Pivot Slips - Heaven or Hell ?

[midwif]

Yes, Dear.
 

[meput]

Jim,
Whats up? Where in in the emoticons row is my LMAO. Please fix my connection and access privileges so I can have: to add to me posts
Jim

[bushwacka]

We need a terminology Wiki.  I've heard the word pivot slips forever, I don't really have any idea what they are -- but I still get the idea from the context.

Jim,
Assuming you are talking ski technique, check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUuCWQ_2WOo&feature=player_embedded

Some pretty ugly skiing, IMHO. What does this have to do with real skiing? Reminds me of how biginers go down the steeper parts of my home mountain....sliding, not skiing.

maybe you should embrace the drill so that you can actually ski woods with me and Erik next time your at stowe. using tipping as the only means of turning is great way to make a ton of the mountain unskiable by you or by anyone.

[bushwacka]

Ok....I'm going to be cast out for this one...

I MUST say that guy doing Pivot Slips or what I would refer to as drifting is doing it perfectly and is a fantastic expert tool to use between monster bumps, droping into steeps that are grassed up, rocked up, narrow enter. I have spent hours at all mountain clinic perfecting this tool!

I will guarantee you if you can do that as well as the video demonstrater does, it means you have full control of your edged to edge transition knowing how to fully utilize the flat portion of your ski during transitions.

It's all in the feet my fellow skiers....it all happens there and if you can do it slow and in contoled, you will open up loads more all mountain terrain! 

Ok...cast me out .....I can take it! 

agreed

the thing is pivot slips are not a dead movement pattern. Like(only) tipping to turn is. They also dont require muscling anything, and there is a fine tipping movement involved as any turn or pivot starts with a edge change also know as tipping.  Active rotary although not used much on a short wimpy SL skis on groomers or off trail is a necessary evil in skiing real terrain on real skis.

I can tip to turn and bend a ski better than most, retraction extension whatever. Tipping to turn is easy and doesnt show a mastery of anything and is dead end limiting technique. It limits you to terrain where only that technique on those skis will work. Since this crowd is pretty much into groomer skiing by default of their dogmatic skis and technique choice I guess thats fine. The thing for people to sit here and say they use a ski technique where any active rotary is non existent WILL limit where and what they can ski, it will also limit what kind of ski they can ski on. Suddenly a 30 meter big mountain board that would be great for alot people cant be skied because you have forgetten one component of any turn.

so cliff notes

A. show me someone who can Pivot Slip well, and has skill blending so that every turn isnt pivoted you have shown me a true all mountain skier
B. Tipping to turn works on hyper sidecut skis, in more open places but DOES NOT work in real terrain, in real conditions, on real skis
C. short carvers are NOT all mountain skis, heck all mountain skis arent even all mountain ski.

[LivingProof]

Bushwacker is in the house!

Welcome to Real Skiers, but, to be more correct, Real Recreational Skiers....more of a social site. No one here will claim to be a real all-mountain skier performing at highest levels. You are very welcome to join in any thread and share your thoughts and viewpoints.  Any Level 3 instructor provides insights and understandings of how to ski and your comments are appreciated. There is a pro-PMTS bias on the part of many members.

I will admit to being "a little loose" in my characterization of pivot slips. The skill required to perform the movement requires much practice, and, teaches the finer points of being on edge, getting flat and then getting back on edge.

I would also argue that you do not understand the finer points of PMTS. Harald teaches a very similar drill very early in his writings that perform a the same movements, without twisting of body or rotary. He constantly preaches to his followers to go back and practice the movements, referred to as 1 and 2 foot releases as keys to high performance skiing. He also teaches the concept of "floating" or skiing on flat portion to develop turns. The movements to perform the drill are that same movements to initiate a PMTS turn. Years ago, on Epic, Max tried to demonstrate the drill and he just got steamrolled for "skidding".
I don't think PMTS is as one dimensional as you believe.

In any case, I would love to return to Stowe next winter and have you and Eric demonstrate the finer points of skiing trees, something I get to do very little at my home mountain.

