Boot shell fit criteria

[Svend]

Further to my Kypton thread, it looks like I'll be doing some boot testing during my upcoming visit to Banff, in search of a stiffer pair.  There are some good shops there, which have some decent product and lots of narrow-lasted performance models on hand.  Gary bought his RX130's there last year, at one of the only places in North America, apparently, to have a pair in his size.  But I digress....

In past, when shell fitting a boot, I've really only been looking at two criteria:  length (max 1-1/2 finger gap at heel, w. toe touching front shell); and forefoot width (about 1/8 inch wiggle room for a snug fit).  The rest of the fit, such as snugness in the heel pocket, instep and cuff, I've been judging with liner in the boot.  And if the initial fit seems good, I leave the boots on for about 20 - 30 minutes to see if any serious hot spots appear, circulation is good, etc..  And I test flex pattern, general alignment.

In the previous thread, HighAngles hinted at other shell fit things to check out.  So, how do I properly evaluate a good shell fit in those other parameters? Is it possible to assess good fit in the heel, instep and cuff with a shell fit? What else do I need to look for as predictors of a good fit? Does anyone have a well-worn set of criteria that they use? If so, let's hear it!   

Thanks all....

[Gary]

Svend....in the past few years I've seen manufacturers now shaping the interior of the boots more. They are more like a human foot rather than a block of ice. So one thing I look for is how the shell fit conforms to the entire foot shape.

I also look to see how the boot strap connects to the boot...either shell contact or liner contact.

One thing and I'm not sure if it still applies mechanically speaking..is that the inside pivot screw should be even or lower than the outside pivot screw. I was told years ago that that provided better lateral forces to the inside edge of the ski.

Another factor I find for me is that I seem to get better performance with a boot/cuff that's a bit higher. I find this out recently with the transition from my Head Raptor the the Lange RX Pro....in this case , the liner was higher and I just feel much more connected and find myself having shorter movements fore and aft to get ski response.

Another thing I look for is solid contact of the upper cuff around the lower leg. Moving the feet and ankles moves the lower leg and so on up the chain. Having good contact on the inside and outside of the leg is paramount.

Tracking I think is critical also....if knees are moving correctly...since our bodies are all different....findin g the right boot that allows a good stance and good tracking or at least  one that's adjustable is very important.

Make sure any new boot try ons includes your footbed. I always shell fit with the liner out but my footbed in the shell.

Hope this helps some Svend....good hunting....g   

[Svend]

Thanks G.  That's good advice.  Esp. about the cuff height and hinge positions.  There are a couple of boots that seem to have tall cuffs, like the Salomon X-3, Lange RS/RX, while others are much lower, and won't work for a guy my height.  I will also look for medial position of the foot relative to inside edge of ski, and any boot board canting (which was an issue with my old Langes) or other outward bias of the shell/bootboard combo.

But what about other shell fit things? Are there any other things to look for, such as side-to-side gap in heel pocket? Gap around lower leg at the cuff? Shape and room in the Achilles area? Or are those best judged with liner in?

[Gary]

Svend....with regards to the overall shell fit..for the foot, contact should feel equal around the foot....actually I like to do this with without a sock on to get better feel points through out the boot. This includes heel, the last area, side of foot, 6th toe area,...starting with a boot that's 95% there is a big plus. Sometimes mod's in the 6th toe or ankle bone areas may be required but essential fit areas I think are the forefoot and heel. Also look for even spacing in the upper cuff when you stand in the shell. Most top end boots, the cuff can be tipped one way or the other but it's helpful if the shape of your lower leg fits the shell with even spacing. 

The race performance or high performance boots all have tighter tolerance than lower end boots. I've found that if the heel fits in the pocket well, the Achilles area fits too but keep in mind that spacing of the entire lower leg should be even all around the upper cuff.

Finally, I think it's got to be done without the liner for the best fit. The liner can hide a ton of issues. Having someone that has an eye of what to look for, a good boot fitter is extremely helpful. Standing in the shell with the foot bed in, in your ski stance, arms at the pole carry position, looking straight ahead...."be one with the force Luke"...listen to what your feet are telling ya...!    best, g

[Svend]

Aha! That's the info I was looking for.  Thanks G.  Since you'll be with me in Banff, you can be my second set of eyes.  I recall last year in Banff, spending a lot of time on my knees stuffing my hands down the back of your new Langes checking for shell fit.  At least you were man enough to have clean socks on.     This year it's your turn.  Bring a clothes pin for your nose 

[jim-ratliff]

If you know you are going boot hunting, buy a 1/2" or 3/4" dowel road 6-12" long and use that rather than using Gary's fingers.  Round off the tip of the dowel rod if you want it to be a bit more comfortable.


