Clendenin and Lindsy Vonn

[Gary]

After all the discussion recently regarding the benefits of what CSM teaches...I did the best I could do in describing movments and benefits...

How about checking this out for some much deeper insight: 

http://mogulmasters.us/forum/?p=648

Best, G

[Gary]

The article and interview go into much more depth Max....IMO a very interesting article and with parallels to many things John teaches.

I don't know when your photo's were taken, but the ones in the interview show her skiing technique differently and are recent (Portillo 2011)...technique their race coach seems to believe in.

To see how they are using some of the primary principals of CSM... to me was well explained.

Great interview worth listening to.....

[ToddW]

The SG photo appears to be on this season's boots.

[jim-ratliff]

It seems obvious to me and as someone said, that while John and his instructors can rip bumps, that this is not the focus of their camps. And  that's not to say that follow-on personal instruction can't take you to a higher level.

And I can't fault that business model.  And, I guess, kudos as well for creating a marketing DVD that makes bump skiing look attainable for his target audience.

A few years ago, Lynn and I took a December Harb camp and then a Clendenin camp in January. We were both feeling good  about our progress after the Harb camp, but couldn't blend that with the Clendenin camp. At the end we both felt like we "had lost our feet".  After the Clendenin camp was over, Lynn and I became even more appreciative of how smoothly the Harb camps run.  At the Clendenin camp, half of the people never got to see their video. The other half saw it, but without any time for additional teaching or analysis.  I assume that John's camps  have probably continued to become more  polished since that time.

And, I might as well admit, I don't need anyone helping me find my "love spot".

[jim-ratliff]

Max:
In that last picture you posted, how much CA do you actually see. I see a bit of CB and a lot of flex at the waist, but if I try to visualize what she would look like with the body less forward I don't see much CA.

[jbotti]

Max:
In that last picture you posted, how much CA do you actually see. I see a bit of CB and a lot of flex at the waist, but if I try to visualize what she would look like with the body less forward I don't see much CA.

Chest and hips are facing the tops of her skis. It take a lot of CA to do that. Look which direction her skis are headed. The pic is a little optically illusory.

[Liam]

SG/Downhill are gruelling race events where the racers legs are jello by the time they are finished. Why would someone interested in skiing bumps with the bare min in movement be looking at SG racers that are rocketing down a steep icy slope at 70+ MPH and pulling 3Gs on every turn?

This pic, which shows a great turn at the gate, is from Vonn's win in Jan 2012 in Cortina D'Ampezzo.



compare that image to any of the CSM skier pics.

She is still above the gate in that picture...will she hold that counter al the way to the beginning of her next turn or will she square up more to her direction of travel as she transfers weight to the inside ski and approaches the next gate?

The US women's speed coach is certainly worth listening too...I'd have liked to hear his thoughts specifically on what John teaches.

[HeluvaSkier]

She is still above the gate in that picture...will she hold that counter al the way to the beginning of her next turn or will she square up more to her direction of travel as she transfers weight to the inside ski and approaches the next gate?

The US women's speed coach is certainly worth listening too...I'd have liked to hear his thoughts specifically on what John teaches.

What happens next is highly dependent upon release timing.

Any instructor in the world can take one image out of a reel of film and use it to justify what they are teaching. Few can take run after run after run of WC skiing and show that it fits their model for technique...

IMO, speed skiing is not particularly applicable to what most skiers are doing on the mountain are doing... much of it is more about feel for the skis, line, and gliding than it is about technique. Knight is preaching what we have been hearing coming out of these circles for a few years now - more about not pushing at the bottom of the turn than anything else... all about carrying momentum in the direction of the next turn. This kind of talk is so far beyond even some of the strongest recreational skiers that it would take a decade of dedicated practice and training to even understand it.

In short WC skiing has little application to what JC is teaching to vacationers. These kinds of interviews and guest coaching sessions are done for publicity for both sides. Apologies for being blunt.

[Gary]

From my view point and experience, we vacationers have had great succes with "the principals" being discussed in that interview....not that any of that is going to make us WC skiers. That's not the point...for us, getting more use of that uphill edge, earlier and more often has saved my butt numerous times and reduced fatigue by having better speed managment and turn shape.  Understanding how to effectively use the bottoms of my skis has made pow, crud, loamy sand crappy snow way more easier to ski for me. An effective and different way to use body alignment that is highly effective for certain conditions....appli ed and works.

So as one of those vacationers that can find some good in many forms, I take out of teaching principals that are functional for me and it's only been getting better.

