Author Topic: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot  (Read 1669 times)

ToddW

  • 4-6 Year Member
  • 200 Posts
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
  • Location: Westchester, NY
Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« on: September 02, 2010, 03:50:10 pm »
Jim,

I don't know about carbon fiber skis, but the carbon fiber Dodge boots did quite well in NorAm GS this year and a non-ski-team fellow on them beat Ligety and Bodie a few weeks ago in GS at Coronet Peak.? Several sponsored athletes have done well racing them "off the record" in FIS competition but are bound by their current sponsorship agreements.?

10 years from now, we could all be skiing in carbon boots.? The word is they're great in powder and bumps too, but we'll have to see since those testers are elite athletes, not "real skiers."? HH is wearing an early model pair in part of his upcoming DVD and reportedly is a fan.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 11:03:32 pm by jim-ratliff »

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 04:55:13 pm »
Yeah, I have spoken with Harald several times about the dodge boots. He says they will shortly, within 2-4 years be dominant on the WC circuit because for racing they are vastly superior. When we last spoke about them he had not yet tried them for free skiing and off piste. I will ask him again next time we speak. It's possible that he has not had a chance yet to try them in all mountain conditions. If you are hearing that they are also great off piste, then my guess is that you and I will be in a pair in the next season or two!! Harald just raves about them for hard snow!!

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2010, 02:48:31 am »
We have a couple of Dodge boots at the shop. Jim has been one of the go to guys in the R&D, he is not one to throw around praise often with a new boot but has said this boot is an unfair advantage on a race course.

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2010, 07:44:12 am »
why woud a carbon boot not be good in powder/ chop other than being too stiff?

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2010, 08:16:32 am »
I think that question needs to be answered. Stiffness isn't necessarily bad off piste. Lots of great skiers ski in 150 flex boots in powder and bumps. I ski my 130 flex boots off piste in Montana when it is 0 degrees and they are as stiff as a 150 flex boot (which is not to say that I am a great skier!!). Clearly people need to try these boots off piste. I think we will get some early reads this season from Harald Harb and others (Jim Schaffner) and we can all decide if it sounds like they are worth tryng.

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2010, 08:46:33 am »
sounds like a plan. If they are lighter, that's a good thing for starters.

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2010, 10:08:27 pm »
I just had a production one on today. Although it was a 24 shell, I could feel the power.

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 09:08:17 am »
Maybe one of the moderators will move this portion of the thread into a new one entitled Dodge Boots.

I think Jim was asking for the link. I put it below. Of the four authorized dealers one is Harald Harb and the other is Jim Schaffner. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two best bootfitters in the country are now selling dodge boots!!

http://dodgeskiboots.com/Index.htm

midwif

  • Global Moderator
  • 1000 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 1389
  • Location: New York City
Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2010, 01:25:55 pm »

Uh, Phil, you hve the power at your fingertips.
Hit new topic button and take it away! ;D

Maybe in the boot section?

Jim is without cmptr. This is sent from my droid.
"Play it Sam"

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2010, 08:08:38 am »

Jim is no longer without computer. Thread moved as requested.   ;D ;D ;D
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2010, 09:40:57 am »
BTW, I now remember what Harald told me about these boots. Not only do you get a race fit that is unparalleled but these boots are easy to get on and off. I have skied in tight race boots now for years. I would never give up the fit or the power that you have with the boot, but getting them on and off can be a chore especially after a day of skiing in very cold temps. Evidently the dodge boots open right up and come off instantly with no pain and no grunting. A lot of it is the design but some of it also is the fact that carbon fiber does not get stiffer with colder temps. The stiffness is the same at every temp.

I thnk that most skiers would happily pay an extra $700 for boots that will give them race boot performance with on off ease of a cushy intermediate boot. Cost on these is $1500 which sounds high but again, if they are easy to get on and off, many will jump just for this reason.

Again, if they end being great in all mountain conditions, these may be the ticket for many skiers!!

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2010, 09:50:18 am »
hmm, not this skier! ;D  700 dollars for ease of gettig in and out? no...

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2010, 10:24:19 am »
Yeah $700 may be a lot. But I think if you asked most guys that ski in race boots they would say the one thing that they dislike the most is how hard it is to get them off in the cold. As well msot skiers in race boots don't want to trade the fit and performance for ease of on and off. If you are already in boots that are easy to get on and off, why would you pay $700 for that same feature, and you wouldn't. Still I know many guys that reallly struglle with getting race boots off and they would more than likely look quite hard at the dodge boots for the improvement in ease.

