Author Topic: Section 8 Ski school?  (Read 1547 times)

bushwacka

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2011, 06:32:53 am »
Not surprised that you like his skiing BW. His bump skiing is totally pivot based, which is something I think you continue to say you strive for in your skiing.

His carving is park and ride because he is not getting any tip pressure and his balance point is aft. It has nothing to do with the TR of the skis. He has no ability to bend the ski to tighten the arc (or at least he is not showing it in the video).

1. did not even watch the bumps video, only steeps, glades and carving.

2. I do not strive for pivoting, but I am going to do what is most appropriate for the situation.  In that steeps videos it solid skiing. Yes he is pivoting into alot of turn. He could probably go faster and ski it arc arc to but you have no idea what his intent was or how steep those slopes really are. 

SO again so it does not come up, I do not strive for pivoting but I think saying your never going to pivot is going to limit where you ski. This is why PMTS is a flawed teaching system and I have yet to meet someone who is PMTS learner who can keep up with me for one run let alone the whole day. Let alone make it down smoothly as its not just about getting the bottom first.  BTW it does not count when I go out west there is nothing at any western resort that would or should make you break from your "mold" at stowe though good luck never pivoting or using rotary.


Jim

Foot Squirt is the ability to let your feet beat your COM to the fall line and then catching them. He could use alot more work at it as sometimes he fails to get to his tips.

 MA people who did not want to be MAed is freaking lame, and MAing someone without knowing his intent is nearly impossible. If I went out and spun 360s on hill while making rotary based turns starting from the upper body there is no way you could MA it with out knowing the intent.

I know I ride a high horse but someone has got to ride it!


LivingProof

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2011, 07:12:58 am »
As far as judging his skiing-hey, you've been working hard on good skiing (lessons, camps, practice, skiing, etc) for some years, I'd gather--you're probably as good as anyone to know what looks good.  After all, you don't have to be Wolfgang Puck to appreciate a good meal ;D

Pardon an anecdotal story. Years ago, I was on a ski vacation with a trained chef who cooked each night. Throughout his cooking, he would invite us to taste, and, then ask "what does it need to get better". Then, he would explain the aspects of "tasting" skills, add whatever and on retaste, it was much better. So, Liam, I can appreciate great food, I just can't ,make it! :o

So, in doing MA about skiing, it should be about finding movements that make us better. It been said of HH that he is a "demonstration" skier in that he's defined an effective technique and specific language, then, goes out and skis it on every turn. That's not a flawed teaching process, it's talking the talk...walking the talk. PMTS may not fit all types of skiing in all situations, but, it does put up a standard, complete system. I don't know jack about CSIA level 4 skiing.

In my head, I try to take all the points made about his skiing, subtract the negative, and then try to figure out if they apply. An aspect that I totally agree with BW about is that no one knows the specific intent of what the skier was trying to do. My guess here is that he is trying to do some solid, visually attractive skiing to entice people to come to his camps and improve to his levels. "This ain't no Steep and Deep" skiing! Like Liam, I find this good, real world, expert skiing on an in-bounds mountain. I'd love to ski with (or way behind) this guy.

It's interesting that there is a little consenus that he could by more on edge and carving before the fall line, and, BW pick-up on some counter acting.

@ Bush, have you ever skied with Helluvaskier? I know that your values for where and how you ski are much different, but he's one PMTS skier I'd put out there who rocks down a hill!

jim-ratliff

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2011, 07:16:54 am »
MA'ing people who did not want to be MAed is freaking lame, and MAing someone without knowing his intent is nearly impossible.

I know I ride a high horse but someone has got to ride it!
The underlined part makes sense, but his intent is clearly to impress people with his skiing so that they will attend his camp.   By posting the advertising video, he is (in a sense) inviting MA.

I'm OK with your commitment and dedication to your skiing style, Max and JBotti have a similar commitment and dedication to their way of skiing. 

