Author Topic: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot  (Read 5876 times)

jbotti

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2010, 02:49:20 pm »
I am also referring to off piste turns. My move off piste is almost identical to what I do on harder snow, just with less intesnity, a softer approach. Not to preach, but that is the beauty of PMTS, one technique where ever you ski in any condition.

Ron

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #106 on: September 25, 2010, 03:01:31 pm »
then why are you tired skiing powder with wide ski's? I ski pow with fat skis with the intiation at underfoot to tip allowing the skis to drift out all day with much less effort. your method of steering the ski by tipping it first is uncessary effort use momentum, speed and countering, no need to tip the skis more than is needed.  You shoudl ski with my friend Ira to see how he drifts, effortless in the tightest trees... Just saying

jbotti

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #107 on: September 26, 2010, 12:10:47 am »
I don't think I ever said I got tired skiing powder on wide boards. I did say that tipping wide skis later in the day when one is skiing chop is more work. This is my issue with ultra wide boards. I don't need help skiing pow. In general it is effortless. It's chop, crud and bumps that make the day harder. IMO all of this is harder on wider skis, especillay if you are using tipping and attempting to get the skis on edge.

Ron

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #108 on: September 27, 2010, 07:36:04 am »
John, I assumed since you werea talking about off-piste since you referring to 108-115 wide skis. While you can ski these on the groomed, they really aren't desgined to be all day groomer skis. One thing that I don't understand is tipping a ski more than is needed only to then reduce the edge angle?


My powder ski in MT right now is the K2 Hardside which is 98mm underfoot. So the Chariot would actually be wider. I have had some skis in the 108-115mm zone (and the Lotus 138 was well 138 underfoot). I always find that these skis require a lot of work to get them on edge and at the end of the day I feel tired from tipping them. I think there is a place (for me) for a 110mm ski as a big dump powder day ski. It's still unclear if I need this in MT where the powder is so soft and fluffy. In Tahoe with heavier snow a 110mm ski is more helpful, but everything gets skied out so fast that after the first 2 hours I long to be on a much thinner wasited ski as I am skiing bumps, chop and crud.

If the Chariot is indeed a great carver and it feels like a wonderful ski, I will buy them right there. Again it comes down to TR. If I can have a ski that floats great in fresh snow but I can also use a tight sidecut to help me turn, it could be the perfect fresh snow ski. The Howitzer has tip rocker and more of it than I like. My preference is none but 30cm is quite a bit (vs 15-20cm). I think I have a much better shot at coming home with the UC's than I do the Howitzer.

Looking forward to skiing them both!!

jbotti

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #109 on: September 27, 2010, 08:43:54 am »
It all goes back to what I said in a previous post. There are two ways to turn a ski. One is by tipping first to engage the edges. The other is by pressuring the tails some (in a slide, drift or pivot) and then engage the edges when the ski has already changed it's course. Both can be done on piste or off piste. To carve a turn (edge locked) you cannot do the second of the above options. Having said that you can use the carving motion of tipping and getting the skis on edge to produce a non edge lock carved or a brushed carve turn.This is a great turn to use off piste and it is the turn I attemptt to use all the time in my off piste skiing. I say attempt because there are times that my skills are not good enough and I need to pivot or slide the skis to get them to turn faster. On good days I canpretty much avoid doing this. On bad days, anything can happen!!This is the off piste turn that Harald Harb uses in pretty much all conditions and it is the turn that he teaches in his books. I think it is a great turn and if one perfects it, the turn will take youu everywhere. As Harald says it is bullet proof (when one has perfected it to that degree). To do this turn properly, it require failry intense tipping forces. The tipping enables the whole ski to brush rather than pushing on the tails where the tails will pivot. There are just two different ways to get a ski to turn on a tighter arc than it's turn radius.

Again let's distinguish several different types of off piste skiing. Pure untracked powder is a distinct condition and a distinct experience. Really fat skis may actually be a slight advantge in pure untracked. But in my experience skiing pure untracked in chutes that lead to steep bowls or in glades with lots of trees, I really don't need an ultra wide or rockered board to ski it well and have fun (admitting that it might be a little easier and a little more fun on wider boards). Now when it gets tracked out and we are dealing with chop and bumps, it is a different experience and I find that wider boards require more work if you are attempting to tip the skis first rather than slide them and or pivot them. I think this makes intuitive sense because wider boards require more pressure to tip them hence more firing of the feet and ankle muscles used in tipping. I am quite happy with the comprimise, using a less wide board in untracked so that later in the day I can use tipping motions as my go to approach.



