Author Topic: A First Allignment Session (Read 784 times)

LivingProof · « **on:** January 23, 2012, 01:15:55 pm »

I've never had an alignment session with a good bootfitter. My intent was always to get to see HH, good intentions and 2000 miles away - never happened. I recently saw a listing of fitters qualified to work on Dodge boots, and, the list included a local fitter, named Billy Kaplan (who has a great local reputation and is a certified podiatrist), so, I made an appointment. Bill has been in the ski business for 35 years, and, has a independent, bootfitting shop that the Skunk Works would be proud of. He was checked out, then, recruited by Dodge, and, sells that boot and others, mostly via special order. We spent 75 minutes on the fitting, now, I just need a window when he is available and I'm not skiing to get boot planning done.

The first portion of the fitting was just having my body and feet checked out to determine if I there are abnormal issues or flexibility problems - I was lucky in that nothing abnormal was discovered. ( He did not inspect my brain )

My only analysis about canting was from HH after he reviewed a video of my skiing. Harald offered that my left leg is knock-kneed and wanted a 2 degree shim placed with the high portion to the inside of the stance. Todd W gave me some shim material last year and I've been skiing with shims on one boot.

The key component of the fitting is a large platform containing 2 blocks of wood that are stood on while wearing boots. The blocks float to permit analysis of the stance. Bill asked me to make small, slow rolling side to side motions while he watched the bottoms of my boots. His fitting "concept" is referred to as "timing". Timing means that soles of both boots must be in synch with each other during the rolling movements. So, they are perfectly flat at the same time, and, rise and fall to peak rotation at the same time. The theory is that if the boots are out of "time", then the skis have to move in different paths as they will not be edged equally. Bill stated Harb uses the same timing concept in his fitting process.

The timing part took a surprising amount of time. Most of it was learning the feel of the movements. Initially, I could not transfer weight from one foot to the other as we would do in skiing. Then, it was clear that there was a hitch in my rolling. Bill just kept adjusting the shims on both sides until it became perfectly smooth. To my surprise, the solution calls for 1.5 degree shims, placed with the high side to the outside of the ski - the opposite of what I've been doing. If correct, this would add edge angel to my skiing, and, help me gets better tracks on hard steep snow.

My plan is to use some shim material under my boots to achieve the angles, and, see what happens. It will be at least 10 days before I could have my boots worked on, so, it's a great opportunity to see what the change brings.

Any thoughts on the process or what to look for when skiing? Does HH use something similar to timing?

BTW, I did get to see the real-deal Dodge boot. His largest size available was just too small for any chance of getting my foot in. I know John Botti did downsize, but, no way I could reduce by 1 full boot size. I need the largest they make 28.5.

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2012, 03:39:33 pm »

LivingProof:
You may not remember, but Ron went to Billy Kaplan as well, and I believe was pretty satisfied with what he did for him.
I've never heard anyone from the SkunkWorks refer to timing (I'm sure other posters here are somewhat more knowledgeable than I). However, they much prefer to do on-the snow analysis of alignment before and after, so they would/could be looking at similar symptoms as they watch.
The question I would have about the floating blocks is what is the stance width of the blocks. I think we all have a natural stance width, and when skiing we naturally ski in that stance unless we are "training" ourselves to ski in a wider stance. How does the floating blocks deal with that.

(and what are the blocks floating on)

Pictures of the gizmo please?

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2012, 04:01:48 pm »

Quote from: LivingProof on January 23, 2012, 01:15:55 pm

To my surprise, the solution calls for 1.5 degree shims, placed with the high side to the outside of the ski - the opposite of what I've been doing. If correct, this would add edge angel to my skiing, and, help me gets better tracks on hard steep snow.

If you are knock-kneed then you should already have plenty of edge. Knock kneed people have the center of mass of the knee inside (of ideal) and therefore get too much weight on the edge and have trouble releasing the edge. In fact, wider skis can actually help a knock kneed skier by getting the edge of the ski even farther inside than their center of mass. (HH ACBAES book 1, I think)

Putting a shim on the inside would have seemed to be the right thing since you want to shift the center of mass of the knee to the outside. Putting the shim on the outside would seem to be an adaptive move but not a corrective move.

