Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot

[jim-ratliff]

why do you want a 100mm ski for hard pack or groomers for that matter?

I don't.? I'm pretty happy with the SuperShape Magnum's for that.?
I want a ski for all of the mountain that is inbounds (or, given Lynn's mood of the day, at least close to inbounds).?
Or maybe a better phrase would be that I want a tree and powder ski that retains as much groomed slope ability as possible.

[Ron]

well I have a pair of 179 pilgrims I am selling..... 90 underfoot, very easy to ski, great in bumps, decent float and still very adept on the groomers. 

[jim-ratliff]

well I have a pair of 179 pilgrims I am selling..... 90 underfoot, very easy to ski, great in bumps, decent float and still very adept on the groomers.

Hmmm.  How much? 
84->90 versus 84->100 Hmmm.

[Gary]

Jim.....if you're comparing the 84 Watea's to the Pilgrims...ain't no comparison....I think from my time on both skis that the Pilgrim is much more versatile.

As good on the groomers but the Pilgrim is hands down the winner in broken snow, pow, crud and bumps.

G

[jim-ratliff]

Well, Gary, actually the link below is what has me contemplating a ski that I may not really "need".?
Ratings similar to the Kastle's from last year (and probably still) but at a significantly lower price point - and I really like the wood inlays.
And if I upgrade I think I want more than just going from 84 to 90. I may need 100mm in order to keep up with Lynn on her 84mm Fischer Muangas (=Zeal).
I tried repeatedly to tell her that, at her 115 lbs, she didn't need such a wide ski, but to no avail.? ?

Oh, and the top sheet in the picture isn't the one that Lynn picked out.? You can get any of their wood patterns on any of the skis, and she selected Elvira for me.?



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[LivingProof]

Jim,
You sure sound smitten with the Urll's. The difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys! Personally, I don't want to be on the bleeding edge of technology, maybe, just behind it. Consider waiting for some on-snow report outs. An advantage to a single  western ski is that you get to know how it performs, something like knowing the devil you are with as compared to renting and dealing with the devil you don't know.

Just to speak to JB's point about getting wider skis on edge. My only experience with wider ski's are the Kastle 88's which can't really be called wide in today's definitions. I found that after a few days on them, my knees begin to hurt. The major reason is that I'm still doing my PMTS carving technique and it takes more to get them on edge and keep them there. As you point out, physics is physics. So my thinking is that I will use more brushing, less carving, and use wider radius turns when cruising.

Hmmm, wonder what HH will say when the first pair of Urll's shows up at a camp.

PS - what is your epic login?

[Gary]

WOW Jim...what a sweet review on that ski....and I love the dims..

If we're talkiing price point....I gotta believe the 11mm in fatness are going to cost ya...I'm guessing Ron's going to be pricing out those Pilgrims right.

If you decided to keep the 84 Watea for your everyday ski...I think it might be worth the width to go to something in the 100 to 110 width for those pow and deep crud snow days. On those days you're not using that width to create high edge angles like Mike was saying.....it can be hard on the knees especially when something 100+ wide decided to hook up. Never had any of that at all with the Pilgrims but did with teh Watea 94.

The key is to determine what you want them for. My JJ's are not for carving....they're for slurrying, slurping, surfing, floating, and sucking up and gliding over pow and soft crud. I wouldn't even think of taking them out on a hard snow day of any kind...I've tried and the vibration beat the crap out of me.
G

[jim-ratliff]

  Wellll, lets take the issues one by one.

- Gandalf

- HSS did have a guy show up December '09 Blue/Dark Blue camp with really wide skis.? After the on-snow evaluation session, which is where they first saw the skis he brought, they carefully explained to him that they were unable to effectively teach him on equipment that might be fine for free skiing but wasn't conducive to what they were teaching.? They offered to loan him a pair of appropriate skis.? I don't know what the resolution was, but he was VERY hesitant about the taste of the Kool-Aid.? I admired Diana for sticking to their guns.

- Keeping the Supershape Magnums for east coast skiing and/or attending Harb or other camps (but trying to avoid schlepping two pair around all the time).? "Schlepping" now there's a word from the past.

- My knees have never bothered me with the 84's, but I've also pretty much avoided using them on even semi-hard slopes (never around here).? But I also have pretty neutral alignment, maybe that is part of it.? I seem to remember there were a couple of days when my ankles were tired.? Interestingly, skiing together there have been days when Lynn's knees were bothering her and we were both on 84mm waisted skis.? But then, she's a girl.? ?

- I KNOW that even on narrower skis I don't generate the angles or edging that Jbotti or Gary (or Phil or Ron) do, so I'm not too worried about maintaining what I can't do.? However, the small turning radius might allow me to do the same turns I do now with lesser edge angles (the 84's TR is 18).

- I just want them for general skiing out west, but that is becoming more and more soft snow and tree centric.? And, I beleive its easier to rent a "standard rental" ski for a western ice day than to get a good powder ski on an epic day.? I had many more days last year when I wished for more width than I did days where I regretted the width of the Watea's because the snow was too firm.

