Author Topic: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!  (Read 1701 times)

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« on: September 06, 2010, 06:37:46 pm »
Peter just posted his skis of the year. The Chariot won overall ski of the year!! I guess we should all buy them now before they run out!!


Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 06:40:54 am »
have at it!? ?;D

I wish them much sucess and as always, I support the indies and small local business. Interesting reviews on FREESKIER mag. THey preferred the Howitzer  137-110-131


http://www.freeskier.com/buyersGuide/product.php?product_id=1278

I like those dims much better, A demo would be great just not thrilled with a 145-101 ski for variable off piste condition ski. I can see it for front side groomed or soft groomed but not sure of the "why" of the ski. Seems like a cool idea with limited range of application-- but I have been very wrong before and will be again!

« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 06:48:48 am by Ron »

LivingProof

  • Global Moderator
  • 400 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 892
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 08:11:51 am »
I have a very limited knowledge of Peter Kelty's reviews, and, am always somewhat cynical of "of the year" awards that make pronouncements in advance of distribution and real world experience.

What are some of his past "skis of the year" and your thoughts as to how his past predictions fared with the skiing public.




jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 08:17:26 am »
I do think that we have to consider Peter's bias here some. The last wide ski (it was certainly wide for back then) that Peter named ski of the year was the Head IM 88. Peter specifically cited the fact that this ski was at home off piste and in powder and at the same time a good skier could run a GS course on the skis. He has said something similar about the Chariot again citing it's ability to carve GS turns. It is failrly obvious from watching over the years that Peter likes skis that perform well on hard snow. His reviews of big mountain skis have lacked any real specificity (usually he just says great for Squaw, Jackson Snowbird, you know who you are). Using the IM 88 as an example because I still own a pair, it was in may ways a great ski for certain things. It will carve nice GS turns and it was a great crud busting ski. It was never wide enough for a true powder ski but in its time it wsn't far from the standard (back then 90-100mm was a podwer ski). It was however not a very versatile ski. It was very stiff, reasonably unforgiving especially in bumps and on groomed terrain it would carve only one turn shape (19m). The tips are so stiff that if you try to bend the ski to tighten the turn it really won't budge.

We will have to demo the Chariot. I have it set up for my trip to Col in early November. I think we all need to realize that Peter is giving this rating because the Chariot is in his opinion as close as it gets to a one ski quiver. Sounds great, may not be what I am looking for as I don't need a powder ski to be able to run GS. Love the tight turn radius. We will have to see if it can be my go to fersh snow ski.

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 08:38:59 am »
"all Mountain ski"=  good everywhere, great no where.... ;D

the old idea of a one quiver ski is pretty much a bad idea. 2 ski's is good, 3 would be awesome but not really pratical for the traveling skier for sure.

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2010, 09:07:45 am »
We are on the same page!!

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2010, 09:54:02 am »
I have a very limited knowledge of Peter Kelty's reviews, and, am always somewhat cynical of "of the year" awards that make pronouncements in advance of distribution and real world experience.

What are some of his past "skis of the year" and your thoughts as to how his past predictions fared with the skiing public.


Prior skis of the year (first column) and other notable selections

2010: Dynastar Sultan 85 and Fischer KOA 84? (Free Ride = Kastle MX108)
2009: All mtn carvers as a group   ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (All mountain cruising Dynastar Contact 4x4)
2008: Volkl Tigershark 10/12      (Skill Development = SuperShape Magnum)
2007: Head SuperShape
2006: Head iM88
2004 - Head iM75 (Gary owned? a pair).
2003 - Head iC160 (I owned a pair that I loved)(and Lynn did also). (and the K2 5500 was the value ski of the year)

Edited after Ron and John's responses.  I'm going to sit down tonight and copy more of Peter/s picks and we can see what we think.  I have been very rewarded a couple of times by selecting skis that he recommended as good for developing skills.  Never before considered an overall ski of the year for myself.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 01:33:01 pm by jim-ratliff »
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2010, 10:51:56 am »
interesting lineup.

Sultan 85 proved to be a very popular and strong ski for sure. 

Dynastar 4x4, hmm, all mountain carver?????    UBER heavy but I did like it. although I sold it after using one hour and bought the MX78's..

Tigershark,,,, flash- gone.....

venerable SS- great ski good choice.

108 for Freeride, I have to look at that one, I am hooked on kastle's for sure and I am looking forward to getting on the new 108 this season.

