Author Topic: To Helmet or not to helmet (that's an easy question). (Read 547 times)

jim-ratliff · « **on:** November 25, 2008, 09:47:27 am »

Gary raised an interesting point, so I thought I would start the helmet rolling.

I wear helmets for biking and for skiing.

1. I took a fall on my bike this summer that knocked me unconscious (or I fainted and then fell, I have no pre-event memory at all).? I completely **** my bike helmet all the way through the foam and the plastic for about 8 inches.? I was out about 15 minutes, and went along with the paramedics recommendation to go to the emergency room.? The head scan was completely negative, no damage at all.? My daughter-in-law, while training for the Marine Corps Marathon, got run over by a biker at 25mph and broke her collarbone.? She also hit her head due to the impact and suffered bruising and bleeding on the brain that was a concern for a while.? Having such an accident is a long shot, having a helmet on "just in case" is as wise as buying car insurance.? No one expects to have a car accident, but we all buy insurance just the same. (no, I am not advocating that runners wear helmets, but the two happened close together and the different results struck me.)? Other than needing to buy a new helmet, I wasn't injured.

2. I can't begin to count the number of times I have been hit in the helmet by other people's skis while walking, while riding shuttles from the parking lot, while walking to the lift from the hotel.

3. I have taken at least one memorable fall while skiing when I slipped on a patch of ice.? Usually I fall on my side, but this time I fell rearward with enough force that I remember my head bouncing.? No aftereffects whatsoever, not even a headache.

4. I use a SmartWool helmet beanie, and the helmet is always warmer than any stocking cap or anything else I have worn, and this is especially true if it is windy.? With newer helmets and the adjustable headbands, it is now very easy to make the helmet slightly larger or tighter based on the thickness of what you want to wear under the helmet, if anything.

5. I can't think of a single disadvantage of wearing a helmet.

Ron · « **Reply #1 on:** November 25, 2008, 10:56:41 am »

Too Funny! This is probably the hottest, most replied to thread over at epic, right behind "why snowboarders suck"! it all boils down to personal preference. There's no good reason not to wear one but since it doesn't pose a threat to others who do, let the skier/rider beware.

jbotti · « **Reply #2 on:** November 25, 2008, 11:14:46 am »

I agree on the personal preference to some degree on snow. Cycling is a different story. I am on the bike 5-6 days a week and still race a little bit. I am always shocked when I see people cycling witout a helmet. That is just insanity. Concrete and asphalt are hard and in most falls on a bike the head hits the pavement.

Getting back to helmets for snowsports, I think the statistics are pretty clear that you are always better off with a helmet. Still I see many great skiers that will just never wear one (unless racing). Harald Harb is one. Now Harald actually falls about once every 2-3 years so I can undrstand why he sees no need to wear a helmet. Most mortals are better off with one on.

Lastly, now that I have a bluetooth helmet (deeply discounted on sale) and this year I will be able to answer my phone by pressing a button on my ear piece, there is absolutely nothing lsot wearing a helmet!!

Ron · « **Reply #3 on:** November 25, 2008, 11:21:39 am »

Good to hear from you John, thanks for the chuckle. Any days on the snow yet?

Glenn · « **Reply #4 on:** November 25, 2008, 11:38:45 am »

I grew up without em; I started skiing in the late 1980's. In my teens I bought it many times....HARD too. Maybe I was lucky..or maybe it was just the way the wind was blowing. It's just not my preference to wear one. I don't personally associate skiing with a helmet. Could that change? Sure could. I've learned to never say never.

We had a guy come to our office multiple times to do first aid training. He was fulltime EMT and a trainer. On the weekend: **** ski patroller! He was actually AGAINST making helmets mandatory at ski areas. Apparently, when they started making helmets mandatory for kids riding bikes, the rates of injuries went up signifcantly. The kids thought because they had a helmet on, they were less likely to get hurt...so they did more risky things. He and many patrollers were worried that same trend would translate to skiing. That was his train of thought; I found it interesting.

Again, it's a personal choice. I wear my lid when I ride my ATV and I've been wearing my seatbelt since before it became the law. I think these choices should be up to people.

