Author Topic: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever  (Read 551 times)

rumandsun

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Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« on: October 31, 2010, 04:46:32 pm »
Hello,

I haven't purchased ski's in forever but last year caught the bug again and now need to buy new ski's.

I would classify myself as an advanced to lower expert skier--grew up swivel-hipping parallelling, form usually strong frontside but admit form suffers a bit in really steep bumps (some runs great and some disasters) as well as in lousy snow.? I am 6 feet, 175 pounds.? Physically very fit and strong.? Current ski's are Salomon Force 9's (which i have had for some years), which I have liked in front? side but liked less backside.? They are tired though in any event.

Anyway, I caught the bug tree skiing steep stuff in a couple of feet of powder last vacation (Utah).? ?Call me naive but I thought after "parabolics" would end innovation but of course that is not the state of the world as I seek to get more days this coming season and am researching!? I ski 100% western US with about half in Mammoth and half in Utah.?

Want to be able to have a better powder/tree experience but need to deal with the sometimes poor quality days of Mammoth with its steep and icy shoots as well as moguled up bowls.? All things considered I would rather have the ski that handles the trees and powder more effectively though.? Was looking at Bluehouse Maestro's and would appreciate any advice on the company and/or the ski's.? Also they seem to like ski's longer, or is that just a function that they seem to make wider waisted ski's, which have me intrigued.

Appreciate any advicde or insight.


Thanks,

Fred




« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 08:52:42 am by jim-ratliff »


jbotti

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Re: Starting point for newbies.
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2010, 05:48:16 pm »
Wow, when I was reading your post I was thinking of an 88mm waisted ski. I just looked up the Bluehouse Mastro and it is a no camber, rockered tip and tail ski that is 118mm underfoot. I guess everyone can have a different definition of versatile. To me this is a very one dimensional ski. It is designed for powder and 3 d conditions. Rockered tip and tail can help in powder and maybe in some chowder, but the tips just defelct in chop, bumps and on hard snow. The tails wash out almost immediately when you have them on edge. With no camber these skis will not carve all that well on groomed terrain. In my opinion they will be a handful in bumps that have hardened some and they may be OK in soft bumps (but definitely not my first choice).

As a powder specific ski, this may be a good choice (but not what I look for in a powder ski, but that is a different discussion). As a 1 ski quiver (which is what I thought you are looking for based on your post) I think this ski leaves a lot to be desired.

IN my opinion a good one ski quiver for Mammoth and Utah would be 85-95mm underfoot, maybe some slight or minimal tip rocker, no rocker in the tail and traditional camber underfoot. There are a whole host of skis that fit this bill but before going there give us some feedback and let me know if we are even close to being on the same page.

I ski in the sierras regularly and also in the rockies regularly. Nice float is great for the sierras where the snow can be heavy. But it all gets skied out so fast. In the crud and chop I like more traditional skis and design. But others here may feel somewhat differently.
'
Hope that helps some.

Philpug

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Re: Starting point for newbies.
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 07:15:29 am »
Fred,

Are we to assume your boots are as old as the Salomon Forces that you still have? If so, boots are priority, get yourself to a good fitter first. While the ski is the fun and sexy thing to talk about boots are more important. You marry boots, you have date with skis. With that said, avoid the Bluehouses and stick (as JB said) to somehting in the mid 80's underfoot segment.

rumandsun

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Re: Starting point for newbies.
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2010, 08:38:53 am »
Thank you for your advice.  I will figure out something more narrow in the waist.

My boots are actually more recent (4yo) but I will take them in to a shop and get an opinion on replacing those too.

What do you think of the Line Chronic Cryptonite?

Seems like an all-arounding with a lean toward powder.

Regardless, discussing length, if I went in that direction does  178cm and not 173cm look like the correct length?

