Which All Condition Ski would You Buy?

[buck]

I'm looking for an all conditions (resort) ski and I'm unsure of which one to buy. Living in the midwest I don't want any thing too fat, 76mm is the maximum length I would consider. I live in and ski primarily Minnesota with a once a year trip out west. I ski mostly hard pack, ice and groomers but want something that can handle the rare trip into the deep, crud and spring slop. My choices are the Stockli Stormrider XL, Rosignol Z9, Fischer AMC 76, Volkl AC3, Nordica Hod Rod Modified and the Elan Magfire 12. I have a strong preference for vertical side wall ski's and I'm leaning toward the Stocklis in 174cm which I have demoed on hard pack only and loved. I have also demoed the Z9 in 170cm in a variety of conditions and it found it worked ok in most conditions. The others I have no experience with. I'm 5' 9" 210lbs and love skiing fast on hard snow and ice, I struggle in soft snow and crud. Would ski and length would you suggest?

[Ron]

Buck, if this is for the once a year trip, then I would tell you to rent unless of course, you want ot buy something. Are you saying you want just one ski or are you looking for a a second pair to accomapny the hard snow ski? In my opinion, you only need two skis; one with a 66-68mm waiste and then something around 78-84. Skis like the Supershape, Rx8 will handle anything up tp boot high  powder and some crud. If its' wet mashed paotoatoes and then I break out my 82's and blast on through. Skiing crud and slop is  skill oriented as well so the ski will help only to some degree.

so here's my summary based on assumptions- note I don't know your skill level, speed is irrelevant.

1-ski, hmm, not a fan of a one-ski quiver but rx-8 or Supershape in a 170. Rent skis if you have real powder over a foot or real mashed or slop. If you must, then I would look at Elan Magfire 10 instead, a Head IM72, Atomic Metron M11/b5,Volkl AC3, Hot rod or Nitro

2 quiver- much better- Supershape or Rx8.  Best two skis on the market. Then, Head 82, AC3/4, Elan 666,hot rod nitrous, Rossi B3, Atomic Sweet daddy-

[Barrettscv]

Hi Buck,

Its vaguely apparent from your other thread that you have the Fischer WC RC, Please confirm.

If this is the case, I would develop a two ski quiver that included the WC RC for hard snow.

Like Ron Indicated, the second ski should be wider than 76mm, especially considering your size.

On your next trip out west demo the Head Monster i.M 82 and the Volkl AC4.

Cheers,

Michael

[Ron]

The Fischer RC is a great ski, it is very similar to the 8, it's a keeper. You could go for a RX8 for a bit more versitility. The Elan 12 or 10 would my other choice, as said above.

[buck]

You are all correct, I own the Worldcup RC's in 175cm which I use pretty much strictly for racing. I also own a pair of Head Supershapes in 170cm (I actually have two, one is for sale) which I use on smaller slopes when I want to take it easier and in more varied conditions (I find them somewhat soft). I'm not into the one ski quiver, I also own a pair of 07 Head XRC 1200's in 177cm for use on larger slopes for more aggressive skiing on hard snow. Living in the midwest we don't get a lot of snow, man made hard pack and ice are the norm. The ski I'm looking to add would be used once a year out west, skiing lake effect snow in the northern portion of the state as well as spring slop and slush which starts here in February. I don't want a real wide ski, I wouldn't use it enough to justify it. I travel for business in the northern portion of the state and always pack the ski's, you just never know what conditions you will face and I travel light. I want one pair that will do it all as well as handle the once a year trip out west. When I go west I mainly ski the longer fast groomed runs but eventually on the trip it snows and there is always crud to deal with. I'm not really into soft snow and crud, I want a ski that will rip the groomed runs but get me through the crud with the least amount of effort!

[Ron]

head 82

[buck]

I live in the midwest, 68mm is a wide ski by our standards! I really don't want to go wider than 76mm, I want the versatility. I prefer hard snow as sick as that may sound, I just want a tool that will work in the event I have to ski in soft snow and crud.