Svend · « **Reply #5 on:** November 25, 2008, 12:46:09 pm »

Jim,

After a fall that I took last winter, I am a firm believer in helmets.? I was skiing down a slope with icy patches on a heavily overcast day -- one of those eastern gray days when there is no relief evident in the terrain -- everything flat.? You couldn't see the bumps until you were on top of 'em.? Well I hit a bump that I didn't see, compensated coming off of it OK, but hit a patch of ice on the other side.? So, like your fall, rather than falling sideways, my feet went out from under me forwards, I flew up into the air and landed flat on my back.? Apparently, according to my kids, I caught great air and had lots of hang time (very sympathetic?

).? I hit the back of my head on the ice with enough impact that must have knocked me out for a few seconds, as all I remember of the entire event was opening my eyes and seeing the sky.? No memory of the fall at all, or even going over the bump.? Consequences were limited to a stiff neck and a headache and aching body, but I was able to get up straight away and ski to the lodge for a break, and ski the rest of day again.? I am convinced that had I not been wearing a helmet, it would have been a tow behind the Ski-Doo and a ride in the boo-boo truck for me, with a significant concussion or worse.? Anyone who has ever been ice skating and/or played shinny hockey will know that if you whack your head on the ice without a helmet, you're probably getting carried off on a stretcher.? I'd never ski without one, and you're right, they're warm and comfortable, even at minus 20 deg. and howling wind.

BR,
Svend

Gary · « **Reply #6 on:** November 25, 2008, 01:08:01 pm »

I'm guessing that those statistics on accidents are pretty weak....just saying that did accidents on bicycles, BMX, off road riding go up when the athlete started wearing helmets....

AND if you are the best skier in the kingdom and never fall....I was on my first Helli trip in Whistler 2 seasons ago and I was talking with the guide when we unloaded from the copter and he said drop in behind me. Well he took off and I closed the gap and was skiing 2 ski Lengths in heavy snow 8" deep. After about 1000 vertical he decided to stop not knowing I was 2 ski Lengthss behind him making these sweet links to his turns. There was no signal or brake lights, he never turned around to look behind him...he just pulled up and stopped...in 8" of heavy wet snow....he stopped and I skied right over the top of him. Fortunately he was not injured but proceed to say he had been guiding for 18 years and has never been hit or fallen....well there ya go....you Can get whacked from behind, or even standing in line. At least the helmet offers some protection, for sure some warmth....

But hey....I wax my top skins so cleaning up after any disaster is as easy as rinsing them off. $:-\$

I hope to keep skiing for many years to come and protecting my noggin just might afford that pleasure...well at least for me, Svend, John, Jim and Ron.....

Not suggesting it should be law..just ...if it just makes sense....but hey....that's for each of us to figure out, why, when and where!

Best,
G

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #7 on:** November 25, 2008, 03:25:01 pm »

Quote from: Gary on November 25, 2008, 01:08:01 pm

AND if you are the best skier in the kingdom and never fall....

Best,
G

Gary, I may have missed the point of your post a bit.

Are you saying that since you are the best skier in the kingdom others better wear helmets because you are going to run them over??

Jim

midwif · « **Reply #8 on:** November 25, 2008, 04:18:01 pm »

Except for the horrible "helmet hair", I have found helmets to be surprisingly comfortable.
We initially bought helmets for the entire family after hearing of two young deaths in the northeast. Both head injuries.
Now, if tramdock would just have the "bluetooth" enabled helmet for less than $100, then I would be VERY PLEASED.
I could call Ron or Jim and have them type my TR's as they occur!!!!

Perry · « **Reply #9 on:** November 25, 2008, 04:56:30 pm »

Anything that helps prevent the mushy brain from coming into hard contact with the skull is generally a good thing!

Having worked 14 years in the ER and seeing the results of brain to skull impact, I can't justify skiing without one.

As a bald skier, I was worried that my noggin would be cold, Not true! I have an adjustable vent that works great and when it is really cold, I wear a thin cap as a liner. AND - I have no problem with helmet hair!!!!!!! Imagine that.

Philpug · « **Reply #10 on:** November 25, 2008, 08:52:46 pm »

You won't catch me wearing a helmet....
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Thats because I ski faster than you

jbotti · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2008, 08:53:44 pm »

Ron, unfortunately the answer is no. I am headed to Utah for a 2 day trip on Dec 4 and 5, and it appears that Tahoe will get hit around Thanksgiving. If all goes well I could have 5 days in before the Holidays.

I am anxiously waiting or the Argos Review when you finally get them out in the right conditions!!