I actually don't really struglle with on and off in my Raptor 130's. I have a new pair of Raptor 150's that I will ski on some days this year and these are real bears to get on and off.

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 02:39:19 pm »
This is a comment today from Harald Harb on Dodge boots. Still waiting to hear how they are for freeskiing:

"The latest on Dodge Boots.

We know that Warner Nicherson who has been flirting with making the US Ski Team for the past ten years has been skiing great on Dodge Boots this spring and summer. He podiumed in every US Nations event and beat Bode and Ligety and Neureither in FIS races, (all World Cup winners) in New Zealand.

Now Ace Tarbury, former Nor Am racer, from NH, who is not on the US Ski Team radar, is running times with Ligety and Miller. Dodge boots are a game changer. They are going to change the face of ski racing and skiing."

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2010, 11:29:59 am »
Here is an article I found on Dodge Boots.The fact that these boots weigh half as much as regular boots is huge. Think about doing hop turns and how much less energy they will take having to lift 10 lbs less on each hop. Think about skinning and carrying that much less weight up hill. If these ever go into mass prduction, they will be able to bring down the cost. Retail price for a full on WC boots is currently $950. It won't take a lot of volume for them to get to that price. My guess is that ultimately they can get it to $600-700 per boot. Assuming they can adjust the flex (which they say thay can with no problem), this will be a huge hit with the TGR crowd as well as the entire back and slack country crowd. My prediction is that in less than 5 years these (or copies of these) will be the biggest selling boots in the industry. If I were Lange or Head or Nordica I would buy these guys up quickly!!

Here is the aricle:

The End of Plastic Ski Boots?
When it comes to ski boots, David Dodge thinks carbon fiber, not plastic, is where it?s at. Find out more about his new product, Dodge Ski Boots, which are lightweight carbon boots that even ski racers are endorsing.
By Kirk Kardashian emailprintsharecomm entrelated tags: Gear carbon fiber ski boots Dodge Ski Boots Alpine High Performance Alpine Ultra-High Performance AT Boots
comments 1

Dodge Ski Boots
Enlarge PhotoBob Lange revolutionized the ski industry in 1959 with his plastic ski boot. Since then, every other piece of equipment has made great leaps in technology, materials, safety and performance. The modern ski boot, however, is still made the same way it was 50 years ago, by injecting melted plastic into a mold, cooling it, and sticking a liner inside. ?It hasn?t changed at all, really,? says David Dodge, a mechanical engineer who has worked for Rossignol, Burton, and Lange in his 30-plus-year career.

Dodge got tired of waiting for the ski boot to evolve, so he decided to force the issue. In December of 2008, he and his business partner Bill Doble founded Dodge Ski Boots in Doble?s three-bay garage in Essex Junction, Vermont. Their mission was to create a light, stiff, comfortable, carbon-fiber boot that?s easy to get into.

Making such a boot is harder than it sounds. A handful of companies have tried and failed. Dodge worked for a short time with Rossignol on the idea. They put together a prototype that Hermann Maier endorsed, but the boot wasn?t practical: It lasted a just a few days before falling apart, and it was nearly impossible to put on. Eventually, Rossignol stopped funding the project.

Dodge took what he learned from the experience and started experimenting. A year later, in December of 2009, the boot became available to the public, and it?s attracted the attention of three World Cup racers, who have been skiing on them in practice for a few months.

So far, the feedback?s been surprisingly good. ?Every test we?ve done where we?ve had a good comparison between a skier?s regular boots and our boots on a timed run on decent snow, they?ve been faster on our boots,? Dodge says.

What?s the difference? Two things: weight and stiffness. When you decrease the weight of a boot (Dodge?s is half the weight of a plastic boot) and increase its stiffness, it vibrates at such a high frequency that the skier can?t even notice it. That means more control and greater precision, Dodge says. And his boot-testers are bearing that out. One said that the boot allows him to set an edge angle at the beginning of the turn and not mess with it until the transition. ?I think you?re really onto something here,? the World Cup skier told Dodge. ?I feel like I don?t have to use as much knee in the turn. That should be a real advantage once I get used to it.?

