Greetings...Newby Here

[byronm]

Hi Folks, new to the forum. Thought I would introduce myself. Returning to skiing after 25+ yrs. First a one time thing, then twice, etc. to spend a bit of family time with kids & gkids...well, I am hooked again. Have four, yup indeed 4 full days of skiing under my belt.

I have been reading voraciously, watching tube reviews on equip and technique to "catch up" since all the above have changed slightly since the late 70's early 80's 

[LivingProof]

Byronm

Welcome to the Real Skiers site. Like you, I returned to skiing following a decade or so away, and, it has just changed my life so much for the better.

Where are you located and where do you ski.

Feel free to jump in on any topic. We are a very open, albeit small, group.

[midwif]

Welcome Byronm!

It's very nice to have an actual new member who skis!
And isn't from Senegal or Asia. (the bots, you know)

Welcome back to skiing.

Since you have family members skiing, it might be very useful for you to join
the parent site ; Realskiers.com for $20/yr.

Excellent ski reviews on current and past skis which can assist in narrowing down choices in gear for yourself and family.
And look for deals on skis.

Again, welcome to the forum.

Lynn

[byronm]

Thx Max I appreciate it...

[byronm]

Could I ask for opinions on getting new boots aligned via a machine.
 
I purchased boots without the benefit of an expert boot fitter. After litterally two days of trying on, walking around, about six hours total and about 12 different pairs, some that had to be brought in from other chain stores in the area.
 
While, they feel great, fit great...Ironically, after the fact I found a small shop (in the desert where I live  ) that has a bootfitter certified by master fit  and an alignment machine.
 
I don't know that much about the process but have read varying things from it is the best thing since slice bread and essential.....to more of fine tuning for pro skier or a correction for one who naturally has alignment issues.
 
Thoughts please??

[jim-ratliff]

I personally had my alignment done my Harb Ski Systems as well. Not saying that they are the only place, but they are very good. 

Having said that, here are some thoughts.
MasterFit is a good organization, and shops that have gone through their certification are usually pretty good.

They've had various machines over the years; the last that I saw in use, you stood on a pressure sensitive platform and it determined your balance by measuring the pressures on the base of the boot. It showed a neat  diagram, and as a validation of balance it seemed reasonable.

However, I was just curious about the machine, I already had custom foot beds that were developed based on assessing my feet and the range of motion of my ankle. In my case I have forefoot varus so the footbed compensates for that to get me into a neutral stance. No one prior to Harb had ever noted that about my feet before.  The next step is then measuring alignment and getting that balanced so that your pressure on the ski doesn't change as you flex your knees. And their philosophy is that you really can't do a complete alignment without assessing the results on the snow.

Summary: Good boot fit and alignment is really important, and especially alignment.  I would at least give the certified bootfitter a call, describe your situation, see what he says. He might offer to do a free analysis; which would allow you to see if the services he then tries to sell you are of interest and/or make sense.

[LivingProof]

Byron,

In your initial boot fit, did the sales person do a "shell fit" by removing the liner, inserting your foot with toes just touching front of boot, and then measure the space between realrof boot and your heel. That space should be about 1/2 inch in a performance boot. You simply cannot fix a boot that is to big, there are many things that can be done to eliminate hot spots. A correct shell fit probably means that you will experience some pain until you get time on slopes, and, them get some work done. As you have not used them, can you return them for refund or store credit. What boot did you buy? Will the store supply bootfitting support if your boots hurt after skiing. (Although as you live in the desert, you may need immediate help at a mountain.)

I would recommend taking the boots to Masterfit and get an opioid of a trained fitter. That would include an analysis of flat your boots sit on the floor in your normal stance. Our body geometry causes knock kneeed or bow legged conditions that can impact your skiing. A friend just got boots, then needed 3 degrees of correction, which the original boots could not accommodate.

On this forum, most of us pay great attention to dialing in their personal boots, but, we also have a good idea of what we want and enough experience to make the change. Honestly, I would recommend  a little larger boot and the comfort, rather, than get squeezed into something too tight - especially if were a first boot. Having a good bootfitter can help you through the maze.

