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Other Stuff => Biking and other Non-Skiing Activities => Topic started by: jim-ratliff on May 14, 2011, 07:58:46 pm


Title: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 14, 2011, 07:58:46 pm
I need some advice on how to get started when riding moderately steep uphill sections with very loose surface conditions. As you can see from the pictures (if I can get them attached) there is an excess of water.  Some sections were washed out or too muddy for this 62 year old to ride through.
 One time I fell trying to get started on an uphill section.  I stepped on the pedal to start, my rear wheel spun, no forward momentum, gravity did it's thing.  Any tips for dealing with loose gravelley surfaces on jeep trails appreciated.

!
A couple of pictures when I can.
 
PS.  As most of you know, this is the first year of Lynn and I riding mountain bikes, but there are some challenges ( having a blast in general though!).  Loose gravel and rocks is the current big one - sort of tosses the bike around, especially going downhill at speed. We both are working on keeping on weight forward on these sections and low.
What are your thoughts?
 
Jim

[attachment removed after 60 days]
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: LivingProof on May 16, 2011, 07:08:33 am
Jim,
Can offer no advise about Mtn. Biking, but, our new member Bushwacker is an expert, so, perhaps he could be enticed to offer some thoughts. Paging Mr. Bushwacker.

Pwehaps, a drawback to our revised software format with specific headings is that others may just not see the summer biking threads. This was a benefit of the old Open Discussion as a catch-all for any topic and very visible when logging in . Discussion??


Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 16, 2011, 08:07:54 am

No hurry.  I'm sure Svend or BW or Ron will see it at some point.

Yes to the layout, sort of the same problem as the ski reviews being at the bottom of the old layout.
I'm OK with the biking stuff being "second class" citizens compared to the main view.  Certainly like the ski reviews up top, and High Angles or others may have suggestions for more/different categories of ski reviews.

Part of the problem in this particular incident was that I was already in my lowest gear heading up the hill, so very little wheel rotation was generated from that initial push of the pedal when I restarted.  So I learned that I need to be up a couple of gears when starting, less torque to the wheel => less spinning of the wheel => more wheel rotation and momentum.  But getting started uphill is a challenge.  Hard to pedal one footed while trying to get the other foot cleated in.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: bushwacka on May 17, 2011, 07:04:10 am
I need some advice on how to get started when riding moderately steep uphill sections with very loose surface conditions. As you can see from the pictures (if I can get them attached) there is an excess of water.  Some sections were washed out or too muddy for this 62 year old to ride through.
 One time I fell trying to get started on an uphill section.  I stepped on the pedal to start, my rear wheel spun, no forward momentum, gravity did it's thing.  Any tips for dealing with loose gravelley surfaces on jeep trails appreciated.

!
A couple of pictures when I can.
 
PS.  As most of you know, this is the first year of Lynn and I riding mountain bikes, but there are some challenges ( having a blast in general though!).  Loose gravel and rocks is the current big one - sort of tosses the bike around, especially going downhill at speed. We both are working on keeping on weight forward on these sections and low.
What are your thoughts?
 
Jim

for the uphill your second post has the right idea. Using a slightly higher gear is a great start. when I ride gears...I normally ride/ race a Single Speed......on gears thoug I generally am in the middle ring in the front and 1-3 for steep loose uphills. Other tips to maintain traction are

- keep chest low while pulling back on the handlebars
- stay seated
- use tubeless tires set at 25 psi + or - 5 psi

as for starting uphill it tough and no one tip is going to help you here. There is hope and the hope I can give you is this. Learn to track stand. Learning to be still while on the pedals is key skill for alot of things especially starting uphill. Here is a pretty good video out showing how to do it. I was teaching MTB clinics last year and it is the first thing we teach anyone new to MTBing. Also alot of experienced riders found some new capabilities on trails after learning to track stand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj96L3yD4z0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj96L3yD4z0) is it possible to embed video here?

another note on starting uphill is to use the slighter higher gears mentioned above

on the downhill leaning forward and getting low sounds like a recipe for a endo to me. On loose rocks and gravel your going to get thrown around alittle. I personally hate that stuff and it scares me alot to ride because it is like ICE on skis, there are times where you simply can not control what the bike will do.

As for where you COM should be though, it should be centered and your butt should be off your seat. This will let you adjust to the terrain better than forward and low. As with skiing you have to be vary your pressure on the wheels for and back and up and down. A centered stance that is taller will let you do that.

people who decend statically normally end up wrecked, learning to be just slightly active from a centered stance is not only safer its also more fun. I have take people in their 60s and 70s to the BMX track on skills days so they can learn how to absorb and be proactive and not jsut reactive to terrain. Not only that the drill in the video is great cross training for skiing.

http://www.vimeo.com/7519302 (http://www.vimeo.com/7519302)

BTW GT - i drive? those are some of the best Full Suspension design on a bike on the planet and I would be stoked to own one. Also where do you ride at?


-
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 17, 2011, 07:47:02 am

Bushwacka:

Thanks.  Just knowing that its a real challenge even for a "competent" rider and not something we are doing totally wrong is reassuring. The COM advice for going downhill is what others have advised, on our recent ride Lynn liked the feel of the bike going downhill at 18mph with more weight over the front wheel, but you are right in that she will need to get that weight back in a hurry before she applies the brakes.  Pulling "back" on the handlebars is a tip -- I was pulling up as I would with my road bike and found my front wheel getting bounced into the air so I stopped that (and slowed the rebound on the front shock).

Thanks for the video, will look at it tonight.  My brief look at the "Track Stand" is intimidating.

We use them for cross country type riding, not downhill or challenging stuff.  I ride some local trails here in Fairfax County Virginia and along the C&O Canal towpath from Washington DC north;  Lynn lives near the Delaware River in New York and has lots of roads/trails in her area.  Ten Mile River Boy Scout camp (12,000 acres) is less than 5 miles of dirt roads from her house, and we've had a couple of memorable rides there already (including one where we got a bit lost).

Thanks for the compliment on the bike selection. Yes, GT Marathon Carbon Pro with XT components and XTR shifters.  We got great deals last Christmas on prior year models from Performance Bike.  The pedaling is really smooth, I guess that is the I-Drive and the RP23 shocks performing as advertised.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: bushwacka on May 17, 2011, 08:01:03 am

Bushwacka:

Thanks.  Just knowing that its a real challenge even for a "competent" rider and not something we are doing totally wrong. The COM advice for going downhill is what others have advised, on our recent ride Lynn liked the feel of the bike going downhill at 12mph?? with more weight over the front wheel, but you are right in that she will need to get that weight back in a hurry before she applies the breaks.  Pulling "back" on the handlebars is a good idea -- I was pulling up as I would with my road bike and found my front wheel getting bounced into the air so I stopped that (and slowed the rebound on the front shock).

Thanks for the video, will look at it tonight.  My brief look at the "Track Stand" is intimidating.

We use them for cross country type riding, not downhill or challenging stuff.  I ride some local trails here in Fairfax County Virginia and along the C&O Canal towpath from Washington DC north;  Lynn lives near the Delaware River in New York and has lots of roads/trails in her area.  Ten Mile River Boy Scout camp (12,000 acres) is less than 5 miles of dirt roads from her house, and we've had a couple of memorable rides there already (including one where we got a bit lost).

Thanks for the compliment on the bike selection. Yes, GT Marathon Carbon Pro with XT components and XTR shifters.  We got great deals last Christmas on prior year models from Performance Bike.  The pedaling is really smooth, I guess that is the I-Drive and the RP23 shocks performing as advertised.

on the track stand.

Put flat pedal on the bike to learn it. Also the instructor in the video looks downs and I highly recommend looking up.

Also I could not see what pedal where on the bike, but shimano SPDs are the best for MTBing(and for track stands). I personally am really scared to ride crank bros because of the clip falls I have had on them. The weight saving of the Crank bros comes are price of way harder to get out of, way easier to break, and the spindles break all the time.  Despite the know issues people keep buying them and there is 1000s of thread on the internet of people complaining about what I am saying.

