Author Topic: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews  (Read 4582 times)

jim-ratliff

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2011, 03:18:27 pm »
Todd:

You always surprise me with your knowledge of random information.  Which do you think Harb Ski Systems sells more of, upgraded boot liners or pairs of skis?  The liners (and footbeds and alignment) are really closer to their core business than skis??


I used to spend far too much time trying to find that perfect ski that would let me ski anything with ease. I finally figured out that it was me rather than the ski.
Max:
Say it ain't so!!  Are you telling me I can't just buy a good turn and that I need to actually invest in me instead of skis?  That's a somewhat daunting preposition.  :-)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 03:24:23 pm by jim-ratliff »
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Gary

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2011, 12:26:07 pm »
It may  be just me but I've found over the last 3 years or so that ski boots have become more "feet" friendly. What I mean is that the shells are more ergonomically designed. The choices of how much forefoot width you need, how soft, how much forward lean, canting, power straps...WIDE ONEs....have all helped skiers get the best off the shelf to date. Tweaks here and there are not common for "princess and the pea" feet like mine but it's way less than had to be done years ago for sure.

As for finding that perfect ski...yeah working on my ski skills is essential but I DO believe that you can buy a BETTER turn with the right ski so as to make skiing EASIER and more fun.

Now go help someones economy....buy buy buy!  :D  G

jbotti

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2011, 04:23:58 pm »
Have to agree with Max, the right equipment can be synergistic with the right movements (and the wrong equipment can make it much more difficult to do those same movements) but skis do not make movements, skiers do. Hence if you are working and practicing the right movements you have a good chance to duplicate this. But there is no shot that a different ski will take incorrect or poor movements and make them into good movements. Unfortuantely what a lot of skis are doing today are making poor movements hold up better in difficult conditions (as in rockered tails that allow one to pivot from the back seat with a weighted tail). So many skis will allow a skier to "ski better" or survive in difficlut conditions better with movement patterns that will not hold up with traditional skis. That does not mean that the movements are better.

Which leads us all to the grand question: If the ski makes my poor movements hold up better, why shouldn't I be skiing on it?

And the answer is very simple. It really depends on how good a skier one aspires to be. As I have stated before I have worked to hard to get solid fundamental ski technique to ski on a ski that will allow me and promote technique other than that. This doesn't mean that my decision is the right one for everyone.

Liam

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2011, 06:06:07 pm »
I think this is why I really like and support Peter Keelty's site.  Over the last 10 years (and longer going back to the inside tracks articles) he has really refined and broadened the levels at which every ski is evaluated.  Though no evaluation is perfect or a substitute for demo-ing, Peter's does help steer skier's with different tastes, goals and biases towards skis that fit those individual desires.

Harald's recommendation are great, sure they are all great skis, but focused (as is to be expected) on enhancing a very specific set of movements and turn choices.

 I think Peter's evaluation do the same thing-by that I mean, Max or Jbotti can look at Peter's reviews and find the skis that excel in the areas and at the skill levels they deem appropriate.  But, Peter's reviews also highlight ski traits that appeal to skiers who prize other facets and sensations as well.  And over the years he has added a number of different ways to tease out and rate those characteristics. Though it may be hard for some to believe, there are skiers, expert skiers even, who are chasing down different attributes and sensations than the Head Supershape (or any other deep side cut ski) can provide. 

Peter's approach has created an incredible resource that allows skiers as diverse as all the cats who plug into this forum to get a good sense of what's out there (new and many past season's skis as well) and what they ought to be demoing. 


LivingProof

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2011, 01:35:37 am »
I did look at the Harb Ski Shop website and they list 3 skis available.

i Supershape
i78 Peak
TT 800

Boot selection is much more varied, and, from a business standpoint, this would support the boot fitting portion of the business. Dodge, Head, Nordica and Dalbello lines are carried. Nordica is somewhat of surprise as that line is rarely mentioned in the PMTS forum, although I remember HH mentioning the Speedmachine as a "tipping machine". Small joke there as that's what I ski.

Again, from a business perspective, HH is very focused on technique and keeps the equipment aspect very simple. JB may have said it best in that ski sales is almost a service aspect as Head pure carvers are not always easy to find.

Gary

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2011, 08:08:15 am »
Guys, I'm probably spitting hairs here but you can take any skier at any level and make their experience on snow better with a ski with improved turning/float qualities over their present ski.

Todays skis make skiing so much easier. AND yes from the technical standpoint, solid funtamentals make skiing more precise but I've worked with so many people and discussed at great length as to what it is they want to get out of skiing.

90% of them...just want to have fun and feel in control. Having said that, todays new skis with early rise, variable edge tune, bindings that work with skis, sidecut, float and so on...do make the experience so much easier for "those"people.

Most on this site like myself are constanly looking to improve their ski skills...but in order to keep our industry alive and well for the rest of the snow loving people, providing products that respond well with that riders ski skills keeps them coming back and hopefully in better control and safer on the moutain.

