realskiers

Skis and Gear Discussion => Member Ski Reviews => Reviews older than Past 2 Season => Topic started by: jbotti on August 27, 2010, 07:48:00 am


Title: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on August 27, 2010, 07:48:00 am
I saw Peter Keelty's Review of this ski and I was modestly intrigued. I went to the company's website and I got a lot more intrigued. It is very difficult to find wide skis with tight turn radii. There are a lot of reasons for this but for a skier that wants to put the ski on edge as much as possible, having a tight turn radius helps a ton. It definitley is a more of a PMTS thing, but that is how I ski. These skis are 101mm underfoot and have a 15m turn radius even in the 188 length. I sent the owner an email and this is what I know about the skis, it's a race laminate sandwich construction ski which uses both carbon fiber and fiberglass. This means it will have a lighter feel. It's a twn tip and the 188 length appears to ski pretty short. Dims are 150-101-134 in the 188 and it weighs 4600g. Skis have traditional camber and no rocker. Demos are readily available in the Summit County area.

This is the ski I have been looking for at least as far as dimensions. I know nothing else about this company or these skis, other than that Peter gives it an excellent review. I'm not sure what I will do. If anyone skis on a pair of these please post comments (or if anyone knows anything more about skilogik or these skis). I may demo a pair when I go to Col in November.

http://www.skilogik.com/Ullr'sChariot.html
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Liam on August 27, 2010, 09:34:43 am
Jbotti,


I have nothing to add to this-but wanted to say I went through the same process as you (from peter's review--especially with the listed turn radius-, to the website, to exoticski review, to emailing the owner).

It's the first over 100mm waist ski I've seen get those kind of reviews on peter's website.   I'd love to here more bout this ski.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on August 28, 2010, 12:35:09 am
Well, I have a somewhat **** and musty crystal ball, but I PREDICT some new ski purchases on this board soon.
Both up front and behind the forum, the crackling rustle of "new ski desire" is building.

Jim wants this ski. Wants it bad. >:D
Already talking about selling the Watea's.

I think he's been hanging around with Ron too much. ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on August 28, 2010, 09:25:10 am
It sure looks like a very functioning crystal ball to me even if it is ****. I was close a few times yesterday to just buying them. I know I can demo them the first week of November when I am in Colorado so it probably makes sense to wait til then. I will tell you that the running lengths of these skis are short. The 188's are 156cm and the 178's it's 146cm. These will ski quite short. Having said that the closest thing anyone has made to a fatter ski with a tight turn radius are the Shaman's. But in the 184 length they are still a 18m TR (the 173's are 15m which is quite tight). Most that have skied the Shamans just love them sso it's clear that a tighter TR can work well in a wide ski. These also take a page from the Shamans with 150mm tip (vs 160mm on the Shamans).

All in all it looks like a super ski. Obvious;y if I get on a pair and or own one, I will come back with a review and comments. I know that in Nov at Lovelenad I iwll be skiiing mostly man made snow on groomers, but that might be a nice test for these and their versatility. I will assume in advance with very wide tips and 101 under foot that they ski pow quite well.

Yes, it won't be long now. Got my first issue of Powder Mag in the mail on Thursday. WE are really only a couple of months away!! I have two more bike races and I am done for the season!! Nice!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 28, 2010, 08:02:35 pm
jbotti:

Just a heads-up that, for $50 extra, they will personalize the top sheet with your name.
I'm also very impressed with corporate culture and the commitment to their people.

Why do you say the skis ski short? They aren't twin tips or rockered??
And the lady with the crystal ball is very right, I am VERY intrigued.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on August 28, 2010, 11:27:23 pm
I am pretty sure they are twin tips. This is how my question went to the owner via e-mail:

JB: It looks like a twin tip, can you give me the running length on both the 188 and the 178 (point of contact near tip to point of contact near the tail)

Dave at SL: UC 178 effective edge length: 1460 mm
UC 188 effective edge length: 1560 mm

If you look at the picture of these on their website they look like twin tips. There is no flat tail, it's rounded and the front and back look almost identical. I feel pretty confident from this and from his response (where he did not say that I was wrong with my assumption) that these are twin tips. But I have been wrong before.

Nice to know about the ability to have my name added. I will only do that if I demo them first. It has to be harder to sell skis with your name on them!!

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Philpug on August 29, 2010, 08:33:09 am
I saw these in Denver last year and they are beautiful skis. I was > < close to coming home with a pair. Makes me almost think now that I should have.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 29, 2010, 09:12:03 am
I am pretty sure they are twin tips. This is how my question went to the owner via e-mail:

Nice to know about the ability to have my name added. I will only do that if I demo them first. It has to be harder to sell skis with your name on them!!
thanks.? Yes, harder to sell, but I was thinking that it would also make them harder to steal, and they look distinctive enough (and wide enough) to be a target.  Different look, but I might want to keep them around even after they get replaced as Ron has done does his Shamans' (which are lovely skis).? BTW, I also got the impression that you could get any of their top-sheet patterns on any of the skis as part of tht $50 customization charge (I can't imagine that this option will last long if they get any kind of volume.)
Maybe we should develop the RealSkiers custom topsheet.

Summary.  apparently amazing 1-ski quiver for Western skiing, 100mm waist width Ron had been saying I should try, helps me keep up with Lynn on her 84mm waisted skis, appearance has really hooked me, and given equal skis I would rather support some guy in his dream than send the same dollars to a corporation.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on August 29, 2010, 02:46:16 pm
Wow you guys are making it hard to wait til November to demo these!! He did say in his e-mail that he currently has 188's in stock, waiting with my name on them (only figurativley, but for $50 literally!!).
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 29, 2010, 11:42:21 pm
Just to add a bit more fuel to the building inferno.? The following is from Peter responding to my request to compare the Watea 84 and Ullr's Chariot.? John, remember that Peter and I are both one size shorter than you are.? Sounds like he plans to put some of his money on a new pair.  For sale!  1 pair of Watea 84's.   ;D

The Chariot is definitely more versatile overall. In fact, and I'm going from memory here--I skied them for a day last April--I would go as far as to suggest they out carve the 84 except on actual New England ice. We skied on a day at Solitude in which we encountered everything possible, from frozen morning crust to late afternoon almost-slush with nary a balk or problem.

FWIW, my plan is to make the Chariot the "other" ski to complement my 4X4's.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on August 30, 2010, 08:12:23 am
Thanks Jim, I enjoy spending money on skis and you and everyone else is making it oh so easy.
I will also tell you why I like the 188 better than the 178. Usually when you go up in length by 10cms you usually get a corresponding uptick in TR. Usually when you have a 15m TR ski in a 178 the 188 will be 17m. Dave has done something really nice with the Chraiot in that he increased the tip size on the longer ski, creating more sidecut and hence keeping the TR at 15. I also think in 3d snow (powder) the wider tip will also float a little better. If I was going to use this ski as a wide "daily driver" I might consider it in the 178m (although knowing the running length it is even short for that). However for me, if there isn't a good amount of fresh snow, I own so many other skis that I would rather be on so I know I will only pull this out when i's fresh and soft.

My guess is that I will be on 3-4 skis this year mostly. The new Head SS's with KERS on groomer days. Head IM 78's skiing off piste without fresh snow, the chariot for fresh snow, and the Head ICON TT 80's for bumps (really a great bump ski).? I will also say that I do love my K2 Hardside skis for pow as well and I will have to do the side by side comparison against the Chariot. The chariot has one big advantage, that tight turn radius means that you can use the sidecut more, pivot less and actaully work a lot less in the pow. Should be a nice leg saver. Can't wait to try them (haven't bought them yet either).

I sold a lot of skis last year which was pretty much my first time doing that ever (I learned alot watching Ron!!). I ended up with a $2400 balance at Paypal. I feel like I am fully loaded with ammo for the upcoming ski buying season. I also don't want to buy a zillion skis this year like I always do. I already have an awesome quiver. Let's see how patience sits with me. Clearly not my strong suit!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 30, 2010, 09:27:29 am
John:

Sounds a lot like you may have "figuratively" bought the ski, even if you haven't yet "literally" pulled the PayPal trigger!? ?>:D ;D

My logic. I only have two pair of skis, the SuperShape Magnums and Watea 84's (soon to be replaced?), and I"m looking at the UC as a western 1-ski quiver with more float than the Wateas without giving up anything on groomed (and turn radius is less).? ?Since i'm not likely able to demo, since we all know that sometimes there are differences between lengths of the same ski, since I'm wowed by its alleged versatility, and since mid 170's is what I would normally pick anyway, the fact that the 178 is what the reviews are based on makes the 178 a safer choice for me.