Fred

Ron

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2010, 09:26:50 am »
Sounds like boots first, check proper fit and allignment, then go demo or at teh very least, go to a few shops and see the skis. Where do you live? There are a ton of options out there and I have no idea of your level and what some consider steeps and trees are a lot different to others. On the surface, a ski of around the mid 90's to 105 would work for sure but there are so many other issues to consider like rocker or traditional for instance. At 6' 175 I would be looking at something around 180 and if rockered, a 184-189 length; again depending. 

jbotti

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2010, 10:41:56 am »
Fred, here are a list of nice skis in with 85mm-95mm waists. These are all good one ski quivers:

Dynastar Sultan 85
Dynastar Sultan 94
Kastle MX 88
Kastle MX 98 (could work as an everyday ski, a little wide but proba great in fresh snow)
Kastle FX 94
Fischer Watea 94
Head Peak 88
Elan Apex
Blizzard Atlas
Blizzard Magnum 8.7
Fischer Motive 84
Salomon Enduro
Fischer Watea 98 (has minmal tip and tail rocker)
Rossignol SC 86
Atomic Snoop
Line Prophet 90

This would be a good list  to start with. The next question for you is whether you want to emphasize hard snow performance or soft snow performance. No ski does it all great so when you have one ski you are looking for the trade offs that suit you best. The other question is whether you would consider a 2 ski quiver, which opens up a new range of possibilities.

Ron

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2010, 03:39:45 pm »
john, he stated he wanted the emphasis on powder/soft snow

btw- got to play with a bunch of new skis, the dynastar 6th sense slicer is a very, very nice looking (profile speaking) with a nice flex.  the Rossi S3 in the 178 has a much more usable profile than the 184.  The Blizzard One would also make a great choice.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 03:43:06 pm by Ron »

jbotti

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 10:11:03 pm »
You're right. If only I could read!!

Still it is a nice list of one ski quivers. Maybe Fred will give us some more feedback.

rumandsun

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2010, 07:02:56 am »
Thank you all for your advice!

My thinking was to look for a ski that is more powder oriented.  My thinking is that I can use my Force 9's for the more mediocre Mammoth days (my experience is Mammoth tends to be icey about half the time and fantastic the other half)  and I am intending on increasing my Utah days.  ;D  If it works out, I will then buy a another ski which is more of a technical ski.

What this discussion as well as looking at ski reviews here and elsewhere has shown me as that the industry, reviewers, and consumers are all over the board (no pun intended  8)) in their perception of what makes an appropriate ski in particular conditions--almost a state of transition if you will.   I suspect that in a few years some of these styles, at least in their extreme, if not repudiated will be narrowed (no pun intended 8) in terms of what is considered an optimal ski for certain conditions.

I tend to be a gadget person so would most likely lean to buy two ski's--an all arounder and a more powder oriented ski.  For the first purchase I am leaning towards the more powder oriented ski but need it to tur decently as I like the steep trees.

Fred

Fred

Ron

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2010, 07:22:29 am »
Fred, where do you ski? At your size a typical advanced skier in the trees and steeps in powder and soft snow is on 100 plus skis..... but your answer here is going to be most likely different from an answer at TGR and Epic. It really depends a lot on your level and what you like. For instance, I like wider skis, my everyday is a Kastle MX98, my powder ski is a Atomic BentChetler 122 underfoot, with tip/tail rocker.  I am 6' 168. I ski a lot of steamboat pretty tight trees and enjoy more technical terrain, I am not an expert but I have fun. I like the feel of wider boards, there are many here who are very technique-oriented skiers who prefer narrow skis, there are no right or wrong answers its what's right for you.  So its probably a good idea to figure out what you like and then gravitate to those who are like-minded.

jbotti

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2010, 08:23:46 am »
Fred, here are my views on Powder skis. I am not ncessarily in the majority. some people just love Rocker. A lt depends on how you ski, where you ski (Mammoth and Utah is what you have said) and what terrain you seek to ski. So here are some thoughts on powder skis:

Today there is more variety in the technical specs of powder skis than in any other kind of ski. Essentially there are powder skis for every different type of snow and terrain and every different approach to skiing . So the first two questions that someone buying powder skis must ask and answer is first where do I ski most and where will I use these skis most. East coast very different than Colorado and Tahoe or PNW very different from East Coast and the Rockies. The next question is really about camber and rocker which is all the craze today. I owned 3 pairs of skis with some amount of Rocker and I have sold them all. In my opinion, Rocker is really good for someone who has poor technique and needs help skiing powder or for someone that is an extreme skier that is dealing with wind buff in steep lines at high speeds. Rocker does float better in powder and skis with tip and tail rocker pivot every easily. In tight trees they are easy to use because you can resort to pivoting (terrible technique) and the tails will come right around. Some people love this. The problem is when you get into crud and chop. Rockered tips deflect!! They deflect a lot. As well with a lot of tail rocker it is hard to keep the ski on edge in a GS type turn (as the skis just want to pivot). For me this is terrible in chop as I can?t ride the natural sidecut of the ski and power through the chop with the skis on edge. Add to that the tip deflection, and I find myself doing way too much wok in chop on a powder day on rockered skis. That?s why I don?t ski them anymore.

