Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot

[Ron]

congrats Jim!  That sounds great. Right tool for the job.....  Speaking Howitzer- a 110 wide ski intended for pow and soft snow does not need to have a 15m TR (theoretical), you are not hard edging turns in powder, you are soft edging the turns so a SR ski is actually working against you; it requires more effort and attention to the turns as opposed to a wider consistent width that will distribute force and float along the entire ski with a taper to the tail for easier release (like a Benny with 140-123-135), meaning easy, less effort to accomplish the same turn.....  the howitzer does look great BTW!!  I think you wil love your ski!!  Can't wait to see the pics.

[jbotti]

My powder ski in MT right now is the K2 Hardside which is 98mm underfoot. So the Chariot would actually be wider. I have had some skis in the 108-115mm zone (and the Lotus 138 was well 138 underfoot). I always find that these skis require a lot of work to get them on edge and at the end of the day I feel tired from tipping them. I think there is a place (for me) for a 110mm ski as a big dump powder day ski. It's still unclear if I need this in MT where the powder is so soft and fluffy. In Tahoe with heavier snow a 110mm ski is more helpful, but everything gets skied out so fast that after the first 2 hours I long to be on a much thinner wasited ski as I am skiing bumps, chop and crud.

If the Chariot is indeed a great carver and it feels like a wonderful ski, I will buy them right there. Again it comes down to TR. If I can have a ski that floats great in fresh snow but I can also use a tight sidecut to help me turn, it could be the perfect fresh snow ski. The Howitzer has tip rocker and more of it than I like. My preference is none but 30cm is quite a bit (vs 15-20cm). I think I have a much better shot at coming home with the UC's than I do the Howitzer.

Looking forward to skiing them both!!

[jim-ratliff]

Ron: ?Agreed, and that is effectively what I was saying as well. ?Since John is wanting a powder ski, the Howitzer is a better fit, but it doesn't have the 15m turn radius that John initially found attractive. ?I'm still comfortable in hoping that the Ullr's Chariot is a very good hybrid ski for me, but I'm looking for a 1 ski "do most things well" and am more than willing to agree with and accept Phil's logic that a "jack of all trades will be a master of none."

However, I can hardly wait to hear John's (and Harald's) thoughts on the ski, especially given the likely Loveland conditions at that time of year. ? Not likely to be the most favorable for demoing 100mm waisted skis.

EDIT
John posted his response while I was typing, so a bit out of order.

[Ron]

Jim, you have it right no worries. You know exactly what ski you bought and what for!  Now go forth and ski 

[jim-ratliff]

Jim, you have it right no worries. You know exactly what ski you bought and what for!? Now go forth and ski?

Yeah!!!? I bought it for its looks.? ? ? And? we all know how shallow that is, in women and cars and skis!!?

Actually, I'm very comfortable and excited about the purchase.? Of course, hard to think about snow when its record setting mid-upper 90's outside.

[Ron]

remember--- All mountain means good at most, great at nothing......

This should be a great soft groomer ripper and just fine for most lighter powder and leftover days.  Great ski for you and I hope the tops are always covered in white....

Oh, wait, that would make them Kastles......

[Ron]

john, just wondering, you realize these skis are designed to be drifted? I can certainly understand why you would be exhausted from trying to tip a ski like that!? Just like I woudn't use a ski like this on the groomed, very tiring and stressful on kness too!? Strike it up to different approaches but I don't get tired skiing powder on wide skis. i can effortlessly turn them on a dime when needed; cruise low angle pow with little energy as the ski can maintain enough speed and momentum as soft edge turns don't kill your speed (unless you want to, then you just need to use more edge); medium to wide turns in the open are just "stupid-easy".? Not knocking what you are doing and many of my firends prefer their 70 and 80 something ski's over fatties too but I wouldn't recommend anyone with that style of skiing to use a fat ski. IMHO that's the wrong tool. More than likely, you don't need more than 90's-105.
btw- Hey, I have been back to using heavy weighted outside ski (90/10) with slight heel lift on inside ski on groomers and crud as I have learned that is a better way for me on that kind of terrain ( but upright and not compressed) . But as it gets progressively softer and then deeper, its more like a 60/40 drift or even 55/45, with soft edges, much less effort and even tighter, faster turns with a fatter ski. no stress on my knees either.

My powder ski in MT right now is the K2 Hardside which is 98mm underfoot. So the Chariot would actually be wider. I have had some skis in the 108-115mm zone (and the Lotus 138 was well 138 underfoot). I always find that these skis require a lot of work to get them on edge and at the end of the day I feel tired from tipping them. I think there is a place (for me) for a 110mm ski as a big dump powder day ski. It's still unclear if I need this in MT where the powder is so soft and fluffy. In Tahoe with heavier snow a 110mm ski is more helpful, but everything gets skied out so fast that after the first 2 hours I long to be on a much thinner wasited ski as I am skiing bumps, chop and crud.

