Author Topic: Difficult Run trail to the Great Falls of the Potomac  (Read 551 times)

jim-ratliff

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Difficult Run trail to the Great Falls of the Potomac
« on: August 02, 2011, 09:48:33 am »

Lynn mentioned our first ride on Difficult Run (in Virginia, a Run means a river or stream, i.e. the first battle of the Civil War at "Bull Run").  The trail is mostly flat, but does have several stream crossings and quite a few rocky sections.  We (well, mostly I) walked some of the rocky sections going out, we both rode everything on the way back (but no pictures of the harder sections).

On the way out, Lynn didn't quite make it all the way across the 4th picture's stream, but aced it on the way back.




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« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 03:18:47 pm by jim-ratliff »
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jim-ratliff

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And a picture of the Great Falls of the Potomac from the Great Falls National Park overlook.  Picture is are from the web, not that much water at this time of year.

During big rain events, the falls is completely filled up and water will be more than 10 feet deep where the photographer is standing.  A big choke point in the Potomac.


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« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 10:05:36 am by jim-ratliff »
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Svend

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Looks like a nice trail, Jim.  Very scenic, and some fun, interesting stuff to ride over to keep it interesting.  Thanks for the pics.  Were the rocky sections much rougher than the pictures show? Doable with a full-suss bike?

I have to travel down that way in mid-September, and I'm thinking I might toss my bike in the back of the truck to ride some of the trails there.  Perhaps you could point me to a couple of your favourites....?

Say, how are your new tires working out on the terrain down there? If I recall, you put the Kenda SB-8's on your bike and Lynn's too? Replacing the Karmas...correct? How are you finding their grip on rocks and roots? I need to get some new rubber for our youngest daughter's bike (an XC hard tail) to give her better rolling resistance, and those are high on my list to look at.  Just not sure about how they would handle that kind of terrain, which we also have a lot of here on our single track.  Let me know how they are performing for you...

Cheers!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 04:58:00 pm by Svend »

jim-ratliff

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The limiting factor is the rider, not the bike.   ;D   However, the picture above isn't daunting at all, and I can see the route I would take up and through/around the rocks.  The places that intimidate me are where its a little bit steeper and going downhill, and there is a 6-9"" drop on the far side of the rock (or root) from erosion. The coordination of riding the brakes to hold speed and not locking up the front tire as it does that 6-9" drop is still beyond my confidence level. 

Would definitely be fun to show you around a bit depending on the dates.  Do you know what dates yet.  I'll check around some and see if there's stuff north of town that we could explore.  However,   :o  Lynn has first priority, and we have the Century on Oct. 15th that we have to start getting ready for during September.

Tires. 
  • Lynn is riding with Small Block 8 on rear and Karma on the front, I had the same for a month or so, but finally migrated the rest of the way and put a SB8 on the front as well. 
  • As part of a recent ride, we swapped front tires. We both agree that it feels like there "might" be a slight improvement with the SB8 (and the emphasis is on 'slight'). If I'm doing slalom-like turns on blacktop I can definitely feel the better grip from the SB8, but maybe I seldom really lean the bike over onto the edges of the tread when on the trail?? 
  • Both are a really light carcass, the SB8 has a lot more rubber between the carcass and the road due to all the tread blocks.
  • The SB8 is noticeably heavier than the Karma. The numbers are only around 560 grams vs. 450, but it feels heavier (and all the extra weight, I'm sure, is in the tread). I can feel the difference in acceleration.
  • The Karma is a 1.9, the SB8's are 2.0 and reviews say they are actually more like a 2.1 tire (its a wide tread pattern).
  • Both tires roll really well (my only comparison is the rental bike from last year).  While I've had both tires above 25 miles per hour rolling downhill, I think the Karma rolls slightly better and comes up to speed faster.
  • I added the SB8 on the front for that 'little' bit better grip on the front, but mainly because the extra protection of the carcass by the tread blocks seemed like a good idea for someone my weight.
  • I think someone used to riding 800 gram tires would be amazed by either tire as to how well they roll.
Bottom line, for someone lighter like your daughter I would probably go with the Karma.  Even less rolling resistance than the SB8, less inertia to get up to speed when accelerating, and she's not heavy enough to worry about driving a rock through the more exposed carcass of the Karma.  (And that's also pretty much why I told Lynn  that I didn't think the upgrade to a SB8 was worthwhile for her.  And she wasn't "gotta have one of those" after we swapped front tires).
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 09:35:42 am by jim-ratliff »
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Svend

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The places that intimidate me are where its a little bit steeper and going downhill, and there is a 6-9"" drop on the far side of the rock (or root) from erosion. The coordination of riding the brakes to hold speed and not locking up the front tire as it does that 6-9" drop is still beyond my confidence level. 