[byronm]

Ok...I just learned not to begin a post and leave the computer w/out clicking the stay logged in thing...  
 
So here we go again. Long story short, I originally purchased low end boots on a whim, before ski addiction re-manifested. At the urge of beyond and philpug at epic and one day skiing on them, I returned them to the shop for credit. After an arduous two day process of trying on boots brought in from all three stores, I found a much better quality set that fit. They are the Salomon Impact 100cs.
 
The store does have a garantee fit program but I litterally tried every quality boot they had in all three of their stores in the phx. metro area. I might be able to get credit towards skis.
 
The staff at the shop were nice young men but not "boot fitters" per se. I had read forums and articles about boot fitting, most of which recommended expert fitting but the closest "Master" boot fitters recommended to me were in Taos, NM and Vail, Co. both three day r-trips by car or airfare.  Quite frankly, I really couldnt get away and afford the mix of traveling to buy boots, buying skis AND SKIING as much as poss. this short season.
 
I rationalized, if I were maticulous with the fit, some of the travel expenses could perhaps be better directed towards a higher quality boot. Of course, then while searching for demo skis, I stumble onto a certified boot fitter within my area. Go figure.
 
One of the things prompting my question is that I demoed some Rossi Aveng 82ti's with the new boots the other day and the skis were unstable at speed, sluggish and unresponsive unless my nose was nearly out over the tips. The exact opposite was true the week before when I demoed some Volkl's while wearing the "cheapo" boots. Poor technique perhaps a common denominator, logic would suggest that either the skis were not tuned properly or my new boots are affecting my skiing.
 
Bottom line: I made a pretty significant investment in the boots and just want to make sure they are the best they can be.
 
Update; Took the advice....I just talked to the boot fitter and scheduled an appt. for tomorrow. He says he has a machine that does provide an image of my foot that he uses along with other devices. He seemed very knowledgeable (I'm obviously not best critic) He said that in almost every case, a custom footbed in one form or another is needed to dial in alignment. At a cost of anywhere from $79.00-$140.00 and a potential few more days in the doghouse....
 
Let me know your thoughts and I will keep you updated.....Thx all
 
 
 
 

[Liam]

Byron,

The Salomon's are good boots and have one of the best customizable shells in the business (which allows you to go pretty tight with a shell fit, then cook and conform the shells (not just the liners) themselves.  Did your Salomon dealer do this?

As for ski demos..what length of each ski did you try.  My guess is that the Avenger was quite a bit longer than the volkl AND the tune was bad AND you might need an update on modern technique to get the feel for skis like that.  Truth is Rossi Avenger line is a very user friendly ski with a decent performance envelope.

Welcome back to skiing!  Where have you skied so far this season?

Liam

[LivingProof]

Byron,

Liam works in a ski shop, so, value his knowledge. Ask your bootfitter what insoles he sells and post it here. Some are better than others.

My experience, upon returning to skiing, was that it took some time to adjust to the newer shape skis. I expected way too much in the first turns and no magic happened. By the next day, I figured it out - a little. Very quickly, I did hit a plateau and I had no idea how to get better. Several who post here are ardent followers of Harald Harb's PMTS ski technique and that's where I learned, via books and CD, how to perform the correct body movements needed to make the new skis perform. Harald has some YouTube video, I'll check later to see if there is a very basic one showing how to "tip your skis".

[byronm]

Thanks Liam for the welcome and the input. You too LP and JimR
 
Thus far, have only skied in Northern Az, Flagstaff and Sunrise in SE Az.  However, I am (hopefully) headed to Purgatory, Co. next week, providing I can guilt my kid into making room for dad. A group of her coworkers have share rented a condo and  are splitting gas expenses. I might have to ride on top like granny Griswold if they lack vehicle room. Could be chilly. 
 
Liam, in terms of the skis, both demo's were 170cm. Conditions relatively the same. The only, (well most obvious) tangible difference;  rental grade 70 to 80 flex boot vs. the new Impact 100's. The fitter was also perplexed at my bad avenger 82ti experience. He shared your view as a generally user friendly ski. He speculated that my lightish frame at 140lbs, a new boot with a markedly stiffer flex profile (more on that below), a ski probably stiffer than needed for my current skiing profile and perhaps a bad tune could have factored. 
 