So here is the real clincher for me on not using Rocker. For a decent skier, skiing untracked is actually pretty easy. It is a little easier on Rockered skis, but everything else is harder or worse or requires the wrong approach on rocker. I also find that in untracked I don?t need crazy wide ski either and because I like skis that I can turn and use the sidecut on in the chop I don?t like an ultra wide ski. All these are things to ask and answer when buyiing powder skis.

Mammoth and Snowbird and Alta get skied out real fast. This means you can ski fresh lines for the first few runs and after that you are skiing crud and chop.

Personally I would recommend a ski somewhere between 100 and 115m wide under the foot. Probably the sweet spot for a do everything powder ski is around 100mm under foot and 115 and higher gets you a much less versatile ski. If you will be skiing more powder and fluffier powder and at less than GS speeds (powder 8 turns) I would go with a softer flexing ski. If you are skiing in more chop and heavier snow and you like to go straight and faster I would get a stiffer ski (more like GS and Super G turns in powder).

Gary

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2010, 09:23:08 am »
Hmmm....Ski Logik...Chariot?


jbotti

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2010, 09:54:59 am »
I like that idea. I am skiing it this weekend.

Fred, here is a list of skis that I either own and like, have demoed and liked or am intrigeud by but have yet to demo:

K2 Hardside 98mm underfoot. Most would say not a pure powder ski but i love it in fresh snow
K2 Sidestash 108mm underfoot. Supposedly a wider version of the Hardside. If so should be a great ski and a super powder specific ski that will hold up well later in the day
Atomic Atlas 115m underfoot in the 182cm length. This is darren Rahlves powder ski that he helped design. This like the 2 K2 skis all have a flat tail, which I love.
Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot 101mm underfoot but with a tight truning radius of 15m. Supposedly rails on groomers and at 101 uder foot woll float well in Pow
Moment Belafonte 106mm underfoot, modest tip rocker. Similar to the Sidestash and the Hardside with minimal tip rocker. No hard tail but a twin tip tail.
ON3P Vicik 104mm underfoot, minimal tip rocker, twin tip tail
Kastle MX 98 98mm underfoot, minmal tip rocker, great do everything ski that will ski powder well
Kastle MX 108 similar to the 98 except woder and less gerat on hard snow and better and easier in pow
Line Prophet 115, tip rocker, twin tip tail

All these will ski powder well, but also give you stability and power skiing the chop after everything gets skiied out. All are easy to manuever in trees manily due to the minimal tip rocker which makes turn initiation easier.


Hope that helps.

Ron

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2010, 10:02:10 am »
Again, opinions will vary!  ;D

jim-ratliff

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2010, 10:18:41 am »

Ron:  List your skis with dimensions and rocker/not and in what ski/snow conditions youwould use them??  Pretty sure you have more than just the Kastle and Bent Chetlers?  Include the Icelantics that you have owned if you think those may be good candidates as well.
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jbotti

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2010, 10:37:57 am »
I would definitley put the Icelantic Shamans on my list as well. Possibly the Nomads as well. Clearly my list is not definitive and it reflects my vews. I agree, giving Fred a bigger list is better than just mine.

Perry

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2010, 11:17:03 am »
I am not a ski expert - esp for powder!!  That said, I would recommend one, two or even three days of demo.  See if you can narrow down to 3 - 6 skis.  Now the hard part; how in the world if you get to demo on a good powder day, do you have the discipline to use some of you time to exchange skis.  If you can find a slopeside demo place, with the skis you want to demo that would be idea. That might be very tough.

It does come down to personal preference, style, body movement yada, yada.

The advice here will help you narrow down.  Over on Epicski, I have found that dawgcatching gives excellent reviews and he skis at Bachelor (would that snow be similar to Mammoth?)