The advantages should be the same for freeskiers, or anyone looking for a system that transfers their energy and position directly into the ski, with as little slop and deflection as possible. In addition, the substantial weight savings means that Dodge?s technology would be perfect for alpine-touring enthusiasts. High-level randonn?e racers use carbon-fiber boots today, but they lack the stiffness that most skiers want for the descent. Dodge is looking to partner with companies that have experience in those niches.

Whether plastic boots have met their demise is still an open question. Dodge is a little wary of being the instigator of the transformation, because others can come in and improve upon what you?ve done. ?Sometimes it?s better to be the second one on the scene,? he says.


Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2010, 11:33:42 am »
These are NOT easy on/off, one of the reason there is a hump back, room so the heel to go.

What is amazing is this boot is built in a barn in Vermont and not a $10M factory in Europe. PEr Jim Schaffner, these WILL be on a World Cup podium THIS season.

These boots are $1500.00, there are no pro deals, no freebies. Speed costs money..how fast do you want to go?

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2010, 12:01:21 pm »
On the easy on/off issue I guess the real question is versus what. My Raptor 150's are impossible to get on and off (130's much easier). So any increased ease of entry and exit will be huge. Obviously versus a 104 lasted 110 flex boot that you can slide your foot in and out of, maybe Dodge shows no improvement, but who can ski in those anyway!! My guess is that anyone skiing in plug boots now will show some improvement in ease of entry/exit.

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2010, 12:40:31 pm »
These are NOT easy on/off, one of the reason there is a hump back, room so the heel to go.

What is amazing is this boot is built in a barn in Vermont and not a $10M factory in Europe. PEr Jim Schaffner, these WILL be on a World Cup podium THIS season.

These boots are $1500.00, there are no pro deals, no freebies. Speed costs money..how fast do you want to go?

An interesting question might be, when they are on the World Cup podium this year, what will be the manufacturer's label on the outside.? Head or Lange??
It's like David Dodge said in John's article, sometimes it's better to be the second one on the scene.

It's really hard to be the innovator in an established market (ask Apple). Head/Lange (as an example) has the reputation, the distribution channel, restrictive sponsorship deals with top athletes, what are the odds of Dodge ski Boots competing at retail with the big guys.? The best they can hope for, probably, is to be acquired by someone (maybe Dalbello?).? More likely is that Head and Lange don't have their heads in the sand and already have their own carbon fibre boot development programs underway and will step into the market and capitalize on Dodge's success.

I don't remember who get's credit for triggering the shaped ski revolution, but I'm sure they didn't make as much money off of it as K2/Atomic/Salomon/Rossignol?

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 12:42:40 pm by jim-ratliff »
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2010, 12:42:22 pm »
There is an old marking adage... "The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese"

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2010, 12:48:42 pm »
There is an old marking adage... "The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese"

I've heard the same analogy used relative to marketing!!  ;D ::)
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2010, 12:53:11 pm »
If I were Dodge, I might be talking real seriously to K2 (they don't own a boot company yet, do they) about them buying the company as a springboard into the boot business -- about the only aspect of skiing that K2 isn't iin?? Leverage their name and their distribution channel and their chinese labor connections and their production engineering to "revolutionize" the ski boot world.? Especially if there are any patents Dodge has or could create that would slow the entrance of the others.

Can anyone say "rear entry" carbon fibre boots for the masses??
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2010, 01:24:05 pm »
Funny, I think Stephen Drake at DPS credits himself and the guy at Goode as the guys that invented reverse camber skis (with an assist from Shane McConkey). Without some sort of patent protection, you have seen what has happened. Every major ski compnay now has a complete line of rockered, early rise skis and they are not paying any royalties to Stephen Drake. And as far as innovation goes whether you like them or not, thiis is major with regard to the number of rocker skis sold.

I think you guys are right, it's unclear how much of the wave Dodge will be able to capture. They are certainly first. In two years they may not be best, and for sure the big guys will lead the charge in driving down manufacturing cost. All of this is good for us and bad for Dodge. 

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2010, 07:01:16 pm »
If I were Dodge, I might be talking real seriously to K2 (they don't own a boot company yet, do they) about them buying the company as a springboard into the boot business -- about the only aspect of skiing that K2 isn't iin?? Leverage their name and their distribution channel and their chinese labor connections and their production engineering to "revolutionize" the ski boot world.? Especially if there are any patents Dodge has or could create that would slow the entrance of the others.