Still, from a very biased position, the Kastle 78 and 88 are still unbelievable ski's and I pretty much look at those two as the standards by which I judge other ski's.


jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2010, 12:10:31 pm »
He lost me with the Tigersharks. For me these were some of the worst skis ever made. Not only was the tip too stiff to bend but it was so stiff that it pushed you off of it and got you immediately in the back seat. The ones before that were all excellent skis and I actually owned every one of them. 

Will have to get on the Sultan 85's this year.

My guess is that will be the first here on the Chariots (even if Jim buys a pair before my Novemebr trip my guess is that he won't have it on snow before late November or early December). While I am at it, I think I will test drive the Howitzer as well. No tail rocker, early rise tip. Worth a shot.


Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2010, 01:30:59 pm »
Color me shocked. talk about a "Tin Cup" winner.

LivingProof

  • Global Moderator
  • 400 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 892
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2010, 03:24:25 pm »
I have a very limited knowledge of Peter Kelty's reviews, and, am always somewhat cynical of "of the year" awards that make pronouncements in advance of distribution and real world experience.

What are some of his past "skis of the year" and your thoughts as to how his past predictions fared with the skiing public.


Prior skis of the year (first column) and other notable selections

2010: Dynastar Sultan 85 and Fischer KOA 84? (Free Ride = Kastle MX108)
2009: All mtn carvers as a group   ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (All mountain cruising Dynastar Contact 4x4)
2008: Volkl Tigershark 10/12      (Skill Development = SuperShape Magnum)
2007: Head SuperShape
2006: Head iM88
2004 - Head iM75 (Gary owned? a pair).
2003 - Head iC160 (I owned a pair that I loved)(and Lynn did also). (and the K2 5500 was the value ski of the year)

Edited after Ron and John's responses.? I'm going to sit down tonight and copy more of Peter/s picks and we can see what we think.? I have been very rewarded a couple of times by selecting skis that he recommended as good for developing skills.? Never before considered an overall ski of the year for myself.

Jim,
Thanks for the research. The list stuns me. The first 4 years all Head skis?? Hmmm, is he really independent as he's covered almost the entire line? I ski the Supershape and liked the Magnum on a demo. My sense is that many have bought Head skis, few remain as very loyal customers outside of the narrow carvers. For sure, this confirms JB's thinking of a front side carver basis. My demo of the Dynastar 4x4 told me that it just was not a ski that fits what I wanted as a cruiser.

But calling the vague "All Mountain Carvers" group as ski-of-the-year is just not credible. Hell, it's almost a contradiction, and, I don't know what skis fall into this group. My guess would be a waist somewhere around 85 to 88?

I remember the Sultan 85 from last year. Never skied it, but, at Epic the buzz was pretty low key and nothing like what happened with Kastle MX series.


jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2010, 04:04:44 pm »
Mike:? Chill a bit.? Can you judge a book by reading the last pages?? I'm not trying to represent Peter (nor defend him).? You asked a question, I spent ten minutes looking up what was easy from the past few years.? On the pay site, he has ski reviews from as far back as 1999.? I assume that he didn't always have skis of the year.? Some years he just rated skis with gold stars or something to indicate the "better" skis.? I believe that he does come from a racing, coaching, and hard snow background (consistent with his age) and believes that narrower skis are better for learning edging skills.

Also, I didn't bother to include any of the write-ups about why he selected a particular ski. The Head iC160

Picking the "Ski of the Year" is no easy task. The overall quality of skis is high enough that almost any ski made today will outperform almost any ski made even as recently as four or five years ago, regardless of shape. The severe side cut found on even 74mm off-piste skis allows them to carve even better than old, narrow GS skis, a slalom with a tip of 110mm or more floats nearly as high as did early wide powder skis. In the end, such worthies as Volkl's T50 5-Star, Dynastar's Speed SX, the Rossi Bandit XX and Head's own iRace made way for the iC160 on the basis of versatility.

This ski can do it all; carve on the groomed, skid on the steeps, navigate reasonable bumps and even traverse deep stretches off the groomed. The iC160 may be the perfect "Swiss Army Knife" ski. It is a comfortable ride for everyone from high intermediate to less-than-demonic expert. It is quick, capable of rapid fire fall line turns, stable in arcs at speed and easy to maneuver at virtually any speed from almost stopped to 35mph.

Looking at this ski globally, and I must thank Harald for this point of view, the ic160 is beyond forgiving; it actually enhances technique and promotes carving skills, almost as though it were itself a kind of coaching machine. As Harald puts it, in his inimitable way, "The 160 pulls better skiing out of your body!"