And yes, it is a twintip. And, even more important, it has Peter's green icon which is what works for me.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on August 30, 2010, 02:17:41 pm
Jim, I'm not sure how many 100m waisted skis you have been on but I will tell you in advance that just by the size of the waist they are much harder to get on edge and to get high/deep edge angles with. It's also very easy to dig the inside ski while carving when the waist is that wide. The Chariot has that tight turn radius which will make edge lock carving tight turns possible, IMO it will still require a lot of work, balance and precision. The reward for this may be an incredible do everything ski, but I wanted to warn you in advance. Even though this ski has a 15m TR it is still 100m underfoot and the ski will be cumbersome. The dream of that perfect one ski quiver lingers, but a reality check tell us that if you want to carve tight turns with high edge angles get on a 66mm waisted ski with 12m TR.

Having said all that I am dying to see how the Chariots ski on hard snow. My guess is that they will be the best 100mm ski either of us have ever skied on groomed terrain. Or at least I hope so!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on August 30, 2010, 02:57:35 pm
why do you want a 100mm ski for hard pack or groomers for that matter?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 30, 2010, 03:28:30 pm
Points well taken. ?Physics is still physics, and the lever arm from the center of the boot to the edge of the ski increased another 8mm, so I am giving up something. In fact I see the fact that they "ski short" as a plus on the groomers, and I don't ski as well as you or generate the edge angles that you do.

On those rare days when there is truly hard snow in Colorado/Utah I will rent something. ?Even the Watea's have left my ankles aching at the end of the day a couple of times, but I can't remember many days like that (maybe a couple last year). ?I had many more days when the flotation Lynn was getting with her 84mm waisted Muangas (Zeal) made it much easier for her to navigate the trees or whereever we were, places where I was thinking that it would be nice to have a wider ski (if it weren't a boat). ?Anytime you seek versatility, you give up utility somewhere, but I am backing away from the "thrill" of lugging around 2 pair of skis. ?

But I am intrigued by Peter's description that "maybe they've created the ski that couldn't be done" and I'm reassured that the groomed snow skiing won't be any worse than with the Wateas. ?In fact, a case could be made that they will turn as well as the Watea's (18m TR) at lesser edge angles because the shovel will engage earlier.

I was talking with Lynn earlier and decided that maybe I should personalize them with my Epic login name rather than my real name. ?Makes them distinct and easily identifiable if necessary, but not much stigma if reselling becomes desired. ?That should be a trend, would love to see "dawgcatching" or "carver" or "wearsthe foxhat" or some of the other distinctive names on a pair of skis, for example.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 30, 2010, 03:30:08 pm
why do you want a 100mm ski for hard pack or groomers for that matter?

I don't.? I'm pretty happy with the SuperShape Magnum's for that.?
I want a ski for all of the mountain that is inbounds (or, given Lynn's mood of the day, at least close to inbounds).? ;D
Or maybe a better phrase would be that I want a tree and powder ski that retains as much groomed slope ability as possible.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on August 31, 2010, 06:52:10 am
well I have a pair of 179 pilgrims I am selling..... 90 underfoot, very easy to ski, great in bumps, decent float and still very adept on the groomers. 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 31, 2010, 07:28:40 am
well I have a pair of 179 pilgrims I am selling..... 90 underfoot, very easy to ski, great in bumps, decent float and still very adept on the groomers.
Hmmm.  How much? 
84->90 versus 84->100 Hmmm.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on August 31, 2010, 09:37:45 am
Jim.....if you're comparing the 84 Watea's to the Pilgrims...ain't no comparison....I think from my time on both skis that the Pilgrim is much more versatile.

As good on the groomers but the Pilgrim is hands down the winner in broken snow, pow, crud and bumps.

G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 31, 2010, 11:21:03 am
Well, Gary, actually the link below is what has me contemplating a ski that I may not really "need".?
Ratings similar to the Kastle's from last year (and probably still) but at a significantly lower price point - and I really like the wood inlays.
And if I upgrade I think I want more than just going from 84 to 90. I may need 100mm in order to keep up with Lynn on her 84mm Fischer Muangas (=Zeal).
I tried repeatedly to tell her that, at her 115 lbs, she didn't need such a wide ski, but to no avail.? ?;D

Oh, and the top sheet in the picture isn't the one that Lynn picked out.? You can get any of their wood patterns on any of the skis, and she selected Elvira for me.? >:D



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on August 31, 2010, 12:01:54 pm
Jim,
You sure sound smitten with the Urll's. The difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys! ::) Personally, I don't want to be on the bleeding edge of technology, maybe, just behind it. Consider waiting for some on-snow report outs. An advantage to a single  western ski is that you get to know how it performs, something like knowing the devil you are with as compared to renting and dealing with the devil you don't know.

Just to speak to JB's point about getting wider skis on edge. My only experience with wider ski's are the Kastle 88's which can't really be called wide in today's definitions. I found that after a few days on them, my knees begin to hurt. The major reason is that I'm still doing my PMTS carving technique and it takes more to get them on edge and keep them there. As you point out, physics is physics. So my thinking is that I will use more brushing, less carving, and use wider radius turns when cruising.

Hmmm, wonder what HH will say when the first pair of Urll's shows up at a camp.

PS - what is your epic login?

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on August 31, 2010, 12:19:11 pm
WOW Jim...what a sweet review on that ski....and I love the dims..

If we're talkiing price point....I gotta believe the 11mm in fatness are going to cost ya...I'm guessing Ron's going to be pricing out those Pilgrims right.

If you decided to keep the 84 Watea for your everyday ski...I think it might be worth the width to go to something in the 100 to 110 width for those pow and deep crud snow days. On those days you're not using that width to create high edge angles like Mike was saying.....it can be hard on the knees especially when something 100+ wide decided to hook up. Never had any of that at all with the Pilgrims but did with teh Watea 94.

The key is to determine what you want them for. My JJ's are not for carving....they're for slurrying, slurping, surfing, floating, and sucking up and gliding over pow and soft crud. I wouldn't even think of taking them out on a hard snow day of any kind...I've tried and the vibration beat the crap out of me.
G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 31, 2010, 12:38:39 pm
 ;D Wellll, lets take the issues one by one.

- Gandalf

- HSS did have a guy show up December '09 Blue/Dark Blue camp with really wide skis.? After the on-snow evaluation session, which is where they first saw the skis he brought, they carefully explained to him that they were unable to effectively teach him on equipment that might be fine for free skiing but wasn't conducive to what they were teaching.? They offered to loan him a pair of appropriate skis.? I don't know what the resolution was, but he was VERY hesitant about the taste of the Kool-Aid.? I admired Diana for sticking to their guns.

- Keeping the Supershape Magnums for east coast skiing and/or attending Harb or other camps (but trying to avoid schlepping two pair around all the time).? "Schlepping" now there's a word from the past.

- My knees have never bothered me with the 84's, but I've also pretty much avoided using them on even semi-hard slopes (never around here).? But I also have pretty neutral alignment, maybe that is part of it.? I seem to remember there were a couple of days when my ankles were tired.? Interestingly, skiing together there have been days when Lynn's knees were bothering her and we were both on 84mm waisted skis.? But then, she's a girl.? ?>:D :o

- I KNOW that even on narrower skis I don't generate the angles or edging that Jbotti or Gary (or Phil or Ron) do, so I'm not too worried about maintaining what I can't do.? However, the small turning radius might allow me to do the same turns I do now with lesser edge angles (the 84's TR is 18).

- I just want them for general skiing out west, but that is becoming more and more soft snow and tree centric.? And, I beleive its easier to rent a "standard rental" ski for a western ice day than to get a good powder ski on an epic day.? I had many more days last year when I wished for more width than I did days where I regretted the width of the Watea's because the snow was too firm.

- Peter has enough on-snow time with them (1 day) that's he already decided to buy a pair to go along with his Contact 4x4's.? Of course, I'm not the skier that Peter is either, but this is about as positive as I've heard him review a ski, and I've had pretty good luck sticking to skis that have his green icon ((i'm not the blue or black skier by his system).? And I regretted buying the iM77 Chip merely because the iM75 chip that Gary had was so good.? Peters's reviews were right on there as well, and the non-chip was a better ski.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on August 31, 2010, 04:27:24 pm
Jim, the beauty of this country is that you can do whatever you want and buy whatever skis you want unfortunately even if you don't have the money to pay for them. You and I are somewhere between intrigued and smitten with what we think these ski are and can be. Enjoy buying a pair and know that you owe no explanation other than you liked what you saw and you wanted them. I have said for years the only real quiver anyone needs is a solid slalom carver on hard snow and a powder ski (do as I say not as I do!!). I think with the chariot and the Magnum you will have a great 2 ski quiver. Enjoy!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on August 31, 2010, 05:40:40 pm
Jim, the beauty of this country is that you can do whatever you want and buy whatever skis you want unfortunately even if you don't have the money to pay for them. You and I are somewhere between intrigued and smitten with what we think these ski are and can be. Enjoy buying a pair and know that you owe no explanation other than you liked what you saw and you wanted them. I have said for years the only real quiver anyone needs is a solid slalom carver on hard snow and a powder ski (do as I say not as I do!!). I think with the chariot and the Magnum you will have a great 2 ski quiver. Enjoy!!