Ron

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #110 on: September 27, 2010, 09:06:38 am »
I totally disagree with your assertion that its either tips or tails, I don't initiate with the tail, I initate underfoot with ankles, knees using only the desired angles needed, stacked with my body movng through the turn in conjunction with a strong counter :no need to drive the tips and overtip the ski and then regulate it back to the desired angle. Hopefully gary will read this.   A wide ski requires far less tipping to realize the same effect of a narrow ski tipped; its just basic physics. Much more surface area in 3-D conditions.  Like a rudder of a ship; you can have a thin rudder and have to turn it much more to affect the turning of the ship since it has limited contact with the water or you can have a much wider rudder that will require less of an angle to have more contact with the water to have much more torque and turning power.  No need to over tip the wider rudder, its not needed; so I am not saying to ski on the tails, there just is no need to drive the tips; intiate from underfoot, since that is the strongest part of the ski and provides the most energy. Especially with powder skis where the tips are very soft (not to mentioned rockered where they little snow contact; wasted energy) and don't transmit much energy, intiating underfoot tramsits the most energy and maintains the most contact. In rockered skis the underfoot area acts as a pivot point with little Runing length in the tip/tail.

jbotti

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #111 on: September 27, 2010, 09:29:23 am »
I think they are different turns, but we can agree to disagree. What matters most is that we are out having fun.

Gary

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #112 on: September 27, 2010, 12:08:06 pm »
Hmmm...I come to the Thanksgiving dinner table late but I find the drum sticks delectible!

Having enjoyed my JJ's at 115 underfoot and plenty of rocker, I find these just as easy to transiton to the next turn with a simple flatening of the downhill ski...which creates a passive release of the uphill ski uphill edge. Staying in the drift or love spot for as long or as short as I want with the skis flat allow me the time to feather in the edges both big toe of the down hill ski and baby toe of the uphill ski for as long or as little as I need.
Now this is not the ski of choice for skiing groomed snow. Getting most big boards over 100mm on high edge angle can be a bit trying and even work to keep them there. But that's not what I put them on for. A good example is the Icelantic Pilgrim twin tips at 90 underfoot. That ski could be put up on high edge angle like a GS ski with little effort. The Watea 94 would take me for the "wild ride" when I tried the same thing.
As my taste for different skis has evolved i find I can do what and where I want to do with my Kastle 78's. Carve it, drift it, twist it, float up right up to shin high snow. After that out come the JJ's. The JJ's work their best (like most big boards) with slight edge pressure to the 4 edges, quiet upper body, flex and extension....keepin g things working with the feet, staying stacked. It's not the kind of ski I'd even want to play with for any extended period of time at high edge angle. I've done it on groomed snow but they are not the tool to use...they love the deep, heavy, the pow, crud and soft snow they were designed for.
I must say that we all bring something different yet similar to thte table....there is no one way that's perfect so what ever works for ya is oh so good. Me,...I try to keep it simple, quiet, not use too much energy and keep that smile on my face all ski day long....hope you all are finding the same!? Best, G

Ron

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #113 on: September 27, 2010, 12:57:14 pm »
Gary, john contention is that you must either initiate from the tips first and after they engage, then drift the rest of the ski or you must use the tails an essentially pivot slip the turn; how do you/John explain this...

Gary

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #114 on: September 27, 2010, 01:24:37 pm »
For me, with a hard charging carving ski on steep groomed terrain, the more forward I am in my attack position, the more my shovels will engage in the transition of the turn. So the turn happens in the feet from the toes back.

In pow or or the big boards, I ski much more out of the center of the ski....heavy shovel tip engagement in deep or broken snow is trouble (for me) cause over pressuring the the tips will just overpower the ski (tip dive- tips are the softest part of the ski)....the words subtle and soft edges with plenty of float/drift are key for me here.

What I feel in each of the above mentioned condition is the amount or lack there of, shin pressure on the front of the boot. When skiing pow or broken snow in any of my skis, I feel more centered and stacked using more deliberate and defineable pressure along the full length of the ski.

I have recently found (with some further boot adjustments) what a beautiful tool that part of the ski from the heel? to the tail can be. Truly being able to move fore and aft on the ski and watching how those movements affect the direction fo the ski has been amazing. Again, this is specific to how and what I feel....as well as some great tutaledge from some great ski coaches.

All the best, g

« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 01:32:37 pm by Ron »

jbotti

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #115 on: September 27, 2010, 01:40:58 pm »
OK, one last time. First let me say that I have skied on rockered and reverse camber skis for years and I was early on this bandwagon (one that I have also jumped off of) so my experience level with rocker, reverse camber, reverse sidecut and wide boards is high. I have skied skis as wide as 138 underfoot and I have skied many skis in the 115m range underfoot.

So I will respond to this quote from Ron:
Gary, john contention is that you must either initiate from the tips first and after they engage, then drift the rest of the ski or you must use the tails an essentially pivot slip the turn; how do you/John explain this... ?