[Barrettscv]

You are all correct, I own the Worldcup RC's in 175cm which I use pretty much strictly for racing. I also own a pair of Head Supershapes in 170cm (I actually have two, one is for sale) which I use on smaller slopes when I want to take it easier and in more varied conditions (I find them somewhat soft). I'm not into the one ski quiver, I also own a pair of 07 Head XRC 1200's in 177cm for use on larger slopes for more aggressive skiing on hard snow. Living in the midwest we don't get a lot of snow, man made hard pack and ice are the norm. The ski I'm looking to add would be used once a year out west, skiing lake effect snow in the northern portion of the state as well as spring slop and slush which starts here in February. I don't want a real wide ski, I wouldn't use it enough to justify it. I travel for business in the northern portion of the state and always pack the ski's, you just never know what conditions you will face and I travel light. I want one pair that will do it all as well as handle the once a year trip out west. When I go west I mainly ski the longer fast groomed runs but eventually on the trip it snows and there is always crud to deal with. I'm not really into soft snow and crud, I want a ski that will rip the groomed runs but get me through the crud with the least amount of effort!

You are talking to the right people!

Check my reviews under the Head & Volkl section at this forum. The AC4 and (I assume) the Monster 82 will be suitable. These wide skis are very agile under the feet of a good skier.

Cheers,

Michael

[Ron]

Yup, I have the RF mounted on my 82's and I can rip a mean line with them. It takes a few runs to adjust but once you get the feel, the sandwich construction-vertical walls can carve some mean turns for sure. If you want versitility, then there's no point in going to a ski with mid 70's underfoot. Personally, I ski my Supershapes in almost everyhting but if it gets sloppy and wet or over 8" then the 82's come out. Otherwise there's just too much cross-over with a ski that's in the 70's and not enough advantage when it gets real heavy or deep.

[buck]

That makes a lot of sense but I just don't see myself getting that much use out of the 82's, I do prefer a vertical side wall however. I'm really leaning toward the Stockli Stormrider XL's, I've only skied them on hard pack and they were great, I'm not sure how effective they are in powder and crud? My previous "wide" ski was 70mm underfoot and they were ok (not great), I'm thinking 75mm should be a step up for me! I prefer a less shapely longer radius ski when I do go out west, the Stockli in 174cm is 18.5 radius verse 12.1 on the 170cm Supershape.

[Ron]

I am confused then, I thought you wanted a ski for crud and pow? FWIW- the 82 has a 17.7R. What are you gaining with a 75 whe it gets deep and sloppy that a RX8 or SS can't handle? I thin you shoudl demo, don't let the 82 mm underfoot put you off, they are not ponderous, they are still quick and nimble.

[Barrettscv]

Buck,

You need to demo, These 82mm skis are great, IF? you already are an excellent skier.

Cheers,

Michael

[Ron]

my bet is that Buck is an excellent skier but coming from a race mentatility (not a bad thing) the 82 is putting him off. I think if he got on them he would see how nimble they are. With the vert walls and sandwich construction, they don't act or feel like a bit fat 2x4 on your feet. You know it and I know it but until you try them......

[Gary]

Buck...Give the Head IM 72 and the IM 77 a demo. I owned and skied  the 75's, 77's, and now moved up to the 82's as my 2nd quivver ski. I'm 5'81/2 and 155lbs.

I skied with an instructor at Aspen who used his IM 72 for his every day ski and he loves the bumps, powder and crud.

He's about your weight but a bit shorter.

Gary

[buck]

We don't have much for demos in Minnesota, when we do there isn't much in the way of powder or crud to test them. Most of the skis that are offered for demos are the typical skinny carving skis. I will definately try the 82's if I can find some, you sold me!

[John]

I ski at Big Mountain in Whitefish. Montana The conditions of the snow vary from chowder to powder to groomed depending on the snow storm that comes through. I tried Elan Magfire 10's at 168 and really liked the transition I could make between snow conditions. I'm still shy of real powder and consider myself an advanced intermediate who does a few blacks on the front side, but nothing like my grown kids. I prefer the blue runs and the Magfire's felt so good in various conditions that I bought a pair for this year. I think I can grow into them and they will forgive my mistakes to a degree. Anyone else with Elan Mag 10 experience?

[Gary]

Hey John, looks like good ski weather has blanketed your area....coming this way!