JB
You gotta understand that Jim NEEDS to explain.
This is how he is rationalizing this impending purchase to himself! >:D

But, ultimately, you are correct. ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 31, 2010, 06:24:22 pm
Jim,
You sure sound smitten with the Urll's. The difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys! ::)
PS - what is your epic login?

Mike:  I'm not so sure about that anymore.  Have you priced PlayStations and WII's recently?  And then added in the price of a good "quiver" of games?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 31, 2010, 06:27:24 pm
Jim, the beauty of this country is that you can do whatever you want and buy whatever skis you want unfortunately even if you don't have the money to pay for them. You and I are somewhere between intrigued and smitten with what we think these ski are and can be. Enjoy buying a pair and know that you owe no explanation other than you liked what you saw and you wanted them. I have said for years the only real quiver anyone needs is a solid slalom carver on hard snow and a powder ski (do as I say not as I do!!). I think with the chariot and the Magnum you will have a great 2 ski quiver. Enjoy!!


JB
You gotta understand that Jim NEEDS to explain.
This is how he is rationalizing this impending purchase to himself! >:D

But, ultimately, you are correct. ;D
Isnt' she wonderful??
GUILTY!!  Lynn patiently listened to my rationalizing all weekend (not to mention looking at the online pictures and reading the review and listening to the emails back from Dave Mazz and Peter).
Finally said that she thought it was time for a bike ride (and it was). 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on September 01, 2010, 05:25:42 am
well I have a pair of 179 pilgrims I am selling..... 90 underfoot, very easy to ski, great in bumps, decent float and still very adept on the groomers.?

If I may sidetrack Jim's thread for a second (gosh, that would be a first, eh?), Ron now that you have skied the Kastle 88, how does it differ from the Pilgrim? Very close in width, 88 vs 90.

Also, Jim, I'm not a gammer, but, I've seen the cost of individual games and they can be pricey.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 01, 2010, 07:23:19 am
88 vs. 90 or even 88-92 is neglible at best the real difference is going to be overall dims, longitudinal & lateral flex, "metal" type of wood and other factors like base material. don't get so caught up on the width, it's just one factor. The 88 is a clear notch up on performance. Phil said it best, it skis narrower when on hard pack and skis wider when on soft snow. It's uber stable at speed, holds an edge on steeper chalky stuff (I didn't ski anything steeper than 30 degrees, which isn't that steep) but the tops of some of the cornices and drops were pretty steep but short. The Pilgrim is a greaat ski, just more soft snow oriented, it does have a speed limit, where as the 88 didn't (I am not darren Ralves).  in manky sofish refreeze, suncupped crap, it was so stable, A strong downhill leg and the ski just ripped through it all. Again, I was blown away at the stability in this stuff.

So to summarize, the pilgrim is a great soft snow ski,  very capable in some powder, loose soft snow, soft groomers and very nice in bumps. (No bumps to try the 88's in) A very easy ski, forgiving and fun, lots of energy.  The 88 is a more serious crud busting, soft snow, hard snow ski, more powerful and stable.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on September 01, 2010, 08:02:50 am
Jim.....you just loaded the "sympathy"train with a gaggle of male supporters. You have bloggingly flogged yourself on this public forum for all to see.

You now are guilt free, have the support of the masses AND an understanding lady.....what's a little money at YOUR age!  >:D

Life is short my friend and powder days are even fewer... ::)

Now...don't worry....be happy...  ;D

The right tools for the day do make the difference...just ask any shopper in the Sears Tool Department!

Lots of time left before snow falll and with Phil at your beckon call to provide you a great deal....what more do you need.....go ahead skier....."make my day"!  8)

G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on September 02, 2010, 07:18:47 am
Jim,

Thanks for permitting us to share in your ski selection decision. JB is quite correct in stating you have every  right to buy and ski whatever model you wish. One value of this forum is that you can ask for the input of others, and, it's perfectly ok to say "this is what I'm doing and thanks for the thinking". Hey, consider buying Ullr's with an adjustable for length binding so I can try them when the day comes we ski out west. My Kastle 88's are adjustable so we can swap easily.

Just another thought about tree skiing. Each needs to find a technique that works in trees that is bulletproof as your body looses in a collision with said tree. My experience is this means spending days in light woods trying to re-figure it out. Nothing is magic, but, you already know that.

It's an intriguing ski. Hmmm, another Obama ski capable of producing "change we can believe in"????? ::)
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 02, 2010, 07:53:47 am
Mike:

You going to get brushed a little bit by Hurricane Earl???

Actually, the thanks is to ALL of you, and especially to JBotti who started it all.  I hadn't even looked at SkiLogik reviews.? :) :) :)? I always over-think things a little bit (or so I've been told) and it has been a lot of fun doing that interactively here on the forum at a time when there wasn't much other skiing talk going on. And the fact that this indirectly led to Lynn gettting new boots that she certainly needed is just a little extra frosting on the cake (thank you PhilPug).? ;D

I would be glad to bring the Ullr's Chariot to Elk so that everyone could try them in the worst possible conditions for such a ski, and I am definitely leaning towards the PowerRail binding setup?? ?>:D >:D

On a completely different note, I wish everyone a completely wonderful holiday weekend.? Most of the weather here looks to be awesome, Lynn is going to get overnight lows in the 40's for the first time this season; winter gradually approacheth.

 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 02, 2010, 08:07:48 am
The only real question is who will pull the trigger first!! I hate to say this but I would put your money on me. I know I can demo them in November at Loveleand but it will be on groomed terrain and the coverage off piste will be so poor that I won't take them in and detsroy even someone elses demo skis. Hence, I won't really get a good test on these until I tale them ouut in MT on a powder day. Unlike Jim, I know I won't take the Chariots unless it's soft, fresh, and deep!! Havimg said that, I certainly would be happy to have Jim have the honors here. I will post as soon as I pull the trigger and Jim hopefully you will do the same.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 02, 2010, 08:29:42 am
I would really suggest demoing these frist! The dims are a little carzy, I have a concern for these in broken and crud being a little hooky with way too much sidecut.  defintiely not a powder ski, not sure where they really fit. May be fun on soft groomers I guess. demo first..... resale on these is going to be difficult.  lots of very good 100 +/- skis out there already. Jim, not sure if a mid 90's ski isn't a better choice for you. Watea 94, kastle 94, Sultan 94 and some others out there. More traditional design some have a early rise tip. If you are looking for versitility, frontside resort powder lasts about 2 hours, then it's broken and piled,. just keep that in mind. Kastle mx98 was a blast to ski and very versitile.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on September 02, 2010, 09:39:43 am
Mike:
You going to get brushed a little bit by Hurricane Earl???

On a completely different note, I wish everyone a completely wonderful holiday weekend.? Most of the weather here looks to be awesome, Lynn is going to get overnight lows in the 40's for the first time this season; winter gradually approacheth.

 

Jim,
Brushed, now there's a Harald term. Far better to be brushed by a hurricane than to have one carve right through!

It's a great morn down here today, sunny and calm. Will probably do some beach time this afternoon. Few people can beach as well as my wife.

Present Earl track is promising as it will be well to the east. If not, we will be long gone! 40 mph winds and an inch of rain projected.

JB - Which would you prefer, hurricanes or earth quakes? Humbug and go away to both!

All have a great Labor Day.

A minor tree skiing story. 4 years ago I returned to Breckenridge with some friends who are tree skiers. We skied the Outback chair area of Keystone with great glades. Not real steep, not real tight, not real bumped up. It took me 3 days to figure it out, but, it's just so great when it happens. Stopping in the glades and looking around is like being in a great cathedral of nature. I felt very insignificant and unworthy.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 02, 2010, 09:47:29 am
I think in broken snow these will be great. I really use sidecut alot in crud and chop. Used properly a wide ski with sidecut can be a great tool and be much easier on the legs than pushuing tails to tighten the turn. But I also agree that this is a design that I have not seen before and you are right that it could be funky. I also agree that they may not be easy skis to sell. The one thing we do have is Peter's review and according to Jim Peter has skied these himself and raves about them. I will probably wiat to demo in November. Thanks for the comments.

Of course if I can't wait and end up buying a pair without demoing and I end up not loving them, it won't be the first time for that either!! I think I will wait.

