Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot

[jim-ratliff]

LOL, there are how many people have access to this forum? I really should have posted that Ski Logik might not sell 126 pairs total. I don't know what their nut is to crack for being profitable..let alone in the first couple of years of production.

IIRC, Kastles sold about 600 pr last year.

Less than 50 registered memebers, only 20 of those have been on in the last 30 days.? A small group.? I certainly assume that Peter has much larger numbers than that for his pay site.

[Ron]

wow! So using just 300 per pair in gross profit, that's not worth opening the doors! ?I hope they plan to sell a hell of lot more pairs.... ?Since I own 3 pairs now, i should be on the VIP list. ?

[Ron]

His membership for the review site is probably a few thousand (?) plus you can view a abbreviated review site for free.? Ski Logik also did a press release highlighting the reviews here and on Freeskier. It was picked up by several mags and websites.  some threads at Epic (as posted above) and I think on TGR too.

[jim-ratliff]

wow! So using just 300 per pair in gross profit, that's not worth opening the doors! ?I hope they plan to sell a hell of lot more pairs.... ?Since I own 3 pairs now, i should be on the VIP list. ?

I'm almost certain that I saw at least 100 of those 600 pair of Kastle's at Aspen last year???

Ski Logik says they produce about 5 pair of skis per day. That says that they are currently limited to 1000-1500 pair for a full year, and there is no way that they were confident enough in their skis that they have been running at "full capacity" the past 12 months to create inventory.

So if I have 1 pair of SkiLogik's then I am as much of a VIP to them as Ron is to Kastle??? Hmmm, I've exchanged multiple emails with the "President" and with their "Corporate Artist in Residence" so I guess that is the VIP treatment.?

[jbotti]

"Since I own 3 pairs now, i should be on the VIP list"

You may actually be their best customer!!

[jim-ratliff]

"Since I own 3 pairs now, i should be on the VIP list"

You may actually be their best customer!!

Nawww.  One of his pair doesn't count!!  So he and Gary are probably tied for the "best customer" title.  Does Gary have two pair in the family or three?

[jbotti]

Here are some industry stats from the SIA:

To suumarize a few points. Total pairs of skis sold last year including those sold as a system with bindings was 826,000 pairs. Total ski equipment sales in the US was $693m last year which includes online. Total $'s spent at resorts on skiing (which I assume includes lift tickest, rentals, food and equipment and accessory sales was $1.8b. The breakdown is below. Kastle at 600 is a non factor. It is amazing how much talk there is of their skis with the 2% of skiers that are avid!!

Total Number of Snow Sports Participants
Season Alpine Snowboarding Cross Country
2006/07 10,362,000 6,841,000 3,530,000
2007/08 10,346,000 7,159,000 3,848,000
2008/09 10,919,000 7,421,000 4,157,000
 
Source: Physical Activity Council ? SIA SnowSports Participation Report 2010 These figures represent participants who are 6+ years old and participated in a sport at least once during the 2008/09 season.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gender of Skiers and Snowboarders ? 2008/09 Season
Gender Alpine Snowboard Cross Country
Male 63.8% 70.3% 58.1%
Female 36.2% 29.7% 41.9%
 
Source: Physical Activity Council ? SIA SnowSports Participation Report 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Age of Skiers and Snowboarders ? 2008/09 Season
Age Alpine Snowboard Cross Country
6-12 9.9% 10.7% 7.3%
13-17 11.6% 21.2% 8.6%
18-24 13.1% 27.6% 11.0%
25-34 21.0% 24.8% 23.5%
35-44 17.6% 8.6% 14.8%
45-54 17.1% 5.8% 19.2%
55-64 7.4% 1.1% 9.8%
65+ 2.2% 0.2% 5.9%
 