And that's about all I have the guts to say about that -- I'm way out of my pay grade.

LivingProof · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2012, 04:38:56 pm »

Jim,

I'm kicking myself that I did not take some photos...duhhh but I did bring my Iphone. Next time. I know Ron went to Billy and is a big fan. The Dodge certification swayed me. Among my goals for the season is to leave RR tracks on my home mtn's headwall.....still have a long way to go, hoping alignment helps.

I did tell him about HH' comment that I appear knock-need. His first comment is that HH is pretty accurate in analysis. I've not done it yet, but, I intend to review old video. Perhaps, I'm just not getting the free leg tipped enough, creating that condition.

He did all the measuring and has a laser to get the 90 degree line from the boots to the knee. The lines are very slightly to the inside of my knee cap, which Harb states is correct. Even with his proposed shims, just looking down at my knees, they were not knock-kneed.

And, yes, the distance between the boots is important. His machine is adjustable for stance width, and, my settings were determined with my feet close together.

jbotti · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2012, 08:52:33 pm »

Quote from: jim-ratliff on January 23, 2012, 04:01:48 pm

If you are knock-kneed then you should already have plenty of edge. Knock kneed people have the center of mass of the knee inside (of ideal) and therefore get too much weight on the edge and have trouble releasing the edge. In fact, wider skis can actually help a knock kneed skier by getting the edge of the ski even farther inside than their center of mass. (HH ACBAES book 1, I think)

Jim and I have had this discussion before. I have recently added more canting to my dodge boots on my right boot (the one where my ankle is set wrong from a displaced fracture years ago at 13 degrees out). Now I am already at 3 degrees on that boot and I essentially ramped it up to 4 degrees. The change is significant. Now the idea that someone is knock kneed has too much edge is can be prhaps clarified more distinctly. When I am canted at 3 degrees there is a pretty substantial delay between when I start to tip my feet and when the ski actually gets engaged. Adding an additional degree creates a situation where as soon as I tip, I get immediate edge (Big toe edge, we are talking turns to the left with the stance leg being the right one). Now when we go to LTE tipping, it is also significant. It is very hard for me to get to the LTE if I am skiing on one leg at 3 degrees. My balance on the LTE on one ski is poor. Much of this goes away or is less noticable with two skis on the snow. As soon as we put in the additional degree I can immedaitely tip more to the LTE, balance on one ski on the LTE and I can carve instead of brush skiing one legged on the LTE.

The idea that the LTE is alreday engaged may be correct in theory but it isn't what is actually happening with me. What really is ocurring is that with the skis flat my knee is inside of my foot and because of this it must go much further inside my foot to actually engage the BTE. Now it is possible that with my slightly deformed anatomy (with the leg set wrong) that what occurs with my right leg is different than what others experience. But I do have experience with being overcanted on the left side. If I had my choice I would take undercanted instead of overcanted any day. When my left leg was overcanted (meaning too far out creatiing slight bowleggedness while I skied, I could not get away from my BTE (it felt almost permanently engaged) but perhaos to Jim's point because it is so there it is actually hard to fully engage it (it's so present you don't want more of it).

The only other thing that I will say is that I have never seen HH be that wrong when he looks at Video. Sure he can be wrong saying 2 degrees when it really should be 3 or 1.5. But I have never seen him be wrong in that the canting needed to be in the opposite direction. There is a school of canters that actually do the opposite of what Harald espouses by canting bowlegged people further out and canting knock kneeed skiers further in. I am beyong skeptical of this approach because I have huge experience playing with my own canting.

If you are indeed knock kneed and he canted you in it will not only not help your skiing, it will make it a lot worse. Of course it's possible that you are bowlegged and that he canted you in the right direction. Again, I have never seem HH get this wrong on video. I also have no reason to beleive that Billy Kaplan is incorrect other than what you said about HH when he saw your video. Put it in the FWIW category.

LivingProof · « **Reply #5 on:** January 24, 2012, 04:40:31 am »

Max and John,

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm headed for slopes today and I've got plastic canting wedges on my bindings and will ski with the proposed set-up. This weekend I'll be skiing with Helluva and his all-seeing camera, and video should be a great resource.