Crank bros's pedal can let you get stuck in the pedals , SPDs can be adjust to come off really easily.

I am bascially just a XC rider as well currently my only MTB is a hardtail singlespeed, and quite frankly freeride stuff scares the hell out of me looking at it.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 17, 2011, 08:22:05 am

Hmmm.  Crank Brothers Candy SL's (not the Eggbeaters) so a flat pedal with the cleat in the middle.

I had a pair of SPD's I used on my road bike when I first started riding 3 years back when I wasn't sure I wanted cleated pedals at all.  I like the Candy's better than those (but that was then and this is now and I've learned a lot since then).

Do you have a particular pedal you ride/recommend?
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: LivingProof on May 17, 2011, 05:35:45 pm

BTW GT - i drive? those are some of the best Full Suspension design on a bike on the planet and I would be stoked to own one. Also where do you ride at?


BW and/or Jim

I just saw this available on a local Craigslist for $750. More than I want to spend, but, I'd appreciate any thoughts.

GT i-Drive 4 4.0 MTB
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 17, 2011, 06:58:27 pm
LP:

I'm a bit honored to be "bike consultant" but I'm not feeling very qualified.

I searched for the iDrive 4 4.0 phrase and came up with a couple of results.  Overall, the other threads at mtbr that I have read over time have been informative.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=391262 (http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=391262)
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=216274 (http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=216274)

If you are thinking about a mountain bike, then you should do some store shopping and try to get smarter, even if you want to buy used.  For Lynn and I, the weight of a steel full suspension bike (at the Yough) was really a turn off.  We would not have gotten full suspension if we hadn't been able to get the weight under 28 pounds at what we could afford.
Full suspension will be heavy unless you move up to the higher end.
29 hardtails will ride better than 26 hardtail.
I think you are big enough framed that you should really consider a 29 hardtail.  That's what Svend rides, and he is 6'3" or so. I think you are close to that?
Is a Large GT frame the right size.  May need to visit bike store to know what the right size is.  I was in between a Medium and Large, and wound up gettting the Large and that feels very comfortable now -- but it felt really stretched out in the beginning since I was coming from a road bike.  My road bike feels like riding in a go-cart.

My biases.  My son's Trek had the twist grip shifters.  I like the trigger shifters better.
A lockout on the front shock (or at least some rebound adjustment) is very desirable.  Otherwise when you get out of the saddle and pedal hard the front shock bobs up and down and wastes energy.
Fox and Rockshox are the two better shock brands.
I'm not smart enough to know what to watch out for in a used MTB.

SVEND? ??? ?
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: LivingProof on May 18, 2011, 06:15:45 am
Jim,

thanks for the thoughts, the GT bike just popped up for sale and I did check the Mountain Bike reviews for it. I've done the shop checks, test rides, and rode some used bikes in local test rides, came close to a purchase a couple of times. Funny, but the one I should have bought was the first I rode, but, I was not knowledgeable at that time. I will not pursue this GT.

My needs in a MTN bike are very minimal as local terrain is not interesting and very limited, especially in the summer season.  It's just been a fun thing checking them out. I may ride a Trek Fuel 98 on Monday.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 18, 2011, 07:17:16 am



Mike:  What are your thoughts about 29" hardtails, since you are taller than me.  I test rode a couple, and they do ride better than 26" but they really felt much bigger than a 26", much more so than they look.  And, the biggest disadvantage for me, they didn't fit well in the back of my RAV 4.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 18, 2011, 10:46:17 am
Mike:
I didn't realize that you had been considering adding a mountain bike to your quiver, evidently for a while -- but I fully support your decision. Lynn and I are really enjoying the flexibility that not being limited to surfaced roads allows. Good luck with a purchase.

Are you targeting the Finger Lakes Century with Helluva this year?
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: bushwacka on May 18, 2011, 09:58:17 pm
Jim,

thanks for the thoughts, the GT bike just popped up for sale and I did check the Mountain Bike reviews for it. I've done the shop checks, test rides, and rode some used bikes in local test rides, came close to a purchase a couple of times. Funny, but the one I should have bought was the first I rode, but, I was not knowledgeable at that time. I will not pursue this GT.

My needs in a MTN bike are very minimal as local terrain is not interesting and very limited, especially in the summer season.  It's just been a fun thing checking them out. I may ride a Trek Fuel 98 on Monday.

I am alittle late to the party but yeah the GT is junk. Has nothing to do with the weight but more of the shitty component spec on it. Especially when working with a budget weight is the last thing you want to think about. There are 30 lb bike that will out climb 25lb bikes just due to superior design of the suspension.

I dont know which you want to get and really dont want to sway you anyway, but will say that the philly area has some really cool under appreciated riding, and Pa as a whole probably has more singletrack than any other state in the union.

Some generally thoughts on Mountain bikes

most Hardtails ride rough, steel, carbon and Ti ride smoother than Aluminum , but most hardtails are AL and AL hardtail absolutely suck from a smoothness and roughness stand point. Quite frankly they ride like jack hammers.

rear suspension is great if the design is good and currently there are only handful of designs that work well. Most of the big name bike companies dont make it though. Giant, GT, Turner, Ibis, Niner, Santa Cruz,Haro(Sonix series) and intense are some companies with suspension that works well. alot of big names make some pretty bad designs that they try to mask with lock out, two of the worst offenders are Special Ed and Trek.

29er can be great as long there arent alot of tight turns. They roll faster and better over most stuff you find on your typical XC style trails but can be slow to accelerate and weigh more than a 26er. They can work for alot of people.

For the record I ride a Single Speed Steel hardtail 29er most but do not thing it is to answer to everyone's riding desire.  Although I would recommend most newer ride to a 26er with about 5 inches of travel front and rear.


Lastly tubeless tires are IMO the biggest improvement you can do from a performance stand point to any off road bike. They save weight. cut down on flats,and let you run a grippier,softer and faster, lower pressure.

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 18, 2011, 11:00:44 pm
Lastly tubeless tires are IMO the biggest improvement you can do from a performance stand point to any off road bike. They save weight. cut down on flats,and let you run a grippier,softer and faster, lower pressure.


BW: 
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: bushwacka on May 19, 2011, 05:58:49 am
Lastly tubeless tires are IMO the biggest improvement you can do from a performance stand point to any off road bike. They save weight. cut down on flats,and let you run a grippier,softer and faster, lower pressure.


BW: 
  • Are you saying that running tires at lower pressures make them roll easier and therefore faster, or that you can ride faster with low pressure when traction is limited.  I assumed that higher pressures allowed them to roll easier (like with car tires) on the road, but at the expense of traction off the road.  We've been riding with higher pressures for the easier rolling at the expense of grip in some situations.
  • I have Mavic CrossRide wheels and Kenda Karma tires, both are tubeless compatible but the bike came with tubes.  Do you think I should ditch the tubes?
  • What SPD pedals do you use or recommend?

1. Lower pressure about 25 psi for most people, actually rolls faster for most people off road. The lower pressure is more supple and in an off road situation will let the tire absorb terrain instead of being deflected. Not only that lower pressures are easier to ride on and have more traction and ride smoother. Now if your riding alot of pavement or really packed gravel then yes a higher pressure will roll faster but that is not the same situation as singletrack, or rough double track riding. On rough enough gravel road the lower pressure will roll faster.

the other things most people dont understand is off road a wider tires roll faster, because the contact patch is shorter than a narrow tire there for the leverage against it is much less meaning less deflection. Deflection is what causes a tire to slow down. Deflection is simply a tire being to hard.

http://www.mtbonline.co.za/info/mtb-tyre-rolling-resistance.htm

here is a test conducted with a power meter. there can be as much as 50 watt difference between a 2.1 tire inflated to 40 psi, and a 2.4 tire inflated at 23 psi.

please before someone comes in here and post that higher pressure on narrow tires I want you to find scientific data stating so. This is a measurable quality and if it was true someone would have been able to measure it, or you can go a find a power meter and measure it yourself. I love debating, but debating a know fact that is proven in science is like debating whether or not the sky is blue.

