Author Topic: Reverse Camber Skis  (Read 2214 times)

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Reverse Camber Skis
« on: October 20, 2006, 06:21:02 pm »
Well after everyone laughed at Michael for buying the Spatulas, I went back and did some research on reverse camber skis. My friend RadRab helped me alot after I pm'd him on Epic. I have come to the conclusion the reverse camber skis for soft snow (6" or more of powder) will revolutionize skiing and equipment the same way that shaped skis did 15 years ago. I will say in advance that these sksi are highly specialized, and I doubt they are worth a damn on hard snow (and might even be dangerous if you try to put them on edge and pressure the tips) but for deep powder I think it's clear that they allow an approcah to skiing that is absolutely impossible on traditonal skis.

Having said all this, I got bit by this bug and I have ordered a pair of Lotus 138's from Drake Powderworks www.dpskis.com

First of let me say that I have broken every rule of set forth by the participants on this forum. I never demo'd the skis, and in fact I have never even been on a reverse camber ski. As well, I paid full price for a ski that I have never demo'd. I must have really lost it. Yet, I have no buyers remorse. I read Shane McConkeys users guide for the Spatulas and I started to understand what reverse camber skis let you do in the pow. Imagine being able to stay forward and ride the tips in the pow!! That's what these skis enable you to do. Think of using race carving technique in the pow without having to pressure the tails to make the tips pop up!! I get excited just thinking about it.

Now I am very lucky in that my regular reasort is Squaw where they measure snow in feet and not inches. I had over 20 powder days last year at Squaw (not counting many I had in Colorado and Utah). This means I can justify having a dedicated deep powder ski (or at least it's a great rationalization for spending the money!!).

I should have my skis by early december, and weather permitting I will be back with a full review sometime that month. Hopefully it will be with a smile that won't come off my face.

Would love to hear anyone elses thoughts on this new technology. JB.

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


Barrettscv

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2006, 07:59:32 pm »
Congrats JB,

Powder skis are indeed a different tool than a hard snow ski. The Spat was the breakthrough ski. As is ofter the case, the follow-up designs are able to build on the positive features and reduce the negative issues of the archetype model.

I have an talented engineer in our division who taught me a new expression: "Its better to learn to shave on someone else's face"

I look forward to your review. I plan on keeping the Spats at least long enough to compare notes.

Cheers,

Michael
« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 08:19:39 pm by Barrettscv »

Gary

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2590
  • Location: Rochester, NY
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2006, 06:39:48 am »
Hey guys, you know I love the idea of new technology....

Just having a hard time getting my arms around this reverse camber idea for take to your mountain, leave them in the truck until needed, everyday skiing.

For skiing anywhere from crud to 3 feet of snow, the new midfats to fat boys are so well set up, it's just find center and soft edge your skis.

No need to be sitting back on the tails to keep the tips up...those skis are just that good. Ok, maybe when you get to snow that's deeper than the knees. the new concept ski really shines but? my Head 77's did an adequate job in that knee high stuff but only when I moved the bindings back...hence my shift to the Head 82's. I did realize after that experience that more float would be more advantageous in those circumstances.

I think we may agree that their shortfall is the reverse cambers versatility, but having said that, they may be great loads of fun and less work in snow above the knees.

Not having skied snow that deep, I can only dream.....but with the great mid-fat and fat boys on the market, I'm not seeing the need to shave the other guys face.

Well unless you're heading to Alaska or Tibet!

Still having new gear to test and report to us gear junkies is oh so kind of you guys....

Best,
Gary

Barrettscv

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2006, 10:39:56 am »
Hi Everyone,

The future of soft snow skiing gear includes the modified reverse camber ski such as the Lotus 138. Unlike the Spat, the Lotus has a center section of the ski which is very slightly cambered and with a very slight sidecut of 140-138-139. The ski does feature a reverse camber section in the front and the back.

The platform is much more stable on firm snow than a Spatula, so that the Lotus can be skied in transit to the deep stuff without the standing-on-a-dish feeling of the Spatula. Like the Spatula the skier does not have to counteract any tip dive and can balance on the balls of the feet in all soft snow conditions.