For sure, no boot work until I get it right.

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2012, 07:04:51 am »

Quote from: jbotti on January 23, 2012, 08:52:33 pm

Now when we go to LTE tipping, it is also significant. It is very hard for me to get to the LTE if I am skiing on one leg at 3 degrees. My balance on the LTE on one ski is poor. Much of this goes away or is less noticable with two skis on the snow. As soon as we put in the additional degree I can immedaitely tip more to the LTE, balance on one ski on the LTE and I can carve instead of brush skiing one legged on the LTE.

This is the crux of what I was trying to regurgitate from the book. Because the center of mass/force is inside of the foot, it's hard to get one footed balance on the ski and especially hard to get the mass/force far enough outside of the foot to get pressure on the LTE.
I'm not sure I can conceptualize John's comment about the foot needing to go much further to engage the BTE because his mass is already inside his foot, but it's clear he understands how it feels to him.
Make sure you share Helluva's assessment, I am curious.
And take a picture of the floating blocks of wood.

Gary · « **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2012, 11:28:43 am »

Mike....I wonder how much tipping you'll be doing this weekend....OFF the mountain?

It took me awhile to find it but being able feel the outside edge as easily as the inside edge of each ski....something I constantly work on having an awarness of and ease of access to.

If you're not aligned correctly from the ankle up....it's very difficult to make the transitions.

Max I like your thoughts regarding range of motion....spot on.

Here's hoping Mike you're almost there....AND if I see you listing to one side...I'll be happy to shove you over to the other.

G

LivingProof · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2012, 05:49:55 pm »

Quote from: Gary on January 24, 2012, 11:28:43 am

Mike....I wonder how much tipping you'll be doing this weekend....OFF the mountain?

Here's hoping Mike you're almost there....AND if I see you listing to one side...I'll be happy to shove you over to the other.

G

G,
If you are suggesting that Svend's IPA this weekend may affect my ability to use the BTE or the LTE of my street shoes, thanks for offering to get me back to the hotel room.

A brief update about today. Because of a forecast for very warm weather, I decided to take out my Sultan 94's for their first day on snow. I did do the cants taped to the bindings per the analysis of my bootfitter. Big mistake to make two changes in one day! The uber-logical engineer should have known better. But, it was a sunny day of fun spring conditions in January. I do have some knee pain tonight following day on the wider boards plus a canting shift, so, it's back to the Shapes tomorrow.

That said, as the day progressed, my preceptors told me that my edge changes were smoother and I could find both edges fairly well. I also think that my skis remained more parallel to each other. It's compounded additionally by continued work on flexing and extending. My minis overextended. In a pm, Max advised me to get some tape of simple flat running on both BTE and LTE, and, that makes a lot of sense in just going back to the on-snow basics. I plan to spend some time reviewing the PMTS material about canting and alignment, then, work on performing the exercises tomorrow. Admittedly, I don't have a clear idea of what properly aligned feels like.

So it's been a good discussion, and, one that we have not entered into before. I am thankful that I don't have big anatomy issues to deal with and I'm fairly close at the onset.

Would someone be willing to share how Harb determines the in-shop basic allignment? I know the acid test is on slope, but, my understanding is they get pretty close.

ToddW · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2012, 06:31:53 pm »

Quote from: LivingProof on January 24, 2012, 05:49:55 pm

Admittedly, I don't have a clear idea of what properly aligned feels like.

Usually it feels awkward or 'all wrong' at first. And then you can't imagine skiing any other way

But watch out. If you hang with Heluva too much, you may have to get realigned. That happens sometimes to skiers whose technique greatly improves.

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:52:48 am »

http://www.fresnoskiclub.com/instruction.htm

How do you know if your alignment needs to be assessed?
Practice a straight run in easy terrain and try balancing on one ski (see figure 1 & 2), ride on it for 10-15 yards and then try to stand and balance on the other ski and ride it for 10-15 yards. What happens when you try this? First, can you balance on one ski? Can you balance and slide with minimal upper or lower body compensation? Does your ski track straight or does it veer one direction or another? If you are having difficulty with this exercise it may be your anatomical alignment keeping you off balance!