If the Chariot is indeed a great carver and it feels like a wonderful ski, I will buy them right there. Again it comes down to TR. If I can have a ski that floats great in fresh snow but I can also use a tight sidecut to help me turn, it could be the perfect fresh snow ski. The Howitzer has tip rocker and more of it than I like. My preference is none but 30cm is quite a bit (vs 15-20cm). I think I have a much better shot at coming home with the UC's than I do the Howitzer.

Looking forward to skiing them both!!

[Ron]

Jim/John/Perry, heres a review of the Chariot (178) from Epic



The late April day at Jay Peak, Vermont provided temperatures hovering right around the low thirties and a mixture of all types of precipitation across the mountain.? On the summit it was snowing lightly, although slushing may be a better term for it.? What was falling was certainly sticking, and sticky... and there were three to four inches of it on the ground by the time I got there.? Underneath were the remnants of the last thaw/freeze cycle, which were still very much in the freeze side of things.? Turns up top were anything from soft and buttery where the new slush hadn't been hit yet, to hard and scraped off where the masses had already travelled.? As you progressed down the mountain the base got softer and softer, and by the bottom the new precip. was just rain, although thankfully it as mostly just misty, without really very many big drops to speak of.? The combination of warmer temps and the misty conditions actually created some really fun snow, with two inches or so of heavy slush to carve through and nothing to worry about sliding on underneath it.
 
My first impression getting on the skis [aside from how stunningly beautiful they are of course? ] was realizing that I had potentially mounted them too far forward.? With the two mounting lines on the ski so far apart (almost 8cm by my measurement!) I took a shot in the dark and mounted my Salomon z12 demo's at +3 cm from the back line.? Standing on the skis I felt like I was farther forward over the tips than I would like to be, and once or twice while skiing them I had to catch myself from being thrown too far forward when coming out of a turn.? Luckily the demo bindings I used are adjustable fore and aft so I may just be able to slide them back to where I want them, but if not they will be getting re-mounted onto the back line before next season.? Not being much of a park skier I don't really ride any truly center-mounted skis, but I couldn't imagine going any farther forward on these than I already am, and there's almost another 5cm to the front line!?
 
Once I got the moving I was really surprised by how stable they felt, even compared with other 100mm skis that I have ridden.? Smashing through the various degrees of slop that I encountered on my way down the hill they very rarely got deflected, and really felt right at home carving small to medium turns on steep, open terrain no matter what was underneath them.? They felt secure underfoot and "popped"? nicely from one turn to the next no matter how hard they were pressured or how much edge angle was used.? It seemed like the more I had to give and the further I bent them through the turn, the more they were ready to give right back.? At 5'7 160 or so I didn't really find a stopping point, as they continued to get more lively and responsive the more energy I put into them.? Another situation where I got a more stable and solid feeling from them than I have from other similarly waisted skis was on landings.? The meager late season conditions didn't allow for anything bigger than a couple of 2-3 foot drops and some berm-launches, but every time I left the ground the transition back down was noticeably incredibly smooth.? There were one or two instances where a ski caught up and hooked away during a landing in a way that I don't feel it would have on a ski with less side-cut, but I'm ready to chalk that up to pilot-error / learning curve.? There's certainly less room for error in ankle positioning than on some wider, straighter skis but I think the immense surface area under the tips and tails somewhat helps to alleviate this and helps provide that stableness as long as your feet are reasonably underneath you.

[jim-ratliff]

A Letter from Dave Mazzarella that was posted on "telemarktalk" web site talking about his history ski-making.

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:06 am? ? Post subject:? ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Ski Logik is the realization of my goals as a ski maker.

As many of you know, I created ScottyBob (the company) to market ScottyBob's (the person) design. Back in 2000, I focused on it full-time. We dropped the Ski Logic name we used at first and chose ScottyBob. I spent a lot of time figuring out how to make great skis. Eventually, I selected Silverton and set up the factory there and managed it during its growth period.

As demand grew and stores wanted our skis, I made the fateful decision to outsource in China. The problems were enormous and we came out of it crippled as well as other brands who were in the same factory. Because of quality problems, we probably wound up cutting up close to 1,000 pairs of unmounted skis.

Understandably, Scotty couldn't forgive me for the mistakes of '05 and it was rough going between us after that. From then on we had different ideas as to direction of the company and this eventually led to us splitting up earlier this year.

I'm glad Scotty is still making skis in Silverton. I love the town and sense of community there, and I'd still be in Silverton if I could have supported my family there. I think it's awesome that there's a guy in Silverton named ScottyBob who'll make a pair for you. I wish Scotty well and hope you will support him by buying his skis.

People always ask me to compare Ski Logik's skis to ScottyBob's skis. I can't compare his skis to Ski Logik's skis for two reasons. First, it would be inappropriate for me to do so, and second, I honestly haven't seen a pair that he has made in several years.