I'm speculating based on design of course, but I will be on the Spats soon and that will be an interesting day!

Cheers,

Michael

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2006, 12:08:05 pm »
Michale, JBotti:

Let me make sure we are using the same terminology.
Cambered ski.  Sitting flat on the floor, the center bows up off of the floor.
Reverse cambered.  Sitting flat on the floor, the ski make a smile with the tip and tail curving up.

Michael's description of the Lotus is interesting, and I didn't get it from the web page.  It sounds almost like a 'normal'  shorter ski with reverse cambered tips and tails added.  You primarily ski the center section on firm snow, and then the reverse cambered tip (and tail) helps to exert even more decambering force on the main ski body (relative to a normal ski) because of it's angle of attack into the snow?  So you decamber the entire ski at lower speeds?

JB, what caused you to select the 'dps' line and the Lotus out of the line?
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Barrettscv

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2006, 12:29:05 pm »
Michale, JBotti:

...Michael's description of the Lotus is interesting, and I didn't get it from the web page.? It sounds almost like a 'normal'? shorter ski with reverse cambered tips and tails added.? You primarily ski the center section on firm snow, and then the reverse cambered tip (and tail) helps to exert even more decambering force on the main ski body (relative to a normal ski) because of it's angle of attack into the snow?? So you decamber the entire ski at lower speeds?

JB, what caused you to select the 'dps' line and the Lotus out of the line?

Hi Jim,

My narrative is going out on a limb somewhat when I described the camber on the Lotus. DP describes a "center section" in all their dims. I have read blogs that allude to a flat or slightly cambered area under the bindings. I should let JB discuss...

Cheers,

Michael

jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2006, 01:38:31 pm »

First of let me say that I have broken every rule of set forth by the participants on this forum. I never demo'd the skis, and in fact I have never even been on a reverse camber ski.
 

JB:  You get another gold star in my book for your honesty.

I would imagine that we all, at one time or another (and maybe more than that), have made ski/boot/other purchases that we knew weren't entirely logical.  That doesn't mean that you don't know what you are doing and are oblivious to a potential downside  In my mind, it's one thing if you or Michael (or any knowledgeable consumer, for that matter) chooses to take a flyer on skis (or other equipment).  They know that's what they are doing. 

Where I think we all feel an obligation is the skier with less experience who may be considering a ski based on wrong information or inadequate experience to be an "informed consumer" that comes here for advice and opinions, and I do think we try to steer them into the demo, demo, demo paradigm. Or, at least, we try to get them to be honest with themselves about how they really ski and where they are likely to use the ski to provide a framework for informed advice.

I myself, seldom demo skis and haven't been disappointed in a ski selection (or a new car selection) in a long, long time.  But that's not necessarily what I would recommend for all others.

Sooo, congratulations on the honesty of your post.
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2006, 10:00:59 pm »
Jim, thanks for your kind words. Everyone is so nice here.

I actually have to give lots of the credit on these skis to my friend Rad Rab who got the bug before me while he was looking for the perfect powder ski. He did a lot of work reserching reverse camber skis and he came to the conclusion that DP was designing and producing the best skis. After doing some of the same reserach and reading lots of reviews, commenatray and after talking pretty extensively with the guys at DP, I have come to the same conclusion. I believe that they have taken what Volant started and improved on it (and I'm not sure that K2 has with the Pontoon). I think the biggest improvement is the carbon fiber sandwich construction which immediatley makes this ski torsionally stiffer and lighter than any of the reverse camber skis being made.

As for the cambered center, I don't know if this is the case. It could be, but I didn't ask alot of questions about hard snow performance. All reverse camber skis are going to be funky on hrad snow. They do say that one can put these on edge because there is actually sidecut (if you want to call 1mm sidecut!!). Still if you pressure the tips beacuse the camber is the opposite of a regular ski, the ski will attempt to trun the other way (which does not sound like fun).
For me the bottome line is that these skis are made for pow, and I am resigened to enduring what I need to do to get to the lift.

