Author Topic: Boot shell fit criteria (Read 1820 times)

Svend · « **on:** April 13, 2012, 06:13:04 am »

Further to my Kypton thread, it looks like I'll be doing some boot testing during my upcoming visit to Banff, in search of a stiffer pair. There are some good shops there, which have some decent product and lots of narrow-lasted performance models on hand. Gary bought his RX130's there last year, at one of the only places in North America, apparently, to have a pair in his size. But I digress....

In past, when shell fitting a boot, I've really only been looking at two criteria: length (max 1-1/2 finger gap at heel, w. toe touching front shell); and forefoot width (about 1/8 inch wiggle room for a snug fit). The rest of the fit, such as snugness in the heel pocket, instep and cuff, I've been judging with liner in the boot. And if the initial fit seems good, I leave the boots on for about 20 - 30 minutes to see if any serious hot spots appear, circulation is good, etc.. And I test flex pattern, general alignment.

In the previous thread, HighAngles hinted at other shell fit things to check out. So, how do I properly evaluate a good shell fit in those other parameters? Is it possible to assess good fit in the heel, instep and cuff with a shell fit? What else do I need to look for as predictors of a good fit? Does anyone have a well-worn set of criteria that they use? If so, let's hear it!

Thanks all....

Gary · « **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2012, 07:59:27 am »

Svend....in the past few years I've seen manufacturers now shaping the interior of the boots more. They are more like a human foot rather than a block of ice. So one thing I look for is how the shell fit conforms to the entire foot shape.

I also look to see how the boot strap connects to the boot...either shell contact or liner contact.

One thing and I'm not sure if it still applies mechanically speaking..is that the inside pivot screw should be even or lower than the outside pivot screw. I was told years ago that that provided better lateral forces to the inside edge of the ski.

Another factor I find for me is that I seem to get better performance with a boot/cuff that's a bit higher. I find this out recently with the transition from my Head Raptor the the Lange RX Pro....in this case , the liner was higher and I just feel much more connected and find myself having shorter movements fore and aft to get ski response.

Another thing I look for is solid contact of the upper cuff around the lower leg. Moving the feet and ankles moves the lower leg and so on up the chain. Having good contact on the inside and outside of the leg is paramount.

Tracking I think is critical also....if knees are moving correctly...since our bodies are all different....findin g the right boot that allows a good stance and good tracking or at least one that's adjustable is very important.

Make sure any new boot try ons includes your footbed. I always shell fit with the liner out but my footbed in the shell.

Hope this helps some Svend....good hunting....g

Svend · « **Reply #2 on:** April 13, 2012, 08:39:32 am »

Thanks G. That's good advice. Esp. about the cuff height and hinge positions. There are a couple of boots that seem to have tall cuffs, like the Salomon X-3, Lange RS/RX, while others are much lower, and won't work for a guy my height. I will also look for medial position of the foot relative to inside edge of ski, and any boot board canting (which was an issue with my old Langes) or other outward bias of the shell/bootboard combo.

But what about other shell fit things? Are there any other things to look for, such as side-to-side gap in heel pocket? Gap around lower leg at the cuff? Shape and room in the Achilles area? Or are those best judged with liner in?

Gary · « **Reply #3 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:05:53 am »

Svend....with regards to the overall shell fit..for the foot, contact should feel equal around the foot....actually I like to do this with without a sock on to get better feel points through out the boot. This includes heel, the last area, side of foot, 6th toe area,...starting with a boot that's 95% there is a big plus. Sometimes mod's in the 6th toe or ankle bone areas may be required but essential fit areas I think are the forefoot and heel. Also look for even spacing in the upper cuff when you stand in the shell. Most top end boots, the cuff can be tipped one way or the other but it's helpful if the shape of your lower leg fits the shell with even spacing.

The race performance or high performance boots all have tighter tolerance than lower end boots. I've found that if the heel fits in the pocket well, the Achilles area fits too but keep in mind that spacing of the entire lower leg should be even all around the upper cuff.

