Raising the Front Binding.

[LivingProof]

While in Tahoe, I listened to an interesting discussion about the benefits of placing small shims (3-6 mm) under the front binding. The effect is that as the skier's natural stance with flexed legs is improved with the feet, hips and shoulders remaining in better alignment and stacked over each other. Several persons in the group were asked to do a deep knee flex while in boots, then, perform the same flexing with a small shim under the boot front. I've tried it since I've been home using a mirror, and, it appears to improve overall posture.

Another part of the discuss stated that the angle created by your back in the natural stance should be same as the angle of your lower leg. I tried this and the result is a slightly taller stance as I tend to bend over too much.

Any thoughts from the community. Not heard about this at all.

[ToddW]

Mike,

Be careful with this. 

If you place shims under the bindings, you need to get properly matched screws to mount your bindings.  Too short and in a stressful moment your bindings will divorce your skis, leaving you in yard sale and looking for new skis.  Too long and you'll need new skis even sooner.

Another option that doesn't tie you to one binding is placing a plastic plate ("gas pedal") under the toe of the boot and routering it back to DIN spec.  The bootfitter you were discussing alignment with earlier in the season might be able to do this for you.

I have a 4mm plate under my boots.  Physically they may be "small" but the effect is huge.  Easy does it when tinkering with fore-aft adjustments.  As a very rough guideline, these plates tend to benefit shorter skiers and those with low leg to torso length ratios.  I'm in both categories and 4mm is a bit too much correction for me.  You're taller than me, so proceed with caution.

[jim-ratliff]

Wouldn't this be the reverse of adding heel shims, and have the side effect of moving your hips back on your skis?

[Gary]

Jim...in small amounts, 2-4mm, I don't think it will effect the hips and center mass.  I believe this only changes the angle of the foot to the ankle. The lower leg and stance should remain the same. However, the amount of or lack of up and down travel of the foot could play a significant role in this consideration.

I actually raised the front of my zeppa board 1 degree using 4 pieces of duct tape. In this position, I felt my forefoot had better contact with the bottom of the boot. More specifically, I could feel more even and immediate contact beneath my toes.

There are so many variables depending on stance, individuals flexability and "performance awarness", (noticing a result which is either neutural, positive or negative).So I agree, go cautiously and in baby steps for anyone looking to play with this.

G

[jim-ratliff]

Gary:  LP
Interesting perspective.
Diana added 3 degrees of hel lift for me and it made a world of difference in my fe aft balance.
I guess I am agreeing with the try before you buy consensus.

[LivingProof]

So, let me add another piece of information. I was in Philpug's shop and he had some time so we tried on 3 new boots. He looked at my Speedmachine 14 boot boards and showed me that the heel is lower than the toe area, a typical setup by Nordica for this boot. At his shop, which does sell Nordica, they typically modify the boot by adding material under the rear of the board during the fitting process. He then modified the boot board to raise the heel and asked me to ski with it for a few days to see what changes it made. There is no doubt in my mind that the change makes it far easier for me get forward and I able to become much more centered. Shimming the front binding would rock me back a little bit, so, ?. For the first time, I can feel the sensation of "putting the pedal to the floor".

I did not intend to make a shim adjustment change when I wrote the OP, and, did so out of curiosity. I will get some video about my posture following the Phil's board modification. I know that photo's & video in the past showed backseat position.

Jim and I both appear to have elevated the heel, one from on internal adjustment, the other from an external. I envy his on-snow assessment. I'm still flying blind.

[HeluvaSkier]

He looked at my Speedmachine 14 boot boards and showed me that the heel is lower than the toe area, a typical setup by Nordica for this boot. At his shop, which does sell Nordica, they typically modify the boot by adding material under the rear of the board during the fitting process. He then modified the boot board to raise the heel and asked me to ski with it for a few days to see what changes it made.

LP, how did Phil show you that the heel was lower than the toe? I've spent a lot of time working on a lot of boots and I am not familiar with a single boot that comes toe-high. Usually, even after significant internal and external modification the toe is still lower than the heel. My setup, which you have seen, is very extreme, and even that nets to a positive zeppa at the boot board. Unless he was showing you the net by using a digital level inside the boot, I wouldn't trust the assessment. In many cases the measurement of the boot board outside of the boot is different from the measurement once it is placed back into the boot.

[bushwacka]

Wouldn't this be the reverse of adding heel shims, and have the side effect of moving your hips back on your skis?

the thing is if you hips are back its easier to keep moving them forward. If your hips are forced forward though a heel lift then to remain balance you going to have to move back..... which is bad juju.