I think this is the question and you can answer it fior us. How do the shamans hold up in Pow, chop and Crud. These skis take a page from the Shamans with fat tips, lots of sidecut and a short TR. The 173 Shaman has the same TR as the 178 chariot. Max 501 on the PMTS forum raves about his shamans because he can use the sidecut in crud and chop and bumps off piste, and with the fat tips the ski floats as well in the fluffy stuff. If the Shamans ski well in 3d conditions so should the chariots.

Now I will say that I have had skis with carbon Fiber abd fiberglass. Both the lotus 138 and the PM Gear Lhasa Pow had some of both. In general I felt the ski were a little too light and lacked some ofthe bulldozer characteristics that I prefer in a bomber powder ski. ?The Lhasa Pow was IMO especially lacking in true torsional rigidity. That is by biggest concern with CF and Fiberglass skis that have no metal. Yeah, I best demo these!!

Ron walk us through your thoughts on the Shamans.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 02, 2010, 09:53:40 am
Personally I always kind of liked Hurricane threats that we had growing up on the east coast. I can say this because In NY we never really had a devatstaing Hurricane ht directlly. I remember simming down my block one day because it had rained so hard. As a kid that was really fun!! Earthquakes last about ten seconds and in most instances there is not much damage. Not sure I want to be around for a big one!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 02, 2010, 09:55:53 am
Ron:

Thanks for the words of caution, and good points, and something to ponder on. ?I still remember that when I bought the Watea 84 I was considering the 94 as well and you and Gary (correctly) indicated that it was stiffer and not as fun and that the 84 was a better ski for me. ?I appreciated that, because I had made a similar mistake with the Head iM77 at a time in the past. ?And I have become a better skier, so maybe the fact that none of the three you mentioned has the trusty green icon is as much of a concern. ?

However, impressed by the physical appearance and intrigued by the versatility I remain and will most likely buy. ?But I will remember and do appreciate the honest advice.

John:? Can't resist.? Is that the reason you are still riding that metal race bike, because you don't get the torsional rigidity from Carbon Fiber.

Mike: I was forced to evacuate from Oak Island down in North Carolina once (south of Wilmington, north of Myrtle Beach).? The island got devastated, lost almost every house on the front row (and half of the beach itself).? I have been back since then, but they still haven't completely recovered and that's been 6 or more years.


Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 02, 2010, 10:07:02 am

And John makes a good point.  ;D

Often we learn more from our mistakes than our successes, and/or our mistakes lead to subsequent successes.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 02, 2010, 10:47:24 am
Shamans are a fun and very powerful ski,? very floaty for thier shape I don't care for them on groomers and I definitely didn't like them in the bumps. I think the 160 tip takes a little to get used to but its great in the powder and broken (but you have to watch it in the broken and crud!) its very stiff and I prefer more flex in the tip.  I don't make as many SR turns as you guys and tend to be more in the trees and other areas and not in the open so i will use the ski differently given the need.? No need to push the tails unless you are trying to ski beneath the TR of the ski, then you have to brush or drift or scarve anyway. The extra Sidecut becomes an issue when skiing in variable chopped crap and skiing more straight or wide turns at some speed, it's just the dynamics of the ski. Again, ski what you like the way you like. For me, I am going to the 88's for my everyday this season unless its fresh or leftover. Simply an amazing ski, highly adaptable, uber stable and you can really work it as needed. Even manky chop was a breeze on them.? After skiing them in Chile in the absolute worst conditions refreeze, suncupped, coral, rotten mank and bullet proof in the AM, they were life savers! I love these skis.

Did you see the TR I posted on Epic for Chile?

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/95541/valle-nevado-august-26-epic-tag-pics
if you are on FB
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000226789241#!/photo.php?pid=505113&id=100000226789241&ref=fbx_album
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 02, 2010, 12:04:01 pm
Jim, I do own several carbon fiber bikes. I'm not sure the ski manufacturers have figured out how to use it well yet. If it was truly superior to metal, you would see it in race skis and this is not the case. The big race ski companies have the money, the R&D people and the resources to put it in all their race skis. Clearly it does not perfrom as well as metal at high speeds when the skis are being torqued to their max. In cycling clearly Carbon Fiber is lighter and as torsionally stiff as is needed on a bike. Not sure the forces are anywhere near what occurs on a ski in a GS course.

Lightness sounds great. It's epecially nice when you are carrying and hiking. What is unclear is whether light skis can perform in high torque environments anywhere near as well as heavier skis. On a bike especially ascending, weight is everything. Last I checked when you are skiing you are always headed downhill. Weight is actually your friend (if you like going fast!!).

I don't think the analogy with bikes holds up that well with regard to carbon fiber and skis.

Of course some people like the way carbon fiber skis feel because they feel light. I don't think they perform as well at speed and are not as torsionally stiff no matter what DPS, PM Gear or Dave at ski logic say in their marketing material.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 02, 2010, 12:14:37 pm
not been on any CF's but I do like the heavier more solid feel of the MX line for instance or Icelantics (althogh they aren't heavy)
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 02, 2010, 12:33:13 pm
Lightness sounds great. It's epecially nice when you are carrying and hiking. What is unclear is whether light skis can perform in high torque environments anywhere near as well as heavier skis. On a bike especially ascending, weight is everything. Last I checked when you are skiing you are always headed downhill. Weight is actually your friend (if you like going fast!!).

I don't think the analogy with bikes holds up that well with regard to carbon fiber and skis.
I agree, there is no comparison with the value of carbon bikes going uphill and carbon in skis for going downhill. Was just pulling your chain a bit.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 02, 2010, 12:54:58 pm
hmmm,,, My CF Ibis.....   read on

http://www.ibiscycles.com/tech/
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 02, 2010, 01:01:23 pm
hmmm,,, My CF Ibis..... read on

http://www.ibiscycles.com/tech/

LOL.?  ;D ;D ;D  OK, allow me to fall on my sword.? I was speaking strictly from a road bike perspective and for me wanting less weight is mostly an issue going UPHILL.? Going downhill, I wouldn't mind having a 50 pound pack on my back cause it gives me more speed.? But you have a VERY good point in that I used the word bicycles rather than specifying road bikes without even knowing or considering that there may be performance CF advantages?going downhill on "off-road" bikes.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 02, 2010, 01:19:49 pm
climbing yes, for sure! 

I like a solid feeling ski but I don't think its mutually inclusive of being heavy. The icelantics for instance are pretty lightweight but very solid feeling. OTH, I agree that a light, "tinny" ski just doesn't seem to be as stable or have that 'feel" I think we're all talking about.
Title: Dodge Boots
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 07, 2010, 09:35:23 am
The "Dodge Boot" series of posts has been split off and moved under the Boots section.

Signed: A moderator.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 07, 2010, 10:18:56 am

Just wanted to say that I went ahead and ordered a pair of the Ullr Chariots. 
I'll give a fuill ski report based on hand flexing and torsion testing later in the month.  ;D ;D

And, as Ron so aptly put it, I too have made mistakes in the past and will again in the future. 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 07, 2010, 10:46:43 am
Hey congrats and which topsheets did you pick?

Can you order me a pair of Howitzers in the indian pipe design?   ???
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 07, 2010, 10:49:07 am
Hey congrats and which topsheets did you pick?

Can you order me a pair of Howitzers in the indian pipe design? ???
Congrats??? Hope so.? Too intrigued to pass up.? >:D >:D? If not, I'll hang them on a wall somewhere.
My style and fashion department (Lynn) confirmed my preference for the "Elvira" artwork.? I liked the fact that both skis make a single picture, which is also what I really admired about the Hart ?Pulse? that you were consulting/involved with.?

Wellll, I "could" order you a pair with that topsheet, but probably would work better if YOU cut me out as a middleman.? ;D ;D Time to call PhilPug.
If you're serious (but I believe there is a pair of Keeper's in your future),? ??? I assume you know that you can order any of their skis with any of their topsheet designs, and they are now showing a new Tiger design on their webpage??
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 07, 2010, 10:52:45 am
Jim, what TS's did you order? 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 07, 2010, 11:46:58 am
Jim, what TS's did you order?
Posted above.? You were too quick, I posted before I could finish the whole thing, and then went back to edit in the rest.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 07, 2010, 12:10:12 pm
all are very cool and congrats!  I have the new Keepers right now. I will ski them and see how they do. Sticking with the 88's and Keepers for now. I will ski them in December and then go from there. I am hoping they prove to be versitile and quick enough for tighter trees. They should be pretty good just based on the fact they have a fair amount of the tip rocker and modest tail rocker. Time will tell!

BUT more importantly, those are some beautiful ski's and I am anxious to see some pics of the rocker profile and actual taper on the tip/shovel. 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 07, 2010, 12:15:51 pm
Congrats. I am glad that smeone else was first with the Keelty induced impulse purchase this year. I usually win that prize. As I said in the other thread, I will have these out on snow in early November. I will post my view and Harald Harbs view because he will try these as well as we are skiing together. I will also test drive the Howitzers as well.