Source: Physical Activity Council ? SIA SnowSports Participation Report 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Total Number of U.S. Skier-Visits (In Millions)
Season Northeast Southeast Midwest Rockies Pacific Total
2009/10
(preliminary) 13.3 6.1 7.8 20.1 12.4 59.7
2008-09 13.7 5.7 7.3 20.0 10.7 57.4
2007-08 14.1 5.2 8.1 21.3 11.4 60.1
2006-07 11.8 4.9 7.2 20.8 10.3 55.1
2005-06 12.5 5.8 7.8 20.8 11.9 58.8
2004-05 13.7 5.5 7.5 19.6 10.6 56.9
2003-04 12.9 5.6 7.8 18.9 11.9 57.0
2002-03 14.0 5.8 8.3 18.7 10.9 57.6
2001-02 12.2 5.0 7.0 18.1 12.1 54.4
2000-01 13.9 5.5 7.6 19.1 11.1 57.2
 
Source: National Ski Areas Association (NSAA) Kottke National End of Season Survey. The NSAA defines a skier/snowboarder visit as one person visiting a ski area for all or any part of a day or night one time. This includes full-day, half-day, night, complimentary, adult, child, season and any other ticket type that gives one the use of an area?s facility. Kottke numbers will be available from NSAA in late August 2010 for the 2009/10 season.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Products Purchased at Snow Sports Specialty Stores
Season Apparel Equipment Accessories Total
2009-10 $582,547,354 $561,816,248 $632,370,255 $1,776,733,856
  32.8% 31.6% 35.6% 100%
2008-09 $598,726,870 $523,832,218 $585,355,794 $1,707,914,882
  35.1% 30.7% 34.2% 100%
2007-08 $664,251,136 $563,733,716  $624,826,402  $1,852,811,254 
  35.8% 30.4% 33.7% 100%
2006-07 $622,598,729  $563,622,139  $586,422,337  $1,772,643,206 
  35.1% 31.8% 33% 100%
2005-06 $579,172,886  $617,690,007  $599,325,160  $1,796,188,053 
  32% 36% 32% 100%
2004-05 $546,487,808  $622,995,217  $562,564,919  $1,732,047,944 
  32% 36% 32% 100%
2003-04 $513,937,507  $641,456,028  $556,509,695  $1,711,903,230 
  30% 37% 33% 100%
2002-03 $475,820,613  $662,773,389  $569,085,259  $1,707,679,261 
  28% 39% 33% 100%
 
Source: SIA SnowTRAK - August 1 to March 31 ? 2002-03 to 2009-10

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Products Purchased Online
Season Apparel Equipment Accessories Total
2009-10 $298,729,338 $132,439,566 $166,220,158 $597,389,063
% of online market 50% 22.2% 27.8% 100%
2008-09 $278,791,332, $115,219,427 $152,503,267 $546,514,025
% of online market 51% 21% 28% 100%
2007-08 $258,847,926 $113,166,387 $119,732,372 $491,746,685
% of online market 53% 23% 24% 100%
2006-07 $189,418,120 $64,408,888 $83,635,678 $337,462,685
% of online market 56%  19%  25%  100% 
Source: SIA SnowTRAK - August 1, 2009 to March 31, 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Selected Product Sales Trends at All Snow Sports Retail Shops
Product 08-09 Season   09-10 Season   Change in Units
Adult Twin Tip Skis  (Flat Skis) 68,248 72,129 5.7%
Adult Alpine Fat (80+mm waist)  65,900 82,787 25.6%
All Alpine Skis 619,605 595,653 -3.9%
Alpine Ski Systems 226,854 231,545 2.1%
Snowboards 552,548 533,151 -3.5%
Randonee/AT Ski Equipment 20,218 22,426 10.9%
Gloves 2,873,451 2,830,632 -1.5%
Helmets 997,718 1,228,506 23.1%
Insulated Parkas 1,645,141 1,741,573 5.9%
Winter Boots 876,795 1,007,251 14.9%
Snowboard Apparel 1,739,107 1,635,620 -6.0%
Source: SIA SnowTRAK - August 1, 2009 to March 31, 2010