His paragraph about the 2009 selection is below.? I assume the choice is his way of denoting a "watershed" chainge is ski sizes and abilities (and maybe a bit slow to admit that change).? As far as the Head skis, maybe that was a time when Head was "building" their reputation, because Peter is not very impressed with their current range of skis and decisions.? If anything, I believe that he may have a fondness for Dynastar.

In seasons past we have followed the traditional process of selecting one ski each per use category for unisex and female-specific Skis of the Year. Below, for example, is what could be the list this year?traditionally one would be overall Ski of the Year.

In a departure from tradition, however, this year's overall "ski" of the year is the All Mountain Carver. These are skis with waists between 74 and 80mm and turn radii between 12 and 17m. These are the most versatile skis made and we suggest that anyone who relies on a single pair of skis for all terrain and conditions consider one of these. For a more detailed discussion of this kind of ski, and why we chose it, please see About This Year's Ski of the Year, tab above.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 05:07:42 pm by jim-ratliff »
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2010, 04:18:21 pm »
Here is his disclaimer for the 2007 picks.? I bolded part of his paragraph, since its sort of pertinent to me and the UC.

For the record:

Harald (Harb), John (Clendenin) and I ski primarily on Head skis, although I do get to try dozens of skis from all brands during the course of a season. The point is that none of us is sponsored monetarily by Head. We ski Heads from preference, not because they compensate us. It's a matter of choice.

It should therefore be small surprise that 3 of our nine picks are Heads. Two are from Fischer and this short list also includes one model each from Elan, Nordica, Salomon and V?lkl. Where, we expect to be asked, are the Atomic's, K2's and Rossignol's?

The short answer is that because we depend on suppliers neither for ad revenue nor access to test skis, we have no need to "take care of everyone." We select Skis of the Year based on personal experience and real-life feedback from real skiers.

As with any review, this should be a guide and not the final word. Skiers who take anyone's word without trying before buying, do so at their own peril. That said, here are our choices for "best of the best" 2007.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 05:13:57 pm by jim-ratliff »
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2010, 04:25:46 pm »
So does the selection of Ullr's Chariot make it the best powder ski?? Absolutely not, and maybe not even as good as SkiLogik's Howitzer (as Ron said).
Does it make it the best carving ski?? No.
Does it make it the best ski for Mike or Ron or Jim or John?? No.

Does it mean that he was impressed by the amount of versatility they were able to design and build into a 100mm ski??? I think so.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 05:09:27 pm by jim-ratliff »
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2010, 05:15:09 pm »
I played with the Chariot at SIA..while the graphics and top skis were beautiful, the ski is no where near the substance of some of the better skis in that category. It is not 4/1 is it?

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2010, 08:12:08 pm »
I have no clue on the chariot, but I will demo it. I will say this, for years Peter has been amazingly spot on with his commentary on skis. I personally think that has changed some over the last 2-3 years. I think he is relying more on a larger group of testers and less on what he likes and less what Harald likes. For years you could buy skis that Peter rated highly with the green blue and black signs and this ski was pretty much guarenteed to be forgiving enough for an adanced intermediate and it would have plenty of performance for a high level skeir. In a word his reviews have been spot on and incredibly helpful to anyone that takes the time to truly undrstand what the symbols mean and what he is striving for with his reviews. Once you truly understand how he reviews and operates and what he knows you can buy skis just from his reviews and pretty much get what you expect (i think this has changed some again with the year that he named the Tigershark his ski of the year). If you look at his past skis of the year, the IC 160 (I still own mine) was one of the best skis ever made to learn how to carve on. The IM 75 was one of the first excellent all mountain skis that would carve awesome arcs. It was a great ski. The IM 88 was a great ski in its day and the head SS's are still the standard for non race slalom carvers.

In some wasy the ski universe is passing Peter by. All anyone and everyone is focused on is the next best powder ski with Rocker. Peter is a dinosaur, with racing carving background and his perrenial focus on skis that will perform at a high level on hard groomed snow. It is not his fault that most of the people buying skis today cannot lay down a clean set of arcs on hard snow. He has tried to adapt but his true colors and knowledge base is in skis that will carve well. In 20 years it may be lost art!!

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2010, 07:26:43 am »
are you speaking of yourself or Peter? nothing wrong with being a race/carve oriented skier at all. I don't think it makes him a dinosaur.