Jim, sure seems like you are buying some awesome skis. Congrats and enjoy!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 07, 2010, 01:21:17 pm
Jim, sure seems like you are buying some awesome skis. Congrats and enjoy!!
We can only hope, but thanks.? :) It's like an unopened Christmas present, not sure whether you'll like what's inside or not. ;D ;D So Lynn was picking on me a bit, asked me if I planned on getting these in, putting them in the corner to look at for a few weeks, and then selling them?? Or did I actually plan on skiing them??

JB:? Unless they get a lot of snow early out west (not consistent with SnowHot's posted prognostication) it will probably be January before I ski them.? Early December trip may be to Vermont (cause East coast get early winter) and then a January trip to Utah (or Colorado if Lynn's new boots are needing a lot of attention).?

She needs to ski them a few days first to see what develops, but is very hopeful that not much will be required.? She shell-fit herself at 23.5 when the store guy measured her at a 25, but the boots still felt amazingly comfortable (considering) in both length and width.? Only time will actually tell, but bound to be a dramatic improvement.? I'm almost sorry that her new-boot joy is getting lost amidst the new ski and boot and binding stuff.? I am strongly leaning towards the power rail bindings, but want to physically see them at a local store before I too buy from Philpug.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 09, 2010, 09:13:59 pm
Ullr's Chariot follow-up.? Here's what the graphics on my ski may look like.? I wanted something unique that was easily identifiable to help keep the skis from walking away.? Initially I was going to put on my name, but thanks to others' comments about the effects that would have on potential resale, I decided to use "Gandalf" a name that I have used in various computer contexts since I read "The Hobbit" some 30 years ago.? Here is the picture of how they suggested integrating that into the topsheet as a Tattoo on "Elvira's" arms.



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 09, 2010, 10:01:07 pm
Awfully sweet!! No matter how they ski you will love those skis!! I can feel my itch a brewing. I am still committed to demoing. Enjoy those Jim, they are awesome!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 10, 2010, 05:08:45 am
those are so beautiul that in the unlikely event you dont like them, they will look very nice on a wall or over a fireplace!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 10, 2010, 07:47:03 am

Actually, thanks to Ron that won't be the artwork.  He had a better idea!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on September 10, 2010, 07:56:07 am

Actually, thanks to Ron that won't be the artwork.? He had a better idea!!

Gandolf,
I liked that artwork. Suggestive figure of a woman, at least to my eyes. Cool on you!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 10, 2010, 08:14:57 am

Mike:

Yes, that is "Elvira" and won't change.  Ron suggested not interrupting the flow of the artwork by putting the name as a Tattoo on the arms, but rounding it around the tail.  It is the figure of a woman with abalone for the eyes (if I have the skis on the correct feet).  If I have them reversed then I'm not sure how it looks. 

One of the things I really liked about at least one of the skis that Ron and Phil were working on was the flow of the artwork across both skis.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on September 10, 2010, 12:34:54 pm

Mike:

Yes, that is "Elvira" and won't change.? Ron suggested not interrupting the flow of the artwork by putting the name as a Tattoo on the arms, but rounding it around the tail.? It is the figure of a woman with abalone for the eyes (if I have the skis on the correct feet).? If I have them reversed then I'm not sure how it looks.?

One of the things I really liked about at least one of the skis that Ron and Phil were working on was the flow of the artwork across both skis.

Gandalf,

I'm like Elvira! ENJOY!
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=105533441#pm_cmp=vid_OEV_P_P
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on September 10, 2010, 05:52:48 pm
So JB,
Are you going to demo both sizes or just the 188.  I am just wondering because to my recollection we are about the same size. ( I am 6'2" and weigh hopefully 190 or less by ski season.)

The effective edge length you posted was interesting.  I am going to have to measure my SS mags for a comparison.

This does look like a good ski for trips out west
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 10, 2010, 08:41:20 pm
I may ask for both sizes. I pretty much know in advance that the 178 is too short especially after getting the running length measurments. If I wanted it for a 1 ski quiver maybe I woukd coinsider the 178. I really want a solid powder ski (in MT you don't 120mm under foot like you might in Tahoe) that has a tight turn radius. I skied the Scott P4's in a 181 and they are way too short. They have especially large twin tips and a short running length. If they are willing I may try the Howitzer and or the Bomb Squad (actually looks preferable as it only has tip rocker and none on the tail).

I will give a full report and review after I ski them. We pretty much know in advance that I won't have the ski out in the ideal condition, fresh snow off piste. Odds are we will be skiing man made groomers at Loveland. 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on September 10, 2010, 09:13:47 pm
That makes sense to me.  I just measured my SS mags and the effective edge length is in the 1585 mm range if I measured right. I laid one on the ping pong table and measured from where the tip and tail met the table.  That would make the 188 possibly ski shorter, especially with the twin tip in deeper snow.  Interesting.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 13, 2010, 11:02:04 am
almost all rockered skis are now going to be in the 186-189 range. the effective range can vary however. One thing to keep in mind is that many have gone to a low, long taper with a very low rise, although the ski may not have contact on a hard surface, it will on soft snow.  They will pivot a lot easier but just keep in mind that all rockers are not the same!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 13, 2010, 11:21:31 am
In the case of the Chariot, it's not rocker at all. It's just some very long twin tips that reduce the running length.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 13, 2010, 12:25:44 pm
ahh, i see! Yeah a very uber mini-rocker almost. very elongated tip/tail profile.  Interesting! 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on September 15, 2010, 09:01:50 pm
So for me, the healer showing his teeth at me while I go into the teeth of some new challenge would be good vibe! I'm a healer, and those bad boys would be just the mojo I need to keep my bones intact.  Ok, so I may have to borrow a black cat bone just to be on the safe side.  But in NC we have some root doctors that can pull that off. 

Come to think of it, Lynn is going to the MOJO capital of the world, too much funny medicine down there.

See what happens when you take what starts as a good thought and run it aground just before bed?  I need sleep.

If your curious google "root doctor"
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 16, 2010, 06:43:58 am
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 16, 2010, 07:41:04 am
Perry:

They only make about 5 pair of skis a day, and with both the RealSkiers and FreeSkier recognition, the window of opportunity might be closing.? Methinks you need to pull the trigger on a pair of Ullr's Chariots or Rave's in the "Healer" top-sheet (maybe even request Onyx eyes).?

Lean those little big puppies up against the office wall (write off the cost as office furnishing, of course) and let the poeple know that the skis are YOUR Mojo (no Head ski pun intended).? You could even have Ski Logic inlay "root doctor" as your official ski-name (even though you clearly aren't)?

By the way everyone should check out the SkiLogik web page again.? They have the RealSkiers and FreeSkier ski of the year results announced.  Of course, therein lies another disadvantage of having 'skis of the year' -- the SkiLogik web says "First Place in Performance of 286 skis tested".  Well, performance isn't defined, and there are lots of areas of performance where other skis were reviewed better and rated higher than the UC.  (but we already had that conversation).

Jim
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 16, 2010, 08:18:57 am
OK, I searched!  Oh herbal healers, some good results coming from the use of some of those herbs and remedies, look for the good!  I didnt know that design was called the healer.  Yeah, Freeskier really pumped the Howitzer for sure. You are correct, the inventory and potential production of those is going to be tapped quickly. So many great skis. 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 17, 2010, 12:42:44 pm
CNBC Write-up on SkiLogik and You-tube posted by Bent Gate Mountaineering of Golden last spring (they plan to carry the line in the fall.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39233796

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9vQ6kV3bJo&feature=sub

http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/116162

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/prnewswire/2010/09/17/prnewswire201009171248PR_NEWS_USPR_____LA66970.html

Perry/Jbotti:? Better grab fast and then sell if you don't like them.? I think there will be a market to resell if you don't like, but they may soon be in short supply.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 17, 2010, 01:44:58 pm
very cool and that's great for them!  Buy now, you can always take a look and return.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 17, 2010, 02:30:04 pm
I am going to be stubborn on these. I am demoing in November. I will hope that if I love them, Dave will find me a pair or make me a new one!! I also think that there will be a much smaller market for the chariots than for some of the other Ski Logik skis. We are a small fraternity that actually likes sidecut. Most skiers actually hate it especially in powder skis.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 17, 2010, 03:14:58 pm
I am going to be stubborn on these. I am demoing in November. I will hope that if I love them, Dave will find me a pair or make me a new one!! I also think that there will be a much smaller market for the chariots than for some of the other Ski Logik skis. We are a small fraternity that actually likes sidecut. Most skiers actually hate it especially in powder skis.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on September 21, 2010, 12:34:36 pm
We are a small fraternity that actually likes sidecut.?