Finally, I think it's got to be done without the liner for the best fit. The liner can hide a ton of issues. Having someone that has an eye of what to look for, a good boot fitter is extremely helpful. Standing in the shell with the foot bed in, in your ski stance, arms at the pole carry position, looking straight ahead...."be one with the force Luke"...listen to what your feet are telling ya...!

best, g

Svend · « **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:26:56 am »

Aha! That's the info I was looking for. Thanks G. Since you'll be with me in Banff, you can be my second set of eyes. I recall last year in Banff, spending a lot of time on my knees stuffing my hands down the back of your new Langes checking for shell fit. At least you were man enough to have clean socks on.

This year it's your turn. Bring a clothes pin for your nose

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #5 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:49:58 am »

If you know you are going boot hunting, buy a 1/2" or 3/4" dowel road 6-12" long and use that rather than using Gary's fingers. Round off the tip of the dowel rod if you want it to be a bit more comfortable.

The dowel rod will also stay the same size -- a finger compresses with a close fit, but you never quite know how much it compressed.

Svend · « **Reply #6 on:** April 13, 2012, 10:24:55 am »

Some good tips. Thanks guys. I'm sure Gary will be grateful not to have his fingers pressed into service.

The expertise of bootfitters varies greatly between shops, and the odds of finding a shop with both a good bootfitter and a shell that fits my foot is therefore diminished. I'm trying to equip myself with as much knowledge as possible beforehand, so I can both judge the experience of the shop staff, and make my own assessment if need be.

This whole exercise will take time, and I don't expect to come home with a new pair just yet. But at least I'll be a little wiser as to what might work and what won't.

Gary · « **Reply #7 on:** April 13, 2012, 11:29:04 am »

How cool would it be if there was a web site that you could get a 3d picture of what the shape and dimensions are of the insides of varoius boot...maybe someday.

Max brings up a good point about instep....another critical area for sure. I remember there was a pair of boots that fit you like a glove Svend...up in Toronto one day we were exploring...UNTIL you buckled the instep...I hadn't seen a grown Viking cry in years but there it was....

We'll have some fun exploring the shops and trying on a bunch so you get a sense of what's out there...Yes and thank you for all the input last season when I purchased my Langes....your help was instrumental but mostly mental $:-\$ to helping me get fitted.

We ride Kemosabi! Let's geter done!! G

HighAngles · « **Reply #8 on:** April 13, 2012, 06:17:02 pm »

I believe in being the "educated and informed" consumer. I myself have experienced (and heard many stories from friends about) problems with even some of the most reputable boot fitters available in this country. This even includes the "skunkworks". I won't get into my issues here or the others I'm aware of because I don't believe that disparaging professionals on a public forum serves any useful purpose.

Yes, you may be able to put yourself in the hands of an expert and come out OK, but the trend is that consumers must watch out for themselves (these days even for your medical care).

Anyhow, so Gary has covered the subject really well already. I'm glad he pointed out a VERY important aspect of shell fitting that almost every boot fitter misses - a shell fit must be done WITH the footbed in the shell. Your footbed (hopefully it's a custom one) changes the shape of your foot (especially in shortening the overall length). Plenty of so-called boot fitters will shell fit, but how many of you have had the fitter actually use your footbed when doing so?

For me the key fit areas are the ankle, heel, and instep (I also prefer a wider toe box so that my toes don't get pinched). It's the shape and alignment of the ankle pockets, width of the heel, and height of the instep that makes or breaks a boot for my feet.

It's also important to understand where in the size distribution for the manufacturer's model lineup, the shell components actually change size. Many times the shell components do not change size between 2 (sometimes 3) given shell sizes (and remember shells are only available in whole sizes, the half size crap is just liner or insole trickery). This means that the same size upper cuff may be used for 2 or 3 shell sizes. I discovered this issue a number of years ago when comparing 3 sizes of Flexon/Full Tilt shells. Nothing changed but the overall length between the 27 and 26 shells, but drop down to the 25 shell and then the rear cuff and tongue were smaller and the shell was significantly narrower, not just shorter. The same holds true for the Head Raptor series - the cuff component is the same in the 25 and 26 shells, but is larger in the 27.

So what does this all mean? It means that you shouldn't get too hung up on the overall length of the shell when shell fitting and really concentrate on the other fit areas. Insist on trying multiple shell sizes. Be sure to try the shell that is definitely too small, but really assess if it is. It's relatively easy to make a plastic shell get some additional length or some additional width. So go small (or don't go at all).