[Gary]

OK B....my counterpoint...you stated: "B. Tipping to turn works on hyper sidecut skis, in more open places but DOES NOT work in real terrain, in real conditions, on real skis"

I believe that no matter what skis I'm on or what snow or terrain I'm turning...I use tipping motions to the outside edges of the skis...even feathered. High edge angles are best kept to groomed snow but the use of drifting or sideslips or whatever it takes to enter the next turn in off piste terrain still uses some transition to an edge and for me...that's tipping. You stated this pretty much in your first paragraph so I was a bit confused.

Tipping and maintaing edge angles is NOT easy for many to learn and once learned IS a mastery of at least that one component of skiing. But it is important that if a skier wants to be able to move off of groomed snow and into off piste conditions, they have to open their minds, watch and learn what those who have mastered to ski the big bumps, steeps, crud, pow etc....if they too want to be able to ski this terrain. Keeping an open mind and willing to try new ski skills is the only way that's going to happen.

As far as "dogmatic ski choice"...I would say that in most cases it's not the ski choice that limits the skiers ability to learn new ski skills. AND what works for you, me or Mike might be completely different. Unless a skier get's a ski that limits their abilty to improve by being to long or to stiff or if the binding is not placed at it's optimum position, the ski is only part of the equation.

Mike...certainly PMTS is NOT one dimensional and I didn't see B state that....I think that those of us who have experienced PMTS clinics realize there is a fantastic foundation to great skiing in that program...not just limited to edges, pole plants, free foot, hips...etc etc etc. But I DO believe that to ski off piste condtions, the discovery and use of additional tools are required.

For me my exposure to guys like Harb and Clendenin has been a truly remarkable experience and continues to open more of the beauty of skiing All Mountain.

G

[bushwacka]

OK B....my counterpoint...you stated: "B. Tipping to turn works on hyper sidecut skis, in more open places but DOES NOT work in real terrain, in real conditions, on real skis"

I believe that no matter what skis I'm on or what snow or terrain I'm turning...I use tipping motions to the outside edges of the skis...even feathered. High edge angles are best kept to groomed snow but the use of drifting or sideslips or whatever it takes to enter the next turn in off piste terrain still uses some transition to an edge and for me...that's tipping. You stated this pretty much in your first paragraph so I was a bit confused.

Tipping and maintaing edge angles is NOT easy for many to learn and once learned IS a mastery of at least that one component of skiing. But it is important that if a skier wants to be able to move off of groomed snow and into off piste conditions, they have to open their minds, watch and learn what those who have mastered to ski the big bumps, steeps, crud, pow etc....if they too want to be able to ski this terrain. Keeping an open mind and willing to try new ski skills is the only way that's going to happen.

Mike...certainly PMTS is NOT one dimensional and I didn't see B state that....I think that those of us who have experienced PMTS clinics realize there is a fantastic foundation to great skiing in that program...not just limited to edges, pole plants, free foot, hips...etc etc etc. But I DO believe that to ski off piste condtions, the discovery and use of additional tools are required.

For me my exposure to guys like Harb and Clendenin has been a truly remarkable experience and continues to open more of the beauty of skiing All Mountain.

G

I meant using ONLY tipping to turn and never adding any extra rotary input. Id be the first to admit that alot of people use rotary in very inappropriate manners. I am just saying there are places where an active guiding of the skis is a good thing. If at all possible I ski using as much edging as possible making turns happen though tipping and balancing against the ski. The thing is even on the most sidecut skis there will be places where you simply CAN NOT bend the ski anymore. I ski far from the hyper sidecut skis, I ski ski in the 19 to 35 meter sidecut range depending on what I am doing that day.

I think tipping to turn is great, just not as a only means.

I got to ski a bump run with some of the guys on this site last weekend. The only guy that was keeping up and not falling was using very skillfull guided rotary(with appropriate edge angle)  The guy who fell behind was using only tipping and was having a ton of trouble staying on a smooth line/ absorbing the terrain. The guy who could really ski was denying an use of active rotary which is a ashame because it was the real reason he was doing better.