Also lastly I just want to add that the defacto tire setup for most men racing on the World Cup XC, is a 2.35 ish inflated to 20 to 30 psi mounted tubeless. The last time a tubed tire won a WC was 1999. The physics behind this has been know and applied for that long.

2. should you ditch the tubes?

yes! you have a wheelset and tire that have more weight so they can be run tubeless, and then you add more weight with a tube. I will never ride a MTB(or any bike really) with a tube in it again. there is no advantage to a tubed tire.


3.On pedal I like SPD and here is why.

SPD vs Crank bros

SPDs have adjustable release meaning you cannt get stuck in them
SPDs are a stronger design that is less likely to break
SPDs now have an open design as well meaning they will not get clog with mud like the old ones
SPDs dont get you stuck in the pedals at all.
Cranks bros are lighter

overall Id rather take a heavier more reliable pedal that actually let me release foot, than the death trap Crank Bros that get your feet stuck in them, and break when they see a rock on the trail.

I personally use 540s, and mine have last about 2200 mile thus far. I think if you picked out your weight and budget you couldnt go wrong with them.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 19, 2011, 07:53:48 am

Josh:

Thanks a lot.  That is all extremely interesting.

So, air pressures are going down unless there is a lot of asphalt that is part of the ride and I'm going to check out making the tubeless migration.

I'll probably continue to ride the existing tires, but will go wider when they get replaced.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on May 30, 2011, 08:20:33 am
Hi All....sorry....qui te late joining this chat.  Been on the road again.

Not sure I can add much that hasn't already been said.  I pretty much agree with everything BW (Josh?) has already posted....

Mike -- you were asking about 29ers....well, for the right rider and in the right terrain, 29ers are great! Except in tight trees and narrow trails where there are a lot of tight turns.  Their turn radius is not as tight as a 26er, so lack some of their agility.  Wide bars (flat or low-rise) at 680 to 700 mm, work best with these, but that makes the tight-tree navigation even more tricky (although my shoulders are kinda wide too, so that is a moot point for me...I just stay out of tight trees, just like when I ski).  OTOH, their fluid ease of rolling over roots and rocks and large gravel is brilliant.  They smooth out the ride, and negate the need for rear suspension except in the roughest terrain.  For a guy my size (6'2"), the 29er is the FIRST mountain bike that I felt actually really fit me.  On 26ers, I always felt like I was riding a kids bike, or a BMX.  I ride a Fischer 29er hard tail, and FWIW, I rarely unlock the front fork -- for the terrain in our area, I could easily do away with the front shocks altogether...the 29er geometry is just that smooth.  Keep the tire pressure low (~25 to 30 psi) in the rough stuff, and it is totally controllable and absorbs an amazing amount of vibration and impact.  My next bike may just be a rigid 29er, steel frame, carbon forks.   ;D   8)

BW -- good advice on tubeless.  Might just try that, as my rims and tires are "tubeless ready".  But, what happens if I'm in the middle of the woods, 20km away from my truck, and a tire goes flat? How the heck do I fix it without invoking a one-hour procedure? At least with tubes, I carry a spare and some irons, and can swap a tube in 10 to 15 minutes.  Otherwise, tubeless is certainly appealing -- if nothing else, at least for the weight savings -- 29ers are a tad heavier. 

Jim -- the advice BW gave about body position for climbing and downhill is right on.  Uphill, keep yer butt on the seat, lean forward, get low, pull up on bars to unwieght the front wheel (rolls over bumps easier, less jarring), and pedal your guts out.  Personally, I have a really hard time starting a climb halfway up a hill, at least with cleated pedals -- in the old days, before SPD and Eggbeaters, I could do it on an easy slope; but with cleats, forget it.  I usually end up just carrying the bike up  ::)   I have thought of buying the Wellgo 1/2-and-1/2 pedals (model WPD-95B), which are SPD cleat click-in on one side, and rat trap on the other....just flip em over and use the rat trap in tricky terrain, such as starting uphill where you need to get cranking, like, right now! Or in spots where you may have to bail and would fall if you were clicked in.  They only weigh 20 grams more than a Shimano 520, but may be worth the extra versatility, and may save you (and me) from a nasty fall.  (See below, also, for comments on a new kind of easy-release cleat)

As for downhill, as I said before, get yer butt off the seat, slide it backwards a little bit or a lot, depending how steep it is, to keep your COM to the rear.  I find it really helps to stabilize the bike if I clamp the saddle between my thighs -- keeps the bike from jerking around side-to-side, keeps your body aligned with the bike, and makes for a much smoother descent.  On really steep descents, my butt is waaay back, off and behind the seat, out in the open air directly over the rear wheel.....not a pretty sight, a bulbous orb hanging there  :o  but I'm usually at the back of the pack so no one has yet crashed from fright or laughter.   ;D

And always keep your elbows bent! to flex and absorb the bumps...  Having started mtn. biking 20 years ago on rigid, steel frame 26ers, we had to use our body's joints as the suspension....ankle s, knees, hips, elbows.....just 'cause you have a full-suss bike doesn't mean that you too shouldn't use them....they are a very valuable tool, and as you get better, they allow you to tighten up the bike's suspension for a firmer ride.  Less Buick, more BMW  :D

On the subject of pedals and cleats and easy release, I just installed some new Shimano cleats on my wife's shoes -- the SM-SH56.  These are said to be multi-release, meaning they release more easily in all directions than the standard cleats, which is really supposed to help in a panic bail-out.  Having injured her knee skiing (no ACL, no meniscus now), she has been most reluctant to try the single track in our local forest for fear of falling and re-injuring herself because she may not be able to unclick in a hurry.  First easy ride yesterday and the initial feedback was very good -- much easier for her to unclick.  With the standard cleats (SH51) she always had trouble unclicking in one direction, but not the other, and never laterally upward, and this lack of a quick escape made her very nervous when we got into some gnarly terrain.  Will report back later on these as she gets more rides in.  BTW, the rider reviews on the web about these cleats are all very positive, so they seem to work.  If they work well for her, I'll buy them for myself too.  At $20, cheap insurance against possible injury.  OTOH, if they're no good, then it's the Wellgo pedals fer sure.

Hope this helps....

Cheers!  And Happy Memorial Day holiday, to y'all south of the border.....






Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on May 30, 2011, 11:11:30 am
A couple of further comments:

On tire width -- I agree with BW, except that before you go wider, you need to check out the weight of the new tire compared to what you're replacing.  Depending on the tire, there can be anywhere from 100g to 200g + difference (1/4 to 1/2 lb!) between, say a 2.00 tire and a 2.20 (check out the specs on the Kenda Karma to see for yourself).  If you're trying to keep the weight of the bike to a minimum, then adding a half-pound to each wheel can really make a difference to acceleration, energy input, etc.  On short, technical rides this is probably fine, and the benefits of a wider tire would far outweigh (pardon the pun) the drawbacks.  OTOH, over a long cross-country ride, that extra weight will really make itself apparent in the last hour of the ride.  Even more so if you are doing multi-day rides back-to-back.  By Day 3 you will wish you had lighter tires -- I learned this two years ago when I rode with my Father-in-law on Vancouver Island -- three days of open-trail XC riding, 3 hours per day, with all-mountain tires that weighed about 800g+ each (~1.5 lbs).  After Day 2 I was ready to go straight to the nearest shop and put on some Kenda Small Block Eights.  Bottom line -- pick the tires that suit where you ride, and for how long.  Maybe keep two sets and swap em as needed:  one for long XC rides / smoother terrain; and one for more rugged terrain / shorter rides.

On pedals -- I use the Shimano M520, which I like.  Open design sheds the mud; easy to click in and out.  Terryl has the M505, but I am going to change these, as they are a closed design and the mud really gets packed in there.  Slightly heavier too.  Will probably put M520 or M540 on her bike.  Ditto BW's thoughts on Crank Bros -- all the riders here that I have talked to hate them.  They're light, and look kinda cool, but are a major health hazard as clicking out is not easy.  Not sure if that is true of all their pedals, or just the Eggbeaters.

