Author Topic: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!  (Read 1308 times)

jbotti

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Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« on: October 24, 2011, 02:30:54 pm »
My chariots arrived today only several weeks later than originally expected and promised (which we all know is great for an Indie ski Co). After taking them out of the box and inspecting them I can say a few things. First these are better made and better finished skis than any Indie skis I have bought in the past. DPS and PM Gear both shipped me skis that looked like they were made and finished in a garage, and the overall quality of construction is way below what Ski Logik has just shipped me (which look much more like they come from a maor ski co factory). The base finish is excellent with a nice structure and the edges are excellent as well. The sidewalls are tightly built and finished beautifully. Second, these skis are softer in the tips than my Icelantic Shamans and for this reason I think they will ski a little nicer (easier and friendlier) in soft snow. Third, the running length is short on these after accounting for how much of the ski is off the snow due to the large twin tips. I roughly measured the running length at around 158cm and ths skis are 188cm. Lastly the tips at 150cm are large but they don't seem as large and clunky as the Icleantic Shamans which are 160mm at the tips.

In general I am quite pleased with what I see. It's a very nicely and well made ski and the art/graphic work is spectaular (which we all know from their website). So far it looks like exactly what I am looking for and I predict that these will become my go to ski for fresh snow in Montana. That 15m TR was one of the Key factors in buying these. Obviously only tetsing on snow will tell me what I really need to know, but so far so good.


jim-ratliff

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2011, 02:43:43 pm »

Jbotti:  As Jim Nabors would say, SERRRPRISE, SERRPRISE, SERRPRISE!!  ;D
CONGRATULATIONS -- You pulled the trigger WITHOUT DEMOING??!!
I thought demo, demo, demo was one of the mantra's?

I remember thinking the same thing about the tips and I think that (and the upturn) help make them smoother, but on firm snow they are torsionally stiff and the tips stay connected.

What topsheet artwork did you get?
FWIW, I played with moving the bindings around on the power rail and am pretty sure that I wound up back at the recommended factory line.  Be interesting to hear what you find?  Can't wait for your review (I think its been almost 12 months in the waiting stage?)!!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 08:51:01 pm by jim-ratliff »
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jbotti

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2011, 04:24:54 pm »
I got the standard graphics/artwork. It's beautiful!!

Gary

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2011, 08:04:20 pm »
Congrats JB...that's some beautiful artwork ya got there...look forward to hearing how they ski...

Best of luck..g

midwif

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 07:42:00 pm »
Have gotten to ski them yet?

If not, when is the anticipated first outing?
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jbotti

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 08:25:46 pm »
Unless we get some snow soon in Tahoe, the first time I will ski these will be over Christmas in Montana. I iwll give a full review once I get them on snow.

seskelson

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2011, 08:08:08 am »
John, good luck.  I bought a pair last year based on the reviews from Peter's website.  Unfortunately I kept them only 3 weeks and sold them. I thought they would be the perfect PMTS fat ski.  They were NOT my cup of tea.  Beautiful skis and well made.  Everyone I spoke to -- Peter Keelty, Ski Logic's chief ski guru at their headquaarters, their top ski rep in Colorado-- all said it was the tune up.  But I had them retuned.  Still no help.  I also had several of my patroller friends ski them.  Same feelings as mine.  The problem was in powder and crud - not on the groomed where you'd expect tune issues.   I also know they have worked on the tune for this year.  My friend is now the local rep in Utah and I'm gong to try his again when he is up here in Idaho this year.  Just to see if there was a difference in one pair.  Great company and I wish them every success.  It may simply be that I prefer a ski not so wide.  (my favorite is the Head M78 which I know you like.  This year I have a new Peak 84 Pro - ).  And in the interest of full disclosure-- I am the local mountain rep for our ski patrol for Head.  I also have two pairs of the Scott Missions ( a new one for this year).  I'm also the Scott rep.  That is a ski that Peter's group only gave luke warm reviews to.  But it has a short radius  and frankly over the last three years has been one of the most idiot proof forgiving and turny skis I have enjoyed.  GReat in powder and crud for me.

jbotti

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2011, 09:17:33 am »
Yes,  I would like to hear more specifics as well. If you read Dawgcathings review of the Chariot with RL (a rockered version of the ski new for this year) he says the ski is way too stiff and because of this it was really not fun to ski in any sort of chop or cut up snow. Is it possible that this may have been the issue or contributed to your issues?

