Pivot Slips - Heaven or Hell ?

[jim-ratliff]

Oh my goodness Jim!!  You mentioned sterility and senility in a thread about pivot slips.

Does that mean if I do pivot slips, it will make me sterile and senile.  Or correctly "more senile"?

Todd/Meput:


Nooooooooooo.  You read incorrectly.      I mentioned sterility and senility in the same sentence as Gary, trying to reassure him that we were cognizant of his special challenges and that we wouldn't cast him out of the "family" just because he voiced his opinion on Pivot Slips.


So the take away has to be that its only a concern if you are older than Gary, not if you do pivot slips.

And just for those that don't already know -- I am older than Gary and I too am a proud grandfather or I wouldn't be picking on the young'un.

[Gary]

All good things in life including one's performanc on the mountain depends on Depends at your age Jim.... ..

Yes as I am minutes younger than you, I too suffer the melodies of age everywhere except on the mountain skiing.

Well...not too many melodies cause well.....we live life every day.

Having said that....let's get some people on the Pivot slips band wagon...come on Mikey, "try it....you'll like it"!

G

[jbotti]

I think I heardd a very smart man when it comes to skiing (who has a website where people discuss his approach to skiing) said that a variety of different movements can be helpful if used in the right way. Now I agree with this gentleman that pivot slips as an end, as something to aspire to and to have persent in ones skiing is not a good thing. Having said that, when I was working on opening my hips, this gentleman had me keep the skis flat and had me create rotation only using my hips (very similar to pivot slips) and I very quickly got the sensation of what it is like to have my hips counter and create counteracting forces on each turn. This was a great use of some movements that I would never use and it was very effective in getting the result we were after.

My issue with pivot slips is that it is very easy to turn the skis without usig any tipping of the feet and skis. In fact when you watch them demonstrated by even the best skiers in the PSIA, there is no tipping at all going on. Hence when people learn this and work it into their skiing, they aren't using any of the sidecut of the ski and they are creating rotation with the hips. I don't think that this is even a subtle distinction. It really is night and day. Because many of us think that tipping is the most important and most difficlut skiing movement, I just choose not to ski with movements that encourage me not to tip.

Now that Ron and Phil have left us I can probably mention Harald Harb all I want!

[midwif]

JBotti
If it ever comes down to someone trying to enact a rule that you can't mention either PSIA or PMTS in discussion, then I AM OUTTA HERE!!
I am a firm believer in the right of free speech. 

I think that we all just want to avoid anyone being spoken to disparagingly.
Differences of opinion/viewpoint should always be welcome.

I took Clendenin's camp at Gary recommendation. John is a beautiful skier and his method works, but I am not the skier that Gary is and could not incorporate his "movements" with PMTS as Gary has done. I was just confused.

And yes, it was VERY interesting reading HH's comment on using pivot at times as a means to instruction. Not as a means to skiing better.

Lynn
 Lynn

[LivingProof]

Having said that....let's get some people on the Pivot slips band wagon...come on Mikey, "try it....you'll like it"!

G

Mikey rises to the bait, sniffs pivot slips, and swims away......almost.

G,
Some say it's all good, that is exercises that help your skiing. Certainly, I've posted enough to prove that I'm in the camp of improving your skills and I do drills alot....and I mean....alot. The archer more than the arrow!

I don't have a problem with practicing pivot slips. We all get in terrain where sliding downhill is useful. We all need to control the float portion of a turn, how to get your skis to float, how to end the float. I admit that my skiing will improve when Im better at getting into and out of float. Watching the video, the people who demonstrate Pivot Slips are very good at what they are doing, so are people who ski "switch" and it's a similar movement continued for another 90 degrees.

From a technique perspective, watch the body position of the first person demonstrating the Pivot Slip, especially his hips and shoulders. Both are pointed clearly down the hill. Far cry from the square position taught and espoused by PSIA. Much, much closer to the body positions of Harald's PMTS. In PMTS, there is a drill to perform linked 1 and 2 foot releases which looks very similar to what is in the PSIA video, except, that the turn is completed and not held in the "slip" position. Also, we would work on keeping the feet together. In PMTS, having the hips and shoulders pointed downhill is referred to as "counteracting" - an essential movement, something not espoused in PSIA, and certainly not part of the Mantra of rotary, edging, balance pressure. Of course in PMTS, "edging" is replaced by "tipping" and in the video, the demonstrator is flattening his skis by rolling his knees (or at least that's what I see).