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2012, 10:44:32 am »

Quote from: LivingProof on January 24, 2012, 05:49:55 pm

Would someone be willing to share how Harb determines the in-shop basic allignment? I know the acid test is on slope, but, my understanding is they get pretty close.

Things I remember from a camp alignment.
On the snow assessments of the things in the previous post. I think they were looking for out of balance that would be evidenced by a tendency to turn one way or the other.
Balance on one leg and ski straight on a gentle slope.
Traverse straight across the slope on one ski from big toe edge.
Maybe the same on the Little Toe edge. Can you go straight across or do you turn against your will.

Indoors.
Assess the range of motion of the ankle (not a problem for me, don't remember much about it).
Kneel in a chair so they can look at the rear of the foot with the ankle (actually the sub-talar) in a neutral position (problem for me).
Stand on a platform in natural stance. Used a framing square to determine where the center of the mass of the knee was relative to the foot (static alignment?). For me, repeated this standing on foot beds, eventually repeated this in boots.

My focus: Both of my feet have compensated forefoot varus (see the link at the bottom), a twist of the foot to the outside which the body has compensated with by allowing the heel and ankle to collapse to the inside (this is the only way to get the ball of the foot back down to the floor). In street shoes I always felt I walked mostly on the outside of my feet. This was noticed by their inspection of the unloaded foot after manipulating the heel/ankle into a neutral position. Prior molded footbeds I had bought I came to understand as being ineffective because they had me stand on the footbed -- so my ankle and foot were in the compensated position when the footbed was being molded.
Rather than selling me a new footbed, they built up the inside front of the existing footbed to get my heel neutral and still allow the ball of the foot to pressure the boot (imagine skiing without any big toe pressure?). I did appreciate the cost savings at the time.
This also had the side effect of moving my mass ever so slightly to the outside and into very good alignment. Minor cuff alignment, no other canting required.

http://wefixfeet.ca/images/pdf/footdeformities.pdf

HighAngles · « **Reply #12 on:** January 27, 2012, 05:40:22 pm »

There are two schools of thought in regards to canting:
1. Use boot sole canting to re-position the center of knee mass and get the leg properly aligned (HSS preferred method).
2. Use boot sole canting to re-position the ski so that the bottom rides flat to the snow and works with your current leg alignment.

HSS almost always uses #1 except for some very extreme cases which I'm not recalling at the moment.

LivingProof · « **Reply #13 on:** January 27, 2012, 07:46:55 pm »

A very quick update from today at Bristol. I asked Gary to observe how parallel my shins were when skiing. G thinks they are very close to parallel with each other using the degree and one-half shims per the advice of Billy Caplan. Not a day for photo.'s and I hope we can get some video Sunday. I like what I feel.

More to come and thanks to all for the thoughts, Jim R especially, for his remembrances of the process he went through.

Sorry to keep it short, it's been a long day.

LivingProof · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2012, 02:38:14 pm »

Helluva shot some video today. He will send my video file later, but, his quick, first impression is that my alignment, shimmed per Bill Caplan, is close. He also stated that I just really, really need to tip more.....my edge angles are shallow and need to become much higher. Greg's new mantra is " if you stop tipping, just start a new turn (because you ruined the turn). Damn, he can say a lot of truth with a few words.

In watching my video, I thought I was knock kneed on one ski. I intend to go back to flat tomorrow on my right leg and take it from there. That's the leg HH thought should be shimmed toward bow-legged.

Helluva and I discussed that alignment is subject to change as higher angles are achieved. My open question is that if a skier gets lazy with tipping the inside foot and shin, is it probable to to appear knock-kneed?

ToddW · « **Reply #15 on:** January 29, 2012, 05:56:43 pm »

Mike,
A couple years ago, a jbotti post elicited a similar tipping comment from Harald -- the "Golden Rule of Skiing."

Quote

You can take this to the bank: The long arm of PMTS reaches only as far as, the words you choose to heed.

When I ski on GS skis or Super Shape Speeds, I don't cruise the side cut. I try to bend the ski into slalom turns. These efforts force me to refresh and refine my skills. When you go back to a bigger sidecut ski, like SS's, you can add tipping angle and get good results, the ski does more for you with less. Hopefully this will encourage you to do more. I can't tell you the number of times we have heard a student say, "Wow, you meant this much more tipping". "Yes we did, and you are not there yet". Golden rule of skiing: You are never tipping as far as you think.

