Author Topic: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise  (Read 1864 times)

jim-ratliff

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2009, 10:30:29 am »
Do I over analyze, certainly. But it's fair to argue that in the real world many people "dumb down" complex issues, and, I think it's fair to offer a counter point.

LP:? I'm not sure, did you just refer to me in a dumbing down context?? ?;D ;D
Anyway, I'm willing to keep on stirring the pot.

I'm not sure what your "counter point" is?? No one is arguing against stronger ankles or the role of the ankle in initiating tipping or the role of tipping in initiating turns.? But notwithstanding my facetious post, I do believe that the real value of the ankle exercises is strengthening the muscles that control the ankle.? I know when they do alignments at HH camps they check for limited range of motion, but as long as you have the minimal range of motion then developing INCREASED range of motion shouldn't have any effect (because inside a boot you can't use it).

Counterpoint:? I noticed last year that, when skiing with my Watea 84's on some really crusty sun-baked snow at SnowBasin, my ankles were really sore by the end of the day.? I assume that this is becxause I didn't have the ankle strength to hold the skis on edge with muscles and so my foot was collapsing my ankle against the side of the boot.? I need more strength to hold the tipping in the boot, not more range of motion so I can tip more?? Tipping more is exerting more force in the tipping movement, not tipping farther.? Tipping with more force implies strength, not range of motion?? Achieving high "snow to ski" edge angles doesn't require greater tipping in the boot, it just requires continued tipping force and corresponding greater angulation?

In fact, range of motion is probably more important with softer boots like Ron uses than with stiffer boots like you use, because softer boots will allow more range of motion inside the boot (like 3mm instead of 2)?

Quote from: jim
And, just to be clear, I am not at all upset and I think overanalyzing is a good thing.? I too do it all the time. (or at least thats what Lynn tells me)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 10:38:43 am by jim-ratliff »
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jim-ratliff

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2009, 10:55:33 am »

By they way, I did put my ski boots on to see what my feet said.   ;D ;D ;D

They said "you forgot to take your Harb footbeds out of your bike shoes".   ::) ::)
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Ron

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2009, 11:20:50 am »
well said! Fully agreed. That's why I do tons of calf presses, 3 modes- feet out, feet in and straight ahead they work different muscles of the feet and calves. Very important. Front muscle of shin is really important as it aids when compressing forward. Especiallly with stiff boots in off-piste skiing, its requires a lot of additonal energy and balance. 

Thinking too much?  Yes its a horrible human trait that often creates more confusion, doubt, fear and complication to the truth of the matter.

LivingProof

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2009, 11:56:28 am »
Do I over analyze, certainly. But it's fair to argue that in the real world many people "dumb down" complex issues, and, I think it's fair to offer a counter point.

LP:? I'm not sure, did you just refer to me in a dumbing down context?? ?;D ;D
Anyway, I'm willing to keep on stirring the pot.

I'm not sure what your "counter point" is?? No one is arguing against stronger ankles or the role of the ankle in initiating tipping or the role of tipping in initiating turns.? But notwithstanding my facetious post, I do believe that the real value of the ankle exercises is strengthening the muscles that control the ankle.? I know when they do alignments at HH camps they check for limited range of motion, but as long as you have the minimal range of motion then developing INCREASED range of motion shouldn't have any effect (because inside a boot you can't use it).

Counterpoint:? I noticed last year that, when skiing with my Watea 84's on some really crusty sun-baked snow at SnowBasin, my ankles were really sore by the end of the day.? I assume that this is becxause I didn't have the ankle strength to hold the skis on edge with muscles and so my foot was collapsing my ankle against the side of the boot.? I need more strength to hold the tipping in the boot, not more range of motion so I can tip more?? Tipping more is exerting more force in the tipping movement, not tipping farther.? Tipping with more force implies strength, not range of motion?? Achieving high "snow to ski" edge angles doesn't require greater tipping in the boot, it just requires continued tipping force and corresponding greater angulation?

In fact, range of motion is probably more important with softer boots like Ron uses than with stiffer boots like you use, because softer boots will allow more range of motion inside the boot (like 3mm instead of 2)?