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 30, 2011, 08:15:45 pm
Svend: 

Thanks for the confirming pedal advice.  Lynn and I are currently using the Crank Bros Candy pedal (has a real pedal with the spring mechanism in the middle) and find them very easy to get out of, but will wait on your/Terryl's thoughts on the SF56 and then consider upgrading to those of SP540.

Point well taken regarding tire weight.  I have Mavic wheels that are UST and "thought" that my tires were also, and really wondered why they put tubes in them at the factory.  NOT, and the UST Kenda Karma's are almost 400 grams heavier than the ones I have.  That's an amazingly lot of extra weight to go tubeless.

My picture of the day.

[attachment removed after 60 days]
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on May 31, 2011, 07:18:05 am
Hey Jim -- nice pic! Ain't riding over stream beds fun?! I love it.  We have a shallow river here that we cross on occasion, water up to the axles, but so refreshing on a hot day.  Feel like a little kid, again, splashing in the river.

Looks like the Candy are the same as Eggbeaters, but with a platform frame.  Am I seeing that correctly? No issues clicking out in a hurry? How do you find egress compared to the SPD pedals on your road bike? Any falls yet? Hey, if they work, then I guess there's no reason to swap.  Shimano pedals will be a bit heavier....about 100g, I'm guessing.  Terryl and I will be out again tomorrow, so will post back with more feedback from her on the new cleats.

Re. tubeless -- I can see why that is appealing, in order to run lower tire pressure and ease some of the harsh ride of an aluminum frame bike.  Better traction too.  That was the first thing I noticed when test riding, coming from a steel frame bike to aluminum, was the harsh transmission of vibration and impact through the frame.  Some hard tail aluminum 26ers with super stiff frames were brutal...the tiniest pebble would go straight up the seat post.  I REALLY miss the feel of the steel frame....I loved it.  Although, that is another reason I like the 29er size so much, is that the larger wheels absorb a lot of that -- run the tires at 25 psi off-road, and it's a great ride.  But....I would go to a steel frame 29er any time.  Niner Bikes make a light CrMo steel frame that you can fit with a carbon fork....SWEET!!!!  Would probably not weigh more than 20 or 22 lbs fully dressed.   8)

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 31, 2011, 08:17:30 am
Yes, the Candy is a platform with the eggbeater springs in the middle. The platform lets me peddle without cleating if I want, and they come out easier than my road bike pedals but those are the much bigger triangular cleat. I do like having the platform part, and it seems like it would spread the load over more of the sole rather than right at the cleat as the pure eggbeaters would do.

Interesting thought about eliminating the front suspension, and relying on the carbon fork for even more dampness (and less weight).  We were riding single track yesterday with lots of roots exposed across the trail, anywhere from 2-5 inches high.  I was quite impressed with how well the full suspensions handled that (right up to the point where one diagonal root threw the bike sideways out from under me).  Lesson learned - like railroad tracks, need to slow down a bit more and hit the roots as head-on as possible.  Hardest fall I've taken as far back as I can remember.

One of the things that really surprised me when I first decided to try cycling was the difference in dampness between the aluminum and carbon fiber bike. Really didn't care for the feel of aluminum at all.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on May 31, 2011, 09:00:06 am
I hear you -- almost every aluminum hard tail I tested was just too harsh for my liking, to the point that I was seriously considering full suspension (gasp! sacrilege!), which I really didn't want for various reasons; or rebuilding my old steel frame bike, which was not a great option either due to poor frame fit to my size.  Until I started testing 29ers, I was actually looking at the few rare steel frame 26ers that are still being made.  Jamis makes one, and a couple of other smaller makers do too.  Carbon fiber just wasn't in my budget, although I was sorely tempted.  Scandium is better than aluminum wrt. harsh ride, but was hard to find here.

If I ever start riding a road bike, it will be either a rebuild of an old vintage steel frame racing bike (there is one sitting in our garage gathering dust.....winter project?), or a carbon frame.  I cannot imagine riding an aluminum frame road bike with tires inflated rock-hard.  I'd have to slip an inch-thick neoprene pad down the back of my shorts  :o  just to be able to ride it.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on May 31, 2011, 09:24:04 am
Have to ask:  were you hurt in yesterday's fall? All parts intact? Bruised ego, though, eh?

So glad you and Lynn are having so much fun on your bikes.  It really is a blast.  I can see why skiers gravitate (another bad pun...yikes  :D) to this sport as their summertime adrenaline fix.  Tearing down a hard packed trail through the woods at Mach 2 on a crisp cold fall morning.....awesome!
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 31, 2011, 10:42:24 am
I hear you -- almost every aluminum hard tail I tested was just too harsh for my liking, to the point that I was seriously considering full suspension (gasp! sacrilege!), which I really didn't want for various reasons; or rebuilding my old steel frame bike, which was not a great option either due to poor frame fit to my size.  Until I started testing 29ers, I was actually looking at the few rare steel frame 26ers that are still being made.  Jamis makes one, and a couple of other smaller makers do too.  Carbon fiber just wasn't in my budget, although I was sorely tempted.  Scandium is better than aluminum wrt. harsh ride, but was hard to find here.

If I ever start riding a road bike, it will be either a rebuild of an old vintage steel frame racing bike (there is one sitting in our garage gathering dust.....winter project?), or a carbon frame.  I cannot imagine riding an aluminum frame road bike with tires inflated rock-hard.  I'd have to slip an inch-thick neoprene pad down the back of my shorts  :o  just to be able to ride it.


I would include titanium in your road bike project possibilities.  Lynn has an older GT titanium bike and I'm pretty sure it is similar to carbon in dampness -- but isn't currently "in vogue" so older LiteSpeeds are arouind.
She sold Doug's first racing bike, which was a Litespeed with Campagnola Record  components for about $600 through the local bikeshop.  (a side benefit, unless the thief is really knowledgeable, titanium doesn't distinguish itself as a target the way carbon does).


Fall didn't require a doctor's visit, but left side of rib cage is quite tender.



Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 31, 2011, 10:48:48 am
A few years back when I was looking for a new mtb I got caught up in all the bike tech and because of this I almost ended up with a hardtail due to the increased effeciency (pedal stroke energy isn't lost to the rear shock). Before my purchase I had a long talk with a friend that is a mtb expert. The long and short of that was to focus on what I, as a recreational rider, wanted. I ride in rough terrain and wanted a bike that would smooth it out as much as possible. I ride for excercise so having a ride that was somewhat less effecient is a hidden benefit (more exercise work done in the same period of time). So, after much hand wringing I ended up with a full suspension stumpjumper fsr. I really didn't want to pay for the big name brands as I figured I was getting less for my money, but I found a previous years model and got a good price on the bike and the bike's geometry was a very good fit. I could probably have done better but I had a limited amount of time to shop and wanted to get out on the trails on a bike that would feel good. It's a gret ride and I've never regretted the purchase. Currently riding with the SPD but planning on moving to a flat pedal. I've managed to get out of the SPDs when needed but had a few close calls. I think weight matters less than most realize for recreational riding and has that same hidden benefit of more exercise work done while out riding which is the goal for many of us!


Max: Agreed.  It depends on how and where you ride -- and Lynn and I have never regretted our full suspension decision.  At our ages, weight is more of an issue when lifting the bike than riding it.  We had storms late last week, so the weekend ride included some downed trees that were waist high for her.  Lifting her bike over a waist high tree trunk is much easier with the carbon than would be steel.  And, like you, we chose value rather than the big name.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on May 31, 2011, 12:02:04 pm
The biggest improvement I can make in the weight of my ride is for the rider to lose 20 lbs!!!!   8)  Looking at it that way, it would be the equivalent of shrinking my bike's weight to about 6 lbs   ;D ;D

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on May 31, 2011, 01:18:14 pm
I would include titanium in your road bike project possibilities.  Lynn has an older GT titanium bike and I'm pretty sure it is similar to carbon in dampness -- but isn't currently "in vogue" so older LiteSpeeds are arouind.
She sold Doug's first racing bike, which was a Litespeed with Campagnola Record  components for about $600 through the local bikeshop.  (a side benefit, unless the thief is really knowledgeable, titanium doesn't distinguish itself as a target the way carbon does).