[jbotti]

Can you tell that I like facts:

This is from an interview with Icelantics CEO:

After selling roughly 2,500 skis nationwide and in 18 foreign countries last year, Anderson expects the company to move 3,500 pairs this year ? a 40 percent increase. The reason, he and other company officials said, is the passion that the uniquely designed skis are stirring, both through First Tracks and through fans who are constantly in touch with the company

That gives you some sense. Even doing 400 skis at $800 per, that is only $3m out of $700m US industry and probably a similar size in the ROW (so $1.4b annual equipment sales). 

[jbotti]

In 2006, the last year that K2 was public, they did $421m in sales in ther ski equipment business which included K2, Volkl, Karhu and Line as well as their snowboard, snowshoe, In line skates and Nordic skis.

[jbotti]

Last one I promise. This from Atomic in 2002:

Sales of Atomic's alpine skis in the USA in 1997 were 32,000 pairs; this winter the company is expecting to sell 135,000 pairs. Over the same period Atomic's market share has risen from 3 to 15 per cent.

Not sure how much their share has grown or shrunk since then.

[jim-ratliff]

Some interesting stuff.

1. I don't have the numbers, but isn't saying Kastle is a non-factor in the total market sort of like saying that Porsche is a non-factor in the total car market? ?The question should be what percentage of their "target market(s)" bought kastle skis last year. ?I would bet that its a pretty good number. ?Is that target market large enough to be a profitable ski company? ?Don't know.

2. Very interesting that Snowboards were down 3.5%, Snowboard Apparel down 6.0%, alpine skis down 3.9%, but Adult alpine 80+mm skis were up 25.4% (a big percentage change but smaller numbers).

3. So the K2/Salomon/Rossignol's of the world are selling a LOT of skis. ?And maybe that "mass appeal" ski si where Head is trying to get rather than actually selling lower volumes of good skis. ?I saw a lot of Heads in rental fleets for the first time last year, looks drawing off the super shape name.

[jbotti]

In a market that is easily 100X the size of the ski industry, Porsche is also selling a lot more than 600 cars!! But I understand your point.

[jim-ratliff]

In a market that is easily 100X the size of the ski industry, Porsche is also selling a lot more than 600 cars!! But I understand your point.

Yes, a non-fact based point, but I also assume that Porsche sells more than 60,000 cars worldwide.

I too was very surprised by Phil's Kastle numbers in light of the price acceptance by people at Aspen last year and the technical acceptance of people on Ski Forums.? I was amazed to see places with Kastle's in their rental fleet!

So Phil, was the point of your post directed at the SkiLogik product line, or your general awareness of just how difficult it is to penetrate the ski market.

[Philpug]

In a market that is easily 100X the size of the ski industry, Porsche is also selling a lot more than 600 cars!! But I understand your point.

Yes, a non-fact based point, but I also assume that Porsche sells more than 60,000 cars worldwide.

I too was very surprised by Phil's Kastle numbers in light of the price acceptance by people at Aspen last year and the technical acceptance of people on Ski Forums.? I was amazed to see places with Kastle's in their rental fleet!

So Phil, was the point of your post directed at the SkiLogik product line, or your general awareness of just how difficult it is to penetrate the ski market.

My point was a couple of fold.


* Peters reviews have very little effect on a particular ski sale as a whole, his penetration is minimal if you look at the whole industry.

* Ski Logik, while a neat product has little or no distribution, advertising or marketing program

* When i approached Ski Logik at SIA, they had no terms set up and do demo program to get into a shop.

* The Lunatic fringe that is here, Epic and TGR while talk a big game do not pay the bills of shops and manufacturers. Joe and Jane Skier still deal with the devil they know.

* Just because it is said here, does not make it so

[jim-ratliff]

Yes, absolutely agree with all of those.

Having product is one thing (and their product line is pretty narrow) -- getting/building a channel is another.