You should give more credit to the skill level of the slackcountry and Bc skier in powder and soft snow using modern ski technology and skill sets. I won't argue that many can't carve a turn but I would argue that most of those who do carve turns, don't know to ski trees or have the varied skills necessary to ski off-piste (off-piste does not mean side of trails or ungroomed snow) in varied terrain, most don't know how to read terrain properly understanding where snow deposts, settles; where it's safe and such. Most won't ski into rocky irregular terrain and ski it well, take small jumps, how to put on a ski in deep powder or steep lines.? I have a lot to learn and will continue to work on skills which will include taking an AVI 1 course this season (hopefully) and start on my skinning and hiking skills. Although I am not a park fan, I respect the skills that are required to ski off a 40' booter or slide down a rail or pipe.? Its all good and I respect those who prefer it but you should consider new skills, technologies and different ways to explore and ski the mountain. to many, great skiing encompass's mountaineering skills including how to navigate and read the mountain to find the goods. In many ways a great skiier may not have perfect form but can ski any terrain in control with confidence and speed. If a rockered ski helps them accomplish this, so be it.? If we could all ski 60-80 days we could all have much greater skills but the reality is that the average skier is still skiing on a groomed run 7-9 days per season.?

I have been finding more pleasure in finding quiet areas in the slack country or BC (like in Chile) where it may take a mix of walking, skinning or traversing to. The complete "emptyness" of skiing down a tree'd area or into a untracked meadow is what it's about to me. That's my skiing.? I respect the skils of a racer or that someone may like groomed skiiing and I understand that there are specific needs to that kind of skiing, I don't trash it or consider it inferior. I am not defined by skiing.? ? ?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 07:29:41 am by Ron »

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2010, 07:45:29 am »
I just re-read my post. I don't see where I am trashing anyone. What I said is that the industry has changed and that what most skiers care about is skiing powder wth rockered skis and that most skiers can't carve arcs. I think you could have said that most skiers can't carve arcs ten years ago and it would still have been true. My only point is that carving is no lonegr a focus area for most skiers. I don't think I put a value judgement on it. It's niether good or bad, it just is.

As for racers and their skills, I disgree that they can't ski off piste. Go look at Darren Rahlves free ski. In fact most of the best extreme skiers are all ex racers. Racing will not teach you how to do flips in the air, everything else that one needs off piste and in extreme terrain these guys have in spades. As well, the really good skiers that I know that can arcr rocking turns also ski off piste quite well. My good friend Thor Kallerud skis off pste maybe once a year, but he slays bumps and extreme terrain because his balance is always perfect and he uses his edges to perfection all the time.

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2010, 07:58:54 am »
if you weren't looking as this kind of skiing be beneath carving, you wouldn't have said "its not his (peters) fault", by stating this, you have said its the fault of others, which in this case is people who ski on rockered powder skis and dont value carving skills.  Its OK. you have worked very hard on the skills you value and are most drawn to.  AS far as racers go, darren ralves is a bit of strecth eh? He is in the elite of elite, there are most likely no sports he could not master easily.  Balance is key and is a trait found in all atheletes, its not a skill set reserved for any speciific sport.  BTW- I don't consider bumps off-piste skiing but they do require a great degree of skill.  If I took thor into the backcountry and only let him use his edges, he might not make it out..... if you can't use your poles for offensive, defensive or bracing you are in big trouble.  again, I am sure Thor is a fantastic skier who is extremly talented who could adapt his skill sets for that kind of skiing.

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2010, 08:02:30 am »
I happened to stumble across the movie about Kye Peterson where Glen Plake and some others took him under their wings and helped him grow to the point that he could ski the same slope that his father (Trevor Peterson) died on. ?Until I saw that movie, I didn't realize how much mountaineering was part of their "bag of tools" to include reading the snow and the snow pack, where to traverse, where to rope up, where to belay each other while starting down, etc.

"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2010, 08:09:34 am »
I have no clue on the chariot, but I will demo it. I will say this, for years Peter has been amazingly spot on with his commentary on skis. I personally think that has changed some over the last 2-3 years. I think he is relying more on a larger group of testers and less on what he likes and less what Harald likes. For years you could buy skis that Peter rated highly with the green blue and black signs and this ski was pretty much guarenteed to be forgiving enough for an adanced intermediate and it would have plenty of performance for a high level skeir. In a word his reviews have been spot on and incredibly helpful to anyone that takes the time to truly undrstand what the symbols mean and what he is striving for with his reviews. Once you truly understand how he reviews and operates and what he knows you can buy skis just from his reviews and pretty much get what you expect (i think this has changed some again with the year that he named the Tigershark his ski of the year). If you look at his past skis of the year, the IC 160 (I still own mine) was one of the best skis ever made to learn how to carve on. The IM 75 was one of the first excellent all mountain skis that would carve awesome arcs. It was a great ski. The IM 88 was a great ski in its day and the head SS's are still the standard for non race slalom carvers.

