Author Topic: The Scrapeless Wax  (Read 1684 times)

Svend

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2012, 10:55:01 am »
Hey all....I'm resurrecting an old thread here, but hopefully informative.

I've been using the Swix method of scrapeless waxing lately, for the later part of last season, and this season too.  For description of the method, see page 5 of the tech manual:  http://www.swixsport.com/dav/31b9fbec65.pdf, Fiberlene method.

This has been a huge time saver, as I have 7 pairs of skis to keep humming, and with a business and two active teenage daughters on the go, any time saver is gold in my books.  I'd guess it has cut my time spent waxing almost in half.  Gotta like that!

However....it wasn't a full two-thumbs-up.  I found that by following what Swix recommends (ie. crayoning softened wax on, then running the iron with Fiberlene over the ski in a single pass), the wax didn't last as long as a traditional hot wax and scrape.  With the latter, the wax would hold for about 3 ski days before I'd reapply.  But with the Fiberlene method, the bases would look dry after only 1 or 2 days out.  No time saving there, as I'd have to wax more frequently.

Also, at the start of the iron-in pass with Fiberlene, for say the first 10 inches or so at the ski's tip, the paper would absorb almost all the wax at the start of the pass and leave almost nothing behind.  I guess the new dry paper would just suck up all the wax, but as the iron progressed along the ski and the paper became saturated with wax, it would then leave a nice thin layer.

So to improve the durability and get around the dry patch problem, I've modified the Swix method slightly, and am doing something similar to what John described in his original post; sort of a combination traditional hot wax / Fiberlene method:

1) Drip molten wax onto bases (sparingly, not an excessive amount, but enough to cover with a thin uniform layer; practice will tell you how much to drip on); then iron in without using Fiberlene, making three complete passes up and down the ski to really get the PTEX warm and absorb the wax.

2) Do a single slow pass (20 seconds from tip to tail) with the iron with a piece of Fiberlene between iron and base; this evens out the wax, picks up dirt (a lot!), and takes up excess wax.  I use a double layer of the paper, because a single layer is too thin and I end up just ripping it.

3) Take the now-saturated piece of Fiberlene and do a brief short pass over the tip again to deposit a thin layer where the paper left the base dry.

4) Remove paper and discard; do a final pass with the iron to even out the wax (this is probably overkill, but it makes it feel like a more thorough job).

5) Let cool and brush briefly with the appropriate brush to open up some structure; the first couple of runs will take off whatever excess wax is left on there, but the brush grooves will still give decent glide.

6) Go skiing!!!

I'm finding that this has really improved how long a coat of wax lasts, and am now back to waxing after every third day.  While this modified method adds a bit of time (maybe a minute per ski) over what Swix recommends, there is still far less time involved than the traditional method, and almost no mess to clean up -- just a few granules of wax from the brush, but no scrapings.  Nice!  Uses much less wax, too.

As an aside, it's amazing how much dirt the paper picks up out the bases.  The leading edge of the paper is typically black with dirt, esp. when we've been out in soft spring snow.

Next up -- rotobrushes! Gotta make this task even quicker.  Time to go shopping....

Cheers, and I hope you all find this helpful.

Svend
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 11:07:03 am by Svend »

Svend

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2012, 11:52:12 am »
I think heavy white paper towels work better than fiberlene.

That's a good tip.  Any particular brand? I'm sure it's much cheaper too -- Fiberlene is expensive, for what looks just like dense paper towel. 

I'm the lazy guy that came up with the method John described in the OP.

Good one! I was delighted when I read that post last year.  It has saved me hours in the workshop.  What JB wrote got me checking into it more, I found what Swix were doing, and now seem to have settled on a combination of your method and the Swix one.  Works well for me, and I'm sticking with it!

I'll still wax every 3rd day.  The girls are so used to well-tuned skis, that if something is off they let me know in short order.  "Dad! My skis aren't gliding right.  Did you screw up the wax temp again?!" "Dad! My ski's tips are grabbing! Did you forget to detune them again?".......sigh....  ::)

« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 11:54:22 am by Svend »

jbotti

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2012, 12:21:08 pm »
I actually now do a modified scrapeless wax. I put on slightly more wax than I would for a scrapeless, and it spreads easier and quicker. Then I give a very quick scrape in the morning and one pass of the brush. Both methods are easy and time saving.

Svend

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2012, 03:14:28 pm »
Max, for hard snow carving the detuning is not needed.  But the grooming at our home hill is not the best, and we get a lot of pushed around snow, crud and bumps.  I find that detuning helps the edges, esp. tails, release more readily, be less hooky, and makes the skis easier to change direction quickly in that kind of snow.  Basically helps make the skis go where we want them to, instantly.


ToddW

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2012, 03:52:23 pm »
I do the paper towel thing too.  I think I got it from one of Max's posts on another forum years ago.

In the full spirit of lazy waxing, between 0*F and 30*F I generally don't wax.  On those days, I just do a quick check or touch up of the edges each evening after skiing.