Fall didn't require a doctor's visit, but left side of rib cage is quite tender.

Quite right! I had forgotten about Ti bike frames.  Terryl's Dad has or had one -- amazingly light, strong, great ride, and not harsh.  You're right, much more damp than aluminum.  That material seems to be off the radar, and not sexy at the moment.  Price? Last time I looked at Ti mtn. bikes, a hard tail frame alone was north of $2000. 

As for a daily driver for the road, not sure I will go there this year.  Just had a long chat with the mechanic at our LBS, and we priced out what it would cost to rebuild the old steel frame race bike sitting in our garage to make it ride-able and have decent performance in our area (lots of hills), and it doesn't seem feasible.  Would cost the same or less to buy a new bike.  Even less to buy a decent used one.  Considering what we've spent on bikes and ski gear in recent years, that just doesn't seem sensible at the moment.....   :(

Glad you didn't hurt yourself yesterday.  Hope the fun-factor of the ride was worth the spill. 

Re. weight of bikes, you and Max are right on -- I am less concerned with a pound or three of bike weight, than I am of good geometry, decent components, and proper fit.  My 29er weighs as much as my old steel frame 26er, with it's big front shocks, bigger tires and all, but rides SOOO much better....effortles s pedaling.  We are in this for exercise, and having a great reason to get out in the woods and open hills to get some fresh air, clear the mind, and have some fun doing it.  I will never race, have no ego wrapped up in this sport (or any other), and have nothing to prove to anyone except to myself.

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: midwif on May 31, 2011, 01:26:20 pm
Have to ask:  were you hurt in yesterday's fall? All parts intact? Bruised ego, though, eh?

So glad you and Lynn are having so much fun on your bikes.  It really is a blast.  I can see why skiers gravitate (another bad pun...yikes  :D) to this sport as their summertime adrenaline fix.  Tearing down a hard packed trail through the woods at Mach 2 on a crisp cold fall morning.....awesome!

Jim is ever the master of understatement.
"...my ribs are quite tender".

Quite a nasty fall. Hit a rock and tree on the way down.
Given the muscle spasming he felt between intercostals, I am guessing a minor crack of  one of his ribs. Nice hip bruise to go along with it and his shoulder quite sore.

We both fall at times. Getting better at reading the terrain. And we have taken on some ambitious rides for newbies. Looking forward to straight forward riding up steep hills this coming weekend as opposed to narrow, curlicue type terrain with rocks and roots to navigate.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on May 31, 2011, 01:49:42 pm
Jim, Jim, Jim....what will we do with you? Kevlar body armour? All chiding aside, you gotta be careful, dude.  I guess getting the ribs checked out is not in your plan for today? Hope it's nothing serious.

Lynn -- good on you guys for having such guts to take on the gnarly stuff, and you being so new to the sport.  Brilliant!  I must say that Terryl and I are much more cautious -- Terryl because of her knee injury, doesn't want a repeat in the middle of the woods with no safety patrol cuties with sleds and blankets to whisk her to the first aid shack  ;D ; and me, well, if I get seriously hurt, being self-employed, that would put our family in deep Doo-Doo.  Not smart if I start barreling down steep rocky single track and bust myself up.  If I can't travel, my business is toast.

Still, we have a hoot out on our bikes, and have a whole big playground right out the back door to roll through.  Hundreds of kilometers of trails here, just minutes from our house.  Sweet!

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on May 31, 2011, 03:10:35 pm
 Bottom line is exactly what you said. It's all relative, but Lynn and I are having a blast, and that's all that matters. Saturday's ride was one of the easier in the area, but scenic. Monday's ride was one of the harder we have ridden.

I had ridden this trail one time before and was quite proud.
Remembering that, daydreaming and not paying close enough attention.  :'(   And riding faster so I had more momentum. 
And overconfident because I had climbed one of the other sections that had thwarted me before and had been doing so well in some pretty tight twisty sections and other places.  Ohhh, well.  What doesn't kill you makes you smarter and more respectful (and encourages you to breathe and walk gingerly) ???

As Lynn said, "That was interesting to see how well we did, but I wouldn't want to ride this all the time.  Wider trails and country roads definitely have their place."

But gnarly is relative. I watched some of BW's videos, and riding on tree trunks to cross gullies isn't something that I would even consider.


Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 01, 2011, 05:43:27 am
Quote
What doesn't kill you makes you smarter.....
  If that is true, then by the end of the summer your IQ should be through the roof   :o  Just when you thought you couldn't get any smarter, along comes a nasty, dirty old tree root, and Hey! Presto! you're in Mensa!  8)

Just curious.....what do you think contributed to the fall? Could you have set up your bike to help prevent this sort of thing? Tire pressure OK? Shock rebound OK? Or was it just that angle at which you struck the root, kicked the wheel out from under you?

BW is correct, in that tire pressure is a big deal in how a bike behaves on the trail.  Running lower pressure really helps the tread stick to things like roots and rocks.  I put about 25 to 30 psi when going off road; and about 35 to 40 when on smooth flat gravel such as rail trails. 

Anyway, take it easy out there my friend...

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 01, 2011, 07:45:39 am

I think it was mostly inattentiveness.  For the first time, I was really getting comfortable working both edges of the 3-5 foot wide trail picking my way through exposed rocks (or at least the sharper ones), exposed sapling stumps, and hitting the roots at a good angle or edging around them.

I don't remember having a visualization of how I wanted to ride through this section -  so too passive and just sitting on the bike instead of riding it?
It's was only about a 10 foot stretch with a tree on the left, a mud-hole on the right, and a spiderweb of 2"-4" exposed roots spreading away from the tree.  I didn't feel bounced around, so the shock settings seemed right (very Buick like  :D ). In retrospect, I was also riding it too fast and my forward momentum was a significant part of the fall, but the forward-diagonal direction of the fall makes me believe the front wheel got pushed sideways.

I am still in the process of gradually working my tire pressures down to see if I can feel any differences, finding a balance between what I can use on asphalt and off.  The tire sidewall says 35-80 for minimum and maximum pressure, and I'm hesitant to get too close to that minimum figure, assuming that the higher recommendations reflect the  lightweight nature of the tire.

Another question.  Lynn weighs less than 120, I weigh 180+.  Do you adjust Terryl's pressures differently than yours to allow for the difference in weight?


Quote from: jim-ratliff
AHA, that was the last hard fall. I was skiing at Powder Mountain in Utah when someone lost their snowboard.  Just as I was turning left the snowboard went under my skis, my feet went right, and the rest of me went down. EXTREMELY glad I had a helmet on that day.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 01, 2011, 08:46:42 am

I am still in the process of gradually working my tire pressures down to see if I can feel any differences, finding a balance between what I can use on asphalt and off.  The tire sidewall says 35-80 for minimum and maximum pressure, and I'm hesitant to get too close to that minimum figure, assuming that the higher recommendations reflect the  lightweight nature of the tire.

Another question.  Lynn weighs less than 120, I weigh 180+.  Do you adjust Terryl's pressures differently than yours to allow for the difference in weight?


Yeah, you have to be careful not to go too low, otherwise you'll start to get pinch-flats.  That problem plagued me a few years ago -- I would get a flat almost every ride, and it took me weeks to figure out what was going on.  Finally found that the sidewalls on the tires were very thin and could not support a lower pressure....swapped the tires for better ones with thicker sidewalls....proble m solved. 

As for different pressures on my bike vs. Terryl's, no, I have not played with that.  But I have considered it.  Kinda tough to generalize on this one, as a lot depends on the model of tire and it's strength/robustness.   Certainly would be worth experimenting.  I'll get back to you.....we are riding later today, so I may try that.

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 01, 2011, 09:51:35 am
BTW, I don't think you have to worry that running at 35 psi is too low-- to a road rider, that must seem very low, but for a mtn. bike it's perfectly OK.  If my tire gauge is accurate, then we run about 35 to 40 psi for rides on our hard pack gravel rail trail, and that is plenty firm.  Doing the thumb press test doesn't give much deflection -- it's pretty hard.   No worries about pinch flats at that pressure.