I can say from flexing them in my garage that the ski is quite a bit less stiff than my Icelantic Shamans and also less stiff than my K2 Hardsides. Of course flex in the garage doesn't tell you how they will ski, but based upon flexing them they sure don't seem too stiff. I also bought the 188's and it could be that they are more stiff than the shorter 178's but that is just a guess. Did you own the 178's?

I will have them on snow in about two weeks so I will defeinitely post a review. Weather permitting I hope to have a review of the skis in pow as well, hopefully fairly soon.

jim-ratliff

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2011, 10:56:20 am »



Interesting.  FWIW they feel much stiffer and substantial to me on groomed surfaces than powder or crud surfaces.  I'm 5'11" and 185 and have (and really like) the 178.


Also, the RockerLogik version of the Ullr's Chariot didn't come out until this year -- and it was the Twin Tip version that has gotten all the rave reviews.
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Gary

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2011, 12:20:42 pm »
Seskelson,

I'm curious to your weight too but more interested to hear what it was about "the tune" you did not like...

What were those "Misbeahaven Chariots" doing to ya?

Using PMTS skills on big boards while indeed possible, the width of the board up on edge angle can really be a handful. For me as the boards get wider and the conditions are deeper, I utlize more of the base of the ski instead of long visits on high edge angles, the fat skis became more playful and co-operative. More or less, soft edges.

My experience with a variety of wider boards found that some when brought up on edge had what I'd call "Turbo Tug"....I had a hard time keeping the edged ski under my hips....that ski just wanted to shoot out from under me and pull away.

I'm thinking too if it was a ski that was "A.D.D SKI" ...the skis seemed to have a mind of their own and changed their mind all the time....I'm wondering if binding placement, ball of foot and all that were not placed correctly for you. For me my bad experiences were because the bindings were mounted  to far back on a ski making it difficult to engage the shovels.

I know I'm shooting blindly here but would be interested in what you actually experienced.

Thanks, G
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 12:25:27 pm by Gary »

Liam

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2011, 12:43:07 pm »
Seskelson,

I'm curious to your weight too but more interested to hear what it was about "the tune" you did not like...

What were those "Misbeahaven Chariots" doing to ya?

Using PMTS skills on big boards while indeed possible, the width of the board up on edge angle can really be a handful. For me as the boards get wider and the conditions are deeper, I utlize more of the base of the ski instead of long visits on high edge angles, the fat skis became more playful and co-operative. More or less, soft edges.

My experience with a variety of wider boards found that some when brought up on edge had what I'd call "Turbo Tug"....I had a hard time keeping the edged ski under my hips....that ski just wanted to shoot out from under me and pull away.

I'm thinking too if it was a ski that was "A.D.D SKI" ...the skis seemed to have a mind of their own and changed their mind all the time....I'm wondering if binding placement, ball of foot and all that were not placed correctly for you. For me my bad experiences were because the bindings were mounted  to far back on a ski making it difficult to engage the shovels.

I know I'm shooting blindly here but would be interested in what you actually experienced.

Thanks, G

This is my experience exactly with fatter skis...except one, the Shaman, which handles higher than normal edges with grace and aplomb (in fact, it demands them).  But with my Nomad SFt's, I found they really came to life with softer more drifted approach...actually, Gary, I found the techniques spelled out in a good short book by another renegade Black level PMTS instructor whom I believe you are very familiar with to be the gold ticket to skiing fatter skis in soft snow and tight spaces.

That guy's stuff is the most under-appreciated technical thoughts on ski use in the business.

More to the topic at hand, I've wondered about the real utility of a 100mm waisted carving ski.  I am presently the Ski Logik pro-rep at my own hill, but if I get one of their skis I think it'd be the Rave...15m turn radius in a 90mm ski just seems to make more sense to me.   I just tried to talk a fellow patroller (unsuccessfully) out of the Chariot RL's and toward's the TT's based, in no small part, on Dawg's review's.

I do have a few cranky old school hesitation and think of 100mm as a Fat ski (c'mon, guys, even in my short skiing life, it wasn't so long ago that the Salomon Pocket Rocket and the Volant Chubb defined fat powder skis at a whopping 90mm.)

I am interested to read JBotti's assessment of the Chariots---John, did you like your Shaman's (you went pretty crazy long in them, I know Ben Anderson never envisioned that ski ever being that long and still sings the praises of the 161cm..there is 24 year old son (and ex college racer) of a fellow patroller using the 161cm as his full time ski and it is impressive what he can do with them.  I've only skied the 173cm-in fairly deep powder, and I thought they were great.

I am a pretty big icelantic fan, actually...I'd really love to get some time on the gypsy (and see what a real monster ski is all about).

