ahead into the turn.  Well described, with some good, clear video.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/How-to-Hip-Flexion-Video-diamondback-2012.html

Back to Jim's original post, a small point that was not discussed, and what was the subject of an email exchange between Jim and myself, was the use of a twitch of countersteering to get the bike tipped and leaning into the turn.  This is a skill I learned when riding a road motorcycle (sport bike, way back in my early '20s), and was very helpful in achieving quick and assertive entry into a turn, as well as good transitions in a series of linked turns. 

What Jim was talking about in his OP, was that the inside handlebar (the one to the inside of the upcoming turn) is given a slight but quick nudge forward.  This acts to move the front wheel in the opposite direction of the turn, but just for an instant.  The bike then tips to the inside and leans into the turn in the desired way.  It takes a bit of practice to get over the counter-intuitive nature of this, but it really works well on mountain bikes for making snappy tight turns.

During our chat, Jim was describing to me his movements in turning, and mentioned that he pushes down on the inside bar.  It occurred to me that he is probably using countersteering and didn't even know it.  (Note that I use the term countersteering in a different sense than what BW meant in one of his posts, which talked about sliding a corner).

[jim-ratliff]

Given my initial focus in this thread, I'm very gratified to see someone talking about "carving" corners.  How "ski like"!

[bushwacka]

The Truth About Counter Steering

Instructions for Carving any Corner

like skiing you can not "carve any corner" you can carve a ton of them. but not everyone.

If you friend with Lee on facebook you see my question to him, I am guessing he is sane and will side with me.

[bushwacka]

yeah lee rocks. I just do not like to hear "carve any turn" whether it comes to bike or skiing.

If you could carve every turn then are handle bars wouldnt need to turn.....which would be a really curious experiment, although you actually do counter steer(not what  lee says it is, but actually turning away from the turn) in some carved turns, so that would suck if we could not turn our handlebars.

[Liam]

I think Lee's stuff is great as well.    The way he describes turning, balance, STAYING OFF THE BRAKES (!!!) leaning into a turn, going really low with your center of gravity, staying centered, leading with the head out, etc...and the picture at the very top of the chapter all speak to what I'm talking about. 

Yep, at really slow speeds, like a trials rider speed, you'll make all kinds of counter balancing moves to stay up right, but that's because the wheels aren't spinng and you have to use more static balance and not gyroscopic balance. 

I love how Lee really defines step by step flowing with the movement of the bike and not working against it at all.  A great analysis of speed and balance and body positioning.

Perfect technical description of how to really master turns.  Nice find, it is exactly what I strive for in turns (mountain AND road..I don't always pull it off, but it's what I'm after).

However, if you find a big rock in the middle of your perfect turn, you might want to eschew one's quest for purity and turn the handlebars 

[Liam]

Uh..max, that is one of the three options he describes (along with lean inside of the turn and lean exactly centered with the bike) each listed with pro's and cons. 

But to be clear, lee is NOT describing counter balancing (leaning your upper body away from the direction of the bike lean) as was advocated at the start of this thread nor is he echoing the very bad advice given earlier in this thread to 'try to lean the bike without moving or leaning your upper body'. 

In fact, as the pictures demonstrate you are leaning both your bike and your body in the SAME direction, but you are just adding a little (very little) more lean with the bike in order to weight the outside pedal.  Your mass and the bike are tilted, very actively, in the same direction-and you'll adjust those relative leans as intention and terrain demand.

But leaning into the turn is an essential cornering skill for Lee:


Lean into the Turn: " The faster and tighter the turn the more you have to lean" pg 83

LEAN TO THE RIGHT DEGREE
"To rail turns you have to fling your body inside of your tires Teasing gravity and momentum into a stalemate. The tighter and faster the turn, the more you must lean.  If you are falling to the inside, you are leaning to much.  If you blow through the turn, you aren't leaning enough." Pg88  That pretty much sums up my thoughts on cornering (that google book is a good find, max).