Have fun finding your ride - PS - look at the ski logik including the Bomb Squad

Ron

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2010, 12:07:12 pm »
for a non-rockered ski, the nomad SFT is an excellent choice, keep in mind the actual dims are 146-111-136 not the 105 as published but the 181 is a super versitile fun ski for sure. It was basically my everyday ski last year. however, since I lke the ease and relaxed way you can ski rockers I would look for a rockered tip with some slight rockered tail. If you ski trees and off-piste a lot, you will come to value the rockers ability to float up a bit and not sink in. A lot of off-piste terrain, especially tree'd up stuff has buried debris; branches, roots, rocks and log stumps that when the cover isn't uber deep become dangerous. The rockered tip will make that a little less of an issue. I remember a great day last season where we had 18" of fresh over a thin base, my friend was on his Seth's and was able to surf over a lot of the exposed and just under the surface bramble and stuff where I did not (and subsequently had several face plants). Easy and less work is good in my book and the rockered profile (rocker is now a catch all term) makes it super easy to pivot on (which is also good in my book) and literally turn on a dime.- which is very good! :)  if you take any air, even 5' drops, you will also appreciate a wider platform when landing.  one note regarding crud and rockers, I found skiing wet piled stuff a blast on Hellbents, so it really depends on what you like but I found they crushed crud. I imagine skiing frozen crud may be more of an issue with deflection.

here's a couple more to look at- remember, there are a lot more to choose from!

ON3P Billy goat 186
Atomic Bent Chetler or Blog (110) although the bennie is 123, it has low camber and is more than adequate on soft groomed (not that you want it for that)
Icelantic Nomad SFT 181
Dynastar 6th sense slicer (98 underfoot)
Rossi s3 (184)
Rossi s7 for sure 188
Armada JJ 186
The atlas is a good ski but not a particularly quick turning ski,  the Kastle 108, same, not known or designed as a quick turning ski


jim-ratliff

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2010, 01:27:58 pm »

Fred:

A contrasting point of view (and collection of skis) lest you think that everyone on the forum has a garage full of skis.  I too have recently found the thrill asscociated with skiing off trail and in trees, although not nearly as steep of terrain as John and Ron.  So here is my ski "collection". I am 5'11" and 190 lbs and 62 years old.

Head SuperShape Magnum.  70 mm waist, 176 length.  This is my east coast ski, trees, trails, bumps, whatever.
Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot.  101 mm waist, 178 length.  This is my Utah/Colorado ski, trees, trails, bumps, powder, whatever.  This is an upgrade from an 84mm waisted ski to match spending a higher percentage of time off piste, but still expect at least 1/2 my time to be on groomed trails.

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Gary

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Re: Rum&Sun - ski advice after not purchasing in forever
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2010, 08:15:23 am »
Fred....over the past couple of years I've been watching videos of people skiing big lines in powder, trees, drops....great stuff and I noticed then that whatever they were skiing had lots of absorption. I learned later that they were on this new thing called Rockers..What I gleamed watching them ski was that absorption meant easier on the body, shovel staying above the snow with less concern about what it's hitting or going over and calm and easy look to skiing them.

So...knowing that my 78 width underfoot Kastles can handle all up to boot high (and then some) very relaxed and easy to ski, I wanted something for the off piste, pow days, tree skiing...So after some brain racking, I purchased the Armada JJ's and started to learn where and how Rockers excel.? Let me say I'm still learning about the ski...example....sk iing it traditionally with weight moving from the shovel to the tip....not so good. It's really designed to ski from a tall centered stance but it really excels here. To carve, drift, float, pivot in the tight trees from the center of that ski,.....truly amazing. I also recently read that the rockered tails of this ski can actually be used like air brakes or in this case snow brakes. By applying heel pressure and sinking the tails into the pow, the skis will slow right down. Having not tried this yet, it's nice to know I can use the tails as another ski tool.
I'm only telling my story cause IMO, the rocker ski in backcountry skiing, trees, drops, where you slash, carve, drift pivot...all these things....make it a delight and so much easier. I find myself less tired and truly don't worry about what my tips are hitting...they just have climb action traction...up and over they? go and the skis absorb all sorts of terrain.

If you're looking for a good side or backcountry ski, be sure to at least try a rockered one.

Best, Gary
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 08:39:18 am by Gary »