Author Topic: Ride up Mt Werner  (Read 529 times)

Ron

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Ride up Mt Werner
« on: July 19, 2010, 08:17:53 am »
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/95107/ride-up-mt-werner-with-ski-ra-and-finn#post_1234313

My friend Ira and I rode up to the Gondi yesterday.  A great and challenging ride. 


jim-ratliff

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 02:04:58 pm »

Wow.  2000 vertical feet is a ride.  Well done!  That exercise program of chasing the ice cream truck must be really working for you.
 ;D ;D You need to be careful, however, if you get fast enough that you are actually able to CATCH that ice cream truck  ;D ;D the fitness level might then take a nosedive. 


Must say that you bike looks even better "in the wild" than just the picture you posted.
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Ron

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2010, 02:18:42 pm »
Thanks Jim, my legs held up fine but aenerobic (sp) element was where I got killed. I don't want to say it was just altitude but on the short very steep climbs, it just burned you out you just can't replenish the O2 levels, on long climbs it was OK, you just drop gear and get into a nice slow cadence. You can do OK on those.  Ira has really trained for that and it shows. 

The bike color in "person" is really a sweet intense royal  blue with some metailic flake. I am very happy with it. The performance of the rear in climbing and descending was crazy good. It was so much different that I really had to modify the way I climbed and descended. the most dramatic difference was the absorption of the terrain, 6" rocks and roots were basically smotthed out so I was really able to ride faster and more aggesiively (for a gaper).  140mm up front and  5.5" on the rear. The fit of the bike is just fantastic. We went with the XL 21" frame and i was realy concerned with the size but the top to seat tube was the exact same as the trek but the crank is more forward, End result was that with a 90 stem, the fit is just right, I even ended up moving the seat back a few MM's. it weighs in at 27#.  When I upgrade the wheel set next spring, it should be about a pound lighter.

jim-ratliff

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2010, 03:23:14 pm »
I can easily believe it is mostly altitude.? I know how easily I get winded on the first few days of a ski trip, and then get a bit of acclimitization.

If IRA lives out there, then he is walking around with a lot more oxygen carrying red blood cells than you are.

You check with Lance, maybe he could give some pointers on how to tranfuse red blood cells when you reach the high country??? ?>:D

Lynn is finally getting me to understand that climbing hills isn't really about muscle, its finding a speed/workload where your body can aerobically maintain the level of exercise. I did a 45 mile ride in the Hudson valley yesterday and it was the first time that my "comfortable pedalling speed" actually resulted in me passing people going up hill, and there wasn't a single hill where I went too hard at the bottom and died before the top (that's my old anaerobic method of climbing).? However, what I call hills (at sea level) is NOTHING comparatively, you were climbing mountains at 10,000+ feet.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 05:51:03 pm by jim-ratliff »
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jim-ratliff

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2010, 03:45:18 pm »
All of my athletic background has been of the (1) type, playing basketball and baseball is all about fast twitch muscles and then a fast recovery from an anaerobic deficit.? A basketball game goes on for an hour or so, but the physical exertion is all in 15 second (or less bursts).? Now, since I am primarily interested in Aerobic conditioning associated with my advancing years, I am challenged to become more of a (2). I can go up hills very well for about 2-4 minutes, and then my legs just burn.? It's been a challenge to find an aerobic level to ride at from the bottom of the hill. Lynn, on the other had, was doing marathons and triathlons in her twenties and continued a level of exercise that built a preponderance of slow-twitch muscles, and she has a dramatic advantage when it comes to using all of those muscles for longer climb.? I marvel when my legs are burning and she says that hers never do!? She's like the Energizer bunny and just keeps on pedaling.


1. The Burst Power Enzyme System
The enzymes required for this reaction are depleted in less than two minutes. This reaction is called Anaerobic Glycolysis because it uses glucose without oxygen.

Glucose? 2ATP + 2 Lactate

To continue muscle usage requires the aerobic system to kick in. The aerobic system uses oxygen and sugar for fuel. Your ability to perform well after about two minutes of maximum exertion depends on the aerobic conditioning of your body.