Can anyone say "rear entry" carbon fibre boots for the masses??

Please tell me you aren't serious.

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2010, 07:32:04 pm »
Phil:

Depends on what I wanted to do with my life, but yes!!? Not serious about it being K2 and not knowledgeable to know where to focus the idea, but I don't believe they can build a profitable business making race boots in the garage, and I doubt they have the production expertise to compete with the established boot manufacturers.? They have a window (maybe less than 2 years) before the second mouse gets the cheese???

I agree with you that they have an industry changing idea -- but Henry Ford proved that building a better mousetrap doesn't cause them to beat a path to your door unless you have a patent or something to stop others from building a similar mousetrap more efficiently.? And as you said about Ski Logik and small ski builders in general, in addition to product you have to have marketing and channel and programs to support the channel.? You either spend a lot of time building that or team with someone that has the capabilities that you need and needs the product/ideas that you have.

As far as rear entry boots -- I never owned a pair so I don't really know what the major shortcomings of them were.? I've heard they were very easy entry/exit but a lack of control/flex stiffness.

But new materials allow you to do things that old materials prhibited or couldn't do well, so you never know. I? see how their heel channel is really good "out of the box" thinking and there could be more of that as far as the overall nature of how you put on and use a ski boot.

I was serious in thinking that if a pair winds up on the WC podium theres is a good chance that the name and colors on the outside won't be Dodge Boots.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 08:13:17 pm by jim-ratliff »
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2010, 08:57:51 pm »
Evidentlly they have offered their technology to the majors now for almost 2 years with no takers. That will change when someone Podiums in a WC race these.

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2010, 09:04:51 pm »
K2 is not the company that will get involved with Dodge. One of the major boot companies will come in and add them to their race line. They will be on the podium with either the Dodge logo or the Dodge logo covered up. A buy out cannot happen that fast. There are top level racers that are under big contracts with testing the ?boot and skiing faster in it than their own boots. Should be interesting.

Rear Entry boots are dead and gone. IF and IF they come back it will be Salomon resurrecting the SX series at a price point under $500.00. Carbon Fibre cannot be had in that price point. With overlaps at the point where we can have both comfort AND performance, a high end RE boot has no market.

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2010, 08:41:47 am »
Phil:

How labor intensive is boot manufacturering (and liner manufacturing) and are any of the major boot brands currently being manufactured in China?

My reference to K2 was twofold: 1. They are in almost all parts of the ski business except boots, so 2) they have a significant distribution channel set up and operating well and 3) they led the initial charge into low-cost Chinese manufacturing.

My biggest discomfort with boots is how heavy they are; I would probably pay $200 more for a boot with similar performance that weighed a pound or two less each, but wouldn't pay double the price.

Your point about Dodge getting picked up by a major boot brand is very valid, but but it's hard to believe that they wouldn't then try to leverage that investment into some level of high end production boot.
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2010, 10:20:48 am »
Well one thing is for sure, Race Boots for WC racers is a losing proposition. They give away the boots for free, they spend a hige amount of time and money redesigning the boots for the racers and I really don't know how profitable their race boot sales are for the big name companies. Unless someone can take the dodge design and mass produce it and sell it to non WC racers it is not an interesting proposition (of course everyone that even casually races will want them if they are substantially improving times which appears to be the case). Having said that, I think ultimatley carbon fiber is the wave of the future for some level of the boot market, but that is definitely years away.

I have to agree with Phil on K2. I think this is the last place that would look to play. They are increasingly a pure recreational ski company. They want to be affiliated with the next generation skier and boarder. They left the WC several years ago, and I doubt they are ever coming back. WC skiers have lost their appeal with the young skier today. It's all about hucking and doing flips today, not about using your edges.

I know little about rear entry boots, but I think you are right about one thing Jim, that CF may produce some form of recrational boot that is lighter and better for the masses. I guess cost is the real question here. They obviously can make cheap plastic boots that sell for $550 with great margin in it for the boot co's. It's unclear if you ever get there with CF. But no one would have bet that CF would dominate the road bike market so fast. And there are now qaulity frames in the $1000 range. This has taken around 15 years since the intro of the first CF frames. I know very few recerational cyclist that when looking at new bikes are not buying CF.
My buddy Thor emailed Jim Schaffner about the Dodge boot. Jim invited Thor to come up and demo them. As soon as there is snow we will have another opinion on these.