[Svend]

Mike, a few comments to share.  I played with heel lifts a couple of months ago, looking to get my hips more forward.  It didn't work.  I found that I felt disconnected from the tails of the skis, and couldn't pressure them when I wanted to.  But what did work was adding some forward lean shims into the back of my boots between upper cuff and liner.  Many recent boot designs are quite a bit more upright than in past years, mine included.  The stock shims that came with the boots (Tecnica Inferno) were pretty thin; less than 1/4", and just didn't push me forward enough.  I started shoving trail maps back there throughout the course of a day on our local hill, to push me a little more forward.  Turned out that two maps plus the stock shims was the ticket, and the improvement in my feeling of balance was significant.  I now have some thicker rubber shims out of some Langes as a proper fix, and it's all good.

As the other guys said, tweak a little at a time until you hit the sweet spot.  You'll know it when you're there.  Start by using easily reversible changes -- duct tape, trail maps, adhesive foam...whatever works; and then make the change more permanent when you're sure of what works.

And, as Max said, it all depends on the combined ramp angle (delta) of your boots (zeppa and boot sole together) and your bindings, and how that all works with your body alignment.  Experimenting is very well worth doing, and the final outcome will feel great.

Another thing to consider, is that if you raise the toe, and your boots have a lot of forward lean, then you can really put a lot of strain on your Achilles if you have limited range of flex back there.  You can end up with sore tendons, which can be painful.

Good luck with it....

[LivingProof]

the thing is if you hips are back its easier to keep moving them forward. If your hips are forced forward though a heel lift then to remain balance you going to have to move back..... which is bad juju.

Josh,
You see a lot more people ski than I do, and, I'm curious as to what percentage you see with hips too far forward? I would swear the default stance seen on the hill is way too far back. I agree that too far back is easier to fix with correct body movements than fighting being too far forward.

Sort of like the 3 bears, too far forward is bad, too far back is bad, but, getting it just right takes some experimentation. This year, I've done a drill to be "way forward" but my default remains too back. In another forum, Helluaskier said "feeling matter, sort of" and I agree. All the little changes we make to skis or technique may feel better in the short term, but, video is living proof, one way or the other.

Yes, my adding lift in the heel is the opposite of adding shims in the front. So far, I like the experience, but, I need video to confirm.

[bushwacka]

you almost never see someone with hips to far forward all the time.

The thing we as skier have to stop thinking about where we are standing as a position.

IF we are in balance we are MOVING down the hill at the right pace.

If we are to far back we are not moving down hill quick enough.

If we are to far forward we are moving to quickly down the hill.

Most heel lifts are poor attempts at making boots that do not fit fit. Except that when done it effectively makes someones balance to far forward so they then try get further back. Just think about the extremes. If I was to put a piece of wood under the front of your boots and have you try to move back you could not as you would fall over to the back but if I was to ask you to move forward you could easily MOVE forward and lift your heels off the ground. If I put a block of wood under the heels of your boot and asked you to move forward you would most likely fall forward as you try, but moving back would be easy on to you heel.

yes to expand on what I quoted telling Jim yes heel lift would put your heels more forward while being static but makes it damn near impossible to stay there. Put toe lifts in actually make your hips further back, but gives you some place to move.

Notice how I said MOVE, if you can not move down the heel quick enough despite all your efforts than a I guess a very static(and there for really poor) skier might actually benefit from heel lifts.

[SnowHot]

I'll answer this as I was one of the bears involved in the discussion.

I am in the Bushwacker boot this season and though its an awesome fit for me, I have a considerable amount of forward lean that makes it difficult for me to get my hips forward while moving down hill.
using 3 mm shims under the toe of my bindings I was able to get "stacked" better and get the hips forward, with proper angles to make better movements over all.

I thought I had some images of stick figures for this.  I'll see if I can find them.
 

[Svend]

Mike, not sure if you've exhausted this topic, but I just remembered a link that Gary sent me while I was fiddling with my forward lean:

http://custom-bootfitting.southernski.com/balance-in-skiing-is-critical.html

It regards forward lean and balance.  Hope you find it useful.

And, yes, there are stick figures in there....

[jim-ratliff]

Regarding the article linked above.

How often is a skier standing still on a flat slope?

Max:  I can see they need a reference point.  But I also believe that it's hard to do this statically and that on the snow is far superior.


My question is the assumption that the Center of Mass should be over the center of the ski??  I know of binding mounts with the BOF (ball of the foot) over the COR (center of the running surface), but I thought/assumed that you wanted your center of mass somewhere over the front of the ski in order to bend it (more?).


At least in my mind that's a goal, maybe its a goal because my center of mass is well behind too much of the time.

[jim-ratliff]

OK, so taking all of that into account, where should my center of mass/center of effort be relative to the ski.
Am I wrong in assuming that it's NOT the mid-point (or sweet spot, if you wish) and that its somewhere out over the front third of the ski?