Ron · « **Reply #12 on:** November 26, 2008, 07:25:11 am »

replies to all:

Glen, you know I love you man' (in an acceptable, manly-way

) but those stats are pure BS. No point in debating them. Every study in the world shows that helmets and skiing/snowboarding save lives and at least reduce the severity of injuries. If yo don't want a helmet, that's your perogative.

Lynn, helmet hair is cool! The messier the better! Dont' worry about a blue tooth enabled helmet, It will just make you use the phone too much!

Perry- cool and I hope Glenn notes your post.

Phil, yup, I can only catch you on big dump days and I am on my Shamans! First and only time!!!

John, Hope you get out soon and I hope to get on the Argos' in on a nice 6" plus day to see how they perform, I have high expectations for them. Many are using these as their everyday ski as long as there is soft snow.

Gary · « **Reply #13 on:** November 26, 2008, 07:42:50 am »

Jim..I was referring to skiers in the catagory of Harold who does not wear a helmet....certainly not me.

Perry....maybe Svend would let you borrow his blond Viking hair. (check out the blackmail post)

Lynn.....helmet head is the great hair ugo equalizer.....we all look like we're from the same planet when we remove our helmets.

Phil you speed demon....

Glen...Ron really does love ya in a Fat Tire kind a way....heck we all love ya man...

Best,
Gary

Svend · « **Reply #14 on:** November 26, 2008, 09:04:36 am »

Quote from: Gary on November 26, 2008, 07:42:50 am

Perry....maybe Svend would let you borrow his blond Viking hair. (check out the blackmail post)

What? And cut off my long blond tresses?!! No way...it took me years of careful management and styling to get that magnificent mop. He can go to a wig shop

Ron · « **Reply #15 on:** November 26, 2008, 09:17:35 am »

Fat tire kind of way?

? FT is "tourist-ale" cassara,

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #16 on:** November 26, 2008, 09:41:34 am »

IN SUMMARY:

1. It is definitely a personal decision, just as wearing a helmet while riding a motorcycle is a personal decision in some states.

2. Everyone that is over 40 and responded has made the personal decision to wear a helmet.

3. Everyone that I know that has ski age kids has made the decision that their kids will wear a helmet.

4. Some people are still too young to appreciate the potential pain to their loved ones if they should be the 00.01% to suffer a significant head injury.

5. All (both) of the medical professionals that responded have made the personal decision to wear helmets.

midwif · « **Reply #17 on:** November 26, 2008, 10:02:45 am »

Summary continued......

And Fat Tire may be a tourist ale, but it's damn good.

Ron · « **Reply #18 on:** November 26, 2008, 10:19:48 am »

it's "good" but there are many up there that are much better.

Gary · « **Reply #19 on:** November 26, 2008, 12:18:17 pm »

Oh ROn..you are such a purist....

We ski ....we drink....period!......and Lynn's right..."damn good"!

Perry, Svend can get a little testy about his gold hairs but hey....it's taken him 61 years to grow them....we understand.

and thank you Jim for the post traumatic summary....well done my friend.

G

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #20 on:** March 16, 2009, 01:21:50 pm »

Update: Reason 35 why I'm glad I have a helmet.

Skiing at Powder Mountain on the first run of the day from the lodge down to the lift. Cruising along, beginning a gentle turn to the left when my peripheral vision sees this riderless snowboard right beside me. WHOMP!! Hit my head very hard. I think the upturned tips of my skis actually skied onto the board, just due to the random circumstances of time and place.

I actually felt pretty groggy when I first lifted my head up, but later had no headache or residual effects. I believe that without a helmet this would have ended my day (if not worse) on the patrol sled after 75 seconds of skiing.

14 year old girl was going down to the lift to "put her tether on" when she lost the board and it took off.

Svend · « **Reply #21 on:** March 16, 2009, 04:47:25 pm »

Can you imagine if that had been ice you'd whacked your bean on? With no helmet, it's the Boo-Boo truck for you, lad.