JB,

As you have stated previously, the appeal of the deep waisted ski is in decline. I'm wondering what the causes are? I can understand the appeal in bigger mountain western skiing, but, for the east, I think somewhere around 78 mm waist the ability to get on edge, perform at speed and remain comfortable all day long is optimized as a "daily driver". Maybe it's as simple as the newer skis just turn easier no matter what the waist. It amazes me on Epic when an eastern skier asks for recommendations, many recommend something around 88 and above. The Philpug's can ski a 88 in the east, but, how many ski with his ability and hard charging style?

One aspect of skiing that interests me is looking at those skiing down while I'm riding the chair. Honestly, I see very little skiing that excites me. I want to watch 1 in 20. So much tail pushing, standing straight up, hands at sides and making the same boring skids. Maybe it's just that if you are going to ski poorly, any ski will assist you in getting there. Perhaps the day of technique is over, replaced by instant gratification of just going fast. Somehow the concept of learning to ski first and then developing an individual style has been lost.
 
Certainly, ski manufactures benefit as skiers are enticed to get something new, and the sport needs money pumped into it. Hype is a great stimulant. I've benefited from a second ski to do things that my daily driver does not deliver, and, no knock intended on those seeking to extend the range of equipment they enjoy.

Maybe I'm just locking in on my personal beliefs and should not be so harsh on others enjoyment. Although we may like others to think and do as we do, it's just not the way of the world. What I believe is that we all need to match our individual needs to the ski we select, and, not to be in lock-step with a trend.

Rant over!

PS - Jim, congrats on starting a thread that has such a long life!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 21, 2010, 12:54:06 pm
If I lived on the east coast and skied in the east (vermont) I would only be on slalom carvers pretty much all the time except when there was a big dump. My guess is that with fresh snow I would be on the IM 78 (or a Kastle MX78) or maybe an 88 waisted ski. Not sure (don't know East Coast snow) you ever get the 2 feet dumps. The other question is how fast does it get skied out and my sense is that the answer to that is very fast. So if you will be skiing on crowded slopes with minimal amounts of fresh snow, with ice underneath, I have trouble seeing why anyone would want or need a real fat ski with a wide TR. Rocker would be the last thing I would ever consider in these conditions.

I do think it has a lot to do with the issues that many of us have talked about with ski intsruction in general. People are not getting what they need with instruction so they are more than eager to listen to the ski companies that have innovations that they say will make things easier. One thing is for sure, rocker is not making intermediates better skiers, but it is enabling some to ski terrain in pow that they never could have before. Unfortunately it actually makes their basic technique worse, but most don't care!! In that respect it really is a bit of a gamechanger.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 21, 2010, 03:08:27 pm

I wonder if its the snowboard influence.  People take a 30 minutes lesson and they are able to "board".  How many boarders do we watch that really use the edges. There are some that really can, but the vast majority (especially at local hills) are just sliding and skidding their way down the hill, and enjoying.  I think wide skis emulate some of that, and the width makes them easier to slide around without those nasty edges getting in the way.  Similarly, snowboards really float in powder -- so do the wide boards.

The other option is that it is slick marketing by the ski companies creating a market that really isn't there.

Bottom line question??  Are more of the "average" skiers excited about and having a good time skiing because of wide boards, even if it is only because they provide the illusion of big mountain skiing??  I think the answer is yes, and if they are enjoying it then its hard to fault them for the way they've found to enjoy outdoor physical activity.

My east coast ski is my Head SuperShape Magnums.  72 under the waist with pretty decent versatility.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 21, 2010, 03:34:40 pm
http://shop.nextadventure.net/ski-logik-ullrs-chariot.html

just in case...
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on September 22, 2010, 06:12:00 am
http://shop.nextadventure.net/ski-logik-ullrs-chariot.html

just in case...

LOL, too funny!

Ron,
From the Real Skiers archives and living proof that you got your skiing progression done right and on a Supershape!

PS - If I had a house at the 'boat, I'd be a much fatter guy! ;D

SKI: SuperShape w/FF12's 170's 121-66-107
Skier, level 8/9
AGE:42
Weight: 175
height 6

Conditions: Icy, hardpack to Fresh 8" of powder

Overview:The SS is truly an incredible ski!? This is simply the best ski I have ever skied on. Incredibly versitile, an absolute blast to ski on.? I did not ski on anything the SS couldn't handle. It's my 80% ski. (the IM82 is the 20%). Fast, nimble and rock solid. I would have to compare this most like a RX8.? It is not for intermediates!? It likes to be driven.? Skidders need not apply, you will not be happy! bring your technique and love of speed. Not a Sunday driver.

Icy hardpack and firm groomed day: Ski just thrives on ice and boilerplate, very stable and transitioning from ice to hardpack was seemless. This ski is just rock solid. Obviously, with the sidecut on this ski, carving is a dream, its so easy to rock this baby over and lay some of the tightest, deepest trenches! It is also happy to make large and medium turns, short turns are rapid fire, the ski is so nimble and perfectly balanced (for me) the reaction to minor movements is almost exaggerated. Just too much fun. You will want to drive this ski.

8" of fresh powder and piled up powder (blue level mogols)- I was thinking that I was crazy with these skis in the fresh powder. As I went down my first run, I was waiting for the sides to catch, nope didn't happen!? Don't be fooled by the 66mm waiste, the ski has so much float with the 122 up front and the 107 in back, it blasted through everything with ease. The only time it got caught up a bit was skiing GS turns across the fall line in about 1.5 foot piles of powder.? Even then it was manageable.? I actually demoed the 82's that day and that's where they sold me.

Ski the SS aggressively and actively, technique is a must, don't learn to carve on these, they aren't going to be a good choice, if you are a carve juncky like I am, you must ski them. Beg borrow or steal (just not mine) but? get on a pair.

Quote from: gandalf/ullr

Original of this review was posted on April 17, 2006

Quote
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 22, 2010, 08:14:52 am
That was pre historic Ron. Truly a different era. Someone pulled up an old thread on Epic where Ron was talking about never wanting or needing anything wider than his IM 82's. My guess is that on the east coast you really don't.

Nice to see that at one point Ron thought the SS's were great skis!!

In my book it is a ski that sits alone in that spot (recreational slalom carver) and the new one with KERS (as I have said ad nauseum) is a huge step up.

Ron, my only point to you is that you can still ski the Bent Chetlers when there is great fresh snow, but skiing SS's on groomers when it hasn't snowed in 2 weeks is still a lot of fun and really good for your skiing. Rocking high edge angle slalom turns is still almost as much fun as skiing fresh powder (at least for me). I did say almost!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 22, 2010, 11:42:00 am
omg!  thats too funny...  my havent i progressed!   I'm such a gaper. 

btw- take a look at the date on my review my bet is that pre-dates the updated review peter/hh one posted......

yes, as always, you can ski a SS but I choose not to. Its not what I enjoy anymore. The most fun I have had on groomers has easily been the MX78. it almost made me want to ski a groomer for more than a day....  the 88 comes damn near close. (I may sell the 78's if only to afford the 100-105)

lineup for this season are the Benny's, a to-be-determined 100-105 ski (most likley setup for touring) and the 88's.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on September 22, 2010, 01:22:20 pm

My east coast ski is my Head SuperShape Magnums.? 72 under the waist with pretty decent versatility.

Jim,
You are in some good company. Over the past 3 years, Ron, Gary, Phil and I have been in Jackson Hole each January. One local person we ski with is Bob Peters who posts on Epic and is a super ambassador for the area. He also is one helluva skier and his daily driver is the Head Magnum. He calls it the perfect JH ski when there are no freshies. He's a rep for Head and has access to their full line so he can select from several skis according to conditions, and, hell no, he does not use them on pow days. JH goes for some long periods without new snow, and as it faces east the snow can get very eastern like.

It's funny that we developed 3 friends there and each skis an entirely different ski. Our friend Stephen (Skiing-in-Jackson) skis the widest skis he can find. David ( Tetonpowderjunkie ) skis 90 plus Nordica's. Go figure. As you have commented many times, to each his (or her) own.

Ron, Phil did an epic post quoting many things I said about fat skies prior to trying and buying the 88's and doing a full 180 degree turn. It is a real trip being convicted by your own words.  Keep giving us your best and current thinking.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 22, 2010, 01:44:55 pm
LP, I dont think I did a 180 on my words at all. In fact, I look at that and see how I have progressed to find skiing an ski's that I truly like. To evolve is good, to be stuck in the same ol' rut shows you have a closed mind and you are not open to find new things that y may enjoy more. I have no issues whatsoever about that review.  It's a very accurate and true review. At that time, it was what I was into.  I will be posting up new reivews in just a few months on new skis (In fact i already poste up reviews on the kaslte 88 this August) I will be on. The Bent Chetlers and others. I love trying different ski's, skiing new terrain, using different techniques but most of all, I love joy I realize through skiing hangng with others like-minded.