John: I would like to say well done on this post. Exactly to the point. I have found his reviews very reliable for my use, even those times when I disregarded his review and took a while to find out I was wrong (Head iM77).  However, I don't believe that carving will ever become a "lost art" as long as there are racers.  Some poeple race road bikes, some people race mountain bikes, some just ride one or the other for recreation, and some are somewhere between casual recreation and total commitment.  I think skiing is the same.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 08:18:15 am by jim-ratliff »
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2010, 08:24:36 am »
Ron, what I meant by saying "it's not Peters fault" is that his reveiws have become less relevant because the focus of skiers and the industry have moved elsewhere. Again there is no value judgement here except in youir mind.

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2010, 08:36:51 am »
Jim, I own a copy of The Edge of Never. I think this is one of the best ski/mountaineering movies ever made. It is a very powerful and touching movie with some great shots of Chamonix and some hellacious couloirs that are being skied. For those that haven't seen it, iit's good one to put on the netflix list as you get yourself psyched for ski season.

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2010, 08:46:26 am »
I think there is some miscommunication here. Change the term "carving ski" to "on piste" or "a ski with hard snow capacity" and see where the conversation goes.

 IMHO a ski that is going to win "Ski of the year" has to excel (or be at the top) in a multitude of categories and could be applicable as a "one ski quiver". A ski like the Chariot could win a segment like "specialty" or "Boutique" ski of the year. but overall? No way.

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2010, 09:20:00 am »
IMHO a ski that is going to win "Ski of the year" has to excel (or be at the top) in a multitude of categories and could be applicable as a "one ski quiver". A ski like the Chariot could win a segment like "specialty" or "Boutique" ski of the year. but overall? No way.
Phil: Is is possible for a ski to be at the top in a multitude of categories and for a wide variety of skiers?? Or by the very nature of the compromises involved, will any ski designed to be versatile be very good in multiple categories but never excel.? Is is possible for a car to excel on the race track and still haul the kids to soccer practice for a wide variety of drivers.? I just noted in his introductory paragraph and underlined the word handles, as opposed to excelled.? I think the Ullr's Chariot excels in only one thing, and that is versatility with regards to ski terrain and to type of skier that can use the ski.

If not the most versatile ski we have ever tested, it is certainly in the top ten. This may be the elusive "universal" ski. The ski handles deep snow, crud, chop, hard snow, speed and reasonable bumps with ease; always reliable, never unpredictable or difficult to handle.

He does list his selection of skis that excel in certain areas (Line Blend and Atomic Century for Freeride, for example), (Fischer Progressor 10+ and K2 Burnin Luv for Frontside Technical), (Kastle LX72 and Rossignol Attraxion for Groomer Cruiser), (Kastle RX12 for GS Race Carver)


Phil you are very knowledgeable and I'm curious, unrelated to all of this discussion:
1.  What woould be your "ski of the year" selection based on your criteria as listed above. ??
2. What would be your 1-ski quiver recommendation for me for skiing in Utah and Colorado?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:40:10 am by jim-ratliff »
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2010, 09:47:07 am »
Jim,

Add to that..for universal conditions and terrain. I cannot see the Chariot excelling under his parameters as an eastern ski. In playing with the ski at the ski show, I can get a pretty good idea how a ski will react on snow and where it would be good. I think it is ironic that Realskiers does a vast amount of testing that will provide hard numbers then the winners listed are subjective? Example, IIRC, last year the FX84 was the first ski ever to get 5 stars in EVERY category, yet didn't win ski of the year?

If there was only ONE ski that I could ski for the whole season. East/West/Soft/Hard. Without thinking would be the MX88, now it is not an inexpensive ski, but it is worth it. If it came down to budget and staying within MAP parameters (not leftovers or pro deals ect). Blizzard 8.7. But an argument could be made for another dozen skis and all would be accurate. Personally, If I was King of the "Ski Review world" I would do things differently. No, I am not going to share my ideas..at this point.

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2010, 10:26:33 am »
interestingly- the mx88 was also given a perfect 5 score.....  its my pick, hands down as the closest thing to a perfect "all mountain" ski whatever that is...... 

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2010, 10:29:34 am »

MX88 was 7 out of 8 5's with a 4, Phil is right that the FX84 was all 5's.