Svend · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:58:02 am »

H-A, once again, thanks for an informative post. I didn't know that about the cuff sizes being the same for different shell sizes. Something to watch for -- good one.

I'm good with the advice about trying different shell sizes. I've had shop guys want to put me only into the shell size that showed on their foot measuring device. When I asked to try and then told them that the next shell size down actually fit better, they thought I was nuts. Didn't buy boots there, obviously.

Guys, if I were to summarize all the things to look for in a good boot fit, this is what my list would be....

Shell fit (all assessments done with footbed in):

1) Length -- 1/2" to 3/4" behind heel, toe touching shell end

2) Width -- 1/8" wiggle room, side-to-side at forefoot, preferably less at heel area for snug fit

3) Instep height -- hard to judge, I think, without liner in to change foot height off bootboard, but if there is contact or almost no gap at instep with only footbed in (no liner), then it's too low

4) Ankle pocket -- small gaps, 1/8" or so; no contact points, esp. not at hinge rivet; well contoured around ankle bones

5) Cuff width -- hard to judge without buckling boot and/or liner in; but looking for a slim fit with no gaping spaces

6) Cuff height -- taller is better for a guy of my height (6'2")

General boot design things to inspect:

7) Cuff hinge locations -- evenly positioned, or offset?

8 ) Bootboard canting and ramp -- flat or canted outward? Ramp angle?

9) Relative position of lower cuff flap to instep area of shell -- located well up? or low and touching instep area? (potential pressure point when flexed)

10) Contour shape of shell -- updated design, anatomically more accurate?

11) Position of medial part of foot to inside edge of ski -- foot centered? outward?

12) Stiffness/thickness of plastic at medial part of boot

13) Shell shape inside boot where sides of feet meet shell -- rounded or flat?

14) Liner thickness and density; quality of materials

15) Cuff alignment adjustment -- both sides? one side only? none?

Other fit things to check with liner in:

-- Alignment/canting in neutral stance

-- Alignment/canting flexed forward, tracking of knees

-- Range of motion

-- Flex feel -- progressive/smooth, hard/uneven, sharp end stop

-- Hot spots, compression of instep

-- Toe room when in neutral stance vs. flexed forward

That's all I can think of for now. Am I missing anything? If so, post back. If something else comes to mind, I will edit and update.

Message to moderators: how about using the above list as the starting point for a Sticky in the Gear section? With collaboration with the gang here giving their input, collectively we could come up with a pretty decent guide on "How to Shop for New Boots". We could even include a pros & cons list of 3-piece vs. 2-piece shells.

Svend · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2012, 07:51:08 am »

That's good info. Thanks Max. I'll pack a couple of short dowels for my trip.

A couple of other quick questions:

Bootboards -- do hard vs. soft bootboards make any difference to performance? Or is this just a comfort thing, for absorbing vibration, etc.?

Plastic type and stiffness in cold -- I have heard that some boots are made with plastic that does stiffen up on cold days as much as others. Does anyone know which is which? There seems to be two different kinds -- PE and PU plastic.

Svend · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2012, 08:24:48 pm »

I haven't started the new boot search yet. All the stores around here moved to bikes a month ago because of the early spring. But I will be in Calgary and Banff for the next two weeks on business and to ski (naturally), where it's still full-on ski season. There are a few really good shops out there, and I will have plenty of time to do some testing. Hopefully, being late season, they will still have stock in my size.

I tried a Raptor Supershape version (the red ones) a few years ago, and they fit well. Very snug overall, nice flex pattern, solid feel. But if I recall, the instep was too low for me, which ruled them out. I may try a pair again, but they are kind of farther down on the list.

I have not tried any Nordica boots, but the Doberman 130 is high on my short list for sure. They also have a big-mountain version of the Doberman called the Girish, which is a 130 flex, 98mm last, which looks interesting. In the pics online, the shell seems slightly different than the other Doberman line -- taller cuff, more anatomical heel area. I will look for those out west. And, LP mentioned a new Doberman for 2013 called the Patron which sounds terrific and looks killer (see Phil's review on Epic; he says they fit almost exactly like his Inferno 130's, so they should be a great fit for me too as I am in that same shell now).