I can find other reviews if you like?  BTW- I loved that im82, for it's time it was a big pow board and it was the 1st ski I ever went off-piste with.  Now I am on a 142-123-135 20/20 rockered, low cambered toy!  Whoo-hooo! 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 22, 2010, 02:18:20 pm
One aspect of skiing that interests me is looking at those skiing down while I'm riding the chair. Honestly, I see very little skiing that excites me. I want to watch 1 in 20. So much tail pushing, standing straight up, hands at sides and making the same boring skids. Maybe it's just that if you are going to ski poorly, any ski will assist you in getting there. Perhaps the day of technique is over, replaced by instant gratification of just going fast. Somehow the concept of learning to ski first and then developing an individual style has been lost.
 match our individual needs to the ski we select, and, not to be in lock-step with a trend.

1. They may be skidding and looking boring (and I was there at one time) but are they on the mountain and getting their money's worth.? First you have to be there and enjoying what you are doing before "getting better" at what you are doing ever becomes an issue.? I once had a day at Winter Park with a foot of icy crystals and snow (heavy) and my 30 year old son said "Well dad, at your age you may have to accept that you won't get any better."? That was my motivation to change, but I was already enjoying skiing (and finding the limitations of my skillset).  I have often thanked him for that 'insensitive' comment.

2. Some people accept (maybe even need) the concept and value of coaching, usually people that have been coached in other sports or are just a bit competitive.? Those of us that want to get better through coaching are actually the ones in the minority.? ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 22, 2010, 02:59:16 pm
considering the average skier in on the snow less than 10 days (pretty sure it's 7.5 days) its a huge expense to take 3-4 family memebers to the slopes for the days, let alone take lessons (which most view as boring and a waste of their day) this is another reason for the popularity of snowboarding. Much lower cost, faster learning curve, to most its a social event.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on September 23, 2010, 07:36:42 am
LP, I dont think I did a 180 on my words at all. 

Ron,
Perhaps I phrased it in an awkward manner, but, my intent was to show how much I flipped on the issue of wider skis.

Just too funny reading your SS review, made me want to go out and buy one! Hey wait a second, they are all-ready my daily driver. ;D

Diversity is a good thing. Like I said, keep giving your best and current thinking.

Jim/Ron

Cost/Value of ski instruction needs a whole other thread. I, for one, do not miss the shock associated with opening my wallet to take my 4 person family for a day's skiing.



Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 23, 2010, 12:29:33 pm
Mike, you haven't flipped either, again, this is a ski that through technology and your progression of skills has made the width of the ski a non-sequetor, besides, the width of a ski is only one of many other factors that have a huge effect on it's performance/handling...
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 24, 2010, 07:38:24 am
My anticipation and pre-season ski excitement grows.? I'll post some pictures once I receive them
Perry: Note the quote about "they are very busy".? I think Dr. Perry needs to pull the trigger on some Healers.
JBotti: Clearly, I will be on my skis before you ---? :( :( too bad there won't be any snow within 1000 miles when I click into them.? ;D? Glad you are demoing - I look forward to hearing your thoughts.  Will be interesting to see if the overall ski performance and short turn radius is enough to outwiegh the twintip construction.  And the Howitzer doesn't have the 15m turn radius, but is probably the better soft snow ski and that's the area where you are looking to supplement your quiver.  Or maybe the UC will so overwhelm you with it's abilities that you decide to buy and worry about where it fits in your quiver later??

Quote from: Mariella @ SkiLogik
Hi Jim,
 
I have submitted the design and picked the veneer for you today.? They will start on your pair of skis tomorrow.? It will take a few days for the skis to be completed and ready to be shipped because we are really busy.? I will send you the tracking number once they are on their way.
I would say you will receive them within 2 weeks or so.? :-)
 
Have fun...
 
Mariella
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 24, 2010, 08:21:55 am
congrats Jim!  That sounds great. Right tool for the job.....  Speaking Howitzer- a 110 wide ski intended for pow and soft snow does not need to have a 15m TR (theoretical), you are not hard edging turns in powder, you are soft edging the turns so a SR ski is actually working against you; it requires more effort and attention to the turns as opposed to a wider consistent width that will distribute force and float along the entire ski with a taper to the tail for easier release (like a Benny with 140-123-135), meaning easy, less effort to accomplish the same turn.....  the howitzer does look great BTW!!  I think you wil love your ski!!  Can't wait to see the pics.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 24, 2010, 08:30:18 am
My powder ski in MT right now is the K2 Hardside which is 98mm underfoot. So the Chariot would actually be wider. I have had some skis in the 108-115mm zone (and the Lotus 138 was well 138 underfoot). I always find that these skis require a lot of work to get them on edge and at the end of the day I feel tired from tipping them. I think there is a place (for me) for a 110mm ski as a big dump powder day ski. It's still unclear if I need this in MT where the powder is so soft and fluffy. In Tahoe with heavier snow a 110mm ski is more helpful, but everything gets skied out so fast that after the first 2 hours I long to be on a much thinner wasited ski as I am skiing bumps, chop and crud.

If the Chariot is indeed a great carver and it feels like a wonderful ski, I will buy them right there. Again it comes down to TR. If I can have a ski that floats great in fresh snow but I can also use a tight sidecut to help me turn, it could be the perfect fresh snow ski. The Howitzer has tip rocker and more of it than I like. My preference is none but 30cm is quite a bit (vs 15-20cm). I think I have a much better shot at coming home with the UC's than I do the Howitzer.

Looking forward to skiing them both!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 24, 2010, 08:40:25 am
Ron: ?Agreed, and that is effectively what I was saying as well. ?Since John is wanting a powder ski, the Howitzer is a better fit, but it doesn't have the 15m turn radius that John initially found attractive. ?I'm still comfortable in hoping that the Ullr's Chariot is a very good hybrid ski for me, but I'm looking for a 1 ski "do most things well" and am more than willing to agree with and accept Phil's logic that a "jack of all trades will be a master of none."

However, I can hardly wait to hear John's (and Harald's) thoughts on the ski, especially given the likely Loveland conditions at that time of year. ?>:D Not likely to be the most favorable for demoing 100mm waisted skis.

EDIT
John posted his response while I was typing, so a bit out of order.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 24, 2010, 09:39:52 am
Jim, you have it right no worries. You know exactly what ski you bought and what for!  Now go forth and ski  ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 24, 2010, 10:37:51 am
Jim, you have it right no worries. You know exactly what ski you bought and what for!? Now go forth and ski? ;D

Yeah!!!? I bought it for its looks.? ?;D ;D? And? we all know how shallow that is, in women and cars and skis!!?

Actually, I'm very comfortable and excited about the purchase.? Of course, hard to think about snow when its record setting mid-upper 90's outside.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 24, 2010, 10:48:06 am
remember--- All mountain means good at most, great at nothing......

This should be a great soft groomer ripper and just fine for most lighter powder and leftover days.  Great ski for you and I hope the tops are always covered in white....

Oh, wait, that would make them Kastles...... ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 24, 2010, 11:15:47 am
john, just wondering, you realize these skis are designed to be drifted? I can certainly understand why you would be exhausted from trying to tip a ski like that!? Just like I woudn't use a ski like this on the groomed, very tiring and stressful on kness too!? Strike it up to different approaches but I don't get tired skiing powder on wide skis. i can effortlessly turn them on a dime when needed; cruise low angle pow with little energy as the ski can maintain enough speed and momentum as soft edge turns don't kill your speed (unless you want to, then you just need to use more edge); medium to wide turns in the open are just "stupid-easy".? Not knocking what you are doing and many of my firends prefer their 70 and 80 something ski's over fatties too but I wouldn't recommend anyone with that style of skiing to use a fat ski. IMHO that's the wrong tool. More than likely, you don't need more than 90's-105.
btw- Hey, I have been back to using heavy weighted outside ski (90/10) with slight heel lift on inside ski on groomers and crud as I have learned that is a better way for me on that kind of terrain ( but upright and not compressed) . But as it gets progressively softer and then deeper, its more like a 60/40 drift or even 55/45, with soft edges, much less effort and even tighter, faster turns with a fatter ski. no stress on my knees either.



My powder ski in MT right now is the K2 Hardside which is 98mm underfoot. So the Chariot would actually be wider. I have had some skis in the 108-115mm zone (and the Lotus 138 was well 138 underfoot). I always find that these skis require a lot of work to get them on edge and at the end of the day I feel tired from tipping them. I think there is a place (for me) for a 110mm ski as a big dump powder day ski. It's still unclear if I need this in MT where the powder is so soft and fluffy. In Tahoe with heavier snow a 110mm ski is more helpful, but everything gets skied out so fast that after the first 2 hours I long to be on a much thinner wasited ski as I am skiing bumps, chop and crud.

