Tipping to turn

[jim-ratliff]

Over the past 6 weeks or so I have come to realize that I was probably using too much rotary as part of my turns, and that I would have better control if I could tip more for my turns.  I also found that I could tip the lower half more without actually leaning my upper body with a little bit more upper body separation and that I could get my center of mass inside of the turn even though most of my weight was on my outside foot.
---  and somewhere along that process I realized how much turning a bike (as described above) sounded like --    skiing   

I didn't have a bike as a kid growing up, so I'm behind the curve of "long time" riders, and I've always admired how smooth Lynn looked leaning her bike way over taking a turn.
But now I'm learning how amazing it is to find that bikes (like skis) will turn themselves if you just tip them over.  You can tip them more and remain more upright (upper body / lower bike separation) and they will turn sharper. I usually support myself on the outside foot (the pedal that is down) but have my center of mass inside the turn (as I should when skiing). And so now, especially on single track, I'm trying to use less rotary of the handlebars and more tipping of the lower half.

And then Svend shared a little trick of turning left to go right (Doc Hudson to Lightning McQueen in "Cars" but that is different). More common and necessary on motorcycles it seems where rider weight is small relative to bike weight, but works on bicycles as well.  Feels very much like aggressively retracting the inside leg when skiing -- because your weight is suddenly well inside of your bike/outside ski.

I would love it if biking makes me a better skier, just by ingraining some of the feelings of movement into my simple brain.

[jbotti]

Staying with the "biking is like skiiing" thread, I think you will find that just as in skiing counterbalance plays a key role in high angle turns on the bike. You can only lean in so far and hold the line, but if you lean the bike in while keeping your weight to the outside of the turn, you can substantially and safely tighten the line.

[jim-ratliff]

YES. That us what I was trying to describe as upper body/lower bike separation.
In fact that saved my bacon last week. I came around a blind curve only to find that the radius was much tighter than I thought and I was headed right at the oncoming car on the opposite side of the road. 
Was able to push the handlebar down more and tighten the radius and get back where I belonged. A big screw up on my part, big pucker factor for me and the driver of the car.

[bushwacka]

most of the time while bike I tip to turn, heck sometimes I even counter steer to control the drift.

but in biking there are time where I have to point my handlebars where I need to go very much like skis. There are also time where I slide a tire(usually rear) on purpose to redirect myself. Every good to great MTBer knows this trick and how to use it to go faster. Basically every MTBer or Skier who can rally on steep imposing non groomed terrain knows how to slip a ski/bike and knows how to do it better than jsut about everyone else.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJXHCvKIU6c&feature=related watch these guys tons of tip to turn but also tons of redirecting done as well.


BTW bikers with less confidence than me will have many less turn they can just tip and turn.

[Liam]

Staying with the "biking is like skiiing" thread, I think you will find that just as in skiing counterbalance plays a key role in high angle turns on the bike. You can only lean in so far and hold the line, but if you lean the bike in while keeping your weight to the outside of the turn, you can substantially and safely tighten the line.

Not true. In fact, for true high level, deep, high cornering on a bike, the exact opposite is true. If you are counter balancing in turns, it's because you haven't learned to trust how wheels really work.  Gyroscopics play a role in biking that doesn't exist in skiing.  Just as on a racing motor cycle, instead of 'counter balancing' agains the turn, lean (shoulders, hips, head, hands..all of it) along the same axis as you tip your bike into a corner, go over much farther than you think you can handle, the moment you feel you are going to fall over-pedal (a half pedal in a reasonably high gear will do...on a motor cycle, you'd give it some throttle at this point)-you'll be amazed how quickly you regain balance and get righted.  It takes some practice, some faith and confidence, but you'll corner faster and deeper than you ever though possible.  That's the result of working with the momentum of the wheels and not against them (again, think about how a gyroscope works).  Adding torque and pedal power will keep you balanced.  Trust me (or at least trust Mark Weir, the king of cornering, who taught me this).

Also, bush's point on turning the bars and pointing the wheels (and drifting the tires) is well-stated, in more technical terrain, or tight terrain at any kind of speed, mere tipping won't be enough, there's a reason headsets's spin 360 degrees.

[jim-ratliff]

Liam:
Not really arguing, but I have found often that the corner is sharper than the speed I am riding, and artificially leaning the bike while I stay more upright for balance allows the bike to match the angle of the corner. Your example sounds like a way to corner even faster if you trust your bike? I don't think I am there yet.
So what you are generating is a bit of throttle oversteer which gets the rear wheels pushing in the new direction? Is this  similar to Bushwacka sliding his rear wheel to redirect the bike?


Also, John comes from a road bike racing background. I have a feeling that would be different from mountain biking in this respect?

[jbotti]

We should probably clarify betwen mountain biking (where the tires will hold on a serious lean in) and a road bike where too much weight on the inside will make the thin tires skid. I will say that with road biking counterbalancing is still an essential part of holding turns on tight lines.

[Liam]

No, road bikes will respond equally well to this technique.  Road bike tires and asphalt  make for a much more predictable, tenacious, grip than the best mountain tires and loose dirt and rocks can ever hope to (which is why even unskilled roadies can handle 50+ mph descents routinely while few mountain bikers, even very skilled riders, ever see the north side of 40mph)

The key is to not over-lean beyond the angle of the bike--keep your center of mass in line with the tipping axis and be prepared to CALMLY (and yes, the emphasis is important) apply pedal power at the points your feel your balanced is being compromised. And of course, observe the tried and true position of raising the inside pedal to keep more weight on the outside pedal (puts more downward forces to the tires in the belly of the turn...hey, that's pretty similar to skiing).