Here's my short list:

-- Lange RX130 / Rossi SI 130 (exact same boots)
-- Tecnica Inferno 130
-- Fischer Soma RC4 130 (tried an X-120 some time ago, but instep was too low; want to try them again as their shell has since changed)
-- Nordica Doberman 130 (any of their 130/98mm models, but if the Girish has a taller cuff it will be preferred)
-- Salomon X-3 130 (tried this 3 years ago, but had a bad hot spot right at the hinge rivet on my ankle bone; no fix for that; otherwise great fit, but the shell had a weird deformation pattern when I flexed forward which was off-putting; I want to try these again)
-- Dalbello Krypton Pro 140
-- Head Raptor 130

I have not tried an Atomic race boot yet. Anyone know anything about these? Worth a look?

Dalbello Scorpion seems like the cuff is too low, so that will likely not work.

Any comments on the above are welcome....

Gary · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2012, 08:01:45 am »

Hmmm......My only question is should I have two drinks or 3 before I join Svend on his "next boot" search in Banff next week.

Hmmmm.....better make it three before and 3 after!

Should be very informative. I'm sure we will wear out the towns boot guys!
The Quest for the Holy Grail of Boots for the Viking begins.

Svend · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2012, 08:54:47 am »

Ha! If it's anesthetic you need, I will supply as much as you need.

But it will be good to have a second pair of eyes scoping this out. And we can recharge with an ale between shops, as this will be exhausting.

Cheers,
Svend

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #14 on:** April 16, 2012, 10:07:38 am »

Quote from: Gary on April 16, 2012, 08:01:45 am

Hmmm......My only question is should I have two drinks or 3 before I join Svend on his "next boot" search in Banff next week.

Hmmmm.....better make it three before and 3 after! Should be very informative. I'm sure we will wear out the towns boot guys!
The Quest for the Holy Grail of Boots for the Viking begins.

Gary:
Are you planning on bringing along your battery powered Dremel tool with the custome "boot grinding" attachment?
No reason not to make some minor adjustments at the store, just to see if any hot spots can easily be remedied?

Svend · « **Reply #15 on:** April 16, 2012, 10:28:52 am »

Quote from: max_501 on April 16, 2012, 09:58:16 am

Keep in mind that each boot will affect your fore/aft and lateral alignment differently.

Gary's lateral alignment will definitely be affected when we do the shop crawl in Banff

Gary · « **Reply #16 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:44:25 am »

Hey Jim....you know me well.."have drummel will travel"...in this case....there's an alert at the border that restricts me from entering Canada with that tool...

Just have to make due I guess...

Shop CRAWL....eek....

As long it's puncuated by a nice cold glass of lemonade!

Max's point is well taken....I've always felt that my stance, balance and that feeling of being stacked is when buckled up, letting the knees relax, hands in pole ready position, I feel right over the top of my arches with equal pressure on the tongue and back of the boot.

Still so many other variables to consider but I think that's another must factor to consider.

Ok gang.....I just might need a boot intervention....qui ck...I need all your phone numbers!

G

HighAngles · « **Reply #17 on:** April 16, 2012, 10:08:41 pm »

The Inferno 130 stock liner has a design "flaw" with the seam where the upper plastic cuff meets the lower portion of the liner. Everyone I know that skied that boot had the same problem (including PhilPug and Segbrown). It got so bad for Segbrown that she replaced the liners with DFP brand Intuitions.

LivingProof · « **Reply #18 on:** April 17, 2012, 06:14:14 am »

Quote from: max_501 on April 14, 2012, 08:05:40 pm

I have found that liners are typically shorter than the inside of the shell which makes a proper shell size feel too small. So I stretch the toe box of my liners before the 1st use. Usually takes quite an effort with the Heads as they are fairly beefy liners.

Wow, the above hit me like a ton of bricks. Never even thought about the aspect of liner length being short and may need stretching. When I tried on boots this winter with the intent on downsizing, the tips of my toes just crunched the boot front and no way would I consider going through the pain to ski them.

Max, thanks for the thought. It will expand my thinking next time I go boot shopping.

