Raising the Front Binding.

[Svend]

Max, I think we are drifting away from the central point, which is that the BOF-CRS method of setting an initial binding position is better than the current system of boot midsole to ski factory mark.  We have repeatedly stated that even the BOF-CRS method is just a starting point to doing your own fine tuning.  I know of no other method of determining a good initial binding position (most shops don't have a Campbell Balancer), and at least the BOF-CRS method has some logic, common sense, and a bit of research behind it.  In the absence of a better alternative, this seems to me to be a pretty good place to start, and much better than blindly using the factory mark, which for many skis seems to be way off where the skier should be positioned. 

Just from memory of past discussions here on the forum, most here seem to be mounting their bindings forward of factory mark, at least for Austrian-made skis (Head, Kastle, etc.).  As this is usually where the BOF-CRS mark also falls, I would venture a guess that a lot of us are skiing closer the latter mark than the factory mark, without intentionally having set it up that way. 

[jim-ratliff]

Max:

I'm curious, so let's talk two specifics rather than the general. 
For your Shamans, where are the bindings mounted and how did you arrive at that placement.
Same question for your narrow skis (SuperShapes? Icon TT80's?). Where are the bindings set and how did you arrive at that preference?

Jim

Hey dweeb, you need to review your grammar a little bit , or use that android phone a bit less.
The first sentence above started "I curious" and I am pretty sure that you are not intentionally doing ebonics, so I changed it to "I'm curious" for you, but you should NOT rely upon a Moderator to make your posts intelligible.  OK?  Just sayin'.   

[jim-ratliff]

Thanks.
And interesting that there is a difference between the 165 and 170 SuperShapes.

[ToddW]

The 165cm SS is on the short side for freeskiing. I bought them at a price I couldn't refuse. Skied +1 they are very turny.

+1  Before tech/short turn camp I skied a pair set up like this for a few runs.  They were extremely turny and responded to much smaller fore-aft input than 170 mounted on the line.  I didn't push too hard because I was worried about going "over the handlebars."  (The owner and I both ski size 26 Raptors, so they were +1 for me too.)

[Svend]

I'll answer this as I was one of the bears involved in the discussion.

I am in the Bushwacker boot this season and though its an awesome fit for me, I have a considerable amount of forward lean that makes it difficult for me to get my hips forward while moving down hill.
using 3 mm shims under the toe of my bindings I was able to get "stacked" better and get the hips forward, with proper angles to make better movements over all.

I thought I had some images of stick figures for this.  I'll see if I can find them.

Getting back to the initial question that Mike posed in his first post, which is putting shims under the toes of the bindings to get the hips forward -- this is something mentioned in this thread and on other forums too.  I'm just trying to understand how, biomechanically, this actually works.  Can anyone explain? Perhaps using some real-world experience? ....Snowhot and Todd have added shims under the toes of their bindings -- can either of you relate to us exactly how this helped get your hips forward? It seems counterintuitive, and common sense tells me the hips should be further back, not forward. 

Furthermore, for women, the conventional wisdom from boot and ski companies has been to create more ramp angle (ie. same as adding heel lifts) and not less, because of their lower COG and the consequent need to get their hips forward.  Meaning they are doing the opposite of using toe lifts to get the hips forward.

This is getting confusing....

On a side note, I also read that raising the toe of the boot makes the boot feel stiffer.  Is this also your experience?

Thanks,
Svend

[Svend]

OK, now I'm starting to get it.  In other words, what you're saying is that more ramp angle, by pushing hips forward, will create an opposing reaction and induce a skier to get re-balanced by moving the hips back.  Conversely, less ramp angle (toe lifts) will induce the skier to move forward to re-balance.  Interesting, and the opposite of what I thought.

Todd, Snowhot -- is this how it worked out for you?

[Svend]

Different effect if done inside the boot, I presume? Since the lower leg-to-binding/ski angle is unchanged?

[Svend]

Working outside the boot, changing ramp angle moves the knee. The skier then moves the hips.

OK -- but are they moving the hips in the directions that I think?  See my previous post:

OK, now I'm starting to get it.  In other words, what you're saying is that more ramp angle, by pushing hips forward, will create an opposing reaction and induce a skier to get re-balanced by moving the hips back.  Conversely, less ramp angle (toe lifts) will induce the skier to move forward to re-balance.  Interesting, and the opposite of what I thought.

Todd, Snowhot -- is this how it worked out for you?

Could you clarify, please?

[jim-ratliff]

There isn't a one size fits all solution. Changing ramp in either direction should be based on individual needs.

