The Scrapeless Wax

[byronm]

I noticed he..well..rambles a bit and the buffering is terrible. Like I said, not sure about the content as I am just learning. Is it true that skis out of the box like that are routinely tuned poorly?

[Svend]

I'm using the new SVST 150mm brushes and cork.  They're great because they're nice and wide for today's bigger boards.  I crayon the wax, cork it quickly, and then brush like crazy.  I use stainless stiff, stainless soft, brass, and horsehair.  I also use different riller bars to impart my own structures.  If a ski really needs a freshening up and I don't feel like getting a quick grind, I'll use the SkiVisions base planing tool with the ruby stones that cut very cleanly and don't create too much base fuzz.  Of course those create a lot of work afterward to get the bases back to where I like them.

Thanks HA.  The SVST brushes definitely look like the best-made; stainless housing....nice.  And I like the long handles that can hold two brushes on one -- no swapping. 

Some more questions:

I'm wondering why you're using mostly hard brushes like stainless, brass and horsehair, but no nylon?  Are you using only hard waxes? I understood that the metal brushes were used mainly for base cleaning and opening the structure; horsehair for cold temp wax brushing.

How do you find the durability of a corked-in application over iron-in? Still lasts as long?

SVST's site says the rotocork is used to apply flouro waxes.....do you use the cork for flouro, or regular hydrocarbon too?

And thanks for your comments on the importance of structure.  I'd never really given that a second thought, and had focused only on waxing, sharpening and base flatness.  Makes perfect sense though, wrt. ski performance.  The Swix and Holmenkol How-To guides both mention regular use of rilling tools, but I guess I just mentally chose to blank that section out, not wanting to over-complicate the task even more. 

Some folks make ski prep more work than it needs to be.

Max -- that's the whole idea of this thread.  Looking to make a pain-in-the-rear job quicker and easier, so guys like me who have to wax and tune a whole family's quiver of skis don't spend an entire evening hunched over the workbench. 

There's been a few threads on some of the ski boards over the past couple years that have debated the merits of using any wax at all. 

HA -- every time I'm gliding along a long flat traverse, and passing absolutely everyone else at twice their speed, many of them poling their way just to keep going, I'm thankful that I keep my skis well waxed.  As for better on-slope performance.....it goes without saying.  I can definitely feel the difference if my skis haven't been waxed in a while.  Long debate, that is, but won't get too deep into that either...

Cheers,

Svend

[Svend]

Is it true that skis out of the box like that are routinely tuned poorly?

Byron -- as Max said, it depends on the manufacturer.  Some are good, some not.  But keep in mind that some manufacturers may do a perfectly good tune, but it's the way their skis are tuned (edge bevels, structure, etc.) at the factory that may not agree with your preferences.  For example, Dynastar seems to tune their base bevel angles quite flat -- probably 0.5 degrees or less -- and there is nothing wrong with that, some skiers like it that way, and the tune may be perfectly well executed.  But for my taste it makes the edges kind of grabby.  I prefer a 1 degree base bevel to make the edge-to-edge transitions a bit smoother (I know what you're thinking -- how can a 1/2 degree make any difference? Trust me, you can feel it!).  So I always retune a new pair of skis to my own preferences, and reset the bevel angles the way I want. 

A good way to check if the edge angles are beveled the way you like them is to do what I've described in this thread:  http://www.realskiers.smfnew.com/index.php/topic,1984.0.html   See Reply #6, the comments on using a black felt marker on the steel edges. 

Time and experience will tell you what will work for you, and where and how you ski.  Then you can custom tune to your heart's content.   

[Svend]

Rotobrushes are great for prepping skis for a race. But for recreational skiing? That's a lotta work.

Really? Seems to me that it would save time.  A lot of it.  One quick 15 second pass with a rotobrush vs. 2 minutes or more with a hand brush....no contest....

[jbotti]

Two 3 second passes with a hand brush is even quicker and that is all you need for recreational skiing.

[byronm]

Thank you Svend, excellent information.
 
Clarified much of the tech talk re: * of bevel, base grinding, etc. as I follow these posts and learn.
 
Pondering, at my age, will likely not evolve into an pro skier or technician but should at least make an effort to understand good or bad equipment set up and how to fix or have fixed.
 
At a min., save some $$, help my skiing or understanding thereof ....and under the most exigent circumstances, serve as a handy alibi for sub par technique...should I be forced to stoop that low.   
 
 

[HighAngles]

Two 3 second passes with a hand brush won't do diddly for improving the texture and structure of your base.  As I said previously, my goal is to get my bases running fast WITHOUT wax.  Once they get to that point they're much easier to maintain over time.  Only really old coarse snow puts any real significant wear on the bases.

The point of the roto brushes is to speed up the process.  One pass with a stiff stainless roto brush and you'll see the obvious difference.  I chose the brushes I use because of their ability to improve my base texture and structure - it has nothing to do with waxing - so you kind of have to throw out the conventional advice out there on brushing.  My goal is to polish my base to the point that it looks waxed while having an appropriate consistent structure to keep the skis fast.  IMO structure plays a larger role in making a ski fast than the choice of wax.  Using the wrong structure for the conditions cannot be overridden with a correct choice of wax.  That's part of the reason I keep so many skis in my quiver - they are prepped individually for different snow conditions; from fine structures to coarse structures.

And yes, some would say I'm kind of fanatical about this stuff, but I also have limited time so that is what led me down the roto brush path.