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2010, 09:05:47 am »
I spoke at length yesterday with Jim Schaffner (one of 3or 4 authorized dealers ) on the Dodge Boot. Here are a few things that I had not heard before. On tests with high level juniors and with WC level racers, skiing the same course with the Dodge boot and with their current set up (plastic) almost everyone was seeing .5-1 second improvements in time!! A half second is huge in a WC race, a full second is a game changer!! Jim said that not only was there less ski displacement (skis staying on the snow more consistently than with plastic boots) but skiers were able to carve tighter arcs and take much tighter lines. The CF is just that much more damp and clearly it is giving greater leverage to carve tighter arcs. Jim repeated what he has said before and Harald Harb has echoed, you will see this boot shortly on a WC podium. As well it is likley that in 5 years the entire WC circuit will be racing in these. Again the question everyone asks is who will be the first of the major players to buy this company. As of yet, no one has come close to stepping up.

Lastly, I asked Jim about this as a boot for freeskiing. He said on groomers doing high edge angle turns it would be awesome and a joy to ski. He is not sure that this boot will ski off piste well. He says it is just totally stiff, with absolutely no give. Because of this it may just be a bear on anything other than hard grooomed conditions.

He is going to have a demo boot in each size in a month or two. I am going to head up with Thor Kallreud and try them for a day. Harald Harb may also have a pair to try while I am out in Colorado. Will give a full report after I try them.

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2010, 11:50:48 am »
Here is commentary from a skier that just got the dodge boots fitted by Harald Harb. This was posted on the PMTS forum. He clearly thinks these are the greatest boots ever. I am anxious to try these!!

I just got back from skiing the Dodge boot. I'll post a more detailed report later when I have more time, but let me just say that whatever hype you may have heard about these boots is real. These boots are orders of magnitude better than my Head Raptor 130 RDs to the extent that I have no problem in suggesting that the Dodge boot is simply in a league of its own. The level of responsiveness and edge-hold is unparalleled (in fact, its unheard of). I don't care who you are, if you have even the slightest understanding of how to tip your skis, you should be in these boots. They will take your skiing to a whole new level. For me it was like strapping a couple of Porsche 911's to my feet.

Quick note to Harald, Chris & Diana. The boots fit great. The only issue I had was some minor discomfort in the right shin. Tried adjusting the tongue, but that didn't solve the problem. I think there is a good chance that the pain will go away once the Booster strap gets mounted. Other than that, my intial impression was that my left boot was too soft. I had the same impression in my Heads, but the difference between left and right was fairly minor. The Dodges are aggressive enough that I notice a fairly big difference between the two sides. I think I"ll probably want to come out by 1/2 a degree. Other than those two minor things, the setup feels really, really good. Thanks!

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2010, 12:42:21 pm »

So John, is there a pair in your future (this year?)?
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2010, 01:18:03 pm »
Based upon what he is saying it sure sounds like there should be. Having said that, dialing in boots with fit and alignment/canting is work. I don't know if I have the energy to make that happen this year. The money I am fine with spending. I will galdly spend $1500 for a vastly superior product if I believe that to be the case. I'll know for suer when I demo these next weekend. The early commentary is pushing me hard in that direction.

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2010, 03:10:41 pm »
Based upon what he is saying it sure sounds like there should be. Having said that, dialing in boots with fit and alignment/canting is work. I don't know if I have the energy to make that happen this year. The money I am fine with spending. I will galdly spend $1500 for a vastly superior product if I believe that to be the case. I'll know for suer when I demo these next weekend. The early commentary is pushing me hard in that direction.

But the good news is that they already understand a lot about your alignment and are now getting experience with the Dodges in the real world.? And b'sides, you don't have to get them completely dialed in any faster than you want or have energy.? Getting them 97% there might not be that challenging.

Would you Are you going to have them done by Harald or Jim?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 06:52:57 pm by jim-ratliff »
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2010, 03:49:48 pm »
Good question. Because my alignment is such a big issue (broken ankle that is set wrong, off by 13 degrees), I generally start with Harald. When I bought the Raptor 150's I already knew the last and stance from my 130's so it was real easy. I had Jim do all the fit work and Harald will put the alignment shims on next weekend. Because this is a brand new boot to my foot and because the alignment could be so much different and because Harald knows my skiing better than I know it, it makes more sense to work with him than Jim. As well, I will be there in 8 days. It is also hard to beat the on snow alignemt assessment that Harald does.. To truly dial in alignment the last final adjustmenst have to done on snow. If I need to do more work on fit I can drive up and see Jim.

