Separation at the hip joint

[Gary]

Glad to hear Max that you got that info....JC believes his method is constantly evolving. My last clinic with him was in Portillo, Chile....something that was very clear is that he's not focusing on a very narrow stance the skier has to force his legs together...it's where your feet align or stand naturally...

Having said that, I believe as living proof for myself, sucesses my wife and numerous others have had  (including Peter Keltey's wife), John system provides SOMETHING usable in bumps, pow and crud. We are skiing more bowls, more bumps, more glade more steeps with more confidence using techniques learned from him. Still, I find many PMTS movements applicable and make both systems work for me.

For us....what I think the primary skill sets received from CSM were speed management and turn shape in bumps and crud with less energy expended, fewer hard angles, simply just easier on the entire body...pretty much sums up the rewards of  his system.

Max, our perception of what we  consider expert skiing might differ too....I've seen JC and his instructors ski monster bumps at warp speed, effortlessly and it sure looks pretty darn expert to me.

Summing up my thoughts without wearing out this topic, his system may not be for everyone, it may not employ every PMTS principal, but using solid pole plants, tipping, effective use of the skis four edges, given the performance results I've experienced, there's no doubt in my mind that JC and his cadre, are expert skiers, and of course....my perception.

Only thing left to do Max is ski together, mabe someday....it would be great fun to compare notes! All the best,..g

[jim-ratliff]

Max, our perception of what we  consider expert skiing might differ too....I've seen JC and his instructors ski monster bumps at warp speed, effortlessly and it sure looks pretty darn expert.

Gary:
Now I'm curious.  When John and instructors are free skiing (or warp skiing  ) would you say they are using the same suite of movements, or have they added to those base movements.  I know if you watch competitive bump skiers you see a lot of upper lower separation and angulation, and I would not be at all surprised that JC could (and might) still ski that way if the bumps are challenging enough?

[Gary]

Hi Jim....watching pro bump skiers, what I notice is how quiet their upper bodies are, shoulders square to the fall line, lower body and upper body quite separated but angulation quite muted. The edges are not digging deep, the big toe edge is not sliding away from the uphill ski, using the float or drift to stay connected to the bumps or 3d terrain. In all the clinics I attended with John, CA or CB never was discussed....it's not part of his teaching system. Touch, tip, Drift and Center are the primary ingredients to skiing bumps and 3d terrain...amazingly simple and effective. John skis all manner of bumps, size, shape and conditions the same way he teaches us....it works.

Jim, JC understands and can apply PMTS skills....I've skied 2 ski lengths behind him and watched him...BUT...that's not why I and many others wanted to ski with him...he woke up our senses to the bottoms of our skis and to the edges of our feet with hours of tip and release drills, free foot back, use of the drift...all skills that awakened new abilities, less effort, and so much more confidence.

John first and foremost was a freestyle and bump skier wild man back when...plenty of videos to support that. He knew bump skiing like the old days could wear you out and  found a more effective way to teach bump and 3d snow skiing...ways that save the body, energy and create efficiency in that kind of terrain. John is a professor of ski skills who is always studying, learning and applying what he deems effective to teach to others.
Watching John ski bumps with his fluid bump skiing is what I aspire to...it's what brought me to his methods. Watching Harold carving, with his amazing body angles and counter is what I aspired to and what brought me to his methods.

My struggle to be able to tackle a variety of terrain with skill and confidence was enhanced by these two great instructors.

G

[LivingProof]

My take on Clendenin ski method. I think John is a shrewd businessman, in that, his school marketing distinction is for recreational skiers to come to Aspen and learn how to ski bumps in a couple of days. A very tasty proposition catering to those with some $$$. How much anyone can change their skiing in a couple of days is limited, so, he's got to keep it simple....the 4 words approach seems reasonable. I would bet the typical student shows up with upright stance and somewhat square upper body. So his technique leaves the upper body alone and focuses on the feet (including tipping), much like PMTS starts with the feet. Also included in a focus on centering balance over the ski - always great advice.

For me, the much more interesting question is why CA/CB is almost unheard of, at least on my small little hill. In the ski club racing team that I spent a bunch of days skiing with, there is no appreciation of these movements.

[Gary]

Hey Mike....it's interesting cause when I showed up in 2008 and John put me on the simulator, he noticed right off the bat that I was using PMTS movements. Further, John runs clinics too but also will do private sessions. I think many more leave his tutelage with the knowledge, but it's taken me 4 seasons really to get a good hold and apply at will the re-centering tool. Like any other teaching form it may be minutes to learn and apply but some skills make take hours and hours of application to own.