BTW, a 22 year old hockey player died here recently when his helmet came off and he hit his bare head on the ice. In a coma for a week, and they couldn't bring him back. Big, strong guy, totally fit, lifelong hockey player and coach. If a guy like that can succumb to a head injury from hitting the ice, imagine what our middle-aged noggins would look like inside if that happened to us. Gives a new meaning to the saying "mush for brains"....

speed163 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 16, 2009, 05:32:10 pm »

Thought I might "jump in" on the thread, as I've been told "if it doesn't require a helmet, you won't do it!!". Brain buckets have to be fitted properly with/without a beanie. I happen to have two beanies: a thin Nike for warm spring days and very common on the hockey rink. A warmer RED snowboarding cap for colder slope days. My helmet needs minor tweaking according to which "cap" is nesting on my coiff. Helmet hair is a right to a pint at the end of the day

Secondly, trauma injuries are not necessarily consequential but if wearing a helmet offers even the remotest safety net, isn't that better than what potentially could be the outcome? My "lid" saved me from a major concussion this season but did not prevent a root canal (impact of a fall on ice killed a tooth root when my head snapped back). Road or slope' pizza' is NOT a personal option. Secondly, role modeling is equally important: if we expect our kids/grandchildren to wear a 'lid', shouldn't we??

On a lighter note, treat it as an 'accessory'. Modify it, like your ride, to suit your style. ie. Does a jacket with orange accents require a helmet with orange flames???

As mentioned, there are plenty of options out there but the ultimate choice remains with the person at the helm.

Terryl

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #23 on:** March 16, 2009, 08:58:15 pm »

Quote from: Terryl on March 16, 2009, 05:32:10 pm

Brain buckets have to be fitted properly with/without a beanie.? I happen to have two beanies: a thin Nike for warm spring days and very common on the hockey rink. A warmer RED snowboarding cap for colder slope days. My helmet needs minor tweaking according to which "cap" is nesting on my coiff.? Helmet hair is a right to a pint at the end of the day

Terryl: One of the things I like about the Giro 10 (that my Giro Fuse didn't have) is a thumbwheel adjustment at the back of the helmet for exactly that adjustment, much like a bike helmet.? I have a light SmartWool beanie that I normally wear, a Balaclava that I might need someday, and sometimes wear neither.? Each requires about one click of adjustment to get a nice, snug fit.

And a baseball cap in the boot bag takes care of the thinning helmet hair issue.

Gary · « **Reply #24 on:** March 17, 2009, 07:36:32 am »

Ok....gang...I've been a helmet believer and owner for 5 years and love the accessorize added value incentive to wearing one...However....I could never be a "beanie baby" cause my head would become a fountain of flowing moisture.

Still big believer in the helmets and found that with the more terrain I explore at mountains the more I'm thankful for wearing a helmet.

This last trip to skiing Steamboat in some beautiful evergreens, I came around a huge evergreen heading out of the glades following Ron and we both cut the turn tight close to the tree. Well, my ski buddy negelected to hold the evergreen branch he went through, well cause it's virtually impossible, and that branch become the forearm of a 350lb linebacker. It greeted the side of my helmet with such a "thwack" that I saw the first ever 2 episodes of Star Trek in 5 seconds. The impact actually left a mark on the side of my helmet. I laughed about it at the time but was thankful I had a couple inches of foam and plastic between my skull and that branch.

Yes, it's still a choice but geez gang......it's a very wise one to say the least!

Best,
G

Svend · « **Reply #25 on:** March 17, 2009, 09:03:22 pm »

Well, this is very unfortunate, but timely given our discussion:? http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1398682
The article regards Natasha Richardson, the actor, who fell while skiing at Tremblant, and was not wearing a helmet.? Looks like a serious head injury, but the newspapers aren't too clear on the exact details.? There may be mitigating factors here, which aren't known publicly yet, as the fall seems not to have been a hard one -- green slope, slow speed, slushy snow.? Doesn't look good, though, for her.? We'll see what comes out in the news in the next few days..... Hope it turns out for the best.

Gary · « **Reply #26 on:** March 18, 2009, 09:00:26 am »

Hey Svend...this morning on the Today show they said she was in a lesson, took a very easy fall and hit her head. Got up, shook it off and walked away. An hour later, she was complaining of headaches and the rest we know.

She was on holiday at Tremblant with one of her sons...I wonder if HE was wearing a helmet.

Very much a tragedy for sure. I believe a helmet could have prevented this outcome.

G

Svend · « **Reply #27 on:** March 19, 2009, 04:51:10 am »

OK folks, this just got so sad, as Natasha Richardson died yesterday from her injury. I feel very sorry for the family, as both her young sons were skiing with her at the time.

So, what could have happened here? Slow speed, easy fall, soft snow, no apparent impact on anything hard. But.......no helmet! I'm not a medical man, but I'm curious to know if any pre-existing medical condition or medication could have exacerbated this. For example, I know that anti-coagulants and sports don't mix -- ie. any internal bleeding just doesn't stop. Or is it possible that a seemingly innocuous head impact is enough for certain people to suffer serious brain injury?