2. The Endurance Enzyme System
There are three sources of ATP for aerobic muscle to use: carbohydrates, fats, and amino acid proteins. Carbohydrates metabolize the most efficiently and are therefore used first. If carbohydrates are not available, your body metabolizes fat and amino acid proteins. All three of these reactions are called Aerobic Glycolysis because they use glucose and oxygen:

1. Carbohydrate Metabolism: Glucose + 02? 36ATP + C02 + H20
2. Fat Metabolism: Fatty Acid + 02? 130 ATP + C02 + H20
3. Amino Acid Protein Metabolism: Amino Acids + 02? 15 ATP + C02 + H20

Your body stores glucose and fatty acids for these reactions. Your cardiovascular system provides a continuous supply of oxygen. Glycogen is stored in the muscles and liver in sufficient quantities for about two hours of strenuous exercise. You can extend this time by aerobic physical conditioning and high carbohydrate diet. After your glycogen stores are used up your body obtains its energy from fatty acid metabolism and amino acid protein metabolism. These reactions are not efficient, which consequently cause your strength and endurance to drop drastically.

EXERCISING AND BUILDING MUSCLES
Muscles change and develop with regular exercise but the effects differ, depending on whether you engage in strength, speed, or endurance training.

Strength and burst training cause the muscle fibers to enlarge. Individual muscle fibers increase in diameter as a result of an increase in intracellular protein fibrils.

Endurance training causes more blood vessel formation than does speed or strength training, which produces an increased capacity for aerobic metabolism within the muscle cell. This change is seen after a few weeks of training and is maximized in about three months. The aerobic enzymes that metabolize carbohydrates, fats, and proteins double.

It is important to develop your strength and speed systems, but if you want to continue past about two minutes of high intensity workouts, you need to have your aerobic systems developed.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 03:49:17 pm by jim-ratliff »
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midwif

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2010, 05:02:57 pm »
Exercise physiology 201 anyone?? >:D

We just got 101 and VERY good it was! ;D

Making fun a bit, but actually good to touch base with stuff I read LONG,LONG ago and only somewhat remember.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 06:03:48 pm by jim-ratliff »
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Ron

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2010, 05:13:16 pm »
very cool stuff, Interesting for sure. So make sure you carb up!  I probably should have done a few more Acellegels! :)  One that was in my back pouch exploded on my fall!  Ira lives on the front range so thats a little over 5K feet. It does help, but I don't want to take the easy out here, I need to improve.  When you see the fitness level of the folks out here, it's humbling to say the least.

jim-ratliff

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2010, 05:56:33 pm »
Exercise physiology 201 anyone?? >:D

We just got 101 and VERY good it was! ;D

Making fun a bit, but actually good to touch base with stuff I read LONG,LONG ago and only somewhat remember.

I have to admit that this was all new to me, nothing I ever ran into growing up.? I had no idea that there were fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle fibers, or which was used for what and how to foster the growth of one versus the other.  I just thought all muscles were pretty much the same.  :o :o
Of course, none of my basketball coaches ever said much about real stretching either, and looking back feel that was real unfortunate.
Wind sprints, running bleachers, directonal shuffles with some situps and pull-ups, but no stretching of the resultant muscles.? Oh well, hopefully coaches have gotten smarter.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 11:32:21 pm by jim-ratliff »
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jim-ratliff

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2010, 06:02:10 pm »
very cool stuff, Interesting for sure. So make sure you carb up! I probably should have done a few more Acellegels! :) One that was in my back pouch exploded on my fall! Ira lives on the front range so thats a little over 5K feet. It does help, but I don't want to take the easy out here, I need to improve. When you see the fitness level of the folks out here, it's humbling to say the least.