The boot saga>>I met with the fitter yesterday..JimR FYI, the fitter struck me as very qualified. His parents owned a ski shop in mid-west. He grew up working there. Co-owns current shop with his wife who did some collegiate level or circuit racing before blowing out a knee. He acknowledged Master Fit certification, tactfully stated, the training is good, the piece of paper cool, but bunches of boots and bunches of feet make a fitter.
 
So, after the standard length/width measure, he commenced a series of tests involving the flexion of my big toe and ankle. Indeed he had me stand on the pressure sensitive machine displaying layout and pressure points of my feet. Using a laptop and software similar to v1 pro which I have seen used to analyze golf swings, he produced side by side images of the footprints in standing, then ski positions. My right foot imprint was markedly different than my left in both positions. He then produced front angle, side by side images of my legs in a standing vs skiing position. Utilizing a grid embedded within the image, produced a linear line from knee to sole to illustrate the alignment relationship in both positions. My right ankle showed visible offset/pronation to the inside as opposed to my left while in my ski stance. Probably because I broke that ankle twice when younger.
 
So, how much was techno sales fluff and how much substance? Well, the fitter clearly supports the notion of creating as much symmetry in alignment as possible to get one flat on skis. But he also expressed that he has seen far worse, asserting that the degree of correction needed in my case was relatively mild. He explained that while a custom footbed would definitely resolve my alignment issue and improve the overall synergy between my foot and ski, he pointed out that at my current level, it would probably not prompt a performance epiphany. An honest revelation that I appreciated. So much so, I went with my gut and purchased a custom footbed. Every little bit helps right? What's another few bucks if you're already in the poo-house. 
LP-The type of footbed I purchased was the Kork-Vack by Superfeet.
 
Now the dilemma; I could use some opinions here folks. The custom bed is a done deal for better or worse @ $140. According to the technician it can be retrofitted to most any other boot of same size or smaller with relative ease. The concern is the degree of stiffness at 100 flex. While he plumb bobbed (yes I said plumb bobbed) my knee cap as I flexed forward in the boots, he noticed I had to exert a fair amount of effort (at room temp) to get the knee cap to cover up my big toe. The adjustment screws in the back did not make a noticeable diff. Thus, he feels I am on the very top end of the flex scale for my weight and skiing profile. He postulates this could have been the reason I was not able to engage the tips of a typically user friendly set of rossi ski vs the others.
 
My options as he views them; (1) Demo the same Volkl skis I had good luck with initially and compare results. (2) Return the boots, to the other store and get another model that fits in 90 Flex. (3) He can make a modification to my existing boot to increase the forward flex by slightly lowering or extending the "V" (my term) of the boot inner shell just above the ankles (my definition again) Apparently something fitters do this on occasion. Considerations: I already have over ten hours invested in boot finding and tuning.  Well over six bills invested so far. Boot fits great but may be too stiff to allow enough forward flexion to engage tips. I do think the fitter is competent and honest?.but
 
Anyone heard of this problem and subsequent boot modification?  Thoughts please on door #'s 1 - 3? 
 
Thx All?. Sorry for this long post!
 

[Gary]

Welcome and regarding the flex of the boot....

My question would be when standing in your boots on a flat hard surface all buckled up... place you arms in your pole carry position, let the knees relax..

where do you feel your weight...

are you on the balls of your feet, on your heels or centered over the top of your ankles? I have found this to be a critical starting point to sucessfull all mountain skiing.

If you are directly centered over your arches with equal presure on the front and rear of the the tongue, you might look at the mounting position of your bindings on your skis. Sometimes just moving that binding forward 10 to 15mm will allow for better fore aft control of your skis.

These are things that have helped me tremendously.   Best of luck...G

[jim-ratliff]

He acknowledged Master Fit certification, tactfully stated, the training is good, the piece of paper cool, but bunches of boots and bunches of feet make a fitter.

An Excellent comment.