See what you've done, you've got me owning the boot already!!

In my mind, I am going to try them and objectively observe the result. If this difference is startling, I WILL come home with a pair.

midwif

  • Global Moderator
  • 1000 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 1389
  • Location: New York City
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2010, 06:24:09 pm »
All I can say is "SH*T!" ;)

(maybe) The next new, big innovation in skiing that I will lust for!

AND, like you JBotti, I have that low volume, narrow foot.

Gnashing of teeth.



Okay, not really. Not even CONSIDERING the price of these babies, but am interested in your feedback.
I think this is the beginning of a new evolution  in ski boots.
Who knows what will be available in 2-4 years from now?

Lighter, more responsive boots for those who really value those things. (admittedly not the majority).

 Very interesting conversation guys.
Thank you.
"Play it Sam"

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2010, 06:56:21 pm »
Aaaahhhh.? So I have an ultimate solution.? Suspend the emotional investment in getting the Raptor 150's dialed in and commence same with Dodge's.

One high-end boot for another, and you still have the Raptor 130's to fall back to??? ?>:D >:D

By the way, what topsheet are you going to get with your Ullr's Chariots??? ?;D
 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 11:02:05 pm by jim-ratliff »
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

ToddW

  • 4-6 Year Member
  • 200 Posts
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
  • Location: Westchester, NY
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2010, 07:38:43 pm »
More info from HSS.  The Dodge is relatively narrow through the calf area.  If, like me, you have large calves or they insert lower, these may not be the boot for you.

midwif

  • Global Moderator
  • 1000 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 1389
  • Location: New York City
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2010, 11:35:30 pm »
More info from HSS.? The Dodge is relatively narrow through the calf area.? If, like me, you have large calves or they insert lower, these may not be the boot for you.

SH*T!!!

This is (almost) killing me.
STOP writing about how this boot is MADE for my foot!!

Oh, wait, you're talking about men's legs. Whew.

Seriously, I think that a few years down the road, these boots will be available and maybe, just maybe, a bit less expensive and with more time in development.
Carbon fiber boots will never be cheap though.
The early reports from the PMTS forum are very interesting. And Todd, sorry to hear they are not right for you. Just wait, they'll expand their repertoire of sizes.
There have to be some big, beefily calved guys on the racing circuits who will need these boots too.
"Play it Sam"

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2010, 03:38:54 pm »
Not to tease, but I did ski the Dodge boot and I own a pair. I am very tight for time and I will come back with a review later today. I iwll say quickly that this is a comlpicated fit and set up and this boot is not going to be for everyone because of this and other reasons. If you go for a performance fit it is by far the hardest and most painful boot I have ever put on.

Lynn, don't feel bad. It is very early with CF boots. Lots of kinks to work out. This is really only for crazy early adopters (I guess I qualify) and my view on the boots is very incomplete because I have so many canting and set up issues that we could not completely fix while I was out there. More later.

Gary

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2590
  • Location: Rochester, NY
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2010, 01:19:03 pm »
Well...they could always make for great conversation piece on the coffee table...

JB...I'm guessing they really sparked a fire if you bought them....I do understand fit issues cause in my past it sometimes takes 1 or 2 seasons to work out any bugs, kinks or fine tuning. Sounds like you've got you hands full getting them dialed in.

Look forward to your comments.

G

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2010, 03:04:27 pm »
Here are some observations about the boots. First off I think almost everyone will be going down a size in these. I ski the Heads in the 27 size which is a 313mm boot sole length. Doing a shell fit in the dodge, my foot pretty much exactly fit lengthwise in the Dodge 26 which is a 305mm boot sole length. Because the CF is so thin (vs thick plastic on a traditional plug boot) a 305mm boot sole lngth has about the same amount of space inside as does the 313mm BSL with thick plastic. The 8mm difference is the width of the plastic both front and back. Being able to ski a smaller BSL is always considered an advantage and does come with better quickness, better leverage and therfore better performance. The downside in just about filling up the entire boot lengthwise is that there was not a lot of room left to get into the boot. Harald did show me the technique for getting into the boot, but the CF is real stiff and it is really hard to pull the bear claw apart to makes some extra space to get the foot in. Mine is not the most flexible foot and one with better flexibility (like Diana's or Harald's) is easier to get in. Definitely one of the harder boots to get into that I have ever tried.

