Author Topic: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires  (Read 1645 times)

Svend

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2012, 01:29:58 pm »
Thanks Liam, that's good to know that I can mix-n-match tubeless and tubed.  I will get a new front tire soon, and will try running it tubeless.

As for your pressure recommendations, I guess a lot depends on the rider's weight.  Not sure your dimensions, but I am about 220 lbs., so 35 psi does not feel too hard to me.  Feels much more supple than 45 or 50 psi, which I run when I do a flat rail-trail ride.  Luckily, the Slant Six is a large-volume tire with reasonably sturdy sidewalls, so I have not had any pinch flats at 35 psi, even with hard hits on big roots.  OTOH, if you are my size, then your recommendations are interesting.  Much lower pressures than I would normally be comfortable with.

Everyone is talking about Stans sealant.  Is that the best? Or just the cheapest? What about the others? Caffelatex? Slime? Bontrager? (I have Bonty wheels).

jim-ratliff

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2012, 10:33:21 pm »
Liam:
Tell me what you mean by a "Stan's blowout"??


Svend:
Will share my thoughts as they accumulate.
I really like the X-King tires.

By the way, Stan's has a formulafor tubeless pressure: 
body weight/7 (+1 for rear, -1 for front)
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Liam

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2012, 05:04:04 pm »
Jim,

Anybody who tells you they've been using stand for years without any problems or flats is :

a.  lying
b. about to experience a stans blow out (famous last words).

When you gouge a sidewall or blow through a bead or just get a hole that's too big to reseal (and it doesn't take much)-and your tubeless system fails and won't reseal no matter how much you shake it, inflate (or even add more sealant)...you are then left fumbling with goo, removable valve stems and an often hard to remove (and reseat) tubeless tire on the side of a trail.   The remedy being popping in a tube.

The one thing about tubes, is that when they flat, it's a very easy and quick fix....just the opposite with the tubeless system.  Yep, you'll experience less problems, get to benefits of a better ride and lower pressures with tubeless (which is why I use them)  but when problems do occur, they tend to be far more significant than those experienced while using a good ole basic tubed tire.   


I've had slime tubes in the past, I've used caffe latex, and stand.  Stans is the best.  Stans on a stans rim is the double best.   Stans, true UST tire on a true use rim is the most bomb proof, but does not deliver the same ride quality of a stand rim system and a regular or tubeless ready tire.  Of course your results may vary...but my experiences seem pretty typical from what I can tell.

Svend, I am a 190lbs right now.  The Slant Six can't handle lower pressures with tubes so 35psi makes good sense.

jim-ratliff

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2012, 08:23:32 pm »



Liam:


Thanks.  Lots of good insight there.
I like your assessment of the lesser ride quality with a full UST setup (due to stiffer sidewalls on heavier tires)?
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Svend

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2012, 05:20:00 am »
What Jim said.....    Good info to know.  Thanks Liam.

You're right about the Slant Six -- it has significantly thicker sidewalls than the paper thin SB-8, but certainly not bomb-proof.  I won't be going lower than 35psi with tubes, at least at my weight.   ::)

I was reading last night about the need to top up the sealant every 4 months, presumably because the liquid is by then evaporating and becoming gummy and will no longer circulate to reach and seal a puncture.  But does the bead-rim seal also start to lose integrity and start leaking air? In other words, let's say I wasn't worried about punctures and didn't bother to top up the sealant.  Will the tire hold air for say, another year? Or two? (assuming I keep it pumped up, of course).

Basically, I have this unappealing thought that if I put a tire on and leave it on for two years, in which time I will have added about 200ml+ of sealant (if I follow the regular top-up recommendation), there will be an unholy mess of sticky 2-year-old glop all over the rim when I finally do take it off.  The alternative being that I have to strip the tire off every 4 months, clean it all out, then remount with fresh sealant.  I sure hope it just rinses clean with a garden hose. 

OTOH, if I can just mount it once, squirt some stuff in, and forget it for two or three years until I decide the tire needs replacing, then this is suddenly looking much more promising.


Liam

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2012, 06:14:15 am »
Sealant will completely dry up and cake the inner tire wall long before two years....and sealant (especially Stans because it has ammonia in it) does shorten sidewall life...I change tires every 6 months (and sooner depending on use). 

Supposedly the Caffe Latex, because it lacks certain chemicals in Stans, is less corrosive of tires...which may be true, I just didn't think it sealed anywhere near as well as the stand sealant.

All sealant based tubeless designs and uses still have a bit of that 'Backyard inventor' feel to them and tinkering around and being willing to suffer a few mishaps along the way is a part of the learning curve to get the most out of them.

Bring rags, degreaser wipes, a leatherman ('cause your valve stem might get 'glued in or up' and need pliers to remove or open) and a tube and an air source on every ride once you start using a sealant based system....eventuall y it will come in handy.


Svend

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2012, 03:56:10 pm »
All sealant based tubeless designs and uses still have a bit of that 'Backyard inventor' feel to them and tinkering around and being willing to suffer a few mishaps along the way is a part of the learning curve to get the most out of them.

Liam, your "backyard inventor" comment is most insightful.  Jim and I were musing about this over the past couple of days, and saying that if you look forward a few years, the tubeless bike tire will evolve into something like the car tire wrt. mounting, sealing, rim and bead profiles, etc..  There will be a single standard rim profile, standard valve type, standard tire bead profile to seat into the rim.  The tires will be thin and light but made of tough and airtight compounds that will not require any sealant.  The only sealant will be like when you get a car tire installed -- a single one-time swish application on the rim and bead when the tire gets mounted, that lasts years.  Now that makes sense. All this messing around with liquids will be a thing of the past. 