G

Gary

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2011, 09:24:13 am »
Max..my point and only as an example is that float for many of us does make a difference for specific conditions. Having the choice to choose that specific ski to sastisfy our individual skill set, emotional and technical needs is what choice is all about.

AND we may both agree to disagree about whether new skis make turning easier  and less energy draining but from my exposure, I believe todays skis do indeed make todays snow experience safer and easier....otherwise, we'd still all be skiiing straight skis about 210mm long!  :o




Liam

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2011, 09:41:31 am »
What Gary says is dead-on the truth.  And by way of personal example, I'll submit my wife (and since she has never wasted a single moment of her day looking at a single 'forum' of any kind, I feel pretty safe in doing this  ;)).

My wife is an intermediate skier--We ski pretty much every weekend as a family (and I take the kids more often w/out her).  Now listen, she's had a few good lessons over the years..and I've even shared with her HH's stuff (the books, videos, tried to show her a few drills) as well as other stuff...but honestly, she works hard, spends time with the kids and friends and has absolutely no interest in lessons, drills, practice...nothing.  To her, skiing is family recreation and not work, why should she she make a 'job' out of getting better at it?  Well, in March last year, I got her a pair of Rossi s3 (a rockered, 98mm twin)...and she has never skied better. 

Now listen, she didn't pick up the turn mechanics Max and Jbotti are chasing down-nor is that important to her. But she skied with more balance, comfort and confidence than ever before--she even skied with me in the trees in heavy spring snow at Stowe, Sugarbush and Jay Peak (something she would have never done before)...and she skied pretty well.  She kept a nice pace, turned where she wanted-she didn't become Daron Ralves, but she did ski better-and by better I mean, more control, Balanced over the center of the ski (and not the tails as she usually did in challenging conditions) she was smoother, faster, less jerky and on the brakes...you know, better.

And most importantly, she really enjoyed the terrain and the skiing she did on these skis...more than anything previously.

I know, some will turn up their noses and  say 'Well, if she couldn't ski terrain/ condition X before on SL skis, then she has no  business skiing those conditions on the S3 just because they work well with her intermediate skills and make such skiing easier for her."  But I'd say, go screw, skiing is recreation, if there is a product that makes it more fun, have at it.  These new designs aren't for everybody...but they are for a lot of folks.

And, you know, sometimes I wonder if it's just sour grapes when people who worked hard acquiring skills to ski certain terrain and conditions on one type of ski grouse and complain when they find themselves sharing that very same terrain with a middle-aged lady on S3's.

jbotti

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2011, 10:01:49 am »
Everyone here knows I was on the rocker bandwagaon before many had even heard of it. I owned my first pair of reverse/reverse skis when only Indy co's were making and experimenting with rocker and it was a season or two before anyone had come out with rockers tips and tails with camber under foot (the new rage for all mountain skiing). I have tried a large number of rockered skis and I have owned several pairs. One thing is for sure, they promote and encourage poor technique. The skis pivot when you don't even want them to. This gives intermediate skiers an immediate sense of confidence because when they are back (which is close to all the time off piste) they can still make the ski turn which is far from the case for them on traditional skis. So what happens, you now have an intermediate skier that rides the tails now skiing steep off piste terrain that he has never skied before and at speeds that he has never been able to handle before. Yes, it's a game changer because this guy is skiing stuff he was literally unable to get down before and he now thinks that he is really becoming a skier. I'm not so sure that this isn't dangerous.

What I noticed when I was skiing the rockered skis (and I was only on them a few powder days a year) was that I was looking to pivot more and tip less annd my fore aft balance was gradually moving aft. It was a very easy decision to see and say this is not helping my skiing. If you wtach anyone on rockerd skis, 98% of the ones I see are all way back on the skis. Most don't know the difference. Most after a season on them can't ski anything else. This leads us to the paragraph on Peter's review of the Movement Trust where they had a bunch of freeride pros try the ski (which is early rise tip and a flat tail) and the response from the pros was that they could not turn the skis. Well of course not!! These guys all ski full rockered skis all the time and they ski them back. Try turning a flat tailed ski from the back seat, it will do nothing but continue to rail in the arc that it is in.

In my opinion, comments like these epitomize a very sad state of affairs in the ski industry. Skiing haa always had amatures that can't ski and nothiing will change that, but now skiing has become the first sport where pros are in the same camp. Sad!!

jim-ratliff

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2011, 10:45:51 am »
I remember a day last year watching a couple of guys sitting back on their fat skis and just straightlining down China Bowl. At least the guy in front was loving the ride. I was very glad I wasnt in front of them because I don't think there is any chance they could have avoided me. On the other hand, I think there are a lot of people like Liam's wife, where skis haven't bought her a turn, but they have bought her an increased sense of enjoyment and ability to ski more of the mountain with the family (maybe with even better control).

And then there was the guy on his bicycle riding fast between 2 lanes of traffic at the stop sign and then cutting in front of the car in the right lane to make a turn.  If I hadn't been just finishing my 50 miles, I would have taken my pepper spray and tried to chase him down and told him he rides like an a__ and his actions reflect badly on me.