The dowel rod will also stay the same size -- a finger compresses with a close fit, but you never quite know how much it compressed.

[Svend]

Some good tips.  Thanks guys.  I'm sure Gary will be grateful not to have his fingers pressed into service. 

The expertise of bootfitters varies greatly between shops, and the odds of finding a shop with both a good bootfitter and a shell that fits my foot is therefore diminished.  I'm trying to equip myself with as much knowledge as possible beforehand, so I can both judge the experience of the shop staff, and make my own assessment if need be.

This whole exercise will take time, and I don't expect to come home with a new pair just yet.  But at least I'll be a little wiser as to what might work and what won't.

[Gary]

How cool would it be if there was a web site that you could get a 3d picture of what the shape and dimensions are of the insides of varoius boot...maybe someday.

Max brings up a good point about instep....another critical area for sure. I remember there was a pair of boots that fit you like a glove Svend...up in Toronto one day we were exploring...UNTIL you buckled the instep...I hadn't seen a grown Viking cry in years but there it was....

We'll have some fun exploring the shops and trying on a bunch so you get a sense of what's out there...Yes and thank you for all the input last season when I purchased my Langes....your help was instrumental but mostly mental  to helping me get fitted.

We ride Kemosabi! Let's geter done!! G

[HighAngles]

I believe in being the "educated and informed" consumer.  I myself have experienced (and heard many stories from friends about) problems with even some of the most reputable boot fitters available in this country.  This even includes the "skunkworks".  I won't get into my issues here or the others I'm aware of because I don't believe that disparaging professionals on a public forum serves any useful purpose.

Yes, you may be able to put yourself in the hands of an expert and come out OK, but the trend is that consumers must watch out for themselves (these days even for your medical care).

Anyhow, so Gary has covered the subject really well already.  I'm glad he pointed out a VERY important aspect of shell fitting that almost every boot fitter misses - a shell fit must be done WITH the footbed in the shell.  Your footbed (hopefully it's a custom one) changes the shape of your foot (especially in shortening the overall length).  Plenty of so-called boot fitters will shell fit, but how many of you have had the fitter actually use your footbed when doing so?

For me the key fit areas are the ankle, heel, and instep (I also prefer a wider toe box so that my toes don't get pinched).  It's the shape and alignment of the ankle pockets, width of the heel, and height of the instep that makes or breaks a boot for my feet.

It's also important to understand where in the size distribution for the manufacturer's model lineup, the shell components actually change size.  Many times the shell components do not change size between 2 (sometimes 3) given shell sizes (and remember shells are only available in whole sizes, the half size crap is just liner or insole trickery).  This means that the same size upper cuff may be used for 2 or 3 shell sizes.  I discovered this issue a number of years ago when comparing 3 sizes of Flexon/Full Tilt shells.  Nothing changed but the overall length between the 27 and 26 shells, but drop down to the 25 shell and then the rear cuff and tongue were smaller and the shell was significantly narrower, not just shorter.  The same holds true for the Head Raptor series - the cuff component is the same in the 25 and 26 shells, but is larger in the 27. 

So what does this all mean?  It means that you shouldn't get too hung up on the overall length of the shell when shell fitting and really concentrate on the other fit areas.  Insist on trying multiple shell sizes.  Be sure to try the shell that is definitely too small, but really assess if it is.  It's relatively easy to make a plastic shell get some additional length or some additional width.  So go small (or don't go at all).

[Svend]

H-A, once again, thanks for an informative post.  I didn't know that about the cuff sizes being the same for different shell sizes.  Something to watch for -- good one. 

I'm good with the advice about trying different shell sizes.  I've had shop guys want to put me only into the shell size that showed on their foot measuring device.  When I asked to try and then told them that the next shell size down actually fit better, they thought I was nuts.  Didn't buy boots there, obviously.

Guys, if I were to summarize all the things to look for in a good boot fit, this is what my list would be....


Shell fit (all assessments done with footbed in):

1) Length -- 1/2" to 3/4" behind heel, toe touching shell end

2) Width -- 1/8" wiggle room, side-to-side at forefoot, preferably less at heel area for snug fit

3) Instep height -- hard to judge, I think, without liner in to change foot height off bootboard, but if there is contact or almost no gap at instep with only footbed in (no liner), then it's too low

4) Ankle pocket -- small gaps, 1/8" or so; no contact points, esp. not at hinge rivet; well contoured around ankle bones

5) Cuff width -- hard to judge without buckling boot and/or liner in; but looking for a slim fit with no gaping spaces

6) Cuff height -- taller is better for a guy of my height (6'2")


General boot design things to inspect:

7) Cuff hinge locations -- evenly positioned, or offset?

8 ) Bootboard canting and ramp -- flat or canted outward? Ramp angle?