Quote from: jim
And, just to be clear, I am not at all upset and I think overanalyzing is a good thing.? I too do it all the time. (or at least thats what Lynn tells me)

Hi Jim,

My analytic thinker brother! As my old boss would say, "Let's have a dialogue" which means actively listening and questioning for clarity.

I knew "dumbing down" would get me trouble with someone, and, honestly, no one is the specific subject nor the intent to offend. There is a saying I'm in agreement with 95% of the time: "Simple solutions to complex problems are wrong". ?We all try to make skiing instruction easy and simple; in fact, skiing is a sport of dynamic body positions. I hesitate to use terms like "always" and "never".
Having said that, I'll never cycle just breathing through my eyes. There is not really a "counter point" in my last post, what I'm claiming is a anyone's simple right to challenge what others post. But included in that challenge should be informational material explaining the difference, hence, I tried to explain foot exercises in terms of PMTS fundamentals like tipping.

With respect to your experience with tired ankles last year, that's very similar to what I experience early in the ski year only I would offer my feet are tired. More specifically, the muscles/connection tissue in my feet are tired. This spoke to the thought that we have ski specific muscles that, unexercised, will fatigue. So performing jbotti like exercises should help prevent foot fatigue. Skiing in uneven challenging snow conditions requires constant automatic corrections by the feet and the rest of the body, so all body parts fatigue quicker.

There is no doubt in my mind that the more actively the foot tries to rotate and pushes against the inside liner of your ski boot, your amount of tipping as seen in the knee will increase. Also, the more you try to rotate your locked foot, the more tired you foot becomes. Try a dryland exercise of tipping using your knee only and then do it with a real dynamic rolling of the outside of your foot. In Harb's Essentials, he uses a dryland tipping board to teach getting to bigger angles, but, you need to put more effort into it.

Range of Motion in ski boots is a little more complex, as either internal or external ROM is possible. Ski boots have a forward flex rating system. Harb believes in rigid boots to promote tipping, most in PSIA tout softer boots. Internally, you really don't want a range of motion other than to wiggle your toes, but, most people can compress their liners a little.

So, is "tip more" a dumbing down or is the above over-analysis. We all have the truth. To your own self be true.

jbotti

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2009, 11:57:38 am »
Let me first say that action is better than no action, so that the fact that we have spurrred some activity annd emotion I view as good. If we can't ski we might as well talk about it!!!

I think in discussing this we have come upon an interesting concept. Essentailly we are asking about the role of strength vs. flexibility. I would say in answer to that that they are absolutelly inseparable. Pure strength without flexibility is not really useful for athletic movement. No WC skier is attempting to get so large that they lose their flexibility. The best exercises to build functional strength are and have always been body weight exercises that use muscles in the kinetic poistions that we use them in activity (gymnasts who are pound for pound as strong as anyone on the planet do only body weight exrecises, and they mainatin and work on their flexibility).

Back to my exercise, I don't know if one is developing more strength or more flexibility from ths exercise. What we are doing for sure is sretching or expanding the ankles ability to supprt weight (strength) in a variety of different positions by expandig the range of motion (flexibility).

For those that have tried it, (Todd and LP) don't lose faith. It does hurt and it will get easier and I do believe that you will see significant results from it in your skiing.

For those that haven't tried it, you might when you ski bumps with me LP and Todd and we are constantly waiting for you at the bottom :D!! Obviously if you want to go slow, not doing these will help ;D

LivingProof

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2009, 12:19:21 pm »
If we can't ski we might as well talk about it!!!

For those that haven't tried it, you might when you ski bumps with me LP and Todd and we are constantly waiting for you at the bottom :D!! Obviously if you want to go slow, not doing these will help ;D

The Botti challenge "Meet me at the bottom"....your bad John!

If we can't ski, we might as well talk about it!! - HMMM...Reminds me of sex!

jim-ratliff

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2009, 12:21:03 pm »
OK, now I have something to truly disagree with.

Quote from: Mike
There is a saying I'm in agreement with 95% of the time: "Simple solutions to complex problems are wrong".
My experience with small to mid ?business computer software is that "those that create complex systems just didn't think about the problem long enough to find the simple approach". ?Corollary from Einstein would be the oft touted view that "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction.'