 As for why I chose the Lotus, this is their purest powder ski and the one that they think will revolutionize the industry. When I realized that I was sold on the idea of owning a reverse camber ski, and I was resigned to it being for highly specialized use, picking the full bore Lotus 138 was a decision that was simple. As well, this is the ski that the guys at DP rave about, and it is their permier powder ski.

I can't wait for a big dump so I can come back with a review. JB.


jim-ratliff

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2739
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2006, 10:45:43 pm »
Thanks.  Very interesting.  Did RadRab wind up buying DP as well?

I was glad to see he was back posting this year.  He had a couple of pretty rough times on the PMTS forum as well as on the Epic forum.  I wasn't sure whether they permanently banned him or not.

Of course, I don't know what I am really talking about, but just from an engineering point of view, I don't agree with your statement that "Still if you pressure the tips because the camber is the opposite of a regular ski, the ski will attempt to turn the other way (which does not sound like fun). "  The reverse camber of a normal ski is just to help distribute more pressure to the tip and tail of the ski when it is decambered.  It would seem like tipping a "pre-decambered" ski would still turn the same direction but with not as much bite?  Now if the ski is decambered and narrower at the tip, I can't figure out what it would do when tipped.

Can't wait for your review.
"If you're gonna play the game boy, ya gotta learn to play it right."

Barrettscv

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2006, 07:54:50 am »
Reverse camber skis, by their very nature, are a quantum leap in design that has revolutionary implications for both technique and snow grooming. My comments are based on research and I look forward to writing a review of the Spatula soon.

First of all, we need to think in terms of un-groomed snow conditions that can only be found above 6000ft. If the groomer has been there, it's better to be on a conventional ski. If the slopes are firm & icy due to being groomed, skied, thawed and refrozen, it's probably unskiable in a reverse camber ski. But if the skier has multiple skis, the reverse camber ski can be used on those days when the snow is soft and never icy.

East Coast conditions make a reverse camber ski useless. I'd rather be on a Race Carver or Mid-fat during a New England snow event than on any wide ski regardless of camber or sidecut. Why? Within a few hours there will be enough ice and moguls to defeat the benefits of a ski that was meant to float in 3D conditions.

One of the myths about reverse camber skis is that the snow must be DEEP. The surface must be soft, but not necessarily deep. The turn shape in soft snow is an outcome of camber & flex, not sidecut. This is the case regardless of conventional or reverse sidecut design when skiing in soft snow.

In soft snow, side cut is not a benefit, and skis with wide tips tend to promote tip crossing. Tip crossing is common to beginner deep snow skiers on conventional skis. It occurs when the downhill ski is excessively weighted. The highly flexed conventional ski in 3D conditions turns rapidly, crossing the tips, and causing a face plant. The more the skier uses carving technique the more difficult powder becomes.

The owners of Spatulas that I have spoken with explained to me than only a thin-soft layer on the surface is required for use. Every turn is a smeared turn. The sliding ski on a soft surface will accumulate a wedge of snow and the skier will surf in control on this wedge. In Utah & Colorado and other deep snow regions, I expect that even groomed slopes are soft enough for this thin-soft layer to exist.

Attempting to use carving technique with a reverse camber ski is not only useless, it?s dangerous. I plan on starting with diagonal sideslips to master the ski on steeper runs. I also plan to hockey-stop every turn on firm snow. Carving a turn? Maybe at speed in deep snow it will feel like carving, I?m not sure. I will be able to pressure the tips and not be required to compensate against tip dive and tip crossing. Turn initiation will be easier and speed will be my friend!

When the merge areas turn to concrete and the crud has been trampled, I will grab my Monsters or even my Worldcup skis and play on hardpack. My planned usage will go like this;
Fischer WC RC: 90% hard snow with 10% boot-top deep snow in places.
Volant Spatula: 90% deep snow with 10% "packed powder" while in transit to the deep stuff.
Head Monster 88: everything else, this will usually be some soft, some firm & some deep.

