Author Topic: Fischer Ski Rant!  (Read 1842 times)

jbotti

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Fischer Ski Rant!
« on: January 18, 2012, 02:08:14 pm »
I own 3 pairs of Fischer skis and I ski on none of them. All 3 pairs are overly grabby and they can be painful to ski on with variable snow conditions. It is especially rough when you go from soft snow and then hit hardpack because they pretty much just rail on hardpack. One of the skis, my Progressor 9+ have had a base grind so we have to at least say it was a bad base grind that caused it. On the other two (a watea 94 and a Watea 84) I have 10 and 35 days repectively and no base grinds. My friend whose tuning knowledge base is much greater than mine was out this past weekend. I told him my issue with the skis and he took out a true bar and we looked at all three pairs of skis. All three are concave, the middle of the base is lower than the base at the edges. This is essentially the opposite of what you want on a ski base.

This may be a downside to buying skis online (I bouight two pairs of these online and one from an authorized dealer). I have no idea if they are covered by the warranty and I don't really care at this point. I have said it before but I am done buying Fischer skis.

My friend Willi Wiltz who prepped skis for the the US Ski team for years, tod me that Fischer is notorious for not letting the skis dry properly after they mold and texture the bases. Instead they throw them in boxes quickly and the skis warp as they dry causing the concave effect. Maybe this is why they were so cheap on the internet and were possibly seconds? Don't know but it seems possible.

It also seems that most people who buy Fischer skis don't have this issue, but I have 3 pairs that this has occurred with. I am having two get a new base grind and that may fix the problem, but there is no way this should be occurring.

You can all put it in the FWIW category.


LivingProof

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2012, 04:59:45 pm »
JB,

I understand that the base can continue to cure and shrink following final factory finishing of the ski, and, your results do not say much for Fisher QC. A friend skied the 9+ in a Nastar event I participated in this weekend. He loves them for that format for the grip on hard snow you described plus the turn radius fits pretty well. I find it hard to believe Fisher would keep and sell "seconds" of a top of the line ski ( I have been know to be naive ). Helluva sends a whole bunch of helluva-dollars to Fisher, I await him weighing in on this issue.

If the 9+ went through a base grind and still remains concave, I would think that both Fisher and the base grind shop did not do their QC work. I don't see how a base grind would introduce concave. I've read various posts stating that if the ski is flat for 1/2" to 1" from each side, and then concave only in the middle, it should not be detrimental.

And, for the record, I'm jealous that you can ski from soft onto real hard. A luxury not often seen east of the Mississippi.

HeluvaSkier

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2012, 06:09:17 pm »
I only ski on Fischer race product, so I don't know how their pedestrian skis perform... I've never had this problem with my race skis though. They all arrive in amazing condition.

If you want, I can send you my address, you can box the skis up and send them to me for evaluation.
All-Mountain: A common descriptive term for boots or skis that are designed to perform equally poorly under a variety of conditions and over many different types of terrain.

LivingProof

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 05:21:52 am »
Max,
Funny how definitions remain inconsistent. John stated "they rail on hardpack". My mind translated that as "just leaving RR tracks" or that they just get up on the edges very well.

@ Helluva

You pull no punches.......and know how to turn a phrase

"PEDESTRIAN SKIS"  :o :o
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 02:29:00 pm by LivingProof »

Svend

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 07:48:11 am »
Hey John, not sure what's going on with your Fischers.  We have three pairs in the family -- P9, P8, and a Maunga twin tip -- and they are all fine.  You'd mentioned this problem before, and since then I check them regularly with a straight edge -- all good so far. 

The P8 had a base grind last year on a Wintersteiger machine, and came out perfectly.  Still flat after a year and about 20 days skiing.

BTW, the first pair of Progressors that I had -- the '08 RC4 -- also needed a base grind when I got them because they were edge high, just like yours are (if you recall, I bought them used).  Once that same Wintersteiger machine had at them, they were perfect and stayed that way until I sold them a few months later.  You remember the provenance of those skis -- perhaps that's more than a coincidence?

The P9s do have very aggressive edge grip -- the most of any ski I've been on.  I have to detune the tips and tails to get them to stop grabbing in soft bumps.  I like the hard edge grip, as they hold exceedingly well on a steep icy slope.  But they certainly don't rail in the way you mean it.  I've been on demo and rental skis with that kind of tune, and it is awful....unskiable almost.