But as a family, Kastle has more 5's per ski than any other brand.  A universally high-rated ski.
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2010, 10:52:50 am »

MX88 was 7 out of 8 5's with a 4, Phil is right that the FX84 was all 5's.

But as a family, Kastle has more 5's per ski than any other brand.? A universally high-rated ski.

Again with results like that, why aren't these skis winners? Why bother posting numbers if the results are subjective.  ??? ::)

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2010, 12:06:43 pm »

Kastle has had 4 "selections" in the last three years.

However, it seems that he likes the Contact 4x4 better than the MX88, even though "the numbers" are lower.  ;D ;D ;D

Thankfully Dynastar hasn't "fixed" what still ranks as one of the most versatile high end skis ever made. In fact, one of our top skiers says, "This is the best 1-ski-quiver made. Enough said"
Other, more specific comments include: "Damp yet lively, smooth yet quick, a solid high level carver capable of performance virtually anywhere in any conditions."
Perennial contender for Ski of the Year, including this year.

"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2010, 12:27:35 pm »
2 completely different skis.

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2010, 01:08:23 pm »
To be fair to Peter he says every year that his skis of the year ARE his subjective picks. If you want to buy the highest rated skis it is easy to do. With his site you actually get two things, rankings or scores (which by the way are totally subjective as well) and Peter's picks. I also think as I said last year that the fact that Kastle is an expensive ski not in wide dsitribution had to account for some of the reason that he chose the Sultan 85 over the FX 84. I have yet to ski the Sultan, but IMO the FX 84 did not deserve anywhere near all 5's. It's a nice ski, quite versatile but by design it does not hook up well or quickly when put on edge on harder snow. It is a very forgiving ski and a super ski for what is designed, which is to be used mainly off piste in the back country. My sense is that both the MX 78 and the MX 88 blow it away but I have yet to ski either. Maybe we can take both out one day at Squaw this year Phil (assuming Start Haus carries both)!! I am still working on getting the Kastle rep to come to Montana so that I can demo them.

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2010, 01:53:38 pm »
2 completely different skis.

But there are only 6 categories (this year).  1. freeride  2. all mountain carver 3. big mountain carver 4. frontside technical 5. groomer cruiser 6. super carver
Interesting that there is no category for the best powder ski, and even his big mountain category includes the word carver (per John's point earlier in the day)

But that is a big problem with the concept of having skis of the year, defining reasonable categories.
And it would make sense to me that an overall ski of the year may still not be the best in any particular category.
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2010, 03:14:26 pm »

Kastle has had 4 "selections" in the last three years.

However, it seems that he likes the Contact 4x4 better than the MX88, even though "the numbers" are lower.? ;D ;D ;D

Thankfully Dynastar hasn't "fixed" what still ranks as one of the most versatile high end skis ever made. In fact, one of our top skiers says, "This is the best 1-ski-quiver made. Enough said"
Other, more specific comments include: "Damp yet lively, smooth yet quick, a solid high level carver capable of performance virtually anywhere in any conditions."
Perennial contender for Ski of the Year, including this year.


So..don't confuse him with facts then.  ::)

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2010, 03:23:22 pm »
 ;D ;D ;D  Numbers aren't facts.  Numbers are what statisticians use to make conclusions sound like they are based on facts.

Seriously, though, the numbers represent an aspect of a skis performance.  How much does a Clean Carve value of 5 contribute to a Powder or Freeride ski?
What about a Rebound value of 5, or a lightness value of 5.  For a crud ski, you may not want a light feel.
Which of Peter's rating numbers tells you how effective the skis flex or rocker is inestablish a smooth float through cut up snow.
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2010, 04:51:15 pm »
;D ;D ;D? Numbers aren't facts.? Numbers are what statisticians use to make conclusions sound like they are based on facts.

Seriously, though, the numbers represent an aspect of a skis performance.? How much does a Clean Carve value of 5 contribute to a Powder or Freeride ski?
What about a Rebound value of 5, or a lightness value of 5.? For a crud ski, you may not want a light feel.
Which of Peter's rating numbers tells you how effective the skis flex or rocker is inestablish a smooth float through cut up snow.

So, a ski that gets all top possible scores in EVERY category... isn't always the winner? I guess it didn't do as well in the swimsuit competition.

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2010, 05:01:41 pm »
Phil you do reaize that the numbers are what testers are writing down? The numbers are totally subsjective as well. As well he puts up the big disclaimer that the skis of the year are subjective and NOT the highest scoring ski.