[Svend]

The point of the roto brushes is to speed up the process.  One pass with a stiff stainless roto brush and you'll see the obvious difference.  I chose the brushes I use because of their ability to improve my base texture and structure - it has nothing to do with waxing - so you kind of have to throw out the conventional advice out there on brushing.  My goal is to polish my base to the point that it looks waxed while having an appropriate consistent structure to keep the skis fast.  IMO structure plays a larger role in making a ski fast than the choice of wax.  Using the wrong structure for the conditions cannot be overridden with a correct choice of wax.  That's part of the reason I keep so many skis in my quiver - they are prepped individually for different snow conditions; from fine structures to coarse structures.

HA -- your approach makes sense, and I can see the physics behind it and how it relates to ski performance.  One thing that isn't clear, is how you can change the structure without doing a base grind and starting fresh.  Maybe I'm not understanding the restructuring correctly, but doesn't the rilling tool cut or press new grooves? Once the structure grooves are in the base, either at the factory or from a base grind, seems to me you can't just run a rilling tool over it and create a whole different pattern of grooves.  The original structure is still there, and then you add more grooves.....after a couple of times doing that, don't you end up with a mish-mash of grooves with no pattern left?

That's part of the reason I keep so many skis in my quiver - they are prepped individually for different snow conditions; from fine structures to coarse structures.

Well, for those of us with a one or two ski quiver, I guess we're going have to work with what we've got.  Unless I'm not understanding how a rilling tool works, that probably means keeping the structure we've got in good shape with proper brushing, and using good ole wax to reduce friction on the snow to get good glide.....

Thank you Svend, excellent information.
 
Clarified much of the tech talk re: * of bevel, base grinding, etc. as I follow these posts and learn.
 
Pondering, at my age, will likely not evolve into an pro skier or technician but should at least make an effort to understand good or bad equipment set up and how to fix or have fixed.
 
At a min., save some $$, help my skiing or understanding thereof ....and under the most exigent circumstances, serve as a handy alibi for sub par technique...should I be forced to stoop that low.   

Hey Byron -- ski tuning isn't difficult. Good tools really help get the job done quicker and with great results.  Depending on how many skis you're taking care of, it doesn't even have to be time consuming.  The two main things to keep on top of are:  (1) keeping your edges sharp and free of burrs and nicks (quickly and easily done with a good file and diamond stone, and some good edge guides); and (2) keeping your bases in good shape by regular waxing and brushing (also easily done using our patented Scrapeless Wax technique....royalt ies to be paid to Jim Ratliff, Treasurer and Keeper of Intellectual Property).  None of us are pro skiers or technicians, but still take the time to keep on top of this stuff because it does matter.  At best, poorly tuned skis are frustrating and annoying to ski on; at worst, they are dangerous and can lead to a bad accident. 

[HighAngles]

Svend - you do understand the situation when dealing with a base structure - no, they're not easy to change.

Max - there's nothing I hate more than when my skis are obviously getting stuck in the snow and not gliding well.  I don't believe that good ski prep should be relegated only to the land of racers.

[jbotti]

I'm with Max on this one. It's about the law of dimishing returns. I wax, I scrape and brush just enough to keep the ski conditioned and so that they won't stick. There will still be times when I guess tomorrows temps incorrectly and if so and if I have too soft a wax on for really cold temps the skis will not glide all that well. Are you telling me that you get up each morning and take the snow temp and then wax and scrape and brush before going out? If not, you can still get stuck with skis that won't glide all that well.

Again the question is how much extra time and effort actually pays off in an improved skiing experience. Most days I can hardly notice that I just waxed versus the day before when I hadn't for a few days. If the difference was huge I might wax every night, but it isn't.

[Svend]

Svend - you do understand the situation when dealing with a base structure - no, they're not easy to change.

Thanks HA -- I appreciate all your input.  You've brought up some interesting points about the importance of structure and keeping it well maintained.  Will ponder my future approach to waxing and brushing.  I think I'll pull the trigger on some rotobrushes soon.  Starting with a brass and nylon combo seems like a logical intro.  I will check into corking the wax in vs. ironing in.  If I can avoid breathing in wax fumes, I'm all for it.

Are you telling me that you get up each morning and take the snow temp and then wax and scrape and brush before going out? If not, you can still get stuck with skis that won't glide all that well.

John, I presently wax about every 3rd day out.  I use mostly mid-range temp wax (red) which glides great from about -10C to +3C.  This covers about 3/4 of our ski days here in Ontario.  Every now and then it gets colder, and then I use a cold temp wax....maybe needs applying twice per season.  Ditto spring skiing -- warm temp wax needed maybe two or three applications.  If in doubt, I just use the red wax and go have fun.....  I get it wrong maybe once a winter....not a bad batting average. 

[Svend]

Quick update:  using my modified Swix method, I tried paper towels instead of the Swix Fiberlene, and to my surprise it actually worked better.  The Fiberlene is so thin that it tears if using only a single layer, so I have to double up.  And it gets saturated with wax after only a third of the ski is done, leaving too much wax on the last two-thirds of the ski.  And it's expensive, at over $8 a roll.  Paper towel is stronger, more absorbent, but still leaves a nice thin layer of wax on the base, and it's cheap.  I'll use up the Fiberlene I have left, and not bother buying it again.  Thanks to John and Max for that tip.