FWIW, there are a lot of Fischer skis sold in this area, esp. their race models, and they have an excellent reputation for quality amongst the locals.  I have never heard anyone say anything but good things, and this even from people who don't sell them.  They are generally regarded as superior to the other major ski makers in terms of quality and performance.

From personal experience, the steel edges on all our Fischers seem harder and hold a tune longer than other skis, and their PTEX bases seem much harder and less prone to scratching and gouging.  I am impressed, as it makes my tuning and repair work much lighter.  Head skis seem to be not nearly as good in that regard.

Good luck with sorting this out, and keep us posted if you find out anything more.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 08:17:45 am by Svend »

HighAngles

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2012, 09:30:27 pm »
I don't ski any ski fresh out of the wrapper.  All skis are ground flat if they're not flat already and then I hand set the side and base bevels to my preference.  I have NEVER found a single pair of skis that didn't need a tune when new (and I own/have owned a lot of skis - still have almost 20 in my current quiver).  The best of the bunch are my Stocklis and even those need some care and attention before they hit the snow.

IMO, expecting a ski to work to its potential without a personal tune is like starting a race 100 yards behind the starting line.

jbotti

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2012, 10:48:30 pm »
Nearly all of my skis have been fine out of the wrapper.

Same here. A ski should not need a base grind to ski it, ever!!

Gary

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2012, 08:40:15 am »
When I buy new, I run a flat bar on the bases to make sure they're right....never yet had a pair that weren't...however,
I have had new skis come with edges different on each side of the same ski and or both skis needing file work to make them G-perfect.  8)

I too am a big believer of having the skis spot on before I ski. When away skiing consective days, at end of each day skiing, I always run a diamond stone on the edges to make sure they're ready for the next days carving.

Make um right, big delight!
G

LivingProof

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2012, 09:23:57 am »
Going a bit off topic, but it is Fisher related.

The liners of their new line of heat shrink boots seem to be causing quite a stink. Many already putting aftermarket liners to address both comfort and wear. Great news for Intuition et al, but, bad for the consumer. Another example solidifying my preference to avoid first production years of almost anything. Reminiscent of Dalbello's initial effort to develop a 4 buckle race boot that also debuted with poor liners.

I wonder how Fisher will warranty these boots?




HeluvaSkier

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2012, 09:44:51 am »
An interesting note on liners... they are almost all made by the same factory in Italy. Plug liners are virtually all the same.
All-Mountain: A common descriptive term for boots or skis that are designed to perform equally poorly under a variety of conditions and over many different types of terrain.

jbotti

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2012, 10:59:30 am »
Could it be that many people in the Fischer Vacuum have never been in a plug/race liner before and they are expecting way too much. Sounds like that could be the issue. If this is the case, then I doubt they will "fix it".  Clearly many people with wide feet that are used to cushy liners in wide last boots have gone to the Vacuum boot.

Gary

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2012, 12:22:02 pm »
I've got a friend who Mike will meet this weekend in Ellicotville...Paul R. from Pittsburg...

He has the narliest feet with stumps and bumps from many years of martathons, college baseketball etc...really hard feet to fit off of the shelf. He also has a size 30 boot...not available in the Fischer Vac yet. When I was with him in Park City last month, he tried to buy a pair of the FV boots....based on  what Mike is saying...good thing the didn't have his size. I did not take out the liner to look at it but man, the modifications they can do to the boot...the concept is very intriguing. But I agree Mike...let it mature on the market first so the bugs get worked out. The store said Fischer is expexeted to bring in larger sizes next year...good thing for Paul.

I was told by their fitter, no matter what shape foot, thin or wide, the boot can be expanded or shrunk to accomodate the individuals God given appendage. I think more feedback from others would be helpful.

Anybody heard about their on mountain performance?

G

jim-ratliff

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2012, 03:49:48 pm »



Since Lynn and I spent some time in Jans in Park City, and since they had the Fischer machine there, we chatted some about the Vacuum boots.
The two bootfitters there say everyone they have worked with raves about the boot (including several employees) and implied several were pretty high-end skiers.
They also said the line would be dramatically expanded next year (implied that half the Fischer lineup would be vacuum molded). He also said the boots were less affected by cold as far and getting them off at the end of the day (I took that with a grain of salt, plastic is still plastic).
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

ToddW

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2012, 05:41:08 pm »
Same here. A ski should not need a base grind to ski it, ever!!

Shouldn't.  But some Head product has been shipping with base bevels up to 2* the last couple years.  See HH's strongly worded comment (below) about this on a Head promotional video in the peak performance ski shop's youtube channel.