Perry....are you tuning in to this thread? Any thoughts or insight?

Other that "Let's all wear helmets", is there anything we can learn from this?

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #28 on:** March 19, 2009, 07:58:26 am »

Quote from: Svend on March 19, 2009, 04:51:10 am

is there anything we can learn from this?

There are three things I believe!? Life is more fragile than we want to accept and we should cherish the days and experiences we are given, tomorrow isn't guaranteed, and there is a God.

Quote from: Jim

Edited out a section about an experience I had in VietNam

Philpug · « **Reply #29 on:** March 19, 2009, 08:43:14 am »

Quote from: jbotti on November 25, 2008, 11:14:46 am

I agree on the personal preference to some degree on snow. Cycling is a different story. I am on the bike 5-6 days a week and still race a little bit. I am always shocked when I see people cycling witout a helmet. That is just insanity. Concrete and asphalt are hard and in most falls on a bike the head hits the pavement.

Getting back to helmets for snowsports, I think the statistics are pretty clear that you are always better off with a helmet. Still I see many great skiers that will just never wear one (unless racing). Harald Harb is one. Now Harald actually falls about once every 2-3 years so I can undrstand why he sees no need to wear a helmet. Most mortals are better off with one on.

Lastly, now that I have a bluetooth helmet (deeply discounted on sale) and this year I will be able to answer my phone by pressing a button on my ear piece, there is absolutely nothing lsot wearing a helmet!!

Harald is more apt to being hit on the slopes than falling (and I don't mean attacked

)> He stands still, a lot, on trails that people ski at higher speeds, white teaching and explaining in doing so, he is not paying attention to wayward skiers coming down the slopes at hight rates of speed. He is a sitting duck.

Harald is a perfect example of a figure head of the sport, and should an example of proper safety too,, as all instructors and patrollers.

Gary · « **Reply #30 on:** March 19, 2009, 08:54:19 am »

Jim...I hear what you're saying and let me say first I and we as a nation if I may boldly speak for them...appreciate your service in Vietman and we cumulatively appreciate you are still with us.

One could say that when it's your time...it's your time....but....at least try a do something to protect your self when you have the good sensability to do so.

We've all have had close calls....but there's a big loud statement in this last head injury death....govern yourself accordingly!
If you believe in helmets and put one on your child.....Wear one yourself....set the right example....one mans opinion!

Phil...I can say with certainty, in a group lesson with Harold, he is always conscious of where he stops and other people skiing by fast or slow. I hope that no ill befalls him especially with all the time he and his instructors spend on the mountain. I do think as you said, leading by example and choosing to be safer and take advantage of the best protection available is wise....to say the least!
Best,
Gary

Ron · « **Reply #31 on:** March 19, 2009, 09:03:14 am »

Quote from: Philpug on March 19, 2009, 08:43:14 am

Quote from: jbotti on November 25, 2008, 11:14:46 am
I agree on the personal preference to some degree on snow. Cycling is a different story. I am on the bike 5-6 days a week and still race a little bit. I am always shocked when I see people cycling witout a helmet. That is just insanity. Concrete and asphalt are hard and in most falls on a bike the head hits the pavement.

Getting back to helmets for snowsports, I think the statistics are pretty clear that you are always better off with a helmet. Still I see many great skiers that will just never wear one (unless racing). Harald Harb is one. Now Harald actually falls about once every 2-3 years so I can undrstand why he sees no need to wear a helmet. Most mortals are better off with one on.

Lastly, now that I have a bluetooth helmet (deeply discounted on sale) and this year I will be able to answer my phone by pressing a button on my ear piece, there is absolutely nothing lsot wearing a helmet!!

Harald is more apt to being hit on the slopes than falling (and I don't mean attacked )> He stands still, a lot, on trails that people ski at higher speeds, white teaching and explaining in doing so, he is not paying attention to wayward skiers coming down the slopes at hight rates of speed. He is a sitting duck.

Harald is a perfect example of a figure head of the sport, and should an example of proper safety too,, as all instructors and patrollers.?

Phils point is dead-on, all should be wearing them. If nothing else, it's a good example but if you are teaching a class you can't be paying attention to the extent you or I do while chatting or talking or Skiing for that matter. It only takes a second for someone to get out of control or pop out of the woods or fall and slide into you.

gregmerz · « **Reply #32 on:** March 19, 2009, 11:59:50 am »

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/19/ski.safety/index.html

Good article and it highlights a point I always make. Watch it in the afternoon when you start to get tired...