Knowing your height and weight would be helpful.

I have skied the Elan Magfire and enjoyed versatility of that ski. I do think it makes a good one quivver ski that will help you deal with a variety of terrain. Although I'm a big believer, especially as an advanced intermediate,  that you should be skiiing on something in the 63-66mm waist to really help your carving skills but if it's one ski you want, then the Mag is a great choice.

Best,
Gary

[Ron]

Gary  " I'm 5' 9" 210lbs and love skiing fast on hard snow and ice, I struggle in soft snow and crud. Would ski and length would you suggest?"

go back and read his first couple of posts. I think you will see why Michael and I are suggesting the 82's or alike. He wants them for "deep" crud and slop. I don't see the value in just going to a mid 70's ski.  Your .02?

[Gary]

Ron, my thoughts were here's a guy like my buddy Ed...who is 6'1, 215lbs, advanced intermediate? who purchased his 72's based on my reccomendation.

Ed? loves his 72's for carving, crud and boot to shin high powder. I just think if someone at this level goes to wide, they're missing on the learing experience of being able to get good edge angle on skis. I just think it's much more difficult for this level skier to improve carving skills on the wider boards.

I believe the 72 can be a great tool as a one quivver ski for the 200lb. I've skied with John Clenden, the Ski Doctor at Aspen and he makes em dance.

I also thought he wanted a ski that would perform well in groom terrain as well.

For me, it's about the improvement in skill level with a ski the user can maixmize edge angle within? a comfortable turn radius.

I think Harolds article regarding fat skis says it pretty well.

Gary

[Ron]

OK, so lets see if I can answer for yet another poster!  John, Buck, bill, sandy, whoever!  Ok, Buck,- 82's, John, 72's or Ac2's Head 800's (gary?)

I am going home! 

[Gary]

Thanks ROn,..crossed wires..but yep...what you said!

Have a great weekend gang!


Gary

[John]

Gary:

Thanks for the information. I am 5' 9'' and 175 lbs. I also ski K2 Apache's with a 68 wiastline for groomers. Big Mountain snow can get chopped up pretty good by the kids and mother nature. I was looking for something to get me through these changing conditions because my skills alone arn't enough. Maybe one day. I got interested in the Elan Magfires after trying  K2 public enemy. They allowed me to be quick on chop and heavy snow but didn't seem to transition well for me. A local ski shop owner recommended the Magfires. I tried them for two days in various conditions and felt comfortable with their stability and reaction. I debated many other skis as a second choice but kept coming back to them. I'll let you know how they do this Chritsmas. My goal is to ski 30 days this year from Banff to Fernie to Big Mountain.

John

[Ron]

John, ski on what you ski well on:)  The MAgfire series is a great line, the 10 and 12 are awesome skis that will go very well from groomed to crud. Its a strong ski not for the meek. I think if you have tried it and seem to do well on it, go for it. Skiing crud is just like skiing the groomed for ther most part; especially if its loose crud. Try to ski it just like a groomed run and see how you do. The key with the crud is not let your skis go flat, this is where folks get into trouble. IF they are flat, they will tend to pop up and send you off balance.  Make your turn transitions lightening quick, do not let the skis run flat for more than it takes to throw your weight across the fall line and into the next turn. If you tense up and ride it flat, that's where you will pay! IT takes a little time to get used to it but my instructor says it this way; You don't cut butter with the side of your knife, you cut butter with the edge, its the same thing.

[Gary]

Ron, I kinda almost agree with you....(and this may open up a completely new topic)

In the crud, I feel you need to control speed, flaten the skis between transition in the course of moving your body down hill. But not rushing this transition. The other part is finishing each turn with the skis across the moutain or back up the hill depending on your need to control speed.

I believe learning to float your skis (flat in transition) is key to all mountain skiing.

Rapid fire edge changes (with less time in float) can be used on less step terrain in low crud...but when the terrain steepens and the crud deepens...float the boat baby, float the boat!

Hey John, thanks for weight update....so what is it you really are trying to accomplish with your ski selection....a bit confused.

Gary

[Ron]

GAry, if its soft than you can cheat and float it  but if its wet slop than you can't flatten or you will go flying off the peaks.