- Peter has enough on-snow time with them (1 day) that's he already decided to buy a pair to go along with his Contact 4x4's.? Of course, I'm not the skier that Peter is either, but this is about as positive as I've heard him review a ski, and I've had pretty good luck sticking to skis that have his green icon ((i'm not the blue or black skier by his system).? And I regretted buying the iM77 Chip merely because the iM75 chip that Gary had was so good.? Peters's reviews were right on there as well, and the non-chip was a better ski.

[jbotti]

Jim, the beauty of this country is that you can do whatever you want and buy whatever skis you want unfortunately even if you don't have the money to pay for them. You and I are somewhere between intrigued and smitten with what we think these ski are and can be. Enjoy buying a pair and know that you owe no explanation other than you liked what you saw and you wanted them. I have said for years the only real quiver anyone needs is a solid slalom carver on hard snow and a powder ski (do as I say not as I do!!). I think with the chariot and the Magnum you will have a great 2 ski quiver. Enjoy!!

[midwif]

Jim, the beauty of this country is that you can do whatever you want and buy whatever skis you want unfortunately even if you don't have the money to pay for them. You and I are somewhere between intrigued and smitten with what we think these ski are and can be. Enjoy buying a pair and know that you owe no explanation other than you liked what you saw and you wanted them. I have said for years the only real quiver anyone needs is a solid slalom carver on hard snow and a powder ski (do as I say not as I do!!). I think with the chariot and the Magnum you will have a great 2 ski quiver. Enjoy!!

JB
You gotta understand that Jim NEEDS to explain.
This is how he is rationalizing this impending purchase to himself!

But, ultimately, you are correct.

[jim-ratliff]

Jim,
You sure sound smitten with the Urll's. The difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys!
PS - what is your epic login?

Mike:  I'm not so sure about that anymore.  Have you priced PlayStations and WII's recently?  And then added in the price of a good "quiver" of games?

[jim-ratliff]

Jim, the beauty of this country is that you can do whatever you want and buy whatever skis you want unfortunately even if you don't have the money to pay for them. You and I are somewhere between intrigued and smitten with what we think these ski are and can be. Enjoy buying a pair and know that you owe no explanation other than you liked what you saw and you wanted them. I have said for years the only real quiver anyone needs is a solid slalom carver on hard snow and a powder ski (do as I say not as I do!!). I think with the chariot and the Magnum you will have a great 2 ski quiver. Enjoy!!

JB
You gotta understand that Jim NEEDS to explain.
This is how he is rationalizing this impending purchase to himself!

But, ultimately, you are correct.

Isnt' she wonderful??
GUILTY!!  Lynn patiently listened to my rationalizing all weekend (not to mention looking at the online pictures and reading the review and listening to the emails back from Dave Mazz and Peter).
Finally said that she thought it was time for a bike ride (and it was). 

[LivingProof]

well I have a pair of 179 pilgrims I am selling..... 90 underfoot, very easy to ski, great in bumps, decent float and still very adept on the groomers.?

If I may sidetrack Jim's thread for a second (gosh, that would be a first, eh?), Ron now that you have skied the Kastle 88, how does it differ from the Pilgrim? Very close in width, 88 vs 90.

Also, Jim, I'm not a gammer, but, I've seen the cost of individual games and they can be pricey.

[Ron]

88 vs. 90 or even 88-92 is neglible at best the real difference is going to be overall dims, longitudinal & lateral flex, "metal" type of wood and other factors like base material. don't get so caught up on the width, it's just one factor. The 88 is a clear notch up on performance. Phil said it best, it skis narrower when on hard pack and skis wider when on soft snow. It's uber stable at speed, holds an edge on steeper chalky stuff (I didn't ski anything steeper than 30 degrees, which isn't that steep) but the tops of some of the cornices and drops were pretty steep but short. The Pilgrim is a greaat ski, just more soft snow oriented, it does have a speed limit, where as the 88 didn't (I am not darren Ralves).  in manky sofish refreeze, suncupped crap, it was so stable, A strong downhill leg and the ski just ripped through it all. Again, I was blown away at the stability in this stuff.

So to summarize, the pilgrim is a great soft snow ski,  very capable in some powder, loose soft snow, soft groomers and very nice in bumps. (No bumps to try the 88's in) A very easy ski, forgiving and fun, lots of energy.  The 88 is a more serious crud busting, soft snow, hard snow ski, more powerful and stable.

[Gary]

Jim.....you just loaded the "sympathy"train with a gaggle of male supporters. You have bloggingly flogged yourself on this public forum for all to see.

You now are guilt free, have the support of the masses AND an understanding lady.....what's a little money at YOUR age! 

Life is short my friend and powder days are even fewer...

Now...don't worry....be happy... 

The right tools for the day do make the difference...just ask any shopper in the Sears Tool Department!

Lots of time left before snow falll and with Phil at your beckon call to provide you a great deal....what more do you need.....go ahead skier....."make my day"! 

G