9) Relative position of lower cuff flap to instep area of shell -- located well up? or low and touching instep area? (potential pressure point when flexed)

10) Contour shape of shell -- updated design, anatomically more accurate?

11) Position of medial part of foot to inside edge of ski -- foot centered? outward?

12) Stiffness/thickness of plastic at medial part of boot

13) Shell shape inside boot where sides of feet meet shell -- rounded or flat?

14) Liner thickness and density; quality of materials

15) Cuff alignment adjustment -- both sides? one side only? none?


Other fit things to check with liner in:

-- Alignment/canting in neutral stance

-- Alignment/canting flexed forward, tracking of knees

-- Range of motion

-- Flex feel -- progressive/smooth, hard/uneven, sharp end stop

-- Hot spots, compression of instep

-- Toe room when in neutral stance vs. flexed forward


That's all I can think of for now.  Am I missing anything? If so, post back.  If something else comes to mind, I will edit and update.

Message to moderators:  how about using the above list as the starting point for a Sticky in the Gear section? With collaboration with the gang here giving their input, collectively we could come up with a pretty decent guide on "How to Shop for New Boots".  We could even include a pros & cons list of 3-piece vs. 2-piece shells.

[Svend]

That's good info.  Thanks Max.  I'll pack a couple of short dowels for my trip. 

A couple of other quick questions:

Bootboards -- do hard vs. soft bootboards make any difference to performance? Or is this just a comfort thing, for absorbing vibration, etc.?

Plastic type and stiffness in cold -- I have heard that some boots are made with plastic that does stiffen up on cold days as much as others.  Does anyone know which is which? There seems to be two different kinds -- PE and PU plastic. 

[Svend]

I haven't started the new boot search yet.  All the stores around here moved to bikes a month ago because of the early spring.  But I will be in Calgary and Banff for the next two weeks on business and to ski (naturally), where it's still full-on ski season.  There are a few really good shops out there, and I will have plenty of time to do some testing.  Hopefully, being late season, they will still have stock in my size.

I tried a Raptor Supershape version (the red ones) a few years ago, and they fit well.  Very snug overall, nice flex pattern, solid feel.  But if I recall, the instep was too low for me, which ruled them out.  I may try a pair again, but they are kind of farther down on the list.

I have not tried any Nordica boots, but the Doberman 130 is high on my short list for sure.  They also have a big-mountain version of the Doberman called the Girish, which is a 130 flex, 98mm last, which looks interesting.  In the pics online, the shell seems slightly different than the other Doberman line -- taller cuff, more anatomical heel area.  I will look for those out west.  And, LP mentioned a new Doberman for 2013 called the Patron which sounds terrific and looks killer (see Phil's review on Epic; he says they fit almost exactly like his Inferno 130's, so they should be a great fit for me too as I am in that same shell now).

Here's my short list:

-- Lange RX130 / Rossi SI 130 (exact same boots)
-- Tecnica Inferno 130
-- Fischer Soma RC4 130 (tried an X-120 some time ago, but instep was too low; want to try them again as their shell has since changed)
-- Nordica Doberman 130 (any of their 130/98mm models, but if the Girish has a taller cuff it will be preferred)
-- Salomon X-3 130 (tried this 3 years ago, but had a bad hot spot right at the hinge rivet on my ankle bone; no fix for that; otherwise great fit, but the shell had a weird deformation pattern when I flexed forward which was off-putting; I want to try these again)
-- Dalbello Krypton Pro 140
-- Head Raptor 130

I have not tried an Atomic race boot yet.  Anyone know anything about these? Worth a look?

Dalbello Scorpion seems like the cuff is too low, so that will likely not work.

Any comments on the above are welcome.... 

[Gary]

Hmmm......My only question is should I have two drinks or 3 before I join Svend on his "next boot" search in Banff next week.

Hmmmm.....better make it three before and 3 after!    Should be very informative. I'm sure we will wear out the towns boot  guys!
The Quest for the Holy Grail of Boots for the Viking begins.   

[Svend]

Ha! If it's anesthetic you need, I will supply as much as you need.      But it will be good to have a second pair of eyes scoping this out.  And we can recharge with an ale between shops, as this will be exhausting.

Cheers,
Svend

[jim-ratliff]

Hmmm......My only question is should I have two drinks or 3 before I join Svend on his "next boot" search in Banff next week.

Hmmmm.....better make it three before and 3 after!    Should be very informative. I'm sure we will wear out the towns boot  guys!
The Quest for the Holy Grail of Boots for the Viking begins.   

Gary: 
Are you planning on bringing along your battery powered Dremel tool with the custome "boot grinding" attachment?
No reason not to make some minor adjustments at the store, just to see if any hot spots can easily be remedied?