[Gary]

The float at least the way I learned it is the middle step the allows smooth transition in all terrain. Now if you're running tight gates you would set hard edge to hard edge. But skiing smooth and effortless down the mountain there is no "cheat" about the float. It as natural as babies first steps.

This works in slop, bumps, crud, cruisers, powder....It's magical and makes skiing much more relaxing and less energy sapping.

Will demonstrate what I mean when we get together at BC.
G

[Ron]

We'll compare, the way we were taught was for fast skiing ther is very little effort as well, just throw you body across the fall ine to accellerate the transition. If you are skiing more straight on loose light stuff, then yes, you can float it, but if it gets steep, you have to turn more.  We've got tons to play around with!

[jim-ratliff]

I would love to hear the follow-up on this, when you can each see what the other is doing and then to hear what words you use to describe it.

For example, I can't visualize what Ron means when he says that he just "throws his body across the fall line".? I'm not sure how you do that without a stem-christie push from the uphill foot.

Similarly, I think I understand what Gary is describing in the float, but it's little more than aggressively relaxing the downhill foot so that the body crosses the skis (as with Ron, but minus the push and extension?).? In fact (Gary/JBooti? ??) I know it was in the early books, but does Harald still talk about 'the float' or has it been replaced by an emphasis on retraction?

Ron, what are you describing when you talk about 'flying off the tops in wet slop if the skis are flat'.? That just sounds like you need more absorption (or different timing of where you turn), but I know you are a better skier than such an obvious assessment?

[Gary]

Interestingly, I think some of what we are saying is similar..

Even when skiing slow or fast, long turns, quick turns, there is a fraction of a second and sometmes more where the skis flatten to the snow...this is that magical point; unless the skier picks up their ski and physically sets edge to edge which is how I used to ski.

Iin deep snow the float stays a bit longer.

My wife a few years back ?was a definete "get me out of the crud" skier. Now with her ability to float the skis between transition, she loves the stuff.



G

[Gary]

Jim, what I think Ron is referring to is that during transition, you relax the downhill leg, lift, tip, float and let the body move down the mountain. This makes the transition flow very naturally to the new downhill ski. No stem is involved at all.

Also JIm, you can float with no or minimul retraction. Retraction comes in during higher speeds and more varied terrain. My last experience with Harold at a camp and his Book 2. float was key.

Retraction was a very difficult concpet for me to understand although I did it naturally in transition. I really never had to think about it..it just happened.

The thing I do understand about what Ron was saying that in the slop if you stay flat on your skis to long you're abilty to carve MAY diminish.  Now reasons for this maybe to get rid of some speed as in drifting, but if you're flat on the skis and don't understand the transition process, one could be in for a wild pony ride on the back of their skis.

Add to all this aggressive pole plants when needed, strong counter rotation and hey, we're all having a dilly of a day!

Gary

[Ron]

OK, where do I start on this?

- throw your body across the fall line, I can never explain the technical aspects very well but I think Gary has it about 90%, When coming out of the turn you basically unweight the uphill foot (unweight not lift) and move your body to the inside of the turn, almost like jumping across the fall line, the weight of you r body will tip you over very quickly, the skis must follow quciklu or your finished!  I don't pick a line in mashed potatoe conditions, jsut keep the ski on edge and rock on. There is no need to absorb the bump or pick a spot to flatten, You can smear it to burn speed but for the mostr part, just keep them rocked on edge.

[jim-ratliff]

OK, where do I start on this?

- throw your body across the fall line, I can never explain the technical aspects very well but I think Gary has it about 90%, When coming out of the turn you basically unweight the uphill foot (unweight not lift) and move your body to the inside of the turn, almost like jumping across the fall line, the weight of you r body will tip you over very quickly, the skis must follow quickly or your finished!? I don't pick a line in mashed potato conditions, just keep the ski on edge and rock on. There is no need to absorb the bump or pick a spot to flatten, You can smear it to burn speed but for the most part, just keep them rocked on edge.

OK, good explanation.? I assumed that you and Gary weren't that far apart.
 