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #19 on:** April 17, 2012, 09:55:05 am »

But it may be worthwhile to put the liner on when not in the shell. My feet always felt tight in the Head Liners, even when they were out of the shell. I think it was a smaller liner and the stretch material around the toe.
When I upgraded to ZipFit, I told Diana I could use just a bit more room in the front, and she could see through the translucent shell that there was space in front of the liner.
My toes are MUCH more comfortable with the ZipFit. Don't know whether it's the lower volume liner, or a slightly larger liner, or it molded better when heated -- whatever, it worked.

Svend · « **Reply #20 on:** April 17, 2012, 06:00:45 pm »

Good tips -- thanks guys. My wife's Langes may benefit from a liner stretch on one foot which is a tiny bit longer than the other. A shell punch helped a bit on that boot, but she could still use a bit of room there. This is something I will try before next season.

HighAngles · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2012, 07:07:51 am »

When I first discovered the issue of the "short lasted" liner in 2001 I got pissed - really pissed. I felt like I was basically being ripped off and I was even more mad at the boot fitter for not pointing this problem out. I was amazed to learn that many (if not most) manufacturers short last their liners. Why? They say that it's so that the liner doesn't accidentally bunch at the toe during the production process (when the liners are put into the shell before packing and shipping). I think it's a bunch of crap.

The problem I had with that short lasted liner is what started my journey toward always using a replacement liner that better fits my foot and the shell. I have many pairs of brand new stock liners sitting in a bag in my basement.

Svend · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2012, 08:49:12 pm »

Lange is claiming that they make a "true lasted liner" for their upper end boots. Does this mean no short lasts, or is it just marketing babble?

HighAngles · « **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2012, 07:19:27 am »

Svend - that's actually true. In recent years some of the manufacturers have actually gotten a clue about the problem with short lasted liners. I can't recall off-hand the ones that have improved in this area, but Lange definitely is one of them. The new Lange boots are really nice. Their new shell shape fits my foot much better and it was a close race between Lange and Head for my purchase decision last season.

HighAngles · « **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2012, 07:22:59 am »

Quote from: max_501 on April 18, 2012, 08:39:01 am

Do you find that the replacement liners are all sized properly or do you go up a size?

Max - most of the time I do upsize my liners one full size. I have always done this for Intuition liners and also did it for my first two ZipFit liners, but my most recent ZipFit liners (purchased through Harb's shop) are actually matched to the shell size. I really thought they would end up being too tight, but Chris B. convinced me that once everything came together I would be happy with the result and I have to admit he was right. I think the main reason was that I had downsized another shell size with the Raptors and going with the smaller ZipFits helped me get into those shells without needing any shell work.

Svend · « **Reply #25 on:** April 21, 2012, 08:25:26 pm »

Quick update here. Tried some boots at a few Calgary shops today, including boot guru Lou from Epic (all 130 flex, 98mm):

Nordica Girish, Doberman shell all-mtn. boot. Pros: excellent fit all around, esp. in the heel pocket which is cupped nicely around the heel holding it very snugly in place; snug all over; no pressure points; they felt like they were made for my feet. Cons: at 130, this boot feels about the same stiffness as my Tecnica 110's, at least in the warm indoors. For this reason, I don't see much of an upgrade here, despite the best-in-test fit. Will try to find a race-type Dobie to see if it's any stiffer.

Salomon Falcon. Pros: exceedingly snug fit in the cuff, heel and instep. Cons: Fit in the rest of the boot was kind of all over the map; too low in the toe box; too stiff, too little range of motion, even in a warm shop; alignment felt odd, like they made me bowlegged. Weird overall fit - there are better options for me.

Tecnica Bodacious. Josh was right, this boot is is junk. Nothing much good to be said about it. Felt like a 100mm shell; same stiffness as my Inferno 110's; weird forward flex pattern; cheap materials. Very disappointing from Tecnica.

Head Raptor RS. Tried these at Lou's shop. Pros: almost perfect fit all over, esp. in heel and forefoot; stiffness felt just right (again, with the caveat of being indoors); very nice flex feel; good range of motion; great power strap. Cons: instep too low, but Lou said he could easily fix it; slightly less snug in the lower cuff than I would like, but I assume this can be fixed with moving the buckle and perhaps shaving a bit off the lower flap. Not sure I like the fish spine buckles....kinda fussy to handle. So far, this was the best of the bunch. Had almost everything going for it. And they don't seem as heavy as the Raptors from a few years ago. Nice.