I think we all could think of things that we might do better or different if we were running Peter's site. Having said that another superior alternative does not exist. Yes demoing skis is the best but where else can you get a reasonably consistent viewpoint on a large number of skis. And whether you like his criteria and or his approcah in reviewing skis, he has been quite consitent with what he finds and highlights as great skis (admitting his weakness in big mountain powder skis). Hey for $20 a year I still find it to be of way more value than any reviews  I read elsewhere. The ski mags are a complete joke!!

midwif

  • Global Moderator
  • 1000 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 1389
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2010, 05:42:38 pm »
The ski mags are a complete joke!!

Amen to that!
And yes, for $20  Realskiers reviiews are a  wonderful resource, especially if you are looking for older models.

I am interested in a narrower waisted ski to replace my Every Thangs (shudder, what a horrible name).
(Bucking the wide ski trend. Its fun to be contrary at times.)
Good skis, but too much cross over with my Maunga's (aka early Fischer Zeal version).
I will keep those for those days with some decent powder, but since I am still primarily an East Coast skier,
would like a good carving ski.
I want to continue working on my carving skills. I believe those are the base from which other skills blossom, even bumps.

And JBotti, I too still have my iC160's. Skied them one day this year when I lent my sister my ET's.
Still a good ski. Don't like the chatter  they develop at higher speeds though.

Peter is pretty up front about how the reviews are arrived at and the difference between those and "Picks of the year".
Might be useful for him to actually call it "Peter's Choice" or other eponymous title.
L.

L.
"Play it Sam"

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2010, 09:16:12 pm »
Phil you do reaize that the numbers are what testers are writing down? The numbers are totally subsjective as well. As well he puts up the big disclaimer that the skis of the year are subjective and NOT the highest scoring ski.

I think we all could think of things that we might do better or different if we were running Peter's site. Having said that another superior alternative does not exist. Yes demoing skis is the best but where else can you get a reasonably consistent viewpoint on a large number of skis. And whether you like his criteria and or his approcah in reviewing skis, he has been quite consitent with what he finds and highlights as great skis (admitting his weakness in big mountain powder skis). Hey for $20 a year I still find it to be of way more value than any reviews? I read elsewhere. The ski mags are a complete joke!!

I find it funny that one persons subjectivity outweighs a group of tester...seriously quality testers. I personally have a problem with number testing anyway. Again, I won't get into what a review SHOULD be..until I can produce it.  ;D

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2010, 09:39:01 pm »
Hey Phil we are all ears. Not sure there is way to do it without the subjective input of testers. I think if you look at anyone that does a good job with reviews (including Peter and Sierra Jim in your shop) they all try to look at the ski from a prerpective other than their own and imagine and or sense what this ski would be like for someone with less skill, or with other or differnt skills than they have. This as we all know is impossible for anyone to truly know, but good reviewers that are trying to help people select good skis and the right skis find a way to imagine this and communicate it. I think ski reviewing is an art and not a science. Few have matesred the art. Peter and Sierra Jim do as good a job as anyone IMO.

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2010, 07:19:01 am »
using this ski evaluation only there should be:

1-Peters pick
2- as rated by reviewers picks- based on scores and/or just based on a "give me your favorite ski" result.

As a person who owns a survey service and designs surveryso on my own survey site, I have a little insight on these things..... still it's Peters site and he can do what he wants. If someone else has the creativity and vision to build a better mouse trap, with more statistical data and better ways to communicate the true appearance and performance characteristics to the consumer......... 

LivingProof

  • Global Moderator
  • 400 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 892
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2010, 07:54:32 am »
Mike:? Chill a bit.? Can you judge a book by reading the last pages??


Yes, your honor, I plead guilty to coming to a conclusion without all the facts. One of these days, I'll learn to keep my big mouth, and cynical writing style, shut in areas of ski reviews.  ;D

Interesting thread about ski reviews and Peter's in particular. As he and I are both carvers, we like the same style skis. To revisit his "Skis of the Year", I did not know his selections were more of a personal preference. My thoughts are that he is staking his own thinking and needs, apart from what the review process turns out. And that's o.k. as long as the distinction is clear. As individuals, we like what we like.

In further thinking about a review of all past "skis of the year", it's logical that as he likes carvers, the history will indicate this bias. If I skied more, I'd own a mid-70's carver for those majority of days when mountain conditions just don't warrant a specific snow condition like ice or pow. They are very comfortable to ski all day and just plain fun fast or slower. Great to ski on days skiing with friends when cruising seems to rule.