At present, UST is that standard, but it is not universally adopted yet, and has the drawback of being so much heavier and stiffer.  When they figure out how to make a sub-600g UST tire (or even sub-700g), then people like myself (the late adopters; fence-sitters) will really take notice.  That will basically remove all the obstacles that presently prevent us from going tubeless, which you've done a great job of highlighting for us. 

Thanks for your help with all my questions.  Very interesting feedback.

Cheers,
Svend

LivingProof

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2012, 07:03:40 am »
Life is so simple in the land of road bike clincher tires!  :-*

Svend

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2012, 07:54:42 am »
And much cleaner too!  :D

jim-ratliff

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2012, 09:49:53 am »



It seems that most reviews on road bike tubeless are equally enamored of the superior ride.
However, apparently development of tubeless tires is considerably more challenging on road bikes due to the higher pressures.  Hutchinson developed a carbon fiber bead for their tubeless road bike tires because the Aramid beads stretched too much at road bike pressures and would blow off.  Not as much of a problem for Mountain Bikes, but may explain why Bushwacka was saying not to run high pressures with ghetto tubeless for fear of blowing the tire off the rim.


In a 2006 article Hutchinson recommended their "StickAir bead lubricant" for mounting, and also recommends against the use of latex based sealants.


Hutchinson recommends 90-95 psi road bike pressures, and said that their tires behave much more like automobile tires, that even with a puncture it results in a slow leak and you can often still finish the ride.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 01:21:48 pm by jim-ratliff »
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bushwacka

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2012, 06:16:57 pm »
tubed road bike tires? yeah dont run those either.....

I have tublulars and I couldnt see running a tubed road biked tire. again grip, comfort, speed and more reliable. We waste so much time on forums like these any who that whats a some time out of your days to glue some tubulars. or set up some tubeless tires.

jim-ratliff

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2012, 09:57:31 pm »
I think my boss would object to  me working with bike tires during my 10 minute restroom break?
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midwif

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2012, 10:27:28 am »
I remember those road bike tubulars!
I am sure that the technology has improved, but I see absolutely no reason to go tubular again.
Clinchers have improved in weight and endurance.
I almost never get flats and they grip fine for what I am riding.

BW almost has me convinced on the mountain bike tubeless thing though.
Giving it a try. May need to upgrade my tires for stronger side walls.

Looking forward to biking this weekend with lower pressures and if I can feel the difference.

Lynn
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 01:19:46 pm by jim-ratliff »
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meput

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2012, 07:01:15 pm »
I have avoided posting on the thread since my mtn bike experience is essentially zero. But BW opened the door:

tubed road bike tires? yeah dont run those either.....

I have tublulars and I couldnt see running a tubed road biked tire. again grip, comfort, speed and more reliable. We waste so much time on forums like these any who that whats a some time out of your days to glue some tubulars. or set up some tubeless tires.

When I was making the decision to go with tubed vs. tubeless/stan's mtn bike tires, my shop guys made a very salient point. They said "look what you ride for tires on the road. The difference between tubulars (sew-ups) and clinchers is the same as tubeless/stan's vs tubed mtn bike tires." Needless to say, I went with the tubeless/stan's.

Played with clincher road wheels for about 3 yrs, 7 to 10 yrs ago. Had decent wheels, Mavic kysriums and Topolino's. Ran decent tires with Michelin RacePros being the best. 6 yrs ago, my wife surprised me with a pair of Bontrager XXX carbon tubular wheels for Christmas (got to love her  ;D). I haven't ridden clinchers again. My old love with tubulars from graduate school yrs was awakened. They ride smoother, more lively and are more responsive. My good wheels have Veloflex carbons which give me 1700 - 2200 miles per tire. My everyday wheels are Bontrager Race X  with Conti Sprinter tubulars. They give me ~2500 miles per tire.

I have followed the tubeless road tire development with interest because I carry a spare tubular when I ride any distance from home. Carrying a spare tube, to be a back up, would appease my weight weanie nature (road bike weighs ~ 14.5 with the good wheels).

Lynn, I chuckle at your comment 
I remember those road bike tubulars!
I am sure that the technology has improved, but I see absolutely no reason to go tubular again.
Clinchers have improved in weight and endurance.
I almost never get flats and they grip fine for what I am riding.

Look at all the skis that you trialled to find a replacement for the Every thangs. You were looking for a ski that gave you  improved performance and the same comfort that the old Heads gave you. Now, say you wanted a new road bike or improve the old one, to give you improved performance and good comfort over what you are currently riding (I don't know what you are currently on for a road bike). I think the least expensive option to significantly improve your ride would be to get a decent tubular wheel/tire combo (~$1,000 total). I have put my set of aluminum tubular wheels on friends bikes and they have all been significantly impressed over their clincher wheels.

Give me my road tubulars and mtn tubeless; or give me skis  ;)

jim-ratliff

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Re: Jim (a non-racer) and tubeless MTB tires
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2012, 09:51:01 pm »
Meput: I never let lack of knowledge restrain my posting, so feel free to post away. I'm curious though, do you use Stan's in your tubeless mtn bike tires?  What about Stan's in your car tires?  I'm skeptical of the value of comparing car and bike tires. But I also remember a time when car tubeless were much more prone to flats and tubeless plugs.

What is your opinion of road tubeless??

Lynn's Bike - 8 year old GT Titanium frame, Dura-Ace components, Zipp 404 carbon clincher wheels, Michelin or Continental 4000s tires.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 08:58:00 am by jim-ratliff »
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