I drop it to 25 to 30 psi for rides in the woods, so I guess our present tires must have reasonably strong sidewalls, as we have not had pinch flats at these pressures.  Having said that, our trails are not too gnarly -- no sharp rocks; just roots, some loose gravel and sand, but mostly hard clay.  I could imagine that hitting a sharp rock at high speed on a tubed tire at 25 psi might cause a problem, but we've never encountered that.

As an aside, that is why we don't need full suspension bikes here -- if we lived elsewhere where the terrain was rougher, we almost certainly would have rear suspension.  But in our area, it's just not needed.  The quickness and acceleration that we get out of a nice, light XC hard tail is just a blast, and there's nothing that a skilled rider can't handle here.



Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 01, 2011, 09:58:26 am
BTW, I don't think you have to worry that running at 35 psi is too low-- to a road rider, that must seem very low, but for a mtn. bike it's perfectly OK.

The quickness and acceleration that we get out of a nice, light XC hard tail is just a blast, and there's nothing that a skilled rider can't handle here.

My worry is actually getting the pressure low enough that a 15 mile ride becomes a lot more "exercise" than I wanted.  :o .   Especially if the last 3-5 is returning on asphalt.

And I think the idea of experimenting with weight related tire pressures and giving Terryl pinch flats might be problematic;  especially if she has to fix it.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 01, 2011, 10:20:58 am
Hmmm....I see.....  Are the first 3 - 5 also on tarmac?  Do you carry a small tire pump? Seems the only thing to do is let some air out when you hit the woods, then pause for a break when you reach the asphalt again and pump 'em back up.  I have a pretty good little pump made by Topeak, and just a few puffs is all it takes to get the tires nice and firm.  Like the pit crew at a NASCAR race, I can get the tires prepped speedy-quick.

So, sorry to say, but the only thing to do is find a quiet shady spot by a stream, fortify yourself with a glass of chilled chardonnay from your picnic hamper, dip your toes in the water, sniff the flowers, and then pump away like a crazy man.   :D

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 01, 2011, 12:29:06 pm
Hmmm....I see.....  Are the first 3 - 5 also on tarmac?  Do you carry a small tire pump? Seems the only thing to do is let some air out when you hit the woods, then pause for a break when you reach the asphalt again and pump 'em back up.  I have a pretty good little pump made by Topeak, and just a few puffs is all it takes to get the tires nice and firm.  Like the pit crew at a NASCAR race, I can get the tires prepped speedy-quick.



So, if I call you how long before you are track side, Mr. Pit Crew??  8)
Actually, we have the CO2 cannisters that you puncture as our emergency "air".  Fits under the saddle, never had to use them yet.  I expect that we will find a range of pressures that work with different types of rides and with the Karma tires.
This last ride was very little asphalt, so 40 (or less) would have been a good selection.
One of the other rides was 5 miles back road asphalt, 7 miles packed jeep trail gravel, and then 5-6 miles on asphalt back to the car, and that's probably still a 50-60 psi ride (for me, maybe less for Lynn).


All this discussion has me curious.  I need to go back over and take a picture of the tree root obstacle course.

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 01, 2011, 01:58:17 pm
9 hours minimum response time for trailside assistance.  Longer if US Customs is slow at the border.  Best carry a tent and emergency rations with you.... ::)

Just a suggestion......You might take a look at some of the mini pumps that are available, as a more versatile option over the CO2 fillers, at least for one of your bikes.  It's amazing how good they are, and how little they weigh.  Most cost about $20.  Mine is maybe 3 or 4 oz., approx. 7" - 8" long, clips to the downtube under the bottle cage, and can get the tires rock hard in no time.  Topeak brand, but not sure which model.  I've had it for at least 5 years.  Terryl has one about half that size that fits in her saddle pouch, weighs about 3 oz.  It's never been used, and there for emergency only.  Hint:  if you get one that clips to the frame, make sure it has a dust cap over the nozzle, otherwise it will fill with grit.

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 01, 2011, 07:50:07 pm
Svend:
 
Not very clear pictures, but the first is the root that tripped me up looking back in the direction from whence I came. Three days of 90+ degree temps have dried up what was a mud-hole opposite the tree trunk, so now people can just ride around the roots. 
 
 

[attachment removed after 60 days]
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 02, 2011, 07:57:39 am
Slippery when wet  :D

Nice looking trail, though.  Very lush and green.  Must be a nice tonic after a stressful day as Gandalf    8)

Seriously, you should look at using lower tire pressures.  If you hit a root like that, wet, on an angle, with rock-hard tires, I could see why the tire would just deflect right off and not grab.  That, and as you said, slow it down a bit, hit the root more square, yank up on the bars just as you hit, and you're good.  Even a Buick can't absorb all impacts   ;D  (duck!!!)

That's tricky stuff, though, if it's wet.  A web of roots like that is like riding on ice, it can be so slippery.  We used to have Panaracer Smoke and Dart tires on our old bikes, which had aggressive tread blocks and were pretty good at going over stuff like that in the wet.  Not sure if the present tires would be that good -- the tread patterns don't give me much confidence for those conditions....great when it's dry, but we haven't really tested them fully in the wet.  Somehow, I don't think they would measure up.....
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 02, 2011, 08:39:08 am

In the flood plain of a local creek, so very swampy.  Almost looks tropical, at least in this section.


I also think I tried to take a line too close to the tree.
Should have gone to the other side (closer to the mud puddle) and then cut back across the trail taking the roots more head on.


I think I had tires at 45 (which I felt was on the low end of the 35-80 range) and down from my normal 55 but still higher than everyone recommends.  Point well taken.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 02, 2011, 10:00:15 am
Just for the heck of it, try 'em at 30psi.  Do the thumb squeeze test.  You should be able to push it in just a wee bit, say 1/8" to 1/4" deflection, but they should still be nice and firm.  I doubt you would get a pinch flat at that pressure, unless your sidewalls are REALLY thin.  I assume you carry a spare tube and tire irons?  ;) 

Just want to reassure you on this tire pressure thing, as I'm sensing you're a bit reluctant to go lower than at present.  I put all our bikes at 25 to 30 psi for trail use (35 to 40 for hard pack rail trails).  The only time any of us  have ever had pinch flats was with a cheap, thin-walled tire (I think it was Panaracer Smoke -- great tread pattern, but flimsy construction) that I had at about 25 psi or so.  Too low for that tire.  Otherwise, it has never happened with any other tire, and that over a cumulative total of at least 10 years of riding.  I'm sure your Karmas will be fine -- that's a quality tire.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 02, 2011, 11:35:46 am

A bit cautious, yes.  But I'll get there, wherever there might be.

A combination of the mfg 35-80 range recommendations on the sidewall indicating that the tire is designed for relatively higher pressures, and your comment about getting pinch flats at one point and deciding to go to a heavier and sturdier sidewall in order to run lower pressures. 

I also found myself wondering what would happen if I hit one of the many 2" saplings that were cut down to clear the trails (leaving about 4" of stump) and would the tires have enough structural integrity to absorb such an impact.  And also thinking that, if the sidewall is "lighter weight" then I may get equivalent suppleness of the tread and the sidewall at a different target pressure than you feel with a stiffer sidewall tire.

Thanks for all the help and information. And I do think that this last trail is at the challenging end of what Lynn and I are likely to ride.  We didn't quite know what we were taking on before the ride, but did handle it better than we expected.


Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 02, 2011, 01:54:39 pm

......your comment about getting pinch flats at one point and deciding to go to a heavier and sturdier sidewall in order to run lower pressures. 


OK, I give in......I just scanned a few online reviews and rider comments on the Karma, and lots of guys are commenting on the thin sidewalls and frequent pinch flats on these tires.  Methinks your instinct was correct, sir.  Probably not good to run less than 35 psi.  Other comments:  stay away from wet roots! (no joke!)  And no sharp rocks (thin sidewalls).  On the plus side, they all seem to love the light weight, low rolling resistance, and great grip on dry hardpack.  Seems like a great summer tire for dry trails.