So, how much was techno sales fluff and how much substance? Well, the fitter clearly supports the notion of creating as much symmetry in alignment as possible to get one flat on skis. But he also expressed that he has seen far worse, asserting that the degree of correction needed in my case was relatively mild. He explained that while a custom footbed would definitely resolve my alignment issue and improve the overall synergy between my foot and ski, he pointed out that at my current level, it would probably not prompt a performance epiphany. An honest revelation that I appreciated. So much so, I went with my gut and purchased a custom footbed. Every little bit helps right? What's another few bucks if you're already in the poo-house. 

I would have made the same decision.  Maybe no epiphanyin the short term, but building a house on a sound foundation is always a good plan.

While he plumb bobbed (yes I said plumb bobbed) my knee cap as I flexed forward in the boots, he noticed I had to exert a fair amount of effort (at room temp) to get the knee cap to cover up my big toe.

The plumb bobbing is common. That checks static alignment of the center of mass of the knee over somewhere on the toes (I think between the big and second toe).

Boot fits great but may be too stiff to allow enough forward flexion to engage tips. I do think the fitter is competent and honest?.but .....  Anyone heard of this problem and subsequent boot modification?  Thoughts please on door #'s 1 - 3? 

Now we are at the limits of my knowledge, so hopefully someone else will chime in.  I had the flex of my boots softened in the same manner, so I would say that's a valid option. There are other options for moving your knee forward -- for example, putting a shim under the heels.  If they are adjustable, moving ski bindings forward, as Gary mentioned, will move your center of mass forward on the ski.

I don't agree that bending the boot is a goal. Balance is the goal, and when you get out of balance the boot cuff is a lever you can use to regain balance. I guess I think that if the pressure pad doo-dad showed the balance distribution that he was satisfied with, then I wouldn't worry too much about the flex, but I would file the information away or I might ask if he thinks you should have a shim under the heel. Perhaps you have short lower legs and longer femurs or something like that. If he was comfortable that you had the right size and that they are a good fit for your foot width, then keep the boots. Getting more upper body weight over the front of the ski will happen over time as well. Time to ski?! 

[byronm]

Hi All, thx Gary for the welcome and input.
With regard to balanced position, during the flex (plumb bob) test I felt well balanced and centered to start. The issue presented itself when asked to flex forward with both legs. I felt like I had to lean or bow my upper body for additional leverage to get any visible flex. However, with one leg, I was able to flex the boot without coming off my center. Thus, my feeling that they could be just a touch to stiff. Jim, the fitter did try a heal wedge and there didnt seem to be a noticeable difference.
 
Maybe I am overanalyzing the issue. I guess the real test will be clarified on the hill as I continue to demo skis get my ski legs back under me after many years away.Quite frankly,
I dont think I could get a better fit...while stiff...they feel great  even at the end of the day my first time out on them!
 
Should the problem persist on the hill with any regularity, I will explore the boot mod that Jim mentioned or the binding placement option as mentioned by Gary.
 
Just curious Jim, how did your boot mod work out for you?
 
Thx all for the input.
 
 

[jim-ratliff]

Maybe I am overanalyzing the issue. I
Just curious Jim, how did your boot mod work out for you?

Hmm.  It's been a couple of years now.  If I remember, the difference wasn't very noticeable. I had it done at the same time that I was getting some pressure points over the little toe and in front of my right ankle relieved, so it's hard to have a clear before and after feel. 
My real problem, however, was/is that I'm lazy and stand too upright rather than being more forward in a better stance.  Working on correcting my stance and getting pressure against the front of the boot has done more to help get pressure to the front of the ski than the flex changes.  Shin pressure against the tongue of the boot results in pressure to the front of the ski

[LivingProof]

Byron,

In the new world of shaped skis, there is much less need to push against the front of your ski boot. Don't push plastic. The stiffness of a modern boot helps keep it more laterally rigid so that as you bring the boot to an edge on the snow, the ski comes up off the snow with it.

It's much more about rolling your knees from side to side to turn, and, using the muscles in your feet to power his tipping. Simply focus on maintaining light contact between your shins and the boot's tongue. You will keep your knees flexed with weight more toward the center and balls of your feet. If you feel the back of the boot touching the calf, start centering and refeel the front contact.

Just a quick mini lesson.