Quote
Why is the base tune of HEad skis so "detuned", to 2 degrees, this makes the skis skid out from under skiers on hard snow? We have to send our skis out to be re-tuned even when new, out of the wrapper? Does HEad want to pay for the retuning? ....

jbotti

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2012, 11:00:04 pm »
I guess I have been lucky with Head skis in that I have alwyas had a very and nicely skiable base grind and bevel from the facttory on all their skis I have bought. I have heard people talking about the terrible Head factory tunes but I have yet to experience it first hand.

ToddW

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2012, 06:47:51 pm »
I got a pair of kers supershapes late last season that was overbevelled.  Geoffda skied them and made his opinion clear  :o  They're definitely more fun now at 0.5 base.

HighAngles

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2012, 11:23:08 am »
Some clarification is in order.  Base geometry is rarely off on most skis these days.  However, edge geometry is a completely different story.  Do most people really know how to check the edge geometry of a new ski from tip to tail?  I doubt most people have the tools or the know-how.  Trust me when I tell you that you will get more out of your new skis if you go to the trouble of ensuring that they are setup to your preferences from day one.  Yes, you may be just fine with them out of the wrapper, but I can pretty much guarantee that at least the edge geometry is not consistent or correct.

BTW - I've been hand-tuning skis for about 25 years.  Over that period I've probably owned well over 100 skis (it may actually be closer to 200, but I've never counted).  I currently have around 20 pairs sitting in my house.  I think my observations are statistically valid.

jim-ratliff

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 02:34:38 pm »



HA:  You must own a ski manufacturing plant or work in a ski shop?  How do you happen to have access to that many skis, and to have that many skis in the house?  I'm beyond impressed.


Let me know, but I think I need to add some special category to your ski profile.  Most of us, the system just counts forum posts.  Maybe we need to count "number of skis demoed."

"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Svend

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 03:19:37 pm »
I currently have around 20 pairs sitting in my house.

And please include a picture of your storage (warehousing?) system.  There are 8 pairs in our house, soon to be 9, and I don't know where to put them all.  Innovative storage solutions are needed.  Please help.....   ;D

HighAngles

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2012, 03:28:17 pm »
I'm just a horribly addicted hobbiest for the most part.  :o

I'm actually looking into a better garage storage system.  For the moment I have 5 pairs in the garage, 9 pairs in the laundry room, and around 6 pairs in the basement (at least that I recall).  My wife has been more accepting of the situation since I sold off 7 pairs this past Fall.

If I could find a way to make serious money with my skiing addiction I would be doing that in a heartbeat.  I have some ideas, but my day job doesn't give me enough time to focus my energy.

Svend

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2012, 08:19:54 pm »
This is all good! If 20 or 30 is the new normal, then I will hasten to tell my wife the great news.  If another pair or two....or three, make it into the family quiver, she will know that I am being restrained and frugal and respect me for it.  Perspective is everything in such matters.  Thanks guys! You've made my day.... ;D

« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 08:21:37 pm by Svend »

midwif

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 06:56:56 am »
This is all good! If 20 or 30 is the new normal, then I will hasten to tell my wife the great news.  If another pair or two....or three, make it into the family quiver, she will know that I am being restrained and frugal and respect me for it.  Perspective is everything in such matters.  Thanks guys! You've made my day.... ;D

Yes, a new normal has arrived!
Terryl and I DEFINITELY need to go shoe shopping together and explore this concept :P
"Play it Sam"

LivingProof

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 07:07:37 am »
This is all good! If 20 or 30 is the new normal, then I will hasten to tell my wife the great news.  If another pair or two....or three, make it into the family quiver, she will know that I am being restrained and frugal and respect me for it.  Perspective is everything in such matters.  Thanks guys! You've made my day.... ;D

Svend,
On our recent NY trip, I introduced the gang to the phrase "pretzel logic". The above fits! But, hey, I've got too many skis, so, who am I to talk. And never ask me about 'old golf clubs'.

Svend

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 07:47:36 am »
Yes, a new normal has arrived!
Terryl and I DEFINITELY need to go shoe shopping together and explore this concept :P

Lynn -- Oh no you don't! Subversive, you are......  This applies only to skis.  Terryl has been waaay beyond the 30 shoe pair norm for decades already.  I have considered installing a robotic storage and retrieval system, complete with bar code scanners and punch pad, just so she can organize and store them all.  Imelda had nothing on her.  Besides, if we do go down the road of ski buying frenzy, she will be a greater beneficiary than I will.  I could easily drop at least 2 pairs into her quiver without blinking.  So there!