Svend:  I think I'm understanding, and what you said is correct "in some situations" but not as an absolute. Decreasing the ramp angle (with toe shim outside the boot) WILL move the knees back. What happens with the hips depends on how the skier feels about their balance. They may stand the same (so their hips and their COG effectively moved back) or they may feel out of balance on their heels and open the knee more (standing up straighter and moving the hips forward) to feel back in balance -- and wind up with the same balance but a more upright stance.

[Svend]

Probably true, but I happen to be coming at this from a different angle (pardon the pun  ).  I have actually increased the forward lean in my boots, and feel far more balanced and centered and in control of my skis.  Less upright, certainly, but definitely a more aggressive but balanced stance that is working very well for me.

Mind you, I could always reduce the forward lean, and move my bindings forward..... 

Just kidding!

I still find myself in the back seat at times, although far less than with my prior more upright stance, but have to force myself forward occasionally.  I'm probing this ramp angle thing with the thinking that this might help me get more forward without the effort. 

So.....if I want to experiment, can I safely put a couple of little temporary shims under the toes of my boots and try this on an easy blue slope? Will my boots still fit into the toepiece if I try, say, 2mm of hockey tape? Or do I risk a non-release in the unlikely event that I should fall?

[jim-ratliff]

Svend:

it's an interesting topic.  3mm of plastic shim under my heels made a world of difference in my balance, and getting me out of the back seat.  Now I just have to leverage that with technique and body angles.

Jim

[Gary]

Svend...this back seat position you speak of....perhaps you on the Progressor 9's?....I noticed much less of this (other than the occasional hand/arm slip back briefcase) while you were skiing the Nordica's and the Mythics.

I wonder if this could be a case possibly of the the binding location on the P9's...or possibly the input the skis take to charge the shovels compared to your other skis?

OR...are you fighting the same feeling with all the skis?

I'm also not convinced that putting 2mm inside the boot under the zeppa board is going to change enough in your hip/knee/ankle factors BUT might make you feel just enough more centered than currently. This could be a safe and interesting experiment. I did the very same thing and for me, it just felt like I had better control of the skis tip to tail. I don't feel that I lost anything with my skiing but do feel that adjustment gave me a much better "feel" of the shovels.

I must admit that I've gone about this after having my Head Raptors made 5mm more upright. This was done externally of course  but really made a positive difference in my skiing...all with the help with an expert boot fitter. Today with the Lange RS 130 Pro...the stance is spot on but that little under the toe lift for me made a great boot perfect.

These are the kinds of experiments we can do without making them permanent. I'd be happy to video before and after to see if anythings looks really different., but ya still gotta feel the love!

I wouldn't put 2mm externally under the toe other than to the sides for canting testing...directly under the toe might have release impact on the toe part of the binding.

G

[jim-ratliff]

Inside or outside of the boot?

Outside the boot.
Footbed (and bootboard) unchanged.

[Svend]

Gary -- I sometimes (not always) feel that way on all my skis, but mostly the P-9s.  They have a much smaller sweet spot than my Mythics and Mach 3's, so are a bit more demanding of stance.  But, from your keen observations, perhaps I'm not in the back seat at all, but it's just a false sensation that I have.  Specifically, what I feel is that I'm not driving my shins into my boots at all times, and sometimes feel very neutral in my boots.  That's why I feel aft of center.  So, tell me Doctor, is this normal?  Or do I need therapy? Ramp angle intervention? Or just cognitive behaviour modification?

BTW, I wasn't suggesting changing anything inside the boot.  But rather, adding a bit of tape to the underside of the toes of the boots, then trying a few easy runs (low risk of a fall) to see how it feels.  If you think it's a bad idea, then I can try something else.

Bottom line, this is some subtle fine tuning that I would be doing.  And from what you say, perhaps not even necessary if I'm not actually in the back seat after all (which would be good news).  Overall, with the tweaked forward lean of my boots, I am feeling very balanced and centered, and it's just on occasion that I feel aft of center.  Maybe better just to leave a good thing alone and not mess with it.  Furthermore, it just occurred to me that if I did need to tweak the ramp angle, there is no way to put shims under the bindings of my Mythics and Mach 3, as they are system bindings.  Progressors are easy, as they are on a plate, but then I would have only one pair adjusted.  Boot surgery is not something I want to do at this point, as I may be buying stiffer boots next year (we'll see....).

Thanks for the insight.

Cheers,
Svend

[jim-ratliff]

A piece of credit card thick plastic taped to the bottom of your boot will work and not interfere with the function of the bindings.