Quote from: jbotti
Range of Motion in ski boots is a little more complex, as either internal or external ROM is possible.
I'm not sure what "external ROM" is when we are talking about the ankle or feet? ?What I have been referring to is that constrained ability to articulate the ankles inside the boot and actually shift our center of force slightly to the inside or the outside of the center of the boot and therefore the center of the ski (and then the upper body counter-balances this offset force. ?To apply any more force to the boot requires that we 'lean against the cuff of the boot' and I'm not sure that is really tipping?


Quote from: LivingProof
There is no doubt in my mind that the more actively the foot tries to rotate and pushes against the inside liner of your ski boot, your amount of tipping as seen in the knee will increase.
I'm not sure, but I don't think I agree with this (ignoring the word rotate). You can only transfer your weight at the ankle a small amount. Any additional force you apply against the side of the boot is because you are leaning your body against the boot cuff?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 12:42:59 pm by jim-ratliff »
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Gary

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2009, 12:22:16 pm »
Just want to make a point as well....all exercise is good....specific sports related exercise is awesome......as far as waiting at the bottom of the bump run....I believe that comment refers to being in shape as opposed to who can ski a bump run faster...which doesn't necessarily mean well or fluid or even smooth.

Mike, as far as PMTS .....PMTS does not have exclusive rights to high edge angle...nor does it mean that all PMTS skiers that have soft boots are PSIA skiers...

High edge angle are a product of many ski disciplines and produce outstanding results in many snow conditions. Having said that, if one is to increase the amount of terrain we explore, trees, steep bumps, deep pow, crud....the value of high edge angle becomes a bit less critical and soft edges, more flat skis in transitions, and less body angles have their place. Stiff boots are so different skier to skier....it's so subjective to ones physical attributes and stance in the boots. As skiers skills improve, moving up to better fitting boots towards the upper end performance boots, boots need to be modified to accommodate the physical and personal preferences of the individual...usuall y being the more advanced skier with this level of boot.

Harold taught me so much in my evolution to being the skiere I am today....as has John Clendenin.....my mind is open to what I see work and for those that have skied with me know my strengths and my weaknesses....and I'm willing to put myself out there with an open mind to exchange ideas, modify boots, find binding locations, and not take for granite any preconceived conditions as the finite laws of skiing...no not me not now....but hey...so what if I'm the last one to the bottome of the bump run....i can do it all day long...I have ankles of iron!

Best, Gary
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 12:48:49 pm by Gary »

jim-ratliff

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2009, 12:41:55 pm »
I WILL admit that I started doing the ankle exercises (fewer reps) last night for a different reason. ?John's post got me thinking that since I have been riding bike more this summer (minimal use of ankle other than slight extension of toes pulling through the bottom of the stroke and lot less concern with balance) ?that his exercises would be good for ankle range of motion. ?And, getting a little bit more ankle strength as a side effect would be a good thing.
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jim-ratliff

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2009, 01:00:55 pm »
LivingProof:

I have a question for the engineer in you that I can't answer but that sort of summarizes my thinking about tipping force.

I weigh 186.? If I am balanced and vertical on a pair of skis, how much tipping force is applied if I offset my weight 1/8" to the right of the center of both skis (ignore the fact that I'll fall over if some external action doesn't counter the force).

If I am skiing balanced and with a 10 degree edge angle to the snow, will my weight be offset from the center of the ski or will I be balanced and centered on the ski?
If I then again offset my weight 1/8" to the right how much tipping force will be applied to my skis (that are already tipped)?

My summary. Tipping to high edge angles (which I will admit that I can't do) is more about not blocking/limiting the force somewhere in the kinetic chain than it is about applying "more force" in the tipping? I think there is a tremendous amount of tipping force available at the foot with fairly subtle weight shifts.?

And I think I am all tipped out.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 01:21:55 pm by jim-ratliff »
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jbotti

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2009, 01:34:22 pm »
Jim, I can't get all engineery with you, but I can tell you that anyone that is producing the High G turn, with big edge angles at speed pretty much says the same thing, it requires huge committment to tipping and huge committment to counter balance and counter rotation and there is abolutely nothing passive about it. Watch any good skier carve tight turns at speed in gates (where thhey need to reach maximum angles) and you will a skier that is real tired at the bottom. The level of intensity in tipping that occurs with anyone that is able to do this is well beyond what observers (that can't do it ) notice.