I did not love the stock liner and I was surprised that my Nordica Foam liner fit in. I found this to be a major improvement and after sitting in them for 5-10 minutes or so, they were actually quite comfortable. I would say that the last in the boot is around 98mm which is about where I have no hot spots. I skied the boot for about two hours with no pain or hot spots and we had done no punching or grinding in the boot (or whatever you would do in place of this with CF). I am a natural B width and on one foot I have a bone protruding which makes that foot almost a C width, but both feet are low volume.

As for stiffness, it is actually pretty easy to regualte the flex of the boots with the buckles. You can get a real stiff feel by tightening the buckles and a much less stiff fell by leaving the buckles with much less tension. I did not ski the boot off piste, but my sense is that it will ski just fime there especially if you loosen buckle tension. When you do come up upon the front of the boot, there is very little give. It is solid and it stays that way in all temps. I would say that when pressing against the front of the boot it is no stiffer than my 130 boots on a cold day (very little give in either boot) amd much stiffer than my 130's on a warm day. Again I will say thet boot does not ski ultra stiff when the buckles have less tension.

I think ultimately I will have a foam liner done specifically for these boots. I think harald is heading in the same direction. With my current foam liners I had a little more room in and around the ankle and heel than I want and I think a foam liner foamed in these boots would take up that space.

We decided to go out with canting shims taped to the bottom and it seemed prudent to go wth less canting than what is on my current set up. Well without the canting dailed in I literally could hardly ski!! I could not get the tips to bite or the ski to bend and on every edge change it seemed like I was waiting a full second or longer for the edges to engage. Not fun. Actually quite scary on steep terrain!! I also use a lot of forward lean in my set up and that was also absent from the way we originally set up the Dodge Boots. We played with the set up on the hill but it was clear after a couple of hours that this was going to be a bigger project and that we needed sole plates to get it where it needed to be.

I did have a few a wow moments but I was fighting the set up so much that I never was able to open things up.

I will say that for the right skier, one who does not need much flex in a boot, my guess is that these boots will ski off piste just fine, and may also be an improvement over plastic boots because of the big weight difference. again they never felt crazy stiff or unforgiving in any way.

Looking forwrard to skiing them when we dial in the set up. I will post my thoughts when we get there.

Gary

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2590
  • Location: Rochester, NY
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2010, 09:14:52 am »
Thanks for the candid report JB....really very informative.

Like Rocker to skis...it will be interesting to see how this new technology works it's way into main stream ski boots!

Now....what to do with your other boots?

It would appear from the sounds of things, you couldn't make a performance comparision with your current boots because the DC's were not dialed in for you....

Look forward to hear that comparison once the "magic" is there!

Best, G

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2010, 10:05:15 am »
Yeah, right now I would not trade my Raptor 130's for anything. They are dialed in and awesome. The hope is that the Dodge's get there and beyond!! Time will tell. JB.

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2010, 11:10:16 am »
so do how do you rate them?  not sure if you were blown away by them but they sound revolutionary.  did hh fit or are you taking to schaftner?

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2010, 04:38:42 pm »
Harald fit me and he is doing all the alignment work. I should have them in a week or so. Can't really rate them unti the set up gets dialed in.

pbr

  • Guest
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2011, 03:27:22 pm »
Any one try the Apex boots yet/

midwif

  • Global Moderator
  • 1000 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 1389
  • Location: New York City
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2011, 03:43:58 pm »
I don't think anyone on this board who is a regular has tried the Apex boot.

There have been good reports on the Dodge boot. Super light, responsive.
I guess it depends on what kind of a skier you are.

Epicski might have more feedback on the Apex. Thousands of members as compared to here.

let us know what you decide and what worked for you.

L.
"Play it Sam"

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Dodge Carbon Fiber uber boot
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2011, 10:36:58 pm »
Bumped since there seems to be interest in continuing the discussion around Dodge Carbon Fiber boots.


Regards
Your kind and considerate moderator staff  ;)
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."