I hear you....and ditto for me.  I have encountered a few spots like that recently, inadvertently....ca me up suddenly around a blind corner kind of situation.....12 to 18 inch drop over large rocks...you know the scene.   Cursed loudly, clenched rear cheeks, body rigid....but luckily didn't lock the brakes, so miraculously made it through without falling.  Still don't know how that worked (must have had my eyes clamped shut) but blessed my tires for holding their grip.

As an aside, I continue to be amazed at the kind of terrain that the 29er can handle without a blinking or skipping a beat.  This is really the first season that I put the new bike through its paces on single track.  Those bigger wheels just smooth out the roughest terrain, and make the really knarly stuff seem like child's play.  At this point, any limitations are definitely in the mind of the rider, and not with the bike, as I have not found any terrain around here that the bike can't handle with aplomb.

Speaking of tires -- thanks for the advice on the SB8's.  Good stuff to know.  She has Maxxis Ignitor on there now, which are actually quite light....about 550g or so....but she finds the rolling resistance a bit of a nuisance.  She is quite light (115lbs) and is only 12 years old, and is riding a solid bike (not heavy per se, but built for climbing and to take a beating, so not the fastest in straight line acceleration and speed).  She could use all the advantage I can give her wrt. tires and bike fit, etc.

Previous tires on her bike were Hutchinson Python which had a solid center bead and rolled smoothly over hard pack.  Drawback with those was poor grip on roots and rocks -- she was slipping all over the place, in spots where our other bikes were holding fine.  Knowing that there is no such thing as an ideal tire for all conditions, I would like to get her something with low rolling resistance, light underfoot, but still have great edge hold on off-camber slopes, roots, rocks, etc..  The Karma might do the trick very nicely.  Also on my short list are Maxxis Larsen, WTB Exiwolf, and the Geax Saguaro.  Lots to choose from, and your insight is most helpful.

Anyone else have any experience? Josh, are you tuned in to this thread? You probably eat these tires for breakfast every day  :P  ;D  Let me know if you have any advice to toss in here.

Cheers,
Svend
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 01:16:38 pm by Svend »

jim-ratliff

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Svend:

I'll be glad to send you an "almost new" foldable Karma in a box.  Can't be that much to ship it and I would certainly prefer to recycle it?  Just say the word (and send me an address).

But only one, I'm keeping the other one "just in case".

Also, Lynn's satisfaction with the Karma's grip on gravel has gone up significantly since she cut the air pressure down quite a bit (but not in tubeless range).
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 01:15:14 pm by jim-ratliff »
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Svend

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Thanks for the offer, Jim.  If you really must get rid of it, then I can take it back with me in a month or so.....

Ah, the old air pressure question comes back again! Glad to hear that Lynn is finding lower pressures better for grip.  But what about you?

jim-ratliff

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Ah, the old air pressure question comes back again! Glad to hear that Lynn is finding lower pressures better for grip.  But what about you?

I think I have settled in the 45/50 (f/r) range for packed trails and 40/45 for single track with lots of "terrain features" and no highway getting to or from.
I did get a flat at one point with 35 in the front.  I currently have a "green slime" tube in the front, it wasn't any heavier than a regular tube.

What I found very interesting about the GEAX link you sent (see my other post) is because where I have settled is very close to their recommendations for my combined weight on a full suspension bike.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 10:07:52 am by jim-ratliff »
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bushwacka

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I was unable to log in for a few days.....

Jim those pressure are still super high. You really need to lose those tubes. The tubes are actualyl holding you back.

on tires, please note all are 29er except where noted

The SB8 does remarkable well on dry hard surface and that is about it, its roll really fast but rolling fast is useless if you can not use momenteum to keep you in between turns.  I had issues flatting them tubeless by tearing though tread on rocks so I stopped running them.