30-35 I use cheap universal hydrocarbon wax daily

35-45 or in rain, low fluo universal like swix F4 daily

45-70 dominator butter on top of F4

for old snow below 0, I'll probably be lazy unless the day before convinced me to apply CH4.

Basically I wax if I expect significant moisture or rapid changes in moisture content over the distance of a few ski lengths, as occurs with tree shadows on a warm, sunny day or fresh, moist powder on the edge of a groomed trail.  I keep a stick of F4 and some butter in my ski locker to adjust on the fly if I've been too lazy.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 06:34:38 pm by ToddW »

Svend

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2012, 06:06:51 pm »
Good on ya, Max. 

Gary

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2012, 06:11:17 am »
I've always detuned down to point of contact...by that I mean, I just take off the sharpness slightly.

I'm curious Max....if you or any here tune tips and tails...what kind of guides do you use to accurately tune those tips and tails to the matching edge and base angles. I know with my guides, they are only good to POC.

G
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 06:18:35 am by Gary »

beastieboy

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2012, 06:43:03 pm »
@JBotti - personally I don't think it is a good idea to iron fluoro waxes, unless you have a great ventilation system.  Google PFC's and flouro wax, or PFOA and fluoro wax.  You should get a reasonable number of hits that explain the situation. 

jbotti

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2012, 11:23:45 pm »
I'm not using flouro wax but rather either base prep or every day training wax. I have read about the fumes from flouro wax. Not good.

HighAngles

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2012, 05:28:47 pm »
It costs a bit more, but I've gone roto - roto-cork and roto-brushes.  Full wax job in less than 10 minutes - no iron or scraping  required - just a handy power drill with speed control.  I use up a lot less wax too.

Svend

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2012, 08:07:07 pm »
It costs a bit more, but I've gone roto - roto-cork and roto-brushes.  Full wax job in less than 10 minutes - no iron or scraping  required - just a handy power drill with speed control.  I use up a lot less wax too.

OK -- details please! 
-- Brand of brushes preferred?
-- How do you get the wax to penetrate deep into the bases without the iron? Cork, of course, but does it last? Isn't iron-in better for penetration and durability?
-- What method? Crayon the wax on; roto-cork it in; brush off....?

I'm looking to go Rotobrush too, but was thinking of using the roto brushes only after the Fiberlene hot wax application.  No iron sounds appealing, if the wax job is a good one and lasts as long as a hot wax.  Looking forward to hearing about this....

Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 08:08:58 pm by Svend »

HighAngles

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2012, 10:37:24 pm »
There's been a few threads on some of the ski boards over the past couple years that have debated the merits of using any wax at all.  I'm not going to get into that here, but I'll only say that at this point I believe that structure and especially "texture" of your bases are more important than wax.  If your bases look like crap without wax then they will eventually ski like crap again once you've worn off the top layer of wax.  With meticulous structuring (starting with machine grinds and then lots of brushing with different brushes, and work with a riller bar) you can achieve what I call a smooth texture base with structure.  The more you work the base the better it gets and roto brushes really take a lot of the work out of it.  My bases look like they've been waxed even when they haven't been waxed in forever.  I really only use the wax as a "lubricant" to aid in the brushing and structuring.

It was common many years ago that waxing a base was required to protect the base material.  Today's advanced sintered bases do not require that level of care.  Your skis will be long gone before your base dies from neglect (lack of wax).


HighAngles

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2012, 10:41:20 pm »
OK -- details please! 
-- Brand of brushes preferred?
-- How do you get the wax to penetrate deep into the bases without the iron? Cork, of course, but does it last? Isn't iron-in better for penetration and durability?
-- What method? Crayon the wax on; roto-cork it in; brush off....?

I'm looking to go Rotobrush too, but was thinking of using the roto brushes only after the Fiberlene hot wax application.  No iron sounds appealing, if the wax job is a good one and lasts as long as a hot wax.  Looking forward to hearing about this....

Thanks!

I'm using the new SVST 150mm brushes and cork.  They're great because they're nice and wide for today's bigger boards.  I crayon the wax, cork it quickly, and then brush like crazy.  I use stainless stiff, stainless soft, brass, and horsehair.  I also use different riller bars to impart my own structures.  If a ski really needs a freshening up and I don't feel like getting a quick grind, I'll use the SkiVisions base planing tool with the ruby stones that cut very cleanly and don't create too much base fuzz.  Of course those create a lot of work afterward to get the bases back to where I like them.

byronm

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2012, 06:41:24 pm »
I am learning here...is this representative of what I should do or have done....

or does someone have a better link...one sort of in the vein of "idiots guide to"; tuning and maintaining skis?
 
thx.....

HighAngles

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Re: The Scrapeless Wax
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2012, 06:55:53 pm »
^^^^^^^^ The guy that posted that series of videos is a regular on Epic Ski.  Those videos are so slow (and boring) that he loses me completely.  I'm not even sure if the content has any merit.