Just google for reviews.....lots to read.....

Cheers!

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 02, 2011, 04:28:25 pm
And lets not forget that Lynn rode that same section right ahead of me with no problems - same tire. We need to remember that possibly the problem wasn't the bike or the tires.
Pretty sure the next tire wiil be a Small Block 8 or a Slant 6, but I really don't have any complaints with current tires. They really roll well on hard surfaces and haven't disappointed anywhere else.

Sadly, I never even thought of checking out the tire reviews online. Thank you sir Viking.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: midwif on June 02, 2011, 08:53:01 pm
Someone went out and bought some new tires tonight
My lady bike has a new rear tire.

And I think Jim's does as well.

Wonder who's responsible for that???

The Viking or the bushwacker? ;)
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 02, 2011, 10:33:02 pm
Guilty, Your Honor!!  And it was Svend.

Kenda Small Block 8



Quote from: jim-ratliff
Svend:  No reason for guilt. You and I had talked some time ago about the SB8 and I had settled on that as the replacement tire.  Performance had them on sale and I had a coupon for another 15% off, so I bought two for our rear wheels.  2.1 vs 2.0 so a bit wider, minimum air pressure is 30 instead of 35, only 100 grams heavier, and they appear to be rounder and may have a narrower contact patch on the asphalt. Good recommendation, from what I can see.
And now we each have a backup tire.


Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 03, 2011, 07:03:24 am
Hey! Nice!  Not that I wanted you to abandon the Karmas.....sheesh.. ...now I feel kinda awkward.  Destroyer of faith in one's tires.  Shameful!

But, great tires -- lots of guys here have the SB8, and they love them.  Alex has them on her old GT, and I test rode it last night (after doing some rebuilding on the bike) and those tires are sure smooth on the tarmac.  They seem very fast. 

Their grip is supposed to be stellar, and with all the small nubs, I'm sure they will grip the roots and rocks just fine.  I will probably put these, or the Slant Six, on my 29er when the present tires wear out.  Actually, the Bontrager tires on my bike now are similar to the Slant Six, and I like them.

My lady bike has a new rear tire.
  Lady bike?! Yeah, right Lynn.  Complete with girl's top tube so you can get yer skirts and bustles over the bars without wrinkling the taffeta, eh? Or is it gingham you prefer?  ;D  (duck!!!)

Gandalf, we seriously need an animated smiley for ducking a flying rock....
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 03, 2011, 08:13:46 am
Svend:  No reason for guilt. We had talked some time ago about the SB8 and I had settled on that as the replacement tire.  Performance had them on sale and I had a coupon for another 15% off, so I bought two for our rear wheels.  2.1 vs 2.0 so a bit wider, minimum air pressure is 30 instead of 35, only 100 grams heavier, and they appear to be rounder and may have a narrower contact patch on the asphalt. Good recommendation, from what I can see.
And now we each have a backup tire.
Great choice, and I think money well spent.  It will probably give you better control, grip, less rolling resistance on asphalt, and allow a lower pressure when it gets bumpy.  Yeah, and by all means keep the Karmas -- they might work better in spring or fall when things get muddy again.  Now I'm curious to hear how you like the SB8s on the trails.  Let me know....

Did you buy a mini pump too?
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 03, 2011, 08:38:49 am
No pump yet.  They didn't have it, and nothing they did have excited me.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: bushwacka on June 07, 2011, 06:13:12 pm
Hi All....sorry....qui te late joining this chat.  Been on the road again.


BW -- good advice on tubeless.  Might just try that, as my rims and tires are "tubeless ready".  But, what happens if I'm in the middle of the woods, 20km away from my truck, and a tire goes flat? How the heck do I fix it without invoking a one-hour procedure? At least with tubes, I carry a spare and some irons, and can swap a tube in 10 to 15 minutes.  Otherwise, tubeless is certainly appealing -- if nothing else, at least for the weight savings -- 29ers are a tad heavier. 


I still carry a tube on ride that can strand me but have only used it one race out of all my rides race since I have gone tubeless. Quite simply you take the valve stem out throw the right size tube in and your off. I dont know why people dont realize you cant just put a tube into your tire. BTW you do not need anything tubeless to go tubeless. I do it with non tubeless tires, on non tubeless rims sealing it up with a schrader valved tubed cut length wise.

how to do it with out tubeless anything.
http://www.porcmtbclub.org/phpBB3/fix-f7/topic2321.html



The most appealing thing about tubeless isnt the weight saving which it can have but the ability to run lower pressure that not only roll fast, handle turns better, stop and go easy but also ride more plush.

you do need to get way back when decending step sections

(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v4918/6/97/505253356/n505253356_1818148_5972305.jpg)

A couple of further comments:

On tire width -- I agree with BW, except that before you go wider, you need to check out the weight of the new tire compared to what you're replacing.  Depending on the tire, there can be anywhere from 100g to 200g + difference (1/4 to 1/2 lb!) between, say a 2.00 tire and a 2.20 (check out the specs on the Kenda Karma to see for yourself).  If you're trying to keep the weight of the bike to a minimum, then adding a half-pound to each wheel can really make a difference to acceleration, energy input, etc.  On short, technical rides this is probably fine, and the benefits of a wider tire would far outweigh (pardon the pun) the drawbacks.  OTOH, over a long cross-country ride, that extra weight will really make itself apparent in the last hour of the ride.  Even more so if you are doing multi-day rides back-to-back.  By Day 3 you will wish you had lighter tires -- I learned this two years ago when I rode with my Father-in-law on Vancouver Island -- three days of open-trail XC riding, 3 hours per day, with all-mountain tires that weighed about 800g+ each (~1.5 lbs).  After Day 2 I was ready to go straight to the nearest shop and put on some Kenda Small Block Eights.  Bottom line -- pick the tires that suit where you ride, and for how long.  Maybe keep two sets and swap em as needed:  one for long XC rides / smoother terrain; and one for more rugged terrain / shorter rides.


believe it or not it comes down to wattage, sometime carryng slightly more weight for wider tire can mean your expending less energy because wider tires do roll fast when run at the proper pressure.

Max - FS is actually more efficient even when climbing if its done correctly. There are alot of races held that are won by FS bikes.  I currently dont own a FS bike but love them for everything from XC racing, to all mountain freeride sort of stuff.

Jim - I would run tubeless, then disregard the min pressure recommendation. The min pressure on both of my tire is 30 psi and I run them much lower. Lower pressure goes faster well at least off road, judging by your picture I would have trouble riding fast over those roots at the pressures you run.

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 08, 2011, 10:19:52 am
I still carry a tube on ride that can strand me but have only used it one race out of all my rides race since I have gone tubeless. Quite simply you take the valve stem out throw the right size tube in and your off. I dont know why people dont realize you cant just put a tube into your tire. BTW you do not need anything tubeless to go tubeless. I do it with non tubeless tires, on non tubeless rims sealing it up with a schrader valved tubed cut length wise.

how to do it with out tubeless anything.
http://www.porcmtbclub.org/phpBB3/fix-f7/topic2321.html


The most appealing thing about tubeless isnt the weight saving which it can have but the ability to run lower pressure that not only roll fast, handle turns better, stop and go easy but also ride more plush.

Cool! Thanks for the advice on that.  This is new territory for me, but will definitely look into that.  My LBS sells kits for going tubeless, and the mechanic is a great guy, in his sixties, who will chat for hours if I let him.  He'll sort me out  8)

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 08, 2011, 12:55:38 pm

BW:

I have to admit, I'm a sucker for "creative" ways of doing stuff, and your "ghetto" tubeless certainly qualifies.  The pictures didn't show up in the link for me, but I get the idea.
The clincher part of the bead isn't clinching on the wheel anymore, it's just sort of a pressure fitting because of the cut BMX tube wrapped around the wheel (sort of like a full width rim strip)?
 
Obviously that hasn't caused any problems for you?
 
Do you normally use wire beaded tires or folded (kevlar beaded) and do you think it makes any difference as far as the tire stretching enough to come off the wheel?  Do you ever run higher pressures with this?