(One of the most impressive things I've ever read was in the middle of the "dot-com" bubble era, when Warren Buffett sent a letter admitting that times may have passed him by, and maybe he was getting old, but that he had to stay true to who he was and what he understood.  He pretty much pulled out of the stock market for a while -- and he was right, the bubble burst.  But I really admired someone who could publicly say "this is who I am and I'm comfortable with that".  Especially for someone getting older, that took a lot of guts.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 09:19:21 am by jim-ratliff »
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jim-ratliff

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2011, 07:26:28 am »
1/2/11 at 4:23am
Quote from: BushwackainPA
Sadly I didn't get to ski with BB while he was here.

but I just wanted to add this move (foot squirt) has been something I have been doing with no real name since just after I passed my L3.
 
the ability to beat your feet to the fall line is huge in dynamic off trail skiing even if it means being slightly aft during the float phrase. A dolphin turn is great example of a very dynamic squirt turn. Basically it takes the squirt concept and adds the virtual bumps. Its a really helpful move to practice for bump skiing but makes recovering when squirt goes wrong much easier as well.

I've heard of dolphin turns.  maybe we need to develop a ski term glossary.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 07:32:10 am by jim-ratliff »
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jbotti

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2011, 03:43:04 pm »
Quote from BW:

"BTW it does not count when I go out west there is nothing at any western resort that would or should make you break from your "mold" at stowe though good luck never pivoting or using rotary."

Funny I was just reading an article where some of the biggest exterme skiing pros were talking about how they regularly head to Vermont and Stowe for the most difficult, most exterme terrain and that they would never go to my home mountain (big Sky) or other name places in the rockies for that because there just isn't anything challenging.  ;D

Gotta love the bravado even if some of the comments border on delusional!!



bushwacka

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2011, 07:33:33 pm »
Quote from BW:

"BTW it does not count when I go out west there is nothing at any western resort that would or should make you break from your "mold" at stowe though good luck never pivoting or using rotary."

Funny I was just reading an article where some of the biggest exterme skiing pros were talking about how they regularly head to Vermont and Stowe for the most difficult, most exterme terrain and that they would never go to my home mountain (big Sky) or other name places in the rockies for that because there just isn't anything challenging.  ;D

Gotta love the bravado even if some of the comments border on delusional!!

stowe is not extreme (well for the most part) but I have skied with west coast pros here and they can not handle what we do. Simply put the skill sets we carry is pretty different from most parts of the county. again I I almost sure I never said stowe was extreme just that skiing at stowe will make people use rotary turns.

 Come to stowe, I would love to let skiing do the talking. I would pay your way only catch is you have to shut up after I am right that stowe is tougher to ski than anywhere outwest. SERIOUSLY I WOULD PAY YOUR ENTIRE WAY OUT HERE. I am that confident you would be owned at stowe. I hate argueing on the internet, the only thing I hate worse is being put down by people who do not know me. So I ll make every effort to make things straight in real life. to put in perspective just how lame your being, not a single person who has ever met or skied with me would ever say such baseless claims against me because A. I am a really stand up guy(who has not drawn first flood in this post at all) and will go out of way to accommodate nearly anyone. B. I actually am really good at what I say I am good at they are only half dozen skiers at stowe who can legitimately keep up with me tree skiing.

I have skied with helvaskier once at holiday valley, Ny. He would not ski trees with me and in the bumps I am a much smoother skier(his words)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 10:00:42 pm by midwif »

jbotti

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2011, 09:33:08 pm »
BW, obviously you have a lot more to prove than I do. You also might want to get a sense of humor!

bushwacka

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2011, 06:13:39 am »
BW, obviously you have a lot more to prove than I do. You also might want to get a sense of humor!

midwif sorry but jbotti has put words in my mouth I never said in more than one instance. I do not find it funny at all.

I never will and never have put words in people's mouth.

Liam

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2011, 07:10:34 am »
OK...this thread took an unexpected, and somewhat unpleasant, turn.

Any hope that we can avoid the classic call outs that pervade these types of forums?  The 'oh yeah, where's your video' and the 'come ski with me an I'll humiliate you and your whole teaching system' type taunts have wrecked so many other outlets of ski cyberdom.  I like posting here because it's a small community--many of the folks here have skied together (not me, but I'd like to change that).

I'll put my cards on the table--I'm a half-way covenant PMTSer...I was was all in up to Expert Skier 2, but never quite got on board with the new 'Essential of Skiing' direction.  And, what is more, I'm 'half-way' because I, too, like to ski the sort of terrain here in the Northeast that Bushwacka refers too (constantly).

I like that Josh pops in once in awhile to put up a perspective that counters the sometime over-dominant PMTS approach-I like that JB and Max are consistent, focused and knowledgeable about skiing, equipment, etc.