Svend · « **Reply #33 on:** March 19, 2009, 03:43:34 pm »

That is a good article, Greg. Well written, good on them to highlight the afternoons as being the nasty period.

Here's an article about what the autopsy found on Richardson: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1406461

Pretty clear that it was the fall that did the damage. Must have been some ice there, for it to have caused that much internal injury.

Ya gotta feel bad for the patrol folks, who seem to have really wanted to help, and even had the paramedics there right after the fall. What must they be thinking and feeling like now?

midwif · « **Reply #34 on:** March 19, 2009, 05:25:47 pm »

Greg
Excellent article. And I agree wholeheartedly about the afternoon danger rising. I often feel it myself. And try to make the last run a "cool down" instead of a challenge.
And do one run less than I feel like doing.
Most of the time.?

The randomness of this is what is hard to take in. I am sure that all of us have had head bumps that were pretty hard. Whether smacking it on a kitchen cabinet, rough housing it with kids/friends, during sports.

For her to die so quickly from something that probably seemed? like "no big deal" at the time. It could have been any of us.

Makes me feel REALLY foolish going skiing 7 years while on blood thinners.

gregmerz · « **Reply #35 on:** March 19, 2009, 06:38:44 pm »

Late afternoons are better spent watching Gary drink beer from a pitcher than taking late chances on the slope.

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Ron · « **Reply #36 on:** March 20, 2009, 06:30:23 am »

My vote!

Gary · « **Reply #37 on:** March 20, 2009, 07:56:10 am »

There is no mercy on this web site......thank you Greg for reminding me why I only drink one beer!

Ok..read this this morning in the paper....interestin g statistic....I may be off a bit on the percentages cause my steel trap memory had been slightly diminished by the site of the above posted picture but here goes:

SKiers that wear helmets: 24% of beginners, 38% of intermediates and 55% of experts....printed in USA Today.

Great article you posted Greg.....I like to make those last runs of the day some calm carves in soft snow. For me....it's always "DON'T EVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN, STAY FOCUSED ON YOUR SKIING AND THE PEOPLE IN FRONT, SIDE AND BEHIND YOU". Think about everything else when you're having that cold one!

Best,
G

Perry · « **Reply #38 on:** March 20, 2009, 07:33:05 pm »

Quote from: jim-ratliff on March 19, 2009, 07:58:26 am

Quote from: Svend on March 19, 2009, 04:51:10 am
is there anything we can learn from this?

There are three things I believe!? Life is more fragile than we want to accept and we should cherish the days and experiences we are given, tomorrow isn't guaranteed, and there is a God.

Amen to all three, and I too thank you for your service to our country.

Svend - I have been busy, but here is my take based on 14 years of seeing trauma in the ER.? She had an epidural bleed.? These are very tricky and can fool even experienced MDs.? Usual scenario - person falls and hits head and has a brief loss of consciousness (LOC).? They seem ok for 15 - 60 minutes and then rapidly go down the toilet right in front of you.? At that point they need to be in the operating room with a neurosurgeon ASAP, like 5 minutes ago.? If they are not in a hospital already the result is usually pretty grim, permanent brain injury or death.?

Helmets are like seatbelts.? They guarantee nothing.? You still have to have it properly fit, you need to drive carefully, and in very rare cases, they hold you in a car that gets crushed or blows up.? But for every time that happens, there are 100 times that people live because they were held inside the car.

I have seen a young women who had a fender bender, fall out of her car and hit the pavement with her head.? This was a very low speed accident, a couple of hundred dollars of damage to the car.? Her injury was probably very much like the actress with contact with ice (this is my strong suspicion)? She came in and was already in trouble.? We called the helicopter from Wake Forest University and did all we could to get her ready for surgery, 20min later they swooped in and swooped out.? I told her family to be prepared to be asked for organ donation and told them to pray - that she would need more help than I or the folks at WFU could really give.? AMAZINGLY - she walked in to thank us several weeks later.? Just in case anyone thinks I'm bragging - I quoted Jim for a reason, I think it had more to do with Grace than anything else, even though our resuscitation went amazingly smoothly (more grace).? Sometimes things go great and people live, sometimes they die.? Other times nothing goes right and people still live.....and sometimes they die and you ask of yourself and your staff hard questions.?