I've seen such a variety of skiers in classes, not all upright like mine "was not". The first thing I learned I was too far over the shovels for skiing 3d snow and some boot work got me more centered so fore/aft movements became more "alive"! I think what we learned and have applied, yes costly, with both Harold and John....all worth the price at this point in our lives.

Max...John is HUGE into demonstration and teaching absorption and extension...HUGE..b elieve me....I was way to static and compressed leaving no room for absorption an extension...somethi ng till this day I work hard on.

G

[Gary]

Hmmm..well Max...he teaches absorption/extension by demonstrating what he's looking for...It's very obvious to me that his DVD certainly show him using absorption/extension in his skiing...at least I know I see it.  I will check my manual to see what I can find....We also worked on drills where we start tall in a drill similar to falling leaf and absorb to set edges and as soon as the skis (primarily the uphill edge) are perpendicular to the fall line, then make a quick turn in less than one ski length. This really highlights edge release, weight transfer, a solid feel for the flat part of the ski.

The book demonstrates how bumps can be skied softly and in control....more aggressive bump skiing in steeps and tighter lines...JC quickly introduces the advanced student to the importance of absorption/extension as well as skiing in the future.

John builds the students skill set from the feet up...get the feet right he moves to the pole touches, get that right he moves to absorb and flex....it's a progression the skier get's based on their grasp of the primary fundamentals.

Much like I started with Harold...learing from the feet up.

[Gary]

Max...I just went back and watched some of the clips...in some where he is skiing around the bumps (good point) you don't see it...but in others, the absorbtion and extension is subtle but there to my eye. The lightest movements enough to do the job...why apply any more than the terrain requires.  The steeper the terrain and where he addresses the bump, control the degree of absorbtion and extension....unfort unately not on any clips he's posted. But having skied some of those monsters with him...I can attest...it's there.

I think the reason for the soft subtle moves is that the clips target market was finding those clients wanting to learning to ski bumps... to show them how easy you can ski them without twisiting or hopping...or hurting. Hey, got my attention 4 years ago.

From there, John teaches to the advancement of the student. Hope that helps.

G

[bushwacka]

Josh
A good question asked, but as has been mentioned before, the
best place to get info on PMTS is on the PMTS forum.

Unless you are asking a rhetorical question and using it as a springboard
to discuss your methodology.

Tipping doesn't create upper/lower separation. It is the basic initiating movement taught to turn the skis.

CA/CB are generally taught later after more basic movements are being used by the skier.

As a skier who first learned to ski as an adult and was taught to stop and turn using wedge movements and weighting, I had to work really hard to "relearn" skiing.

CA/CB was never a focus in PSIA lessons I took.

It is very heartening to know that there are PSIA instructors( you) who can discuss and demonstrate upper/lower body movements in skiing.

Anyway, if you really do want to understand more of what PMTS methodology is about, the first place to start is in your head. You know, that open mind thing.

I agree with you that I need to connect my pelvis with my torso.
I have really fallen off the yoga curve. Though won't get near 10 hrs/wk until I retire!
Lynn

I am pretty sure I am not ever allowed on PMTS web forum.

Before our lift serviced season was done, I did go out and did runs focus on two different things. One run I would focus on tipping and thats all.  Then I would focus on making sure my seperation was at the hip joint.

Tipping runs I already have though years or practice pretty good angluation focusing on tipping I was able to really get on edge. short turns do seem to happen with out any rotary input as long as I can go fast enough do not have to vary turn shape. Bumps were a handful on all the skis I tried with just tipping.

Seperation runs I seemed to hold a better edge despite not getting as high of edge angles. Its hard to describe but in my opinion in most turns the skis were turning me and I was letting the seperation happen at the hip joint IE I was adding anything beside tipping and forcing my inside hip up and forward(what PSIA calls a strong inside half). Bumps were way easier since I was able to point my skis where I needed them to go in pinch moments.

I have worked alot on building a strong inside half(aka CA/CB) this year though not only yoga but though laps and laps of practice. Take into account I am loosey goosey AT binding that have seen much better days and my angles are what can be support on some very soft spring snow but I feel as if I have really stabilized my upper body.

[jim-ratliff]

Josh:


You don't have to join to view the material on the PMTS forum.
And I'm pretty sure that you would be welcome to join if your focus were understanding (not necessarily adopting).  It's not a place to debate the merits of how you ski versus how Harald skis.