Oh, for those interested, be sure to read his bits on squatting low, staying centered, pumping (big skill few have) and choosing the right apex as these are all equally important in high-quality bike cornering.

[jim-ratliff]

But to be clear, lee is NOT describing counter balancing (leaning your upper body away from the direction of the bike lean) as was advocated at the start of this thread nor is he echoing the very bad advice given earlier in this thread to 'try to lean the bike without moving or leaning your upper body'. 

Liam:
Assuming your quote above is what I said, then I would like to correct myself.  What I do is pretty much what Lee is describing for his third option, i.e. "leaning the bike more than the body." This works well for me at the speeds that I ride.

And, to quote him:

The safest default is leaning your bike more than your body. You can never go wrong with that, for these three reasons:

My bolding in the quote, because "safest" works for me.

If I said leaning "away" from the bike, what I was visualizing was leaning less than the bike and didn't phrase it well. I do, at even lower speeds, lean the bike with almost no leaning of the upper body, and that works for me as well. In my mind, that is just a degenerative case of the above -- I'm leaning the bike when my speed is so low that I don't need to lean for balance.

"Teasing gravity and momentum into a stalemate" is an excellent description, but at my speeds I often need more edge (bike lean) and have very little momentum to offset gravity, so shift mass accordingly.

And I understand that there is a big difference in our riding levels and our riding speeds.


To me, this is exactly like counter balancing in skiing. You tip your skis by "leaning" your legs more while maintaining balance with a "less leaned" upper body. (I know PMTS'ers, bad terminology).

[Liam]

Just rediscovered this thread. 

I have to laugh a little that you deleted the posted photos from page 2-3 that supported what I said (of actual on trail cornering) and replaced it with a photo of Lee (I presume) in his driveway with an outrageously exaggerated, static position. 

But, more funny still, is that you don't seem to realize that he is NOT demonstrating cornering technique, but how to ride a switchback.  Though often used interchangeably a switch back is not a climbing/ decending turn, but a unique feature built on above grade slopes (over 15 degrees side hill) that require building raised mounds with steep exits at points of trail turns.  Not common at all in the east (out side of actual rd construction) but fairly common in the west (especially SoCal where the WPA and CCC built hundreds of them through the La Sals and beyond).  Anyway, switchback negotiating is a very specific type of 'corner' with a specific set of skills to negotiate cleanly.  And what he is showing, is a slower almost trials like move (which is why he can demonstrate it in his driveway).

There are two basic ways to ride switchbacks (oh, I should add, we are speaking specifically for negotiating DOWNHILL switchbacks)-one, as described in the page that accompanies max's photos above-and that is the more common way to be sure or 2. (and again, this is the more skilled, but also more direct way) -head right for the mid-apex of switchback calmly squeeze the front...and only the front brake (skidding on a switchback is a crime!).  Shift your weight back slightly and hitch pivot the rear wheel around and accelerate as soon as it touches down.  Trust me, if you learn this move, you'll use it all the time in switch backs, and elsewhere.

[LivingProof]

I've steered (pardon the pun) clear of this thread as I am not a mountain biker. I am a roadie and am interested in improving my turning skills, although, I ride some of the straightest, flatest roads in America.

I do agree that we need to lean into turns, and, I've been  playing with various body movements to develop more lean. What I've discovered is that using the Harbian "counter-acting" shoulder movement, that is turning my shoulders away from the direction of the turn, while remaining seated, lets me lower my inside shoulder very easily and tips my bike and body very effectively. The Harbian reference was done on purpose as ski philosophy is to develop the proper body movements to effect an outcome, which to me makes sense.

A simple test of the concept is to ride at low speed in a straight direction. Twist or pull your right shoulder backward and a little up, and, the bike will begin to turn left. Straighten out, then pull your left shoulder backward and a littleup, then the bike will begin to turn right. Using this technique going around simple 90 degree corners provides a lot of turning power and grip.

The "your mileage may vary" concept may apply to the above, but, it works for me. Again, I've almost never been on a mountain bike on terrain for which they are designed.

Thoughts?