The Karma had almost the rolling resistance of the SB8, with some better traction on loose dirt. Still had problem with tires getting shreded so I stopped using them.

The ignitor IMO is a great tire, awesome rear tire, actually rolls pretty fast and has on great grip on tons of surfaces. IF you daughter finds them slow rolling take the tubes out of the rim run them at 20 psi they will roll faster for her with out tubes and at the proper pressure..  If I was on a 26er I would be running these at least on the rear for some races. They make a LUST sidewall verison in the 26er that mounts tubeless super easily, and is nearly indestructible.  there is no 29er tubeless option and again I had issues with flats.



The pythons is a tire I have used and continue to use. I started using them when I won a set and mounted them on my 26er. they roll really fast, grip turns better than the SB8 or Karma, grip dry roots and rocks great and best off all like much hutchison they can take a real beating. I have never had one tubeless ready verison fail me of these fail me.  they are my go to race tire for any race where its mostly dry, with alot of gravel road. They also make a cross verison that rocks on dry hard dirt/grass. Many people use these on the NUE series as they roll fast with out falling apart on rocks. I ran them tubeless I am sure it increased the grip of the tire on roots and rocks, in fact on dry roots and rocks its amoung the best tires I have ever tried.  With that said I never use for just riding around because its simply is not as fun to ride and knobby tire and lack cornering grip compared to what I normally run.  I think the ignitor is a better all around tire especially if you have a 26er.

I have never tried the Larsen, Exiwolf, or Saguro so I will not comment.

When things get 'varied" on my 29er I run Hutchison Toro. They roll fairly fast, but have great all around grip as long as you do not lean the bike over to far. they also do great in all but the muddiest condition and the Tubeless ready verison is nearly bulletproof.

I also run a Ardent on the front for dry hard to loose conditions. The open knobs just let the tire be leaned over and has great grip
while on edge.

An 700-800 gram tire run tubeless will weigh the same as a 500-600 gram tire with a tube. Given the same weight the tubeless tire will out roll, out last, out grip, and out corner the tubed tire while being more comfortable. The downside is set up but not doing the setup will continue to give you subpar performance on all accounts. Running tubeless makes people seemingly have more skill. I am not skilled enough to ride tubed tires.












bushwacka

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that looks really difficult to ride the 'bridge" doable but easier just to ride in the creek most likely.

jim-ratliff

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Yeah, getting across the 2 foot gap from rock to rock was a challenge. 


"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Svend

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on tires, please note all are 29er except where noted

The SB8 does remarkable well on dry hard surface and that is about it, its roll really fast but rolling fast is useless if you can not use momenteum to keep you in between turns.  I had issues flatting them tubeless by tearing though tread on rocks so I stopped running them.

The Karma had almost the rolling resistance of the SB8, with some better traction on loose dirt. Still had problem with tires getting shreded so I stopped using them.

The ignitor IMO is a great tire, awesome rear tire, actually rolls pretty fast and has on great grip on tons of surfaces. IF you daughter finds them slow rolling take the tubes out of the rim run them at 20 psi they will roll faster for her with out tubes and at the proper pressure..  If I was on a 26er I would be running these at least on the rear for some races. They make a LUST sidewall verison in the 26er that mounts tubeless super easily, and is nearly indestructible.  there is no 29er tubeless option and again I had issues with flats.

The pythons is a tire I have used and continue to use. I started using them when I won a set and mounted them on my 26er. they roll really fast, grip turns better than the SB8 or Karma, grip dry roots and rocks great and best off all like much hutchison they can take a real beating. I have never had one tubeless ready verison fail me of these fail me.  they are my go to race tire for any race where its mostly dry, with alot of gravel road. They also make a cross verison that rocks on dry hard dirt/grass. Many people use these on the NUE series as they roll fast with out falling apart on rocks. I ran them tubeless I am sure it increased the grip of the tire on roots and rocks, in fact on dry roots and rocks its amoung the best tires I have ever tried.  With that said I never use for just riding around because its simply is not as fun to ride and knobby tire and lack cornering grip compared to what I normally run.  I think the ignitor is a better all around tire especially if you have a 26er.

I have never tried the Larsen, Exiwolf, or Saguro so I will not comment.