I know Jbotti-Max are good skiers, I know Bush is a good skier, but you know what, I bet you EVERYONE who posts here is a better than average skier at worst.  So c'mon guys, argue with passion but not venom (I know I am hereby resolved to be the height of civility-it's a small pond over here, no need to splash the other swimmers!).

In truth, I posted up the Section 8 stuff because I think it sits somewhere between the Bushwacka and the PMTS model of expert skiing and reflects a model the rest of us can pursue.  I really am impressed with the direction of skiing I've seen from recent level 4 CSIA videos (I'm going to start another thread in a few minutes)-I'm wondering who has had lessons or camps or experience with this level of CSIA instructor (or Tobin from Section 8).  What is the base line learning plan?  Do they have a process that yields a JF Beaulieu-or, is their methodology somewhat divorced from what they purport is their end product.

Getting back on track!

Liam
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 07:14:37 am by Liam »

midwif

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2011, 07:36:45 am »
OK...this thread took an unexpected, and somewhat unpleasant, turn.

Any hope that we can avoid the classic call outs that pervade these types of forums?  The 'oh yeah, where's your video' and the 'come ski with me an I'll humiliate you and your whole teaching system' type taunts have wrecked so many other outlets of ski cyberdom.  I like posting here because it's a small community--many of the folks here have skied together (not me, but I'd like to change that).

Getting back on track!

Liam

Well put Liam.
The general guidelines behind moderating on this forum are based on civility toward each other.
Argue the finer points of a turn to death, the exact characteristics of a new model ski until its a limp noodle, the
best ski paradigm until all cringe.......but don't make personal attacks please.

Differing points of view enlighten, entertain and help keep the world round.

Personal smackdowns, constant self-aggrandizing statements add nothing to the conversation.

Lynn

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midwif

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2011, 02:14:52 pm »
With regards to looking at video of other skiers.

MA = Movement Analysis

It is literally the analysis of movements being made. The best coaches I know for a variety of sports MA the top athletes to see what they are doing. Intent doesn't come into play unless you move from MA to providing feedback.

I agree with that perspective. And Jim's,  where he points out that if you post video of your skiing in order to demonstrate "how to" and publicize your "product", then others analyzing your skills should be expected.

Now, whether one agrees with the MA done, is where differing paradigms come into conflict.

The Section 8 guy looked smooth, but even I could see his backseat position in some of the video. I know I am almost never in control when I feel that happening to me.
To be fair, the snippets of video were so short, it was hard for me to really get a clean look at his turns.








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bushwacka

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2011, 05:48:08 pm »
OK...this thread took an unexpected, and somewhat unpleasant, turn.

Any hope that we can avoid the classic call outs that pervade these types of forums?  The 'oh yeah, where's your video' and the 'come ski with me an I'll humiliate you and your whole teaching system' type taunts have wrecked so many other outlets of ski cyberdom.  I like posting here because it's a small community--many of the folks here have skied together (not me, but I'd like to change that).

I'll put my cards on the table--I'm a half-way covenant PMTSer...I was was all in up to Expert Skier 2, but never quite got on board with the new 'Essential of Skiing' direction.  And, what is more, I'm 'half-way' because I, too, like to ski the sort of terrain here in the Northeast that Bushwacka refers too (constantly).

I like that Josh pops in once in awhile to put up a perspective that counters the sometime over-dominant PMTS approach-I like that JB and Max are consistent, focused and knowledgeable about skiing, equipment, etc.

I know Jbotti-Max are good skiers, I know Bush is a good skier, but you know what, I bet you EVERYONE who posts here is a better than average skier at worst.  So c'mon guys, argue with passion but not venom (I know I am hereby resolved to be the height of civility-it's a small pond over here, no need to splash the other swimmers!).

In truth, I posted up the Section 8 stuff because I think it sits somewhere between the Bushwacka and the PMTS model of expert skiing and reflects a model the rest of us can pursue.  I really am impressed with the direction of skiing I've seen from recent level 4 CSIA videos (I'm going to start another thread in a few minutes)-I'm wondering who has had lessons or camps or experience with this level of CSIA instructor (or Tobin from Section 8).  What is the base line learning plan?  Do they have a process that yields a JF Beaulieu-or, is their methodology somewhat divorced from what they purport is their end product.