"unweight the uphill foot" I think you mean the downhill foot, the one that has been on the outside in the turn just completed.? Gary would agree with this, including the part about unweight, not lift.? HH just teaches the lift part as a visual cue, if you have it lifted then you aren't fooling yourself about whether or not you have it unweighted.? The need for that cue goes away quickly.

"the weight of you r body will tip you over very quickly"? I agree with this whole heartedly.? What I am keying on is the "jumping across the fallline" because it envisions an active act (jumping) rather than a passive act (falling).? The push off of the stem christie is an active act, as is the up and down unweighting that you commonly see.

I would have to admit that I have little awareness of when the skis are flat (HH training says I should).? I know that they are flat somewhere in the transition, but if I relax the leg and tip the ski, then for me it is a continuum as my weight falls across the ski.? I don't relax to get flat and then tip to get edged.? In fact, I believe some of the lower level HH books implied that you flattened the skis and allowed them to begin to drift down the hill before tipping into the next turn.? Later progression emphasize tipping to the new edge much higher in the turn with lessened emphasis (I believe, that's the reason I asked JBotti/Gary to jump in) on the float/flat.? I agree that being on edge allows you to slice through slush rather than floating over it (if you skis are stiff enough).? This was one of the real weak points of the iC160's, their tendency to be deflected by a pile of slushy snow even if they were on edge (the other side of that softness, of course, is it allowed them to be more of an all-mountain ski than just a groomer).

Thanks for the expansion of the explanation.

[Ron]

Yes, thanks, the new uphill ski. I am not good at analyzing my skiing as far as HH and the gang. IT just happens, One thing I can tell you is that to some extent you are jumping acrtoss the fall line, think Gates but the body goes way out and over before the legs come across.

regarding the stiffness of the ski, yes, that's where a stiff ski is a must. If it's a soft ski, then you better pray the ski bites when you lay your body across the fall line because it will be a quick trip!

Regarding where your ski goes flat,  once you come out of the turn and begin to come across the fall line, your skis are at the flattet point. I beleive HH teaches that this is where you let them float and relax. I know that when I cross the fall line its almost a state of falling. That is to say that I don't feel any pressure against the snow, almost like zero gravity for a second. Hard to explain but I think thats what the float is, the ski are moving from one edge to the other and there really is no resistance.  Gary?

[buck]

So getting back to my original question, on my list of ski's I'm considering. Has anyone tryed these particular models and can make any reccommendations on these models? Thanks.

[Gary]

Well there ya go...we're very close.....for me, it is like falling into the new turn, relaxing, letting it happen, the float naturally occurs between the turns...

Jumping....nope, no jumping for me. It's always the body moving down the mountain ahead of the skis. The skis stay in contact with the snow.

Jumping implies to me compression of the legs and exploding upward to a newly planted ski.

Where for me, it's relaxing the down hill leg, allowing the body to move down the mountain over the tops of the ski (float), transitioning to the new downhill ski. Smooth, silk, effortlessly.

Ron, maybe "jumping" is not the ideal word?

Still, if jumping works.....

7 days till touch down at BC...ya hooooo!

G

[Ron]

yes, you are correct, jumping is not the correct word, I can't describe, so I will show. Its very much the same as skiing gates, its just an exaggerated turn where the transition is very quick and sharp

[buck]

I couldn't find any local shops that had a Monster 82 to demo, its hard to find a shop in the midwest that even carries them. I was able to demo the Stockli Stormrider XL again, it skis like a GS race ski on hard pack which I like. I wish I could have tested it in powder or crud, the best I could do was ski under the fresh stuff coming out of the guns. Pretty hard to tell much skiing over five foot mounds of wet snow. I like the way they skied on the hard pack and being 10mm wider than what I normally ski on, they should have the added versatility to handle the soft stuff. The ski was given a Gold Metal by ski magazine in the one quiver ski category, we'll find out!

[Ron]

Sounds good, please don't quote Ski or Skiing around here

[Barrettscv]

I skied the Dynastar Contact 11 today; this needs to be on everyone's list. Report to follow in the review area.

Michael 

[RickB]

I liked the Contact 11 a lot! Would like to here you thoughts Michael. How have the Aline's worked?

Rick

[Barrettscv]

A review of the 178cm Dynastar Contact 11 is posted in the Dynastar section.