Will check out some more shops in Banff in the coming days. But tomorrow is a ski day at Louise. Can't wait!

Cheers,
Svend

HighAngles · « **Reply #26 on:** April 21, 2012, 11:57:39 pm »

Svend - I actually like the spineflex buckles on the Raptors. For whatever reason, when I had tried 2-piece boots before I got the Raptors, the typical buckles would accidentally re-catch on the macro ladders when I was taking the boots off. This happened to me a number of times and I felt like I almost broke my foot once cause I thought all the buckles were undone when I was removing my boot. I've never had this happen with the spineflex. Whether or not the spineflex buckles actually do what Head says is debatable.

HighAngles · « **Reply #27 on:** April 22, 2012, 04:57:35 pm »

Another comment on instep height - be careful about being misguided in this fit area due to your current footbed and also the liner. A good ski boot fit is the marriage of a shell, liner, and footbed. I can't tell you how many combinations I've experimented with over the past few years. My wife would tell you it's endless and that her husband is insane. My current footbeds that I use in the Raptors have been ground down and the sides shaved so that they have barely any volume. There's just enough left of them so that they still can get their job done.

Svend · « **Reply #28 on:** April 24, 2012, 08:33:56 pm »

Thanks guys. Nordica says the Girish is derived from the Doberman shell, but in all mtn. incarnation. Shockingly soft flexing, for a boot from that lineage. But if the race-derived Doberman has the same fit, but the flex of the Raptor, then it should be an excellent match. The Girish was the best fit of the bunch, but was softer than my present boot, so a no-go for me. I will try to find a proper Doberman. Failing that, the Raptor was a very close second in fit. Excellent snug fit all around.

H-A, thanks for the info on the Raptor. It has some appealing features -- the flex and forward lean adjust, the booster strap, spiney buckles. As for instep height, I'm not too worried about it being too low, as that can probably be easily fixed. But too high....not so good.

Just got to Banff today, and will try some more boots in the coming days.

Cheers,
Svend

Svend · « **Reply #29 on:** April 27, 2012, 05:23:54 pm »

OK -- thanks Max. I was just going by what a bootfitter told me, that a low instep was no problem to work on. If that is an issue, then going with a tech knows what he's doing will be key.

FYI -- tried a Lange RS130, and it was way too tight in the midfoot area. Good elsewhere, esp. in the heel, achilles and cuff areas. This one might be a contender if a good fitter can punch those areas out.

I happened to browse through a 2013 Atomic catalog yesterday in a shop, and spotted an interesting looking race boot called the Redster. This has a carbon spine, three replaceable sole plates of differing stiffness, and, most interestingly, a flattened lower part of the inner boot where the foot contacts the side of the shell. This is supposed to help with edge grip and ski control. A very interesting looking boot, and some innovative technology in there. This is Atomic's press release:

Redster Pro 130:
With the new Redster, all athletic skiers will profit from pure World Cup performance: the Redster reacts more sensitively to the terrain, steers the ski more precisely and accelerates it more explosively than any other boot. Its all-new carbon spine is extra-rigid, supports the heel precisely and makes quick edge switches easier without limiting the sensitivity of the forefoot. What?s more, this boot can be adapted to precisely fit your racing discipline, personal preferences and external conditions. For example with the exchangeable Flex Frames. These offer three degrees of firmness to choose from: Soft (yellow; for long, fast turns), Medium (white; for medium turn radiuses) and Hard (black; for short, fast turns).

Another worldwide first is Rotational Power Control: an adjustment mechanism that lets you adjust the cuff inward or outward to create an individualized setup that goes with your riding style and personal preferences. The Redster Pro 130 is the top-line model for all skiers looking for pure performance: the only differences between this and Marcel Hirscher?s original boot are its flex and last width.

HighAngles · « **Reply #30 on:** April 29, 2012, 10:33:48 am »

Quote from: Svend on April 27, 2012, 05:23:54 pm

FYI -- tried a Lange RS130, and it was way too tight in the midfoot area. Good elsewhere, esp. in the heel, achilles and cuff areas. This one might be a contender if a good fitter can punch those areas out.