[Gary]

Indeed B....on the same page and totally agree. I'm on 17 to 21 meter TR...and fully understand.  Good to have your input.

Lots of mountain to explore gang.... for some, it's Just a matter of adding a few more tools to their skiers tool bag! 

Now how about we talk air turns please?!?!?    wahoooooooooooooo!

Best, G

[jbotti]

BW, it's not worth getting into it, but I could not disagree more with your comments on the need for active rotary and pivoting.

[jim-ratliff]

LivingProof:  I just wanted to say that I really liked your phrasing below ... And so that is now the first line in the Welcome to New Skiers section.
Hope it wasn't copyrighted or anything, because I plan to take full creative credit.   

Welcome to Real Skiers, but, to be more correct, Real Recreational Skiers....more of a social site. Few here will claim to be a real all-mountain skier performing at highest levels.

[meput]

Max, welcome to the RealSkiers forum. It is a tiny corner of cyberspace, but we have fun.

Jim

[LivingProof]

LivingProof:  I just wanted to say that I really liked your phrasing below ... And so that is now the first line in the Welcome to New Skiers section.
Hope it wasn't copyrighted or anything, because I plan to take full creative credit.   

Welcome to Real Skiers, but, to be more correct, Real Recreational Skiers....more of a social site. Few here will claim to be a real all-mountain skier performing at highest levels.

Jim,
Thank you for the compliment. Coming from a master at making all feel welcome in the forum, I am humbled. And, yes, take all the credit...... unless you are borrowing from Lynn.

Mike

[jim-ratliff]

Max, welcome to the RealSkiers forum. It is a tiny corner of cyberspace, but we have fun.

Jim

Ditto


The other Jim

[Gary]

JB and Max....I would agree that using rotary movements may not be THE tool to use in off piste skiing...

But I gotta tell ya...I've skied with some pretty darn technical skiers and if and when you're in a tight chute or tree section, a rotary turn (think twisting) the lower body to change directions can be a handy tool as well as a survival tool. Visualize having to make a quick turn on a steep nasty icy snow condition in a 5 foot opening....heck even dropping over a cornice that an air entry is not on todays menu....one might sideslip over the entry moving in one direction, not like what I see and just pivot the skis due to rocks or whatever in the other direction....someth ing I've personally and rarely ever had to do.

This may not be the preferred way to make a turn..IT"S JUST A TOOL......having many tools in ones ski bag is a good thing in building all mountain confidence.

For many of us, we are talking about highly dangerous and technical terrain that we seldom if ever ski in...but knowing that you've got a back up skill that you know how to apply...."it may not be pretty" but it get's the job done!  Best, g

[bushwacka]

Its important to note that many skiers that say they tip to turn also use other movements (counteracting for example), and when put together no active rotary is needed to have the skis swing right around. Eric D. has pubicly stated as much and he is an amazing off-piste skier!

Active rotary movements are not a requirement for expert off-piste skiing.

you, harold, Eric D, could not ski the off piste terrain I am talking about without active rotary. I have yet to see any proof other wise. There is a chute that I am sure would kill people if they did not actively twist their skis.

at 3:50 in this video, 50 degree pitch, about 190 cm wide, with a 30 foot cliff to flat waiting for you underneath if you start a slide for life. I would dare anyone foolish enough to not turn their skis to try.



though out the video you can see active rotary being as well you can see when tipping used alot(like at 3:20) used and both offensive and defensive skills are used to make this skiing possible.

here is a picture of the chute from near the top of adam's apple showing its pitch and terrain from a 3rd person.



to sit here and keep denying any rotary usage is really making your argument look weaker and weaker.

to finish the biggest key to off trail skiing(or any skiing) is embracing all moves we can do with our skis to ski the maximum amount of places. to limit ones self to a 3 of the 4 skill will leave serious gaps in your skiing and what you can ski.

I personally HATE skiing this chute as every time its IMO a risk to get down. The deal is its the quick way to 2500 vertical feet of the some of the best tree skiing anywhere.