The three ski quiver will allow me to travel with two (not three) pairs. If the weather reports indicate no new snow, the Volant stays home. If the weather indicates a good chance of deep snow, the Fischers will stay home.

But for those precious days of deep snow I will have the right tool and the right technique.

Cheers,

Michael
« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 08:41:27 am by Barrettscv »

Gary

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2590
  • Location: Rochester, NY
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2006, 01:35:55 pm »
Nicely stated Michael..

The concept of the reverse camber ski does intrigue me. I have been in deeper wet snow where the front ends tends to dive and you have to be so ever soft on the edges not to hook up too quickly.

It may be in light to medium light snow conditions, traditional skis for the skilled rider are the right tool.

In heavy wet snow at any depth, the reverse camber skis may make it a dream to ski for any skier level.

I guess one could say there's a ski for every particular condition.....hmmmm m, you know guys, all we need now are SKI CADDIES!!! Now wouldn't that be the ticket~!!

Best,
Gary






Brendan

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2006, 11:40:05 pm »
Hi,

I am a competent skier and have surfed all over the world (including the big waves of Hawaii).  Powder skiing and surfing are very similar - much more so than hardpack skiing.  In fact skiing on hardpack is nothing like surfing.  The powder has characteristics that behave like riding a surfboard on water.  All surfboards are reverse cambered  - we don't call it that - we call it rocker (the banana shape from nose to tail).   The rocker in a surfboard is massively critical to the entire design - it is not there just so the board won't plough tip first below the water.  Surfboard shapers have playing with rocker - lines for over 40 years and this one aspect alone will completely change the board's behaviour. The rocker is absolutely critical to how the board will respond to the medium of the water as well as the wave.  So even though I have never tried a reverse camber ski, it makes a lot of sense.

Brendan

Ron

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2992
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2006, 07:33:21 am »
I hope that I one day get into powder worthy of trying these out!? BTW- what is RadRabs name over here? I supported him recently over at EPIC where they were not understanding his posts, I think he was a bit over manys' heads. For some reason I thought that was Jim ratliff?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 11:24:06 am by Ron »

Gary

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 1000 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 2590
  • Location: Rochester, NY
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2006, 01:26:38 pm »
Surfs up dudes....it's wet, it's heavy, it's deep....shreddn' time fellow rads!

"Oh Ski Caddy, break out the Big Kahuma, it's time to hang ten"

I'm hearing sounds of Hawaii Five O in my musical mind....


Got to get me a ride on those bad boys!

Gary

jbotti

  • 6+ Year Member
  • 400 Posts
  • ******
  • Posts: 961
Re: Reverse Camber Skis
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2006, 02:22:09 pm »
Surfs up is right!! I am completely convinced that this will be the fastest growing category in gear over the next 5 years. I believe that in the next two years these skis will be picked up by the dominant gear companies (Atomic, Head, Volkl, K2 which already has one etc) and then they will market the benifits in soft snow. Terrain that only advanced and expert skiers entered wll be the everyday playground for intermediates (when there is fresh snow). Skiing as a recreational family sport will explode as the amount of fun an intermdiate can have will grow exponentially (let's face it, when you are stemming turns on blue terrain skiing isn't all that much fun unless you are new to the sport and advancing quickly). This is no less impactful to the industry that the advent of shaped skis.

The good news for all the gear and tech hounds on this forum, is that we are clearly still in the early adpater phase. My bet is that Drake Powderworks sells less than 1000 pairs of skis per year (of course I could be wrong, this is just a guess and not even an educated one).

As for RadRab, I have relayed to him that his presence here is missed (and no he is not Jim Ratliff!!). Whether he wishes to resume the addiction (and let's be honest posting does have that quality at times) will be his decision. He was quite appreciative of everyone's comments.

As for me, every night I go to bed dreaming of riding my Lotus 138's in 3 feet of fresh. Unfortunately last night I got so excited I couldn't get to sleep. I think this means I am officially a gear hound in spades!!