Gary

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2011, 01:37:57 pm »
Hey Liam....my all time favorite Icelantic ski was the Pilgrim...very versatile ski for me...loved it...actually, I gave it to a relative of mind who also loves it. It was my boot high and above ski for 2 seasons 2 seasons ago.

I've only made one run on a pair of  Shamans ...not enought to garner a review but it did come up on edge nice but I remember looking down at those "mighty" shovels and man they looked monstrous...but never got in the way.

I hear you on that "other" guy....and would agree....

I was this close to buying the Chariot last year when I decided on the Rossi S3. I had a few chances to flex the Chariot's shovel and tail and for what my intended use for them....I just felt at my body weight and skiing style, it felt too beefy. Since our local shop now carries them, I'll be able to demo a pair I hope at our local mountain.

I agree Liam...100 underfoot I think is a bit much for the everyday ski ...but I say that considering my skiing style.  Heck, I thought the same thing about the thought of going from Head SS, Fischer RX8, Fischer P8's  to 78 underfoot in my Kastle MX78's but boy was I pleasanty surprised.
Nope...I'm kinda the guy that says give me something that likes a 16m radius or less, easy to bring up on edge and hold there, and doesn't kick the banana's out of me by end of day.

Still thinking I'll always be that 2 ski quivver guy.....for now, seems to work best for me. g

jim-ratliff

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2011, 04:06:01 pm »

Hey guys.  This is an open forum --  it's entirely OK to mention the "other Black Certified Instructor" by name. Never can tell when that might be info someone is looking for.  ;D

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bushwacka

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2011, 04:15:59 pm »
I personally hated the Shaman and really do not like the keeper. Both have far to much camber and sidecut IMO and it really limited the speed I could ski where I ski on. The shaman I felt was way to locked on for what I wanted to to do.

The Nomad SFT on the other hand is an amazingly wonderful ski IMO it maybe the best non rockered EC tree ski out there. If you go faster you can bend a longer radius into a tighter radius anyways, and if your going slower in 3d environments its hard to take real advantage of the sidecut anyways. IMO most tight sidecut fat skis sidecut only really helps them on hard groomers at which point you have to ask what is the point anyways.

I would love to try the Ski logic skis though just never had a chance to demo.

seskelson

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2011, 04:31:15 pm »
Well a few folks have asked about how the ski felt.  Max501 and I have previously exchanged a couple of messages on this on the PMTS forum.  On the groomed I was acutally pleasantly startled and liked it.  My thought was for such a fat ski it was quite turny (and I expected that due to is short turn radius) and it had a lot of edge hold.  Initially, it was a little too sharp, but that was esily correcgte and that can largely be a matter of personal taste.  In pure powder also liked it.  Nice wide ski, nice and turny.   It was when the powder began to get chopped up - and in today's world that is pretty quick,  or turned heavier - let's cal lthat crud--that my opinion changed.  It was just beating me to death.  If it hit a clump  or a rut it wanted to change direction RIGHT NOW.  I felt as if I was constantly struggling to have it go where I wanted it to.  I was bounced all over.   It flat wore me out.  And no, I wasn't trying to muscle it.  And it was for the deep stuff and crud that I wanted the ski.  A fat ski capable of applying PMTS principles. 

seskelson

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 04:38:58 pm »
Sorry didn't get to finish the last post.  I really wonder about a couple of things.  One, I don't really mind being down in the powder, perhaps 90 mm in the waist ona ski is about tops for where I want to be, no matter how deep.  And two, the wide ones make my knees hurt and tire me out.  Also, for your info.  I am quite knock kneed.  I am aligned -- utilizing HSS system footbeds and one of Harald's friends and consultants in Salt Lake.  About a 4 degree cant on the right side.  Huge improvement and a real game changer.  Other info some folks inquried about:  age 58, height 5. 10" weight about 188.  Ski patroller.  My ski was the 175 or whatever is close to that in their line, sorry I' ve forgotten as I sit here typing.  Again, I think it is an excellent company and wish them much success.   Another patroller in Salt Lake bought it.  Well, best I can do for now to provide input.  Current arsenal:  Head M78, new Peak 84 Pro, Head Icon tt80  and two Scott Missions (one brand new for this year, the other two years old).

jbotti

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2011, 06:50:30 pm »
Yeah that's consistent with what Dawg was saying. If I find them to be the same I will probably sell them as well. I don't think it's the turn radius because I ski the Shaman in the 184 with an 18m TR and Max skis the 172 iwth a 15m TR and that ski does fine in crud. It is actually a bit stiffer than both of us want but not to the degree that we would say it beats us up. It is also wider than we both want and if I ski it multiple days in a row I definitely feel it in my knees some. It has to be the stiffness or the torsional rigidity.