I can also tell you about one of my first times skiing with my friend Thor Kallerud who was the Head Mens Technical Coach for the US Ski team. We spent the day working on getting higher angles and on really tipping the feet and ankles. Working on getting higher and higer edge angles is very hard work and exhausting on the body, even for WC Racers (and incredibly so for me).

I guess my point is that I'm not sure your analysis is correct that "Tipping to high edge angles (which I will admit that I can't do) is more about not blocking the force somewhere in the kinetic chain than it is about applying "more force" in the tipping"

LivingProof

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2009, 01:46:40 pm »
LivingProof:

I have a question for the engineer in you that I can't answer but that sort of summarizes my thinking about tipping force.

I weigh 186.? If I am balanced and vertical on a pair of skis, how much tipping force is applied if I offset my weight 1/8" to the right of the center of both skis (ignore the fact that I'll fall over if some external action doesn't counter the force).

If I am skiing balanced and with a 10 degree edge angle to the snow, will my weight be offset from the center of the ski or will I be balanced and centered on the ski?
If I then again offset my weight 1/8" to the right how much tipping force will be applied to my skis (that are already tipped)?

My summary. Tipping to high edge angles (which I will admit that I can't do) is more about not blocking/limiting the force somewhere in the kinetic chain than it is about applying "more force" in the tipping? I think there is a tremendous amount of tipping force available at the foot with fairly subtle weight shifts.?

And I think I am all tipped out.

Jim,
I'm sure the world waits to see how these questions are answered.

First, I'd like a little more data Captain Kirk. PMTS basics would have your weight mostly on one ski, except for brief time when you are changing edges. Your weighted ski is referred to as your stance ski, the other is your free foot. The free foot is the one that actively tips so that's the only leg you have to worry about. Your stance leg is a dumb guy who will just keep supporting your weight. In your basic question, are you standing on 1 or 2 skis?

Second, Do you have a copy of Essentials of Skiing?


Gary

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2009, 02:31:40 pm »
Certainly J at high edge angle turns the body uses counter to keep the forces of gravity to keep the skier from falling over. Not sure if not blocking or blocking the body in the kinetic chain Jim is referring to countering the forces of gravity.  ???

Jim....please splain more without percentages.....

Mike again....I believe you could be limiting your ability to be totally comfotable in off piste conditions (ungroomed anything) if you totally rely on just the big toe...
If you watch Harold ski on video....you'll see he uses all 4 edges of his skis as all great skiers do.....remember Harold does talk about 2 footed skiing, releases, etc....

Still....whatever keeps you turning and hungrey for more on the mountain albeit BTE or LTE...it's all good!  ;D

G


jim-ratliff

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2009, 02:38:48 pm »
Quote from: LivingProof
First, I'd like a little more data Captain Kirk. PMTS basics would have your weight mostly on one ski, except for brief time when you are changing edges.

Second, Do you have a copy of Essentials of Skiing?


Yeah, I have that book and a couple of other videos by Lito Tejada-Flores

I prop my skis on the book and the videos so that they will become better skis.? ?;D

Lito's videos on "Breakthrough on Shaped Skis" are where I got introduced to Harald Harb.? Lito's videos opened the door on how to not be a Terminal Intermediate after I had gotten frustrated with sporadic resort lessons.? Lito introduced the Phantom Turn and credited Harald with explaining it to Lito (and others) back when both were instructors at Aspen.? Harald's books were the next logical step.



Jim? ? ;D ;D
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 04:09:35 pm by jim-ratliff »
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jim-ratliff

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Re: Improve Ankle Flexibility: Great Exercise
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2009, 02:41:46 pm »
Yes, it was countering and counter-balancing that I was referring to as the upper kinetic chain supporting what is going on down at the feet. But also the legs, since not agressively flexing the inside leg will block the tipping?

And my humble perception is that high level skiers exert a lot more force and energy from the knees up than the knees down, but it all starts below the knees.
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