Svend - Your comment about the mid-foot area being too tight can be easily remedied if you're willing to cough up more cash for a ZipFit liner. The ZipFit only has 2 layers of neoprene around the mid-foot and will allow you to get into a tighter fitting shell. Honestly, this is all about the things I warned about - being led astray by a liner (or possibly the footbed).

Put it this way, I could barely get my foot into the Raptor with the stock liner and once I did I was not in my "happy place". With a ZipFit it's the perfect shell for my foot. In the end it's all about what your personal goals are for your boot fit. I prefer to lean toward the side of higher performance which means I want less liner between my foot and the shell.

HighAngles · « **Reply #31 on:** April 29, 2012, 10:38:17 am »

Quote from: Svend on April 27, 2012, 05:23:54 pm

I happened to browse through a 2013 Atomic catalog yesterday in a shop, and spotted an interesting looking race boot called the Redster. This has a carbon spine, three replaceable sole plates of differing stiffness, and, most interestingly, a flattened lower part of the inner boot where the foot contacts the side of the shell. This is supposed to help with edge grip and ski control. A very interesting looking boot, and some innovative technology in there.

Be careful with this one in regards to assuming the "carbon" spine is what Atomic says it is. According to Bill Dodge (of Dodge Boots fame) the "carbon" in the spine of the Redster is not actually a piece of carbon fiber shaped into the spine of a boot. It's actually ground up carbon mixed with plastic which does make the spine more rigid, but it's not really the same thing as true carbon fiber.

Now of course this info is only hearsay and the Redster may still be a great skiing boot (it does have some nice features like the rotating cuff). In the end though it only matters if the shell is the one that fits your foot best.

Svend · « **Reply #32 on:** April 30, 2012, 06:04:56 am »

H-A, the Lange was already tight in the midfoot area when I tried the shell fit. Both sides of my foot were touching the shell, and not just lightly -- it was pretty snug. Naturally, with liner in, it was far too tight there.

Thanks for the info on the Atomic. I will try it on for size this coming autumn when the new stuff is in. But for now, my search is done, as I'm back home from my trip west and all stores here have no more ski stuff on the floor.

Thanks to all for their great advice and input. It's really raised my knowledge and awareness of what to look for when trying on boots. My trials last week were most interesting, and I was definitely a more savvy shopper. Among other things, it reconfirmed yet again that flex index means almost nothing, even within a brand. But I was surprised at just how drastic some of the differences actually were.

I appreciate all your help, and will pick up this thread again in the fall when my search resumes.

Cheers,
Svend

HighAngles · « **Reply #33 on:** April 30, 2012, 06:18:07 pm »

Hmmm, in re-reading some of my posts I think I'm getting a bit "preachy" around here. Feel free to smack me down a bit.

Svend - glad you learned a thing or two. I wish you luck when you pick your search back up in the Fall.

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #34 on:** April 30, 2012, 07:26:30 pm »

HA:
I for one, don't feel like you have been preachy. I don't quite know how you manage without actually working in a ski shop, but you have a lot of knowledge about a lot of gear. I enjoy that as a resource, and all I hear is reasonable suggestions presented respectfully.
As an example, your comment about the carbon spine made perfect sense once you mentioned it. Shimano Ultegra carbon pedals use "short fiber" carbon, the top-line Dura Ace uses longer fiber carbon. Neither is bad, but only one is their top tier (and 20% more expensive) product.
So reasonable reminder that their are various 'carbons'.

Svend · « **Reply #35 on:** April 30, 2012, 09:41:30 pm »

H-A...by no means are you being preachy. Not a whiff of a soap box or pulpit, so no worries. On the contrary, I find your replies extremely informative and I appreciate the time and detail you put into them. So, don't stop. Keep doing what you're doing.

I think everyone here is mature and sophisticated enough to know that members often post opinions and experiences regarding things that work or make sense to the person posting, and the readers are then are able to interpret this in their own way and take away that which fits their own situation and needs. A variety of opinions and perspectives is healthy and can only deepen the knowledge pool, and as long as everyone stays open-minded and tolerant of alternative viewpoints, then it's all good.

So, again, thanks for all your help with my questions.

Cheers,
Svend

LivingProof · « **Reply #36 on:** May 01, 2012, 07:17:19 am »

One the great things about our forum is that there are many people that make me think when they speak ( ok write ).

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