[jbotti]

Byron,

In the new world of shaped skis, there is much less need to push against the front of your ski boot. Don't push plastic.

I think there is still plenty of need to pressure the front of the boot as that is how one creates pressure on the tips which is necessary for good skiing (at least with good PMTS skiing). If what you are saying is that you don't want a boot that flexes a ton when you get forward on the cuff, I agree with that.

[byronm]

Thx JB and LP for the input...& Max, great link..thx for that...very enlightening in terms boot stiffness and flex..HH's (155lbs) comments very relevent to me, at a buck forty. Both helped to dispell the impression that I need to "flex" the boot forward as opposed to "pressure" the front to engage tips..(hope my skinny shins hold up) While they are talking hi performance skiing, I would assume part of the reason for softer boot movement, at least in the recreational skier segment is geared towards comfort. Glad I went with something in the medium range. 
 
Obviously, I have a long way to go getting up to speed on technique as well as modern terminology. I do have a novice question about boot term oft used. "cuff" generally refers to the top portion of boot (top buckle/power strap) area yes? There was some reference to allowing this to be "bit" looser as opposed straight jacket tight.

[LivingProof]

I think there is still plenty of need to pressure the front of the boot as that is how one creates pressure on the tips which is necessary for good skiing (at least with good PMTS skiing). If what you are saying is that you don't want a boot that flexes a ton when you get forward on the cuff, I agree with that.

JB,

Just to continue the discussion a bit, I read HH's first quote in the link Max supplied, and, he states he does not try to flex boots. In my old days of skiing, it was common to push very hard against the front of the boot. Akin to a "primary" movement...drive those knees to pressure ski tips. We know better today.

I create a fair amount of pressure on my boots, but, it's caused by other movements, including the hips, than by driving my knees forward. If we use the "cause / effect" concept, boot pressure is an effect. I think this is in line with PMTS dogma.

Stiff boots helps a very good skier manage all the forces placed on a boot. Perhaps you feel the pressure created by your turns via your boots, and, that's an indicator of performance.

I will stand by what I wrote for a newer skier thinking about the stiffness of a new boot. They need to keep it simple and understand some basic concepts at the onset. Their individual journey will take them where ever it leads. I can't predict will Byron will go and if he's happy in a more comfortable, less stiff boot, I say fine. go enjoy, but, don't forget that equipment without technique is very limiting.

[smackboy1]

I do have a novice question about boot term oft used. "cuff" generally refers to the top portion of boot (top buckle/power strap) area yes? There was some reference to allowing this to be "bit" looser as opposed straight jacket tight.

Yes, the "cuff" is the tube of plastic that extends up the shin. On a 4 buckle overlap style ski boot there are 2 buckles on the cuff and often a powerstrap.

I am in the "stiffer is better camp". If I need the boot flex to be a little more progressive and easier on my shins, I can always loosen up the cuff buckles and route the powerstrap underneath the plastic cuff and over the liner.

[jbotti]

If you wtach HH, Diana, Heluva, Max or me ski on Video (and it's the same for all the great Japanese skiers on video) when we are in the midst of the arc, the boot is behind the hip and the there is massive pressure on the front of the boot to the point that even with 150 flex boots the boot has been mashed.

Perhaps this is different from what people were taught and were doing with staright skis years ago but there remains huge confusion around this isuue by many skiers on the PMTS forum. You cannnot and will not ski well until the boots get behind the hips in every arc and until there is huge forward pressure on the boot which translates to the tips.

I spent an entire day with HH and Max working on this issue (several years ago) doing flappers the entire day while I was finding the correct fore aft balance point on the skis.

If you look at WC Racing, those that get back and remain back have no shot on tough courses in the technical events. All good skiing starts with proper fore aft balance and the proper fore aft balance is steady forward pressure on the front of the boot. (does it get released in transition during flexion? yes some but all good skiers suck back the skis in transition and start every arc from a well forward position)

If you aren't there, spend a full day attempting to get there and stay there. You will be blown away by what it does for your skiing!!

[byronm]

Thx...I will continue to watch, read, absorb and try to conciously apply technique on the hill. I am actually going to reduce, laminate and take some of the HH drills to the hill with me for ref...