Jim and Lynn...certainly having a strong comfort level with your feet is highly important for high level skiing. Taking on new concepts in skiing at the time you and Lynn attended, may have been just to much to absorb and apply. Sorry to hear that you got no benefit whatsoever from you time with JC. They say timing is everything.

In the end, each our paths take us down different roads....but having the skills to ski all over the mountain in confidence and enjoyment is really the big picture.

Vacationer!

[Liam]

Gary,

Try to get JC to create some videos of just him, or him and Chino (etc) free skiing bumps and off-piste terrain...a sort of finished product of embracing the four words for the long haul.  I think it would go a long way in attracting a slightly more ambitious vacation skier crowd (a show the full range of what he teaches).

I have to say, while I enjoyed his book, his 'testimonial' videos of baby boomers shopping for turns in the bumps give me some pause about ever plunking down cash for camps.  I remember he discussed once developing a 'Black Level 3' camp and book but it never came about.

The few glimpses of John really skiing that I've seen were those short vignettes with Brooksbank, Danny Pierce, Eva Rodriguez, that were from the Plum TV segments.  Those were wonderful and were the best concrete proof I saw that his system had real merit, but he pulled those down and put them only on his dvd...which I've never watched, though it sounds a little primitive (and, really, 'The Love Spot?" I've never been one for sophomoric school-boy plays on words...even when I was a sophomore school boy!).

As for extension and absorption...if you look at the photo sequence in HH's expert 2 that features Black Level PMTS coach John C...it is demonstrating the full range of extension and retraction.


Oh, and this is probably the best video available for free of John skiing..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2037274657328789579

I realize that he is skiing slow and easy so his clients can follow and mimic his moves in the bumps...but he still looks pretty great (these clients all look a lot better than the more recent ones in the 'testimonials' section of the ski doctors website).  When he picks up the pace in the last 30 seconds...is he using CB/CA???

[jim-ratliff]

From my view point and experience, we vacationers have had great succes with "the principals" being discussed in that interview....not that any of that is going to make us WC skiers. That's not the point...for us, getting more use of that uphill edge, earlier and more often has saved my butt numerous times and reduced fatigue by having better speed managment and turn shape.  Understanding how to effectively use the bottoms of my skis has made pow, crud, loamy sand crappy snow way more easier to ski for me. An effective and different way to use body alignment that is highly effective for certain conditions....appli ed and works.

So as one of those vacationers that can find some good in many forms, I take out of teaching principals that are functional for me and it's only been getting better.

Jim and Lynn...certainly having a strong comfort level with your feet is highly important for high level skiing. Taking on new concepts in skiing at the time you and Lynn attended, may have been just to much to absorb and apply. Sorry to hear that you got no benefit whatsoever from you time with JC. They say timing is everything.

In the end, each our paths take us down different roads....but having the skills to ski all over the mountain in confidence and enjoyment is really the big picture.

Vacationer!

Gary:
I wouldn't say no benefit but it was a wrong time for us.  One of the things I really liked was skiing behind John (and I believe he did that personal attention in real life just like in the clip) and following him through the bumps. Not worrying about when to turn and where was quite educational, and made bumps easier all by itself.
I also retained other things, and got confirmation of my issues.

[Gary]

Hey Liam...that's the video that brought me to him 5 years ago.....also that's a very good point of him putting up a video of he and his crew rippin' some extreme bump lines...showing the potential.... I'll mention it to him.

Good to hear Jim....nice to know that there were some benefits...but even following someone, ya gotta be able to apply the skills...nice to hear some of those principals are part of your skill set.

Best, g

[jim-ratliff]

Gary:
And the company was great. It was fun skiing with you and Alice, Perry, Ron, and your friends, and Lynn and I still marvel at the shrimp bisque that one afternoon.

[jbotti]

I have to agree that having some video of some ripping bump skiing would do wonders for attendance at his camps. HH knows this well and all the video he has posted of his skiing is awesome skiing. Of course he is never not ripping so it's not like he has to cherry pick the video!!

[Gary]

For sure Jim...ditto here...it's always a great time skiing with you and Lynn.

Guys, I just posted on John's site a request to have him post up some video's of he and his crew skiing bumps. I also PMed him. I think it would be very informative being able to show advanced bump skiers the effectiveness CSM can bring for those interested in an alternative approach.

JB...Harold does not post videos of students in their beginning phase of learning....but watching video of him skiing was was what  brought me to him. Johns approach was to show beginners and intermediate bumpers skiing with him using his system. For me, watching those videos was not intimidating and actually inviting... just what I needed to get me there.....just a different marketing strategy.

G