Lazy tipping makes it difficult to do a superphantom/one-footed release because riding the inside ski on its LTE requires tipping ... hard (at least until you become proficient at this.) So your body will do something "bad" (from a pmts-specific viewpoint) to start the turn if you don't balance on that edge as you release. If that "bad" tactic involves pushing the tail out or "knee angulation" you can get a false appearance of being knock kneed.

At the blue level camps, it's common to hear comments like "double it and then double it again" with it being tipping (your boot, not your coach

) Take this direction to heart. Imagine trying to touch the snow with your boot buckles each time you tip. Keep tipping until you feel certain you're about to boot out. Don't worry, the Golden Rule will save you from the boot out yard sale. And by a big safety margin

LivingProof · « **Reply #16 on:** January 29, 2012, 07:22:39 pm »

Todd,
Thanks for the research and for reinforcing Helluva's first comments to me about the status of my skiing. Surely, it puts the focus of what to work on over the next two days.

LivingProof · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2012, 10:59:10 am »

To bring some interim closure to the alignment issue, I am not going to get boot planning done. There are 3 principal reasons.

First, both Gary and Helluva, while not experts, state my alignment is not that far off. Even measured, we were only looking at 1 or 1.5 degrees.

Second, in my skiing, I can't state I feel a major difference with or without the shims during my 5 day NY trip. I have reviewed Helluva's video and my skiing just sucks. No doubt, I am not tipping my inside leg and counter balance is absent. I'll look at allignment when I am happier about my skiing. This may be counterintuitive, but, that's how I see it.

Third, my knees hurt for 2 days following skiing and that is unusual. I did ski with wide skis for half the days, so, that contributes to the pain.

I will continue to experiment, and, see how it progresses.

Gary · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:18:22 pm »

Mike, it makes me sad to see you say your skiing sucks..

Mikes skiing DOES NOT SUCK....Mike was skiing the hard pack, bumps, the crud, the soft snow and the pow with out any difficulty at all. I think he was having fun...heck...I know he was having fun.

Skiing to improve without the joy of that moment can be frustrating for any skier. My thumbs can attest to helping Mike work with shims beneath his bindings plus the edging and counter drills he worked on to improve his skills. I believe as long these efforts don't overpower your skiing self esteem and diminish the experience.....grea t. Most I know including me are always working on something to improve, heck in every turn. AND do I hate it when a run skis me and I didn't ski it!

Take a look at Tim Teebo or Jim Furek, these guys acording to all the best sports minds don't have the best technique but boy they are getting the job done.

I guess I'm saying ....part of our experience is sharing the yahoos, the glide, all those turns that felt perfect with great ski friends. The tipping and counterbalance on some turns is gonna be better on some than others...not gonna be a sport of perfect.

I know even if we want it bad enough, it MAY NOT be there this moment. Maybe that light bulb turns on down the road on a green run, it just clicks...in any case Mike, you looked solid and comfortable on your skis....I know we skied hard cause we ate like horses!

I always try to remember not to be overly self critical and remember how fortunate we are to be on snow with great friends and great conditions( I describe as anthing white underfoot).

Mike is a gentleman and great guy to ski with....always passing along positive reinforcement and kudos. Now if I could just teach him how to play euchre!

Just like in golf, with skiing...."it's the journey"....g

jbotti · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2012, 10:51:09 pm »

I will second everything that Max has stated. When you ski with improper alignment you are already compensating and developing bad habits. I just had a nice breakthrough in my skiing. Much of it came from working on my counteracting and my counterbalance in my skiing. But I also, after looking at video, added some more canting to my right boot. The difference was huge and it has helped change my skiing especially on that side. One of my chronic bad moves went away almost immediately with the additional canting. The point is that skiers often make movements that are not beneficial because they are compensating for the poor alignment.

Go see Glen and get it done properly and do it soon. It will change your skiing and you will know you are on the right path. This is worth a lot in my opinion (certainly a lot more than he will charge!).

News:

Author Topic: A First Allignment Session (Read 784 times)