Yet, if I published a ski review publication, I'm not sure I would use "Ski of the Year" as a projection or promotional term. I'd rather save that term for a look backward. Minor point, without blind testing, i.e., topsheets covered, any review will be skewed by personal baggage.

Anyway, here's to Peter and his reviews. An annual precursor of ski season and gets the juices flowing as the weather begins to cool.

And here's to Jim and his purchase of this year's Ski of the Year. Many pow days to ya. Maybe we can do at least one together.

LivingProof

  • Global Moderator
  • 400 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 892
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2010, 08:03:25 am »
The ski mags are a complete joke!!

Amen to that!
And yes, for $20? Realskiers reviiews are a? wonderful resource, especially if you are looking for older models.

I am interested in a narrower waisted ski to replace my Every Thangs (shudder, what a horrible name).

Lynn,
Consider talking to Phil about finding a pair of Kastle RX70's sometime during the season. Ron and I both have demo's from Kastle that Phil got for us and this is one used ski that just rocks. I loved the RX on the day I demo'd it and it's going to be the Supershape replacement at some undetermined future point. Phil and I have had a least one discussion and just in case he forgot, Phil think of me when you get a RX in 170.

I followed Phil down a bump run on our demo day. He was on the RX 70 and just turning them so quick. Elk Mountain ski for sure!

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2010, 08:13:18 am »
Yeah at the end of the day that is what all of us are doing here, trying to get oursleves jacked up for ski season and we're all hoping that the time will pas quickly til there is snow on the ground!!!

I do have a ski purchase to announce: I just bought a pair of the Head i Speeeds in a 180 length. I skied these once before in a 175. I absolutley loved them. I need a pair of skis to race GS with this year. Last year I was skiing my Fischer Progressors and some Dynastar Race stock 21m TR GS skis. The Dynastars were too much ski and too wde a TR. My brother essentially stole my progressors he liked them so much. I was going to buy the Fischer RC's which were on sale at Ski Depot for $649 with bindings. Then I noticed that Ski Depot offers discounts to USSA members and since I have been one for the last 2 years I called and got the pricing sheet. They had the I Speeds for $799 with bindings. Not a steal but only $150 more than the RC's. I had $2450 in my paypal account all from seling skis last year (and this is my ski slush fund for this year). I decided to pull the trigger and I am pretty stoked. These skis also have KERS, which is an amazing technological advance in skis primarily used on hard snow!!.

I have room for one more purchase this year if I feel the urge. That may be the Chariots after I demo them. If not I may carry a credit into next year, which would be a first.

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2010, 08:21:31 am »

Congratulations, John. 
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Philpug

  • Ski Shop/Ski Patrol
  • 400 Posts
  • **
  • Posts: 541
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2010, 08:36:13 am »
Hey Phil we are all ears. Not sure there is way to do it without the subjective input of testers. I think if you look at anyone that does a good job with reviews (including Peter and Sierra Jim in your shop) they all try to look at the ski from a prerpective other than their own and imagine and or sense what this ski would be like for someone with less skill, or with other or differnt skills than they have. This as we all know is impossible for anyone to truly know, but good reviewers that are trying to help people select good skis and the right skis find a way to imagine this and communicate it. I think ski reviewing is an art and not a science. Few have matesred the art. Peter and Sierra Jim do as good a job as anyone IMO.

John, there is a tremendous amount of subjectivity, infact, Peters whole review system is based upon it. My point is, one person's opinion shouldn't out weigh ALL the others...combined.

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2010, 08:45:07 am »
Agreed but when you are King of your own fiefdom, you can pretty much do what you want!!. I like hearing his picks. Mayybe he shouldn't call them skis of the year but rather Peters Picks.

midwif

  • Global Moderator
  • 1000 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 1389
Re: Realskier Ski of the Year: The Chariot!!!
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2010, 10:29:25 am »

Peter is pretty up front about how the reviews are arrived at and the difference between those and "Picks of the year".
Might be useful for him to actually call it "Peter's Choice" or other eponymous title.
L.

/quote]
Agreed but when you are King of your own fiefdom, you can pretty much do what you want!!. I like hearing his picks. Mayybe he shouldn't call them skis of the year but rather Peters Picks.


Nicely alliterative ;D
I think that's the right title!

Now all that has to happen is Peter deciding we are all correct of our ?analysis? of his ski reviewing system vs choice of the year decision and implement.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 12:54:06 pm by jim-ratliff »
"Play it Sam"