Svend: One of the big advantages of BW's approach is that you don't have a "tubeless" tire valve to remove in order to insert the tube.  Both are just Schrader tube fittings - the tubeless combo is a bit of bubble gum and bailing wire -- but I grew up in Kansas farm country and have a deep appreciation for all that can be accomplished with some bailing wire.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: bushwacka on June 08, 2011, 08:50:50 pm

BW:

I have to admit, I'm a sucker for "creative" ways of doing stuff, and your "ghetto" tubeless certainly qualifies.  The pictures didn't show up in the link for me, but I get the idea.
The clincher part of the bead isn't clinching on the wheel anymore, it's just sort of a pressure fitting because of the cut BMX tube wrapped around the wheel (sort of like a full width rim strip)?
 
Obviously that hasn't caused any problems for you?
 
Do you normally use wire beaded tires or folded (kevlar beaded) and do you think it makes any difference as far as the tire stretching enough to come off the wheel?  Do you ever run higher pressures with this?


Svend: One of the big advantages of BW's approach is that you don't have a "tubeless" tire valve to remove in order to insert the tube.  Both are just Schrader tube fittings - the tubeless combo is a bit of bubble gum and bailing wire -- but I grew up in Kansas farm country and have a deep appreciation for all that can be accomplished with some bailing wire.

In all honesty IMO this way works better than the Stans kits way because its seals up non tubeless tires better.  It doesnt work better than actually tubeless rim which while spendy are a ton better for doing this and you dont have to do it the ghetto way. i have literally 1000s of miles on this setup on various rim/tire combination on trails all over the country. The failures have been few and far between and when it fails I just put a tube in it. On shorter rides where I cant get stranded in the wilderness I dont carry tubes with me anymore as my chances of flatting on nearly zero.

It doesnt matter about the wire vs folding just be very careful of using ultra lightweight XC tires, because some of them  just do not  work. For instance the standard Small Block 8 can be a bear to seal up  but the tubeless version of it works just fine. 

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/95039/how-to-do-ghetto-tubeless-for-finndog-and-anyone-else-who-wants-cheap-tubeless-tires

those picture work in that thread.

I use schrader valve because it easier to seat the bead with schrader valve and it also means that any old gas station pump will work to seat the bead with out an adapter. If you use 'tubeless" tires you will most likely be able to seat the bead with a floor pump. Presta valve do work and I have the same set up on my Single Speed cross bike and my road bike with prestaa tubes albeit running a tubeless hutchison bull dog cross tire.  I did not want to drill out my skinny cross/road rims.

as for tube size here is my list

26 inch rim = 20 BMX tube
650B = 24 inch MTB tube
29er = 26 inch MTB
36er(yes they do exist) = 29 MTB



editted to add this

you can not run higher pressure with tubeless. 35 psi is the max I go with non tubeless tires because of the risk of destroying the bead of the tire and also blowing it off the rim, You can run higher with tubeless tire....but the point of going tubeless is to run a lower pressure with out a risk of flatting.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 08, 2011, 10:05:24 pm
Josh:

Thanks - got it.

BTW, did my first little ride on roots and rocks with 'only' 30 lbs pressure front and back. Could feel the difference. Even bought a pressure gauge for presta tires.

Even at 30 my sidewalls were barely soft. I'm learning, but moving slowly.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: bushwacka on June 09, 2011, 06:51:41 am
yeah and a tubeless tire will be more supple at 30 psi.

The deal with running a tire with a tube in at a lower psi is it can pulled off the rim easier in turn because the bead is not as lock on it would be if it were tubeless.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 09, 2011, 07:01:27 am
Josh, just curious -- have you played with pressures in 29er tires, with tubes? I run about 35 to 40 for hard packed flat gravel rail trails, and 25 to 30 for in the woods.  Terrain of latter is mostly hard clay, some rocks, roots, ruts, occasional sand and loose coarse gravel.  Pressures seem fine for both types riding.  But interested to know what your experience has been on that... Thanks.

Another question:  what bar width do you find optimal for a 29er? I have a low rise, about 685 wide, but was thinking of swapping for a flat bar, either same width or a bit narrower.  Want to improve handling, and extend my reach just a wee bit.  I'm thinking narrower may not be better....correct?

Cheers....
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: midwif on June 09, 2011, 09:29:06 am
Quote from: bushwacka

The most appealing thing about tubeless isn't the weight saving which it can have but the ability to run lower pressure that not only roll fast, handle turns better, stop and go easy but also ride more plush.

you do need to get way back when decending step sections

(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v4918/6/97/505253356/n505253356_1818148_5972305.jpg)



Ye Gads!!
Ain't doing that kind of riding in the near future. Probably never!!
Looks awesome young Bushwacka. 
Lynn
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: bushwacka on June 09, 2011, 09:45:17 am
I dont run tubes ever. On my own personal bike I put a hole into a tire during a long race, put my tube in it and flatted the tube with in a couple miles at 30 psi.

last weekend I demoed a anthem X 29er and the tubes tires on were a pain in the ass. Giant had them inflated to 38 psi which rode like ****. It was rough, had no grip, and rolled so slow because it was boucing off everything. I lowered the pressure to 28 psi. It rode better in a straightline but the tire rolled off the rim, and I pinched flatted the rear tire in rock garden at high speeds.

For me I simply can not ride the way I want to on tubed tire. I either have to run a high pressure and suffer though lack of performance, or run a low pressure and for sure flat it.

There is nothing better about a tubed tire.

bars and stem are personal thing. It has nothing to do with what size your wheels are.  it does have to do with your trails, what your use to, what your willing to get use to, your bike size elect elect.  I personal hate being in a really long position.  I use a 70 mm stem with a very swept back flat 740mm bar.  I also use ergon's and bar ends.

Improving handling? what do you need improved?

extending reach? why do you want your reach extended?

a slightly wider bar let you leverage in turns and tech areas better, also on Single speed it let me leverage on climbs better.  You have to use a shorter stem though because your reach effectively gets longer as your bars get wider.

(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/247504_2095903401229_1354674216_32511457_3299254_n.jpg)

the bar ends let me get far forward while climbing while still letting me run my short stem, they are also quite handy on 40-50 + miles rides to keep my hands from getting fatigue on road sections.

(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/66012_1589710977658_1082345637_1618938_6684408_n.jpg)

the shorter stem lets me loft the front end alot easier and make it easier to ride trails aggressively. Alot of XC guys are now shorting their stems quite a bit even on the World Cup, but I think long stems anything 100mm and over are passe' and actually hold people back when riding singletrack.   

again using what I use on my bike might not work for you. It could work for you and feel pretty awkward at first. You could extend your width a little bit and that should improve your handling and your lenghten your reach. you would be hard press to see a narrow long set up at any XC race these days. People just didnt know any better back in the day, and the kids these days like comfort and performance. 

Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: jim-ratliff on June 09, 2011, 11:17:13 am



BTW, I bought the Ergon grips for Lynn and I -- I agree with BW, they are wonderful.
Title: Re: Mtn bike advice
Post by: Svend on June 09, 2011, 11:47:50 am
Interesting that a wider bar may actually give more agility.  I had a hunch that narrower would not be better -- thanks for confirming that.  Actually just read a mtn. bike blog from the UK, from someone who rides the same 29er bike as I do, and he was commenting on the great improvement in handling by going to a wider flat bar.....710mm, I think.  Confirmed....twice.  Time to visit the LBS  8)

As for reach, I like the idea of bar ends.  I really only wanted a touch longer reach on the flat gravel rail trail, which is about a 10km ride until I get to the trails in the woods. 

Agreed....Ergo grips are great -- I don't have them yet, but Terryl does on her bike and loves them.

Update on the SPD multi-release cleats (Shimano SM-SH56) on Terryl's shoes:  after 3 rides, the verdict is all good so far.  Release of the injured leg (no ACL) is FAR better than with the standard cleats -- much easier to twist out in all directions.  No verdict on a panic bail as yet, so don't know if that is going to work better.....will let you know....