Maybe it's not the skis, but the people. I seem to have noticed that there are fewer obnoxious snow boarders than there used to be. Have they all come back to skiing??

« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 11:01:22 am by jim-ratliff »
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ToddW

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2011, 11:28:43 am »
... And, you know, sometimes I wonder if it's just sour grapes when people who worked hard acquiring skills to ski certain terrain and conditions on one type of ski grouse and complain when they find themselves sharing that very same terrain with a middle-aged lady on S3's.

Liam,

No doubt there's an element of this at play.  But there's also a very real fear that honest high performance skis may become impossible to find as a result.  They're already becoming scarce.  Many who have developed their skills through long, hard work don't want to downgrade to a far less capable ski.

Liam

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2011, 11:54:08 am »
Well, I don't know, Todd-I think high performance skis will be found where they always were found...as race skis and one step down race skis.  Honestly, in the straight ski era, guys (and gals) who wanted a ripping ski bought race skis, from about 1998-2008 the carving craze brought a lot of race ski attributes to a wider, more general (and more economical) segment of the ski industry.  There is definitely a move away from that at the moment...but I believe, just as before, the technically, and aspiring technically advanced skiers will still find the tools they are looking for among race oriented skis.  Choices will be slimmer, but I bet quality continues to evolve.



then again, with the 40m turn radius standard in GS I could be very wrong!  FWIW-I have 4 pairs of skis..and I still DON'T own a rockered/ early rise ski.

Yeah Max, that was what I was saying, ...I have no opinion about one ski being 'safer' than another. 

Gary

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2011, 01:10:49 pm »
Holy moly JB...rocker skis "promote and encourage poor technique"....wow...that one knocked me off my chair..didn't see that coming. I so disagree with you on that. I've skied rockered skis for the last 3 years and use them when pow is boot high and above or sooner if it's nasty cement crud. My technique is the same on those as is on my Kastle 78 BUT...I can get away with more on the rockered AS THE CONDITIONS MAY REQUIRE...scarving, carving, slithering, you know..the tools we talked about that may be required to ski 3 dimensional snow. The ski is a tool...it's the driver that either has or has not the skills to maximize it's capability.

I have a similar Liam story to report around my wife who has been to Harb and Clendenin schools of ski.. She also skis the Kastle 78 but at 106lbs...gets great float. However in Jackson last season the new 12" of snow was particularly heavy and she was working so hard, wearing herself out and at times skiing on the edge of control (saftey factor here). I rented her a pair of Salomon Heaven and Hells at 99 underfoot and she danced all afternoon in the heavy wet cement and had so much more confidence and "felt safer".

As far as where new gear is going, I for one have enjoyed the changes and knowing I'm adaptable, will continue to enjoy whatever new gear comes down the pike or heck....just keep skiing what I got.

G

jbotti

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2011, 01:31:05 pm »
I hold firm to that statement. I have yet to see anyone skiing rocker regularly (including ex WC skiers) that has not had their technique move backwards. Many don't even know it. If you aren't reguarly having your skiing videotaped it is actually hard to tell. Now everyone feels like their skiing better and improving, but if you look closely on video as to what is occuring, in general this is not the case. Never confuse the way ones skiing seems and feels versus what a trained eye looking at video (or in person) will see.

Max and I have spent a lot of time looking at video of our own skiing and one thing is for sure, what you think and feel is happening in your skiing very often is not! So Gary, if you have had video shot and you have looked at it and seen that your technique is uncahnged on rockered skis, then you know and you are in a small group of skiers whose technique has held up on rocker. But if you are going by the way things seem when your skiing, that is not a valid test.

If you haven't done the video test I encourage you to do so.

Gary

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Re: Harald Harb's 2012 Ski Reviews
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2011, 01:51:20 pm »
Hey guys I would agree that it will not look 100% the same...no doubt in my mind. I was NOT referring to how my skiing LOOKED, I was referring to the technique I apply  is as close to possible with a fat board as to what I put into skiing a carving board.  Now add the wiggle around the rock, a scarv around the tree, a steer here and steer there...whatever it takes to get the job done. I've used a few more tools to stay in charge.  I don't own the rockers to ski them like I ski the carving ski...I use them as a specific conditions tool to make my skiing more enjoyable for me. Analyzing how I look skiing them is irrelevant to me. What is important is that they allow me to do things I can't do as well and with less energy I use when skiing on my carving boards.

I know too if I'm skiing rockered boards or any fat board on groomed or hard snow conditions, there's no comparison in technique quality to skiing a great carving ski. BUT when I do, I apply my technical movements the same way but the results may not look as technically perfect...(although I've made some pretty good turns on soft snow days with rockers)... ..But to say that "technique moves backwards", for condtions in deep snow or  narly wet snow, there's no going backwards if you already OWN the skills. AH yes... Pretty sweet squared up, centered and riding 2 feet of blower with just a touch and feathered edge....We need some NOW!

Interesting topic guys...I appreciate the banter. I hope we can get a few more to participate on their experiences and thoughts.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 02:02:05 pm by Gary »