Sorry for the long tangent - here's the quirky human part.? When my family started skiing, I had my kids wear helmets and I wore a really great Mountain Hardware hat.? As a bald man, I had wonderful appreciation for that hat.? After experiencing what is above, I wore a hat for a little over a year, before switching to a helmet because I suspected that my head would be cold.? Sometimes we just aren't very consistent!!!!!!!!!? I wouldn't ski without a helmet now.

Svend · « **Reply #39 on:** March 23, 2009, 09:54:57 am »

Hey Perry -- thanks for the input. Very insightful, and certainly makes me feel lucky to still have all my marbles after a couple of falls that I have had (see beginning of this thread). The fall last year definitely had an element of L.O.C. to it, as I remember nothing of the event or the seconds preceding it -- just waking up and looking at the sky. (BTW, I was wearing a helmet) A nice dull headache followed. As it was, I just sat in the lodge for an hour, relaxed and had a cup of tea until I felt better, then skied for a few more hours. Probably not the smart thing to do -- had I known all this about epidural bleeds, I would have called an ambulance.

So, here's what I take from this ..... if you fall and thump your noggin, and have any of the following symptoms, seek medical help, and fast:

Loss of consciousness
Headache
Nausea
Blurry vision
Dizziness

Correct me if I'm off track on any of this.

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #40 on:** March 23, 2009, 10:19:39 am »

Hey Svend. Did you replace your helmet after that fall? I believe that they recommend replacing a bike helmet (or ski helmet) anytime it absorbs a significant fall whether it shows any signs of impact or not.

I was thinking about this last night, and after consulting with my personal trainer she concurred that my impact at Powder Mountain sounded loud enough that I should start watching Steep and Cheap for a new helmet. On the one hand seems a bit much, on the other hand I was a bit woozy when I first got up and it felt like a pretty hard hit.

Svend · « **Reply #41 on:** March 23, 2009, 11:16:42 am »

No, I didn't actually. I checked it out thoroughly, and it showed no signs of damage - no cracks, compressed liner, separated liner. All seemed well, so I've just kept using it. To be honest, I've been a bit skeptical about that assertion to replace the helmet after an impact. They're a pretty simple construction -- hard shell, expanded polystyrene liner glued into that, foam padding and fabric over that for comfort. I've never read or heard of a good, solid, technical reason why a helmet needs to be replaced after an impact -- notwithstanding the obvious, that is, as mentioned above -- **** shell, compressed or separated liner. Motorcycle helmets are an exception, I think, due to the speeds involved -- I replaced one of those when my bike fell over in a parking lot, and my helmet was dangling from the handlebar....the 500 pound bike fell on the helmet and **** the shell.

But, you have given me reason for pause and second thought -- thanks for the reality check. I will look into this further and see if replacement is justified. If so, then there's more shopping to be done....groan.....

Glenn · « **Reply #42 on:** March 24, 2009, 06:50:43 am »

I don't know much about ski helments due to personal choices. However, I can tell you about offroad helmets used by ATVers and dirtbike riders. The popular school of thought there is to replace after an inpact. The logic there is that even a minor impact can result in damage you can't see. I took a nasty spill off my machine a few years back. The helmet was pretty scratched up, but not **** or damaged in any way. I replaced it.

Ron · « **Reply #43 on:** March 24, 2009, 10:00:02 am »

all manufacturers will allow you to send any helmet in for evaluation at no cost. If it's damaged or too old (most will only warrenty for 5 years) they usually give you a replacement or some kind of discount

Svend · « **Reply #44 on:** March 24, 2009, 08:56:35 pm »

Ron -- I didn't know that the manufacturers did that.? Good tip! I'll check with K2 here and see if they can do that.

In the meantime, I've done a little bit of checking and calling around about helmet construction, and there appear to be two kinds of builds:

Type 1) The first type has a thin layer of light polycarbonate material that gets vacuum formed over, and bonded to, a thicker layer of expanded polystyrene beads (EPS), which is the shock absorbing layer.? This construction is used because it is light weight and has a slim profile.? However, because the outer layer is not overly rigid or strong, it is very susceptible to damage from impact, even moderate ones.? The outer polycarbonate shell and will buckle in on impact, compressing the EPS beneath.? These type of helmets probably need to be replaced after a moderate or worse impact.