When things get 'varied" on my 29er I run Hutchison Toro. They roll fairly fast, but have great all around grip as long as you do not lean the bike over to far. they also do great in all but the muddiest condition and the Tubeless ready verison is nearly bulletproof.

I also run a Ardent on the front for dry hard to loose conditions. The open knobs just let the tire be leaned over and has great grip
while on edge.

An 700-800 gram tire run tubeless will weigh the same as a 500-600 gram tire with a tube. Given the same weight the tubeless tire will out roll, out last, out grip, and out corner the tubed tire while being more comfortable. The downside is set up but not doing the setup will continue to give you subpar performance on all accounts. Running tubeless makes people seemingly have more skill. I am not skilled enough to ride tubed tires.

Good one! Thanks for the advice.  Your comments on the Ignitor mirror those of rider reviews on MTBR, so I am inclined to think that my daughter's comments on rolling resistance arise from something else on the bike. Although coming from the Python to the Ignitor I could see why she would feel a difference -- that solid center bead on the Python logically makes it roll better on hard pack.  OTOH, she is noticing far better grip on off-camber slopes, rocks, etc. since the Ignitors went on.  But that may be because the Pythons were getting worn out, and I wasn't playing with air pressure in them yet, and kept them at about 40psi.  Now with the Ignitors, and all the tires on our other bikes, I am keeping them at 30 to 35 psi (with tubes).

I'm going to come back to your comments soon, as the tires on my 29er are wearing out, and I will need new ones soon.  Will check out your recommendations when the time comes.  I am impressed with the Maxxis products, as I am with Geax.  My wife's bike has the Geax Arrojo (no longer made -- similar to the Saguaro), and they have performed excellently for her -- fast, grippy, light, good in dry and wet, wearing well....highly recommended.

Got to go....more chat later.....
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 09:20:33 pm by Svend »

Svend

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Continued thoughts from previous post (with break for late dinner in between).....

I think I will keep the Ignitors on her bike for now, and try to improve her pedaling efficiency and power through tweaking seat position, etc.  Putting Jim's barely-used Karma on the front should help a wee bit too....  And then I will for sure try tubeless for her bike -- it would be a perfect candidate.  It is about 5 years old, but a really well made and well spec'd rig -- just not sure if the rims and tires are tubeless ready.  I will check 'em out. 

As for my 29er tires, I will start snooping around now too.  There are Bontrager Jones ACX on there now -- stock with the Fischer Paragon.  I really like their performance on dry hard pack, and their grip on rocks, roots, etc. is excellent.  But I do not like their cornering -- definitely do not inspire confidence in their hold, and feel mushy and squirmy.   Time for a change soon....

Thanks again for the advice, Jim and Josh.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 09:08:49 pm by Svend »

bushwacka

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do not worry if either are tubeless ready, and do not use the stans kits. buy 2 20 inch presta valve tubes make your own rim strips and use the ignitors on whatever rims you have.

I have never owned a tubeless wheelset for MTB, but run everything tubeless.

Svend

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Gotcha....and I remember your post from a couple of months ago, that I can go tubeless on any rim.  Just a bit of extra work if it's not tubeless-ready, I guess.  As I said, my daughter's bike would be a perfect candidate, as it's a solid, robust XC hardtail -- not heavy, but not feather-light either.  She could use a little extra help. 

This is her bike:  http://www.norco.com/2007bikes/templates/model/enlarge.php?id=49&view=&deets=2

Speaking of your method -- ghetto tubeless -- is that the technique you're using to convert all your non-tubeless rims?

Gotta try that ASAP, as I am more than curious about converting all our bikes now.  Talked to my LBS guy recently, who races MTB weekly, and he was getting totally frothy about tubeless.  Time to bite the bullet and give this a whirl.  Both the rims and tires on my Paragon are tubeless ready, so no excuse for me.  Will post back here later this week with my on-trail report.   8)

« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 04:20:51 pm by Svend »

midwif

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that looks really difficult to ride the 'bridge" doable but easier just to ride in the creek most likely.

Can't imagine ever feeling skilled enough to ride those rocks.
But WE DID ride across the creek. On the way out, I made it 7/8ths across and took a dip.
On the way back, made it across w/o problems.
Definitely a learning curve!
Lynn
"Play it Sam"