Getting back on track!

Liam

If your notice I have been pretty good about not flaming people here, mostly because most everyone discusses stuff in a pretty sane way. I truly do hate it when people put words in my mouth though and if it continues to happen I 'll leave if thats what people want I basically told them how to make me gone, its simply not worth it to me put up with personal attacks and not be able to say how I REALLY feel back.

If you think my criticism is limited to PMTS youd be really wrong as well, I will always the first to speak against the PSIA for stuff I feel is wrong. I have done so in exams and will never agree with someone untill I am convinced otherwise.

Liam

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2011, 11:47:36 am »
With regards to looking at video of other skiers.

MA = Movement Analysis

It is literally the analysis of movements being made. The best coaches I know for a variety of sports MA the top athletes to see what they are doing. Intent doesn't come into play unless you move from MA to providing feedback.

I agree with that perspective. And Jim's,  where he points out that if you post video of your skiing in order to demonstrate "how to" and publicize your "product", then others analyzing your skills should be expected.

Now, whether one agrees with the MA done, is where differing paradigms come into conflict.

The Section 8 guy looked smooth, but even I could see his backseat position in some of the video. I know I am almost never in control when I feel that happening to me.
To be fair, the snippets of video were so short, it was hard for me to really get a clean look at his turns.


There are times when he is aft on his skis, but it is not the same as 'getting in the back seat'...in fact, in the bump video he states that he intentionally pushes his feet in front of him for part of the turn.  'Backseat', to me, refers to when the skier has lost some control of his skis and cannot catch up with them due to a diminishing level of balance.  The canadians (section 8 and other videos I've seen)  seem to favor pretty dramatic fore-aft adjustments through turns in off-piste/ bump terrain.  As you note, he remains smooth, and I'd say he has no trouble skiing a tight, fairly dynamic line in steep and bumpy terrain and is generally 'aft' and has little trouble reining in his skis through the belly of a turn.  '  'Bushwacka would say he needs to open it up even more for us to really know what his technique is about, and maybe he's right---but I'm impressed with the level, speed, and line chooice his displays in these videos.

More Pointedly, 'Being Backseat' means you are out of balance (and hence less control), being aft is a conscious move and implies being balanced over a different part of the ski (and it's a position that usually describes a phase of one turns and not a whole approach to skiing--certainly not in these videos).

Eric Deslaurier, in his Ski the whole mountain book, has a couple of great photos where he points out the a skier may look aft but relative to the pitch of the slope and depth of snow, is actually more centered than the casual eye can detect.

There was actually a debate recently over on Epic comparing the SVMM mogul guys vs. some CSIA level 4 guys in moguls-the SVMM pointed out that they felt the Cannucks where all to aft and back seat during too much of their turns in moguls, the CSIA guys argue that progressive adjustments to fore aft balance (where Aft is as ok as Fore depending on intention) enabled them to ski a more dynamic line.  And that the 'forward at all costs' was limiting in bumps and off piste terrain.


Gary

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2011, 02:12:42 pm »
Really guys..I mean Really...

whatever technique the guy is using...many could aspire to ski as well and with such control.

Heck...Don't know how fast the rest of you ski but I thought he was moving pretty darn fast.

Besides..what the heck is the hurry? Gesh and what's all the insanity about the east being tougher than the west? Crap....is what I say.

Is it really necessary to dress down this guys skiing ability...go do that on the PMTS site. If ya like what he's doing...try and emulate it if you don't, fagetaboutit! The guy is as smooth as a Swiss watch. Take it for what it is...he obviously is making a living doing what he loves to do...still working I'm guessing so he's probably a half way decent instructor.  I always figured RS was more about perspective...hmmm. ..I"m beginning to wonder.

G

midwif

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Re: Section 8 Ski school?
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2011, 03:59:34 pm »
Gary

I thought the implied  intention in posting Section 8 clip WAS to do some MA. ???
Liam seemed interest in feedback?


And I did read some of the Epic conversation before Liam posted it here. It devolved so quickly over
there to an incomprehensible mess, IMO, that picking out the worthy stuff is near impossible.

I think everyone found his skiing smooth. But I still continue to learn by breaking down movements
into their components.
I'm just sorry he was moving so fast that I couldn't really pull apart the turns. I need slo-mo! :D




« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 04:02:15 pm by midwif »
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