Type 2) The second type has a rigid, hard outer shell made of injection molded ABS, to which the EPS liner is glued.? This construction is much stronger, as the ABS is much less susceptible to deforming on impact -- it' hard stuff, so your head will probably just bounce without the helmet compressing.? The downside is that these helmets are heavier and look bulkier.? According to my local shop, these do not necessarily have to be replaced after every impact, unless it's a really hard one on ice or against a tree or branch.? The hard shell will prevent the EPS liner from compressing.? However, if in doubt, toss it and replace it, or get it checked out like Ron suggested.

This is by no means an exhaustive review, and there is a lot that I don't know yet.? So take the above as just a quick overview.

FYI, I have the second type of helmet -- with the ABS hard shell.? It's a K2, and is about the only one I could find that fit my cranial shape (no squarehead jokes, please!).? It's, well, pretty darn unattractive, but so comfortable that I can wear it all day and not even know it's there.? Jim -- it also has the click wheel in the back to adjust -- great feature. If I have to replace it, I'd buy another just like it, it fits so well.

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #45 on:** March 26, 2009, 02:15:35 pm »

From CNN.

Connie and Donald McCracken were watching CNN one evening last week when they learned of the tragic death of actress Natasha Richardson from a head injury. Immediately, their minds turned to their 7-year-old daughter, Morgan, who was upstairs getting ready for bed.

Two days earlier, Morgan, her father, and brother had been playing baseball in the yard of their Mentor, Ohio, home when her father hit a line drive that landed just above Morgan's left temple. A lump formed, but the McCrackens iced it down and the swelling subsided within an hour.

"For the next two days, she was perfectly fine," Donald McCracken says. "She had no symptoms. She went to school both days and got an A on her spelling test as usual. There were no issues whatsoever."? But after hearing about Richardson's death, the McCrackens wondered if Morgan was really as OK as she seemed. After all, Richardson had been talking and lucid immediately after her fatal injury.? When they went upstairs to kiss Morgan good night, she complained of a headache. "Because of Natasha, we called the pediatrician immediately. And by the time I got off the phone with him, Morgan was sobbing, her head hurt so much," McCracken says.

The McCrackens took Morgan to the emergency room at LakeWest Hospital in neighboring Willoughby, where doctors ordered a CT scan and immediately put Morgan on a helicopter to Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital in Cleveland, with her father by her side. "I knew it was bad when she had to get there by helicopter in six minutes, instead of the 30 minutes it would have taken to get to Cleveland in an ambulance," McCracken said.

When the helicopter arrived at Rainbow, the McCrackens were greeted by Dr. Alan Cohen, the hospital's chief of pediatric neurosurgery. He whisked Morgan into the operating room, pausing for a moment to tell McCracken that his daughter had the same injury as Richardson: an epidural hematoma. McCracken remembers standing in the emergency room, feeling like the life had just been sucked out of him. "My heart sank," he says. "It just sank."

Unlike Richardson's, Morgan's story has a happy ending. After surgery and five days in the hospital, she's at home and doing fine. "Dr. Cohen told us that if we hadn't brought her in Thursday night, she never would have woken up," McCracken says.

Svend · « **Reply #46 on:** March 26, 2009, 08:29:20 pm »

Great story, Jim - thanks. Geez, this is making me paranoid. A speedy demise just from a rap on the old bean. OK, I'm just going to buy a new lid -- cheap insurance. 'Nuff said....

jim-ratliff · « **Reply #47 on:** March 26, 2009, 11:16:40 pm »

Svend: By the way, thanks for the research. My helmet is of the type that doesn't show the damage. I had already decided to replace it (as you said, cheap insurance), but your research just confirmed the wisdom of that idea.

On the other hand, I've been hit in the head with the backswing of a baseball bat (that one staggered me a bit), I've been hit around the eye by a line drive, I took a fall on my bike last summer that actually split my bike helmet all the way through for 6" or so (that is like your fall, I don't remember a thing about it, did go to the emergency room for CT scan), and I haven't had a problem yet.

On the other hand, my daughter-in-law got run down by a biker while out running and training for the Marine Corps marathon last fall. She broke her collar bone, and did have bleeding on the brain from the impact of the fall. Pretty touchy overnight. To my everlasting amazement, she finished the Marine Corps marathon within the time limit even though the doctors wouldn't let her run more than 1 mile at a time. Run 1, walk 1, run 1, walk 1. Her father had died of cancer last spring, and she and my son ran the marathon as a cancer fund-raiser and in his memory.

News:

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