Actually, I think I need to do more longer rides as a way of exercising my bodies glycogen storage and retrieval.? I wonder if this is what Mike was saying about exercising longer at low VO max.?
I had been content with 90 minute rides figuring that out of that 90 minutes I had enough time at higher heart rates to be healthy, but thinking now that my next step might be to stretch the length of exercise and keep the heart rate lower for some rides.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 11:34:04 pm by jim-ratliff »
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Gary

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 08:37:59 am »
Seems to me that a good bloody mary gets my heart beat up and hell....a shot of Jack gives me sub human strength....

My hats off to anyone riding hard in them there hills! Nice photo's Ron....and Good on ya!

Best,
G

LivingProof

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2010, 03:19:35 pm »
What is in vogue today is interval training. The link below is a good introduction.

http://www.cptips.com/intervl.htm

I use a program from Bicycling Mag. There are a ton available on the net - google "bicycle interval training". Simply, you train your body to do higher levels of work. Hockey players line shifts are excellent examples of intervals. 3 lines go like hell for 2 minutes and then rest for 4.

Two days a week, I limit my ride time to about an hour and perform high intensity, short duration bursts followed by a period of rest. I ride with a heart rate monitor. One example is that there is a bridge where I climb, coast down, recover and then turn around and do it again, and again etc. Another is I ride for 7 minutes at a higher, not max heart rate, then recover and do this 7 times. Not fun! :P

Before starting, be warned that you should build 500 base miles of easy riding. Not a good program for anyone who just starting riding.

but, back to Ron's ride up the 'boat. That was some great riding and I salute anyone who does this 2000 ft climb in the Rockies. It's a tribute to all the work he's done. I had planned a century 100 mile ride this coming weekend in the area of Ithica NY. Just found out it involves 3000 ft of climbing. One or the other is do-able, not both at this time.

Ron

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2010, 07:10:57 am »
Mike, that's great training you do!  I agree about the intervals for sure. Your "bridge drill" is awesome!!!  great job.  I would take a look at the ride map, you may find the climb is not as bad as it sounds. It is going to be a total of 3K so if you take a look, you may find that its just a bunch of smaller climbs or longer climbs over a distance, in which case, you just drop gear and get into a good cadence. I would be more concerned with high-heat and himidity.  Either way, you are doing a great job. I don't know if I could do 100.

Ron

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2010, 07:28:39 am »

Now that I can believe!

Seems to me that a good bloody mary gets my heart beat up and hell....a shot of Jack gives me sub human strength....

My hats off to anyone riding hard in them there hills! Nice photo's Ron....and Good on ya!

Best,
G

jim-ratliff

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2010, 07:32:39 am »
Mike/All:
 
Your interval training is exactly what I am trying to understand. ?It's similar to the windsprints I used to get to run in high school basketball, maximum exertion for a brief period of time, a recovery period, repeat as long as the coach keeps blowing the whistle. ?We didn't have heart monitors because we were kids, but I'm sure it was 15-20 minutes with heart rates above 160, ?but do such drills develop Slow Twitch muscles necessary for endurance or do they build Fast Twitch muscles that are used for short bursts of greater strength. ?The 2 minutes hockey lines, for example , match pretty close the description that Fast Twitch muscles burn all of their burst power enzymes in about 2 minutes.

Lynn calls it "specificity of training". ?If I want to be able to run a Marathon, I don't do much sprinting, I focus on longer runs? ?if I eventually think I might want to ride a Century, then I need to be doing more 4-5 hour rides?
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jim-ratliff

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Re: Ride up Mt Werner
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2010, 07:38:10 am »

 I had planned a century 100 mile ride this coming weekend in the area of Ithica NY. Just found out it involves 3000 ft of climbing. One or the other is do-able, not both at this time.
Mike:
The fingers of land in between the lakes have some climbs, probably similar to your bridge climb. A bit steep, but not a long distance (I might guess 500-700 feet eleveation over 3/4 of a mile).  I admit I walked up a couple for 100 yards or so.? What about pre-positioning a car at the half way point (or a metric Century) so you can bail out if the full Century is too much.? Accomplishing a longer ride like that is very gratifying.
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."