I will again say that the ski does not hand flex like a ski that will be too stiff and having said that it is generally skis that are too soft that are problematic in crud. The Shaman 184's are tanks and they eat crud as they just bulldoze through it.

Clearly I will have to ski them and see what they are like. The last thing I need or want is a 101mm waisted carving ski. If it sucks in pow, chop and crud, it's not going to have many uses for me, because I am not going to take it out on a groomer day and destroy my knees arcing tight carved turns on it on hard snow (there are just too many other skis to do that on that will always be much more fun and a lot easier on the body!).

Liam

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2011, 05:42:22 am »
Sorry didn't get to finish the last post.  I really wonder about a couple of things.  One, I don't really mind being down in the powder, perhaps 90 mm in the waist ona ski is about tops for where I want to be, no matter how deep.  And two, the wide ones make my knees hurt and tire me out.  Also, for your info.  I am quite knock kneed.  I am aligned -- utilizing HSS system footbeds and one of Harald's friends and consultants in Salt Lake.  About a 4 degree cant on the right side.  Huge improvement and a real game changer.  Other info some folks inquried about:  age 58, height 5. 10" weight about 188.  Ski patroller.  My ski was the 175 or whatever is close to that in their line, sorry I' ve forgotten as I sit here typing.  Again, I think it is an excellent company and wish them much success.   Another patroller in Salt Lake bought it.  Well, best I can do for now to provide input.  Current arsenal:  Head M78, new Peak 84 Pro, Head Icon tt80  and two Scott Missions (one brand new for this year, the other two years old).

I hear good things about the Scott Mission--one of our local dealers loves them and I've been meaning to check them out.

Where do you Patrol?   Which of your skis get's the most use when you're working?  Over the years, I have found that for Sled and rescue work in heavy/ deep snow in bumps or in trees slightly softer, wider, twin tips (or at least skis with soft, easy releasing tails) are the golden ticket.

One thing I've always liked about Head's wider skis, is that they have always had fairly easy releasing (and very mildly twinned) tails--this was true with my old Head Monster 88's straight on up.   I ski the Dynastar 4x4 as my 70% ski, but it is a terrible patrolling ski (it is a great technical ski and east coast crud ski however).   

If I could find a ski that gave the user-friendly patrol ski feel of my icelantics, but had the technical skiing chops of my dynastars, I'd buy it on the spot...on paper, the Ullr's Chariot seems to fit that bill (though reviews other than Peter's make me hesistant so far). 

Thinking about maybe the 2012 Dynastar Legend 94's....

HighAngles

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2011, 01:19:30 pm »
Most of the comments on the original TT version of the Chariot ring true with my assessment.  It was surprisingly poor at handling crud and chop.  It has a heavier feel on snow, but it doesn't translate into greater stability.  That's surprising because on paper you would think that this ski should be better (due to the construction layup).

I've skied the TT version of the Chariot 3 different times under very different conditions - each time hoping for a better experience because I just love their graphics and what the company is trying to achieve.  I had a nice long convo with Dave Mazz at SIA last January and the guy clearly has a specific direction he's trying to take all of his models in.  I think he just needs to assemble a better group of testers to give him more accurate feedback.  Some of his new narrower designs are getting much better (Occam's Razor and Front Burner) while I still wasn't liking the TT Rave after a few times out on that one. 

I haven't yet skied any of the newer RL versions of his models.  Surprisingly they weren't out for the early season demos in CO.  The Rockstar looks like something I would enjoy on a deep day.  The DPS 112RP is the ski that convinced me that a wide "mustache" camber ski design can really work well if executed properly.

JBotti - given your appreciation for the Shaman, the Chariot may work out well for you.  You're significantly bigger than me and that will certainly alter what you get out of those skis.

For those looking for skis in the same realm without early rise or rocker look at Movement, Scott, and ZAG for models with tighter turn radii that can get the job done in deeper snow.

jbotti

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2011, 02:09:39 pm »

JBotti - given your appreciation for the Shaman, the Chariot may work out well for you.  You're significantly bigger than me and that will certainly alter what you get out of those skis.


Let's hope so!!

seskelson

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2011, 07:31:40 am »
Well, Liam asked for a bit more information about where I patrol and what I like.