On teletips, I'm forever pegged as the mass-producer of ScottyBob, although in my ten years of ski making, I've only mass-produced for one season - 3 months actually.

Ski Logik is a reaction to that mass-production experience. I realized that the workers in China were great and that the lower costs of operating in China provided the possibility to evolve and refine the concepts that were developed in Silverton.

In America, we were always pressed on costs. Then, in China, when we outsourced, we couldn't get high quality nor management's dedication.

I decided to set up my own facility in China to make the best skis possible - a factory where I could put whatever material I wanted without cost considerations - a factory where workers are encouraged to put an extra couple of hours in a pair to make it awesome.

I found a liveable city on Hainan Island called Sanya and I moved there with my family. It's a very cool place to live and a great experience for all of us. Life is an adventure and knowing different places and cultures adds another dimension to everything. I wouldn't want to live a life without that experience.

Setting up was difficult in ways I couldn't have imagined, but here we are making five unique pairs of skis a day - each pair is a part of my quixotic dream.

I know there are plenty of people who equate China with mass-production - and for good reason. The irony is that by setting up in China, I've been able to increase the amount of craftsmanship over anything that was possible before. I'm sure we're putting more manual labor in our skis than any other producer. I encourage our team to put an extra hour or two into any pair if they can make it better, and there's constant creation going on here. This approach is not financially possible in Europe or America.

We've been producing for a year now, having started with a small number of re-designed ScottyBobs last season. Now with Ski Logik, we've once again evolved our construction to put them on an alpine performance level. We did this for both alpine skiers and the many telemarkers who want alpine-level performance. We've also created some twintips that are getting great feedback and we continue our prototyping and development non-stop.

So, in a nutshell, Ski Logik grew out of ScottyBob, but it is its own separate being moving to the beat of its own drummer.


David Mazzarella

[jbotti]

Ron, there are two ways to start a non carved turn. One is with tip engagemnet at the beginning usimg tipping movemenst in the feet to initially engage the skis and get them on edge and then allowing them to brush as you ask the ski to turn tighter than it's radius. This is the way I attempt to ski all the time. The other way is to slide and or pivot the skis first and then engage them after they have been pushed somewhat sideways. I agree rocker is designed to make it easier to slide the skis sideways in the very beginning of the turn. Since my aim is to avoid doing this in my skiing, it's obvious why I don't like rocker. As well the wider and straighter that the ski gets the harder it is to engage it early in the turn using tipping forces with the feet.

So it's obviosu why the widest ski that I currently ski is 98mm. Again I do think there may be a nice 110mm ski out there that would be great and fun in 2 feet plus days. Not sure if I need them.

Great review on the chariot!! Nice find and thanks for posting it. It sounds like it is exactly what I am looking for. This does look like the PMTS powder/big mountain ski.

[Ron]

we will have to agree to disagree about the drift.. I will buy you a beer if you buy me one 

[jbotti]

You're on!!

[jim-ratliff]

I have to say that this buying experience has been a LOT of fun!!
I'm very glad that JBotti talked me into buying this ski.   

Sent: Fri 9/24/2010 11:36 PM
To: Jim Ratliff
Subject: Ski Logik


Hi Jim,

I do not want to spoil the surprise but your Elvira looks beautiful. 
I picked the last of the best veneer we had for her body and it really stands out nicely against the darkest veneer we have. 
I wanted also to let you know that I took the liberty of changing the color of the letters for Gandalf.  I remember you telling me that he was a good, white wizard.  So the black lettering did not feel right to me.  I changed to a veneer that is a sparkling white to match his positive spirit...it will be a little more subdued on the tails but it will merge better with the art and with his character. 

I hope you do not mind.

Mariella

[jim-ratliff]

It's good that you can agree to disagree, but are you both talking about turning in the same conditions (on-piste turns?).  I have the feeling that Ron was talking about turns where you aren't in contact with a firm surface and John is??
 

Ron, there are two ways to start a non carved turn. One is with tip engagemnet at the beginning usimg tipping movemenst in the feet to initially engage the skis and get them on edge and then allowing them to brush as you ask the ski to turn tighter than it's radius. This is the way I attempt to ski all the time. The other way is to slide and or pivot the skis first and then engage them after they have been pushed somewhat sideways. I agree rocker is designed to make it easier to slide the skis sideways in the very beginning of the turn. Since my aim is to avoid doing this in my skiing, it's obvious why I don't like rocker. As well the wider and straighter that the ski gets the harder it is to engage it early in the turn using tipping forces with the feet.

So it's obviosu why the widest ski that I currently ski is 98mm. Again I do think there may be a nice 110mm ski out there that would be great and fun in 2 feet plus days. Not sure if I need them.

Great review on the chariot!! Nice find and thanks for posting it. It sounds like it is exactly what I am looking for. This does look like the PMTS powder/big mountain ski.

[Ron]

not sure Jim, but yes, I am only referring to drift turns on powder or loose, soft snow or spring crud type snow.  thanks Jim.