Svend,
On our recent NY trip, I introduced the gang to the phrase "pretzel logic". The above fits! But, hey, I've got too many skis, so, who am I to talk. And never ask me about 'old golf clubs'.

Pretzel Logic! Love it! Haven't heard that term used in years.  Not since the Steely Dan album was big way back then.  And I practice it all the time, but had forgotten to apply that moniker to it.  Great philosophy, that is. 


ToddW

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 03:51:50 pm »
Yes, a new normal has arrived!
Terryl and I DEFINITELY need to go shoe shopping together and explore this concept :P

Lynn, as you acquire the shoes keep in mind the storage conditions they'll encounter:  5 pairs in the garage, 9 pairs in the laundry room, and around 6 pairs in the basement.  It wouldn't do to buy basement shoes for the laundry room or vice versa.  Note also that closet shoes are not permitted in this paradigm.

midwif

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 06:21:38 pm »
I'm in big trouble.
I don't have a laundry room! :o

L.
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meput

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 06:32:54 pm »
Lynn,

You told Todd and me that you let Jim take care of all the mechanical stuff with your bikes and skis. Since you have no laundry room, does that mean you let Jim do all the laundry as well?? ::)?

midwif

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 07:11:38 pm »
Are you kidding? :o

I care what color my whites are.....like 'em to stay white.

No, to Jim doing my laundry. :P

But, I am very willing to let him give me his best opinion on tires, handle bars etc.....


L.
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Svend

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2013, 04:57:57 pm »
I own 3 pairs of Fischer skis and I ski on none of them. All 3 pairs are overly grabby and they can be painful to ski on with variable snow conditions. It is especially rough when you go from soft snow and then hit hardpack because they pretty much just rail on hardpack. One of the skis, my Progressor 9+ have had a base grind so we have to at least say it was a bad base grind that caused it. On the other two (a watea 94 and a Watea 84) I have 10 and 35 days repectively and no base grinds. My friend whose tuning knowledge base is much greater than mine was out this past weekend. I told him my issue with the skis and he took out a true bar and we looked at all three pairs of skis. All three are concave, the middle of the base is lower than the base at the edges. This is essentially the opposite of what you want on a ski base.

This may be a downside to buying skis online (I bouight two pairs of these online and one from an authorized dealer). I have no idea if they are covered by the warranty and I don't really care at this point. I have said it before but I am done buying Fischer skis.

My friend Willi Wiltz who prepped skis for the the US Ski team for years, tod me that Fischer is notorious for not letting the skis dry properly after they mold and texture the bases. Instead they throw them in boxes quickly and the skis warp as they dry causing the concave effect. Maybe this is why they were so cheap on the internet and were possibly seconds? Don't know but it seems possible.

It also seems that most people who buy Fischer skis don't have this issue, but I have 3 pairs that this has occurred with. I am having two get a new base grind and that may fix the problem, but there is no way this should be occurring.

You can all put it in the FWIW category.

John, I have a theory as to why this might be happening.  This may be all moot, as you may not be skiing on Fischers anymore, but perhaps it may still be pertinent.

I was waxing a pair of Progressor 8's a few evenings ago, and noticed that the iron was not contacting the PTEX at the edges of the skis at the tail, and less so at the tips. Strange, thought I.  There was about a 3/4" band at the tails, and 1/4" to 1/2" near the tips, where the iron was clearly not contacting the base along the edge.  I let the skis cool, brushed and polished, then checked with a straightedge for flatness, and found them to be perfect.  Absolutely bang-on flat from tip to tail.  Doubly strange.  ???

These skis perform fine, and I checked them in at the start of the season to make sure they were flat - no issues.  I also checked the base of the iron, and it was also perfectly flat.

I repeated this on the same skis the very next evening (different temp wax needed), and the same thing happened.  By comparison, all the other skis I waxed over those two evenings - Nordicas, Elans, Dynastars and Heads - did not show this behaviour when heated by the iron.  Only the Fischers.

So, I am surmising that the heat of the iron caused the bases of the Progressors to swell so that they were no longer flat and even with the edges.  There might be something about the materials or construction of the Fischer bases that might be at the root of this.

John, in your case, if the heat of friction from the base grinding was excessive and not kept sufficiently cool, then the bases of your Fischers may have swelled.  The machine would then have flattened a swollen ski, which upon cooling after the grind, would have shrunken to a shape that was then edge-high (concave).  This would explain the railing behaviour you experienced.  It may be that Fischers (or at least some models) are particularly sensitive and susceptible to elevated temperatures during grinding, where skis from other makers are not.