Liam, I am at a small area outside Idhao Falls called Kelly Canyon.  About 1000 veritcal, but only 25 minutes from home.  But for the last 18 years I have also been an examiner for those patrollers taking their senior ski and toboggan test so I travel around quite a bit.  Beaver Mtn. near Logan, Utah where I grew up and  Alta and Targhee are favorites. 
The ski I use the most:  well, when I don't know what to expect or can only take one pair the M78 is it.  Although beginning last year I am really starting to like the Mission more al lthe time.  It has become my "fat" ski.  It is not "bouncy" or quick side to side as some skis might be - farily damp.  But when you tip it on edge it is very turney and for me really carves around.  And it is extremely forgiving.  It's what I call me hero ski - makes me look like a hero-- if that is even possible.   Works very well with a toboggan.
The Icon TT80, well-- just fun  and truly has helped my skiing.  It is all the things Harald Harb says about it.  Fellow patrollers notice the improvement in my turns last year with it.  If the snow is groomed or hard I use it all the time - and even into about 8 inches of powder.  And I just love standing their next to someone I just watched come down the hill skidding their big fatties sideways and then looking at my "little" Icons.  I'm kind of "counterculture". 

HighAngles

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 01:57:18 am »
The Scott Mission is a great underrated ski.  I think the Crusade is even better, but definitely more demanding where the Mission is more playful.

I like your term "counterculture" for those sporting skinny shaped skis - it really is getting to the point where, except for the racers, very few skiers are on anything less than about 85mm underfoot.  It's just such a huge disservice to so many skiers who basically can't buy a turn and now they have these huge skis that help them get through tougher snow conditions, but they're even farther from ever feeling the power and control from true high edge angle turns.

seskelson

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2011, 08:53:23 am »
High Angles.  i agree the Mission is vastly underrated.  I had the Crusade last year.  Your asessment is spot on.  I liked it, just liked the Mission better and hence, a new Mission for this year to go with my two year old one.  The new one supposedly has a slightly lighter core.  We'll see.

bushwacka

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2011, 09:16:58 am »
The Scott Mission is a great underrated ski.  I think the Crusade is even better, but definitely more demanding where the Mission is more playful.

I like your term "counterculture" for those sporting skinny shaped skis - it really is getting to the point where, except for the racers, very few skiers are on anything less than about 85mm underfoot.  It's just such a huge disservice to so many skiers who basically can't buy a turn and now they have these huge skis that help them get through tougher snow conditions, but they're even farther from ever feeling the power and control from true high edge angle turns.


Alot of people are out their posing with their new mid fats or fatter skis that is for sure, but a small minority are pushing personal limits on wider boards at mountains that have natural terrain and natural conditions. Stuff that was unpossible on the first carving skis and not that easy on the early 'fat" skis like the explosive, axiom and pocket rocket.  Especially in the east where the snow in more vaiable and the terrain is MUCH tighter. My average run at stowe is more technically demanding than my average run at snowbird. i have skied more at each of these resorts than anyone on this board.

LivingProof

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2011, 10:16:33 am »

Alot of people are out their posing with their new mid fats or fatter skis that is for sure, but a small minority are pushing personal limits on wider boards at mountains that have natural terrain and natural conditions. Stuff that was unpossible on the first carving skis and not that easy on the early 'fat" skis like the explosive, axiom and pocket rocket.  Especially in the east where the snow in more vaiable and the terrain is MUCH tighter. My average run at stowe is more technically demanding than my average run at snowbird. i have skied more at each of these resorts than anyone on this board.

Bushwacker,
Reading the above, I thought of a recent post by Helluva where he offered some comments about 'all mountain" skis. His thinking was that if a specific skier selects a specfic ski to ski specific terrain, then, it's akin to the saying about "using the right tool for the right job". You have also posted that at the 'bird you choose different skis, understandable. Just guessing, but, I would assume your Stowe ski can change depending on the conditions that day.

There is no doubt, in my mind, that skis you select to ski Stowe backcounty provide the best possible tool for those conditions. If I ever get to join in, I'd like very much to use a ski that you recommend (after figuring it out a little bit on easier terrain). The question remains about my skills being able to marry up to that ski in that terrain. We all know I'd struggle, but, given enough repetitions, I hope I'd figure it out.


bushwacka

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2011, 11:15:03 am »
How you define technical?

by skill,thought, nerve and amount of effort. Your know more technical. A run though 3000 vertical of eastern trees is going to much harder from all of those stand points than your average run at Snowbird.

@ LP My snowbird skis tend to be longer straight and have more camber than my stowe off piste skis which tend to me short more sidecut and more rocker.

jim-ratliff

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Re: Arrival: Ski Logik Chariots!!
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2011, 09:09:16 pm »
I think 50 foot drops probably qualifies in the nerve category and the terrain category.
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