Yes, this is more of a racing technique, and yes it allows for sharper, deeper turns at greater speeds, and if that is not what you are after, than don't pursue this technique.

But for those of you who profess that love of 'hip inches off the snow carving', I thought you might want a  little tip on how to produce similar sensations on a bicycle.


This is a nice article of the limits and techniques of high speed road bike cornering.  It discusses the differences in mountain bike/ road bike tires, maximum angles possible and talks to what I said that staying centered and in line with the lean of the bike (as opposed to leaning beyond it or router balancing against it) is poor technique and actually limits control and traction in cornering situations:

http://www.bicyclesource.com/descending_and_cornering

The one point on which this article and I disagree is whether or not, like in motorcycles, you can apply power (through pedaling) in a deep corner.  I say with a high enough gear a half turn gives you what you need to right a sinking ship, this article contends that in really deep corners the problem of pedal strike is too risky to do this and all turns should be coasted.   In either case, we agree on the body positioning and the technique.

[jim-ratliff]

I will say that one of my thoughts, when you were saying 1/2 turn, was the pedal strike issue, and that may be a bigger deal on road than mountain bike depending on the mtb surface at the moment.

[Liam]

Nice video of Cancellara on a long twisty descent.  He's pushing it to catch the peloton, which he does, but you have to love those great lean angles (at points he even drops his should/ butt deeper into the turn than the midline), and he even does the old-school point the inside knee into the turns (which technical mavens will denounce as unnecessary, but every great descender I know still does it!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxXqQqAc2pA&feature=related


I'll add he's moving over 50mph through most of this and in excess of 60 in some parts..much like other 'euro-sports', people don't always appreciate the technical mastery these athletes possess in a sport that is mostly touted for it's over-the-top fitness demands.

[jim-ratliff]

Great video indeed.  And I point my knee to turn as well.     Actually surprising that you can initiate an easy turn just with that motion.  But that's clearly the extent of the comparison.
However, it looks to me that he is doing it John's way, his upper body is counter balanced out over the outside handlebar even on those turns where he drops his hips inside, and that looks to be a movement that allows the leg to be nearly vertical over the pedal??
Your earlier tip would have his upper body more inside the turn in the same plane as the bike wheels, if i got it correctly?
I especially liked some of his moves getting around and through the motorcycles and traffic, with a bit of subtle drafting of the team cars in the process. And then my mind boggles at the pain and consequences of a mistake.

[Liam]

Yep, I've seen that poor advice in the past max...but watch an actual world class rider ( the Fabian Cancelara video I posted will do) or any downhiller, or any MXer or racing motorcyclist and you'll see that they do lean with the axis of the bike especially if they wish to maintain their speed, their smoothness and their handling.

Poke around the internet you'll find plenty of hackneyed advice (just as in skiing, how many crappy instruction links have you refuted from so called experts?).  But watch the videos of top athletes and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[jim-ratliff]

Liam:  I disagree with your analysis of the Cancelara video? I see a lot of what I would call counter balancing. His inside shoulder is often over the center line of the bike, especially when turning right?
BTW, at about 5:20 I see him shift his butt completely off the rear of the seat.  Is that anticipating a hard braking section and he's getting the weight back so his rear tire doesn't unload under hard braking?

[Liam]

Liam:  I disagree with your analysis of the Cancelara video? I see a lot of what I would call counter balancing. His inside shoulder is often over the center line of the bike, especially when turning right?
BTW, at about 5:20 I see him shift his butt completely off the rear of the seat.  Is that anticipating a hard braking section and he's getting the weight back so his rear tire doesn't unload under hard braking?

The 5:20 is because he was getting tired and getting sloppy (notice he starts flopping his knees around as well to wake them up).  It also occurs in the flatter portion of this segment-he was getting cooked.

If you look at the 3:20-3:36 portion he really dives into those turns.  He is more committed on turns to the right than on the left (which is typical).

 I guarantee you he is not ' Leaning the bike without leaning his body (which is absurdly bad advice even for a kid learning to ride a schwin stingray!)'-he's riding the axis of the bike.  He is keeping his center of mass in the same angle as his outside pedal (a few times jumping a little inside that...he'd never do that if he wasn't chasing, however)  and he likes to lead with the old-school knee point (which, like I said before, I'm a fan of though most techno-nazis deride this affectation).

If you counter against the momentum of the bike you will exit turns slower, and be less able to carry speed through them.  The kicker is, you need to carry more speed the most are typically comfortable carrying through the turns to make this technique work. 

And of course, at some point in the turn you have to complete **** your mass and the tilt of the bike to change directions...expect to see shoulder, butts etc moving in that direction once the g's drop through the belly of the turn.

You've discovered step one, tip the bike to turn it...now move on to step two_ learn to work with the flow and momentum of spinning in line wheels and not against them.  You will flow like water through the twistiest roads (or trails).

Bicycles do not balance by countering...they balance by rolling forward...anything that disrupts the smoothness of that line or arc compromises, not improves, balance (not to mention speed and momentum).

Ok, I'm done, here...my best advice is spend a week working on what I have described and see if works for you...If not, well, most people get most of what they need on bikes through fitness and endurance alone.  But developing expert bike handling is the real bar raiser...even with road bikes.

Or don't,

[jim-ratliff]

Liam:  Thanks for the thoughts and the links.  There is a lot of fascinating information that popped up along the way.