FYI, I have had four pairs of Fischers base ground -- RC4 Progressor; Progressor 9; Maunga twins; and Progressor 8 -- and none of them have come out anything but perfectly flat.  These were done on either a Wintersteiger or a Montana machine, both of which (I believe) use water cooling to keep the temps down during grinding.

It would be interesting to run this by your tuning guy, and see what he says.  I may be way off on this, but I do know for a fact that the Progressor 8's did not stay flat during ironing.  I will test this on the other Fischers we still have (Maunga twins) and see if they do the same.  Unfortunately my P-9s are now with Gary's son, so I can't test it out on those.

Let me know what you think, and if you get any feedback from your shop.

Cheers,

Svend
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 05:08:33 pm by Svend »

Gary

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2013, 11:36:49 am »
P9's all good...my son loves them and has had them on hard snow, crud and 9 inches of pow....

Edges and bases...true....I do have to say...Fisher steel and base durablity...some of the best for wear and tear I've seen.

G

Svend

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2013, 11:49:37 am »
Gary - I agree.  Head seem to be much more susceptible to scratching and gouging than Fischer or Dynastar.  And Fischer edges seem to hold their sharpness longer, as well.  I have been nothing but impressed with their build quality.

And great news that Jason is loving my former P-9s.  For the right mountain, a ripping-fun ski.  Super light and agile at low speeds, but the faster you go the calmer and quieter they become.  Amazing.  I'm happy that they are in the right hands.


Gary

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2013, 11:57:21 am »
Forged from VIKING STEEL!

Jason after coming off the RX8's has found the P9's to be much more to his liking. .....Well...it's way more ski me thinks.

But thanks Svend....Jason couldn't be happier. BTW his othe skis are the Rossi S3's...all his bases covered.

Point taken on the Fischer edges...after sking all day, I like to check our skis for burrs...His P9's were almost like they just came off the tuning bench...where my Kastle FX84's seemed a little more ......ahem.....work ed over...could be just me.

But yeah....those Fischer edges just seem to hold up better all around. He has my RX's 8s from 4 years ago and I couldn't believe how good the edges were earlier this season when I checked them for him.

I'll be sending you our Kastle and Head skis to put them into your custom made Viking Forge! ;)   G

byronm

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2013, 01:52:47 am »
Quote
This would explain the railing behaviour[/quote
 
Not to untrack dialogue...quick explanation of "railing" please? I ask because I checked my BlizzMag76's last night and there is definate concave sections at tip and tail...4x2" or so at contact areas.
 
Thx....
 
 

Svend

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2013, 11:45:03 am »
Byron, if a ski is edge high (bases concave), then the ski will behave as if on rails.  Hard to disengage from turns, grabby and over-aggressive edge grip, hard to drift or side-slip, edge grip "always on"...that kind of thing.  Basically very hard to control and will not want to turn readily.  Bases can get this way if they dry out and are not kept waxed, or if the skis are summer stored in the wrong place like a hot garage, esp. if you didn't put storage wax on before putting them away for the season (you should do this no matter where they are stored; even a cool basement).


byronm

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2013, 08:01:18 pm »
Guilty....of all charges.....althoug h they did have wax on.... but the wax had two or three ski days on them... then put up in the hot garage...... :o  I see a base grind in the crystal ball.....another lesson learned the hard way...

LivingProof

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2013, 06:52:05 am »
Byron,

Railing is much more an issue when the railed portion is in the midpoint of a ski (under the boot) and convex area is within a half inch or so of the edges. If your ski has some minor railing near the tips or tails, or, just in the center area of the bases, it's far less problematic. I'd have your local shop, who would do the tune, take a look at it first.

My belief is railing is associated with the cooling phase of construction, and, when rectified, it should not recur. Some skis are known have railing issues and that's how this thread started. Most shops should check, and correct, for this when purchasing locally.

Svend

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Re: Fischer Ski Rant!
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2013, 08:52:34 am »
My belief is railing is associated with the cooling phase of construction, and, when rectified, it should not recur. Some skis are known have railing issues and that's how this thread started. Most shops should check, and correct, for this when purchasing locally.

Mike, in your experience, is this mfg. fault evident at the time of ski purchase, or does it sometimes crop up after a few months of actual use? Say, a half season or so, a few hot wax applications (heat/cool cycles)....that sort of thing?