In any turn where the edges are not locked in a carve and where the turn radius of the turn is tighter than that of the ski, the ski must drift some from the arc of the ski in order for the turn to be tighter than the radius of the ski. Assuming that we agree on this (which is simple physics) I will move forward.

There are two ways to accomplish this action of the skis moving in a tigher arc that what exists on them. One is for the tails to move sideways and down the hill first, so as you are turning ?to the right the tails move further down the fall line thus making the ski more prependicular to the fallline, thus tightening the arc of the ski (to some degree the same thing is happening in a hockey stop but with much more agreessive tail pushing). In this instance the tails will move down the falline before the tips will. It works and it is a valid way to make a tighter turn arc (just not the way I want to).

I will complete this is another post becuase I tend to have problems with long posts on this forum.


Ron

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #116 on: September 27, 2010, 02:01:45 pm »
there's a 3rd...... its initating the turn from the middle of the ski and then letting the ski move sideways or on an angle, you can easily modify and regulate how deep of a drift (how much the skis come parallell to the fall line) and how much yo andle the edges. but it is done without driving the tail; although you way actually want to use the tail as part of the turn for stability or power.  Not sure why you insist this is not possible.

jbotti

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #117 on: September 27, 2010, 02:06:04 pm »
So the other way is to use tipping movements versus drifting/pivoting movements. When using tipping movements combined with couteracting forces we can move the tips and tails in a more simultaneous fashiion. This cannot be accomplsihed with pivots or any tail pushing motions (pivot sips would be the prime example of the opposite of the tipped brushed carve turn). To do it properly requires agressive tipping, agressive counter and the weight has to be agressively forward on the skis. I am not talking about a gentle GS arc off piste which can be accomplshed with a little tipping and a little drifting. That arc will do nothing to help anyone control their speed. I am talking about tight brushed carved slalom turns in steep off piste terrain. These turns are hard to perfect but they are also bullet proof in difficult terrain. The problem with the other approach (again in steep terrain where tight slalom like turns are necessary to control speed off piste) is that when the tails are pushed on is out of position to start the next arc. The counter has come undone, the weight by defintion needs to be back (to push and or pivot the tails) and hence there needs to be a recovery moment or moments to get back into the proper positoion to quickly initiate the next arc.

To be clear, there can be some middle ground between the two where one is tipping some , countering some and pushing the tails some to help things out. But again I hold to my previous statement that there are only two ways to get the ski to come around faster than it's true arc or TR.

Now it looks like from reading Gary's posts that both of you are doing some of what I am talking about which is great. I will also say that to do the turn I am talking about takes most people a lot pf practice and several seaons of hard drill focused work to perfect it (which is not to say that a few elite learners can't do it faster). I think you're both going to need to come to MT so we can ski together and we can talk about all this on the mountain!!
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 03:51:15 pm by jbotti »

Gary

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #118 on: September 27, 2010, 02:10:52 pm »
"One last time" sounds so ominous... ;D Yup...it needs it's own separate post for sure.
Yes I would say I agree 100% with your statement JB about the turning radius adding....that the skis will drift in the same direction of the turn....I like this and yes...simple physics.

Ok...so pushing the tails down the mountain is not one way I would use as I believe it in itself creates ?skidding skis, with little or no control. Using the hocky stop or edge set prior or during the drift, I feel that occuring out of the center towards the tail of the ski as my hips create a sudden counter move. But again, this is with the skis moving together in the intended direction. The only times I might purposly have the ski tails below my shovels is in turns where I'm trying to bleed off some speed in some high speed turns or in the bumps to drop some speed...but in both cases, the skis are parallel and it's my center mass moving fore and aft on the skis that are the driving force on where that pressure is applied to the ski.

I almost think we are saying if not the same but very similar things John....
I hope this dialogue is helpful to others because it's taken me many years to be able to talk about what my feet, body and edges are doing and I hope that others find this helpful.
Look forward to continued sharring of information from all....g

jbotti

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Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
« Reply #119 on: September 27, 2010, 02:12:40 pm »
Ron's Quote:
there's a 3rd...... its initating the turn from the middle of the ski and then letting the ski move sideways or on an angle, you can easily modify and regulate how deep of a drift (how much the skis come parallell to the fall line) and how much yo andle the edges. but it is done without driving the tail; although you way actually want to use the tail as part of the turn for stability or power. ?Not sure why you insist this is not possible.

You keep focusing on the idea that tipping is about the tips. It is not. Tipping occurs over the full length of the ski. I never said it could not occur from the middle, I only said that it either comes from tail pushing or tipping. When you tip the whole ski tips on edge. Now I will also asy that you can't tip properly wth your weight back (if you put pressure anywhere on the ski with the weight back the tails will move down the fall line, again simple physics), so to tip in such a way to make a quality brushed carve turn you need to be forward before and while you are tipping.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 02:18:18 pm by jbotti »