I'd like to see the average skier to the same drill without using gross body rotation motions.

Bob Barnes sure does not ski in counteracted positions. So is it "do as I do" or "do as I say?

[meput]

This thread was much more fun when it was all tongue in cheek  . Now it has turned serious and we are starting to discuss the pros and cons of pivot slips  .

I think we have all used sideslipping maneuvers as we ski - no matter what skiing technique we ascribe to. But to rotate the ski and side slip at the same time makes no sense. A side slip is an unstable position. As a side slip is performed, weight has to be distributed between both skis to maintain or more probably, reestablish balance. Adding rotational torque to perform a "pivot" side slip from an unstable position makes my artificial knee tremble in fear. Except for the rare hockey stop, thanks, but no thanks for this old body  .

[Gary]

Gang...I think for me as I see the point here is that being able to side slip can be "hugely" beneficial in a variety of condtions, ice, steeps, enter death bumps, dropping into a wind crusted steep,  between tight trees, in the terrain park....all as part of getting to your first turn on edges or feature you are about to jump...

Using the pivot or rotary part of the exercise is to me, just that part of the exercise so that you can effectively side slip in both directions. For as many times as I've side slipped or drifted in a controled directional move, I've never pivoted back the other way to continue side slipping on that run.

I've really and practically only used it to control speed and direction in or on terrain that I felt I needed to garner the courage to enter or get beyond a nasty snow condition.

I too believe you don't want to make a habit of skiing a run of any kind with pivot slips but being able to side slip or drift or float the skis with skis pointed in either direction is an outstanding tool by my standards...

Now let's get up on our roofs and try some pivot slips.... Best, g

[jim-ratliff]

After Gary got me thinking about it, I think I agree with him (and with Meput). It's not a conscious technique, but I use the drifting/side slipping part.  I'm thinking of a an experience with Lynn where we went through the ropes under a power line at SugarBush (OUCH, my decision, not hers). 

It turned into a really steep double fall line around a rock outcropping with huge ruts/bumps created by people skiing much faster than what I wanted.  The only time I remember actually pivoting may have been on top of bumps; most of the time I was just side-slipping but still able to tip and use edges for the turns.  I guess I would say my "technique" (such as it is) is somewhere between PMTS brushed carve and Clendenin's drifting until you see/pick the bump you want to turn on.

[Gary]

Nice Jim...well except for that "go ahead Lynn...it's plenty safe....there's no 1500 feet of black icy bumps, or trees tighter than ..... , it's a fun trail...show me the way". Lynn ALWAY make Jim go first when there is the unknown...I mean you are younger, much better looking, OK...maybe you guys should let Mikey go first! 

Jim, glad to see you're using all your ski survival tools!

G

[Svend]

.....I too suffer the melodies of age....
G

Oh, Oh! This is more serious than I thought.  Now he's hearing music in his head.  Forget the blue pills...he needs stronger stuff.  Lynn, some Haldol please. Stat! 

[jim-ratliff]

Well, my real ski survival "skill" requires removal of the skis from my boots. 
Don't remember being that desperate recently, at least not when going downhill.  Now hiking to follow Lynn into Catherine's bowl at Alta, yeah, ski's off.

Svend:  Gary spells phonetically.  Unfortunately he also spent several years in Texas and the words that he hears in his head are a real phonetic challenge.

[meput]

Oh boy, we now are onto "ski survival skills"  . My current "ski survival skill" of choice entails Geary's HSA, a hot tub..... 

I love this forum and its tendency to thread drift   

[Svend]

Svend:  Gary spells phonetically. 

Ahhh....I see.  Shame, as I was really curious to know what the melodies were.  Would have made an interesting research experiment, worthy of Freud.

OTOH, if it's maladies he's got,    well....there are pills for that too.   

(Jim, we have no little yellow animated faces for ducking....I'm going to have something hurled at me soon.....can you get me one of those? I need to run for cover......)

[midwif]

Yes! More emoticons!
We also need the one of kicking ones feet on the floor while laughing one's A** off.
L.

Please?

[jim-ratliff]

(Jim, we have no little yellow animated faces for ducking....I'm going to have something hurled at me soon.....can you get me one of those? I need to run for cover......)

Bad news Svend (and Living Proof).  Someone as big and tall as y'all are -- even when you duck you are still a big target.

And Jim, YES, I too love the repartee -- Lynn, did I use that word you taught me correctly?   

Lynn, as requested!