If the Chariot is indeed a great carver and it feels like a wonderful ski, I will buy them right there. Again it comes down to TR. If I can have a ski that floats great in fresh snow but I can also use a tight sidecut to help me turn, it could be the perfect fresh snow ski. The Howitzer has tip rocker and more of it than I like. My preference is none but 30cm is quite a bit (vs 15-20cm). I think I have a much better shot at coming home with the UC's than I do the Howitzer.

Looking forward to skiing them both!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 24, 2010, 11:25:08 am
Jim/John/Perry, heres a review of the Chariot (178) from Epic



The late April day at Jay Peak, Vermont provided temperatures hovering right around the low thirties and a mixture of all types of precipitation across the mountain.? On the summit it was snowing lightly, although slushing may be a better term for it.? What was falling was certainly sticking, and sticky... and there were three to four inches of it on the ground by the time I got there.? Underneath were the remnants of the last thaw/freeze cycle, which were still very much in the freeze side of things.? Turns up top were anything from soft and buttery where the new slush hadn't been hit yet, to hard and scraped off where the masses had already travelled.? As you progressed down the mountain the base got softer and softer, and by the bottom the new precip. was just rain, although thankfully it as mostly just misty, without really very many big drops to speak of.? The combination of warmer temps and the misty conditions actually created some really fun snow, with two inches or so of heavy slush to carve through and nothing to worry about sliding on underneath it.
 
My first impression getting on the skis [aside from how stunningly beautiful they are of course? ] was realizing that I had potentially mounted them too far forward.? With the two mounting lines on the ski so far apart (almost 8cm by my measurement!) I took a shot in the dark and mounted my Salomon z12 demo's at +3 cm from the back line.? Standing on the skis I felt like I was farther forward over the tips than I would like to be, and once or twice while skiing them I had to catch myself from being thrown too far forward when coming out of a turn.? Luckily the demo bindings I used are adjustable fore and aft so I may just be able to slide them back to where I want them, but if not they will be getting re-mounted onto the back line before next season.? Not being much of a park skier I don't really ride any truly center-mounted skis, but I couldn't imagine going any farther forward on these than I already am, and there's almost another 5cm to the front line!?
 
Once I got the moving I was really surprised by how stable they felt, even compared with other 100mm skis that I have ridden.? Smashing through the various degrees of slop that I encountered on my way down the hill they very rarely got deflected, and really felt right at home carving small to medium turns on steep, open terrain no matter what was underneath them.? They felt secure underfoot and "popped"? nicely from one turn to the next no matter how hard they were pressured or how much edge angle was used.? It seemed like the more I had to give and the further I bent them through the turn, the more they were ready to give right back.? At 5'7 160 or so I didn't really find a stopping point, as they continued to get more lively and responsive the more energy I put into them.? Another situation where I got a more stable and solid feeling from them than I have from other similarly waisted skis was on landings.? The meager late season conditions didn't allow for anything bigger than a couple of 2-3 foot drops and some berm-launches, but every time I left the ground the transition back down was noticeably incredibly smooth.? There were one or two instances where a ski caught up and hooked away during a landing in a way that I don't feel it would have on a ski with less side-cut, but I'm ready to chalk that up to pilot-error / learning curve.? There's certainly less room for error in ankle positioning than on some wider, straighter skis but I think the immense surface area under the tips and tails somewhat helps to alleviate this and helps provide that stableness as long as your feet are reasonably underneath you.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 24, 2010, 12:33:24 pm
A Letter from Dave Mazzarella that was posted on "telemarktalk" web site talking about his history ski-making.

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:06 am? ? Post subject:? ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Ski Logik is the realization of my goals as a ski maker.

As many of you know, I created ScottyBob (the company) to market ScottyBob's (the person) design. Back in 2000, I focused on it full-time. We dropped the Ski Logic name we used at first and chose ScottyBob. I spent a lot of time figuring out how to make great skis. Eventually, I selected Silverton and set up the factory there and managed it during its growth period.

As demand grew and stores wanted our skis, I made the fateful decision to outsource in China. The problems were enormous and we came out of it crippled as well as other brands who were in the same factory. Because of quality problems, we probably wound up cutting up close to 1,000 pairs of unmounted skis.

Understandably, Scotty couldn't forgive me for the mistakes of '05 and it was rough going between us after that. From then on we had different ideas as to direction of the company and this eventually led to us splitting up earlier this year.

I'm glad Scotty is still making skis in Silverton. I love the town and sense of community there, and I'd still be in Silverton if I could have supported my family there. I think it's awesome that there's a guy in Silverton named ScottyBob who'll make a pair for you. I wish Scotty well and hope you will support him by buying his skis.

People always ask me to compare Ski Logik's skis to ScottyBob's skis. I can't compare his skis to Ski Logik's skis for two reasons. First, it would be inappropriate for me to do so, and second, I honestly haven't seen a pair that he has made in several years.

On teletips, I'm forever pegged as the mass-producer of ScottyBob, although in my ten years of ski making, I've only mass-produced for one season - 3 months actually.

Ski Logik is a reaction to that mass-production experience. I realized that the workers in China were great and that the lower costs of operating in China provided the possibility to evolve and refine the concepts that were developed in Silverton.

In America, we were always pressed on costs. Then, in China, when we outsourced, we couldn't get high quality nor management's dedication.

I decided to set up my own facility in China to make the best skis possible - a factory where I could put whatever material I wanted without cost considerations - a factory where workers are encouraged to put an extra couple of hours in a pair to make it awesome.

I found a liveable city on Hainan Island called Sanya and I moved there with my family. It's a very cool place to live and a great experience for all of us. Life is an adventure and knowing different places and cultures adds another dimension to everything. I wouldn't want to live a life without that experience.

Setting up was difficult in ways I couldn't have imagined, but here we are making five unique pairs of skis a day - each pair is a part of my quixotic dream.

I know there are plenty of people who equate China with mass-production - and for good reason. The irony is that by setting up in China, I've been able to increase the amount of craftsmanship over anything that was possible before. I'm sure we're putting more manual labor in our skis than any other producer. I encourage our team to put an extra hour or two into any pair if they can make it better, and there's constant creation going on here. This approach is not financially possible in Europe or America.

We've been producing for a year now, having started with a small number of re-designed ScottyBobs last season. Now with Ski Logik, we've once again evolved our construction to put them on an alpine performance level. We did this for both alpine skiers and the many telemarkers who want alpine-level performance. We've also created some twintips that are getting great feedback and we continue our prototyping and development non-stop.

So, in a nutshell, Ski Logik grew out of ScottyBob, but it is its own separate being moving to the beat of its own drummer.


David Mazzarella
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 24, 2010, 01:54:01 pm
Ron, there are two ways to start a non carved turn. One is with tip engagemnet at the beginning usimg tipping movemenst in the feet to initially engage the skis and get them on edge and then allowing them to brush as you ask the ski to turn tighter than it's radius. This is the way I attempt to ski all the time. The other way is to slide and or pivot the skis first and then engage them after they have been pushed somewhat sideways. I agree rocker is designed to make it easier to slide the skis sideways in the very beginning of the turn. Since my aim is to avoid doing this in my skiing, it's obvious why I don't like rocker. As well the wider and straighter that the ski gets the harder it is to engage it early in the turn using tipping forces with the feet.

So it's obviosu why the widest ski that I currently ski is 98mm. Again I do think there may be a nice 110mm ski out there that would be great and fun in 2 feet plus days. Not sure if I need them.

Great review on the chariot!! Nice find and thanks for posting it. It sounds like it is exactly what I am looking for. This does look like the PMTS powder/big mountain ski.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 24, 2010, 06:46:45 pm
we will have to agree to disagree about the drift.. I will buy you a beer if you buy me one  ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 24, 2010, 10:21:56 pm
You're on!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 25, 2010, 11:46:10 am
I have to say that this buying experience has been a LOT of fun!!
I'm very glad that JBotti talked me into buying this ski.   >:D >:D

Quote from: mariella@skilogik.com
Sent: Fri 9/24/2010 11:36 PM
To: Jim Ratliff
Subject: Ski Logik


Hi Jim,

I do not want to spoil the surprise but your Elvira looks beautiful
I picked the last of the best veneer we had for her body and it really stands out nicely against the darkest veneer we have. 
I wanted also to let you know that I took the liberty of changing the color of the letters for Gandalf.  I remember you telling me that he was a good, white wizard.  So the black lettering did not feel right to me.  I changed to a veneer that is a sparkling white to match his positive spirit...it will be a little more subdued on the tails but it will merge better with the art and with his character. 

I hope you do not mind.

Mariella

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 25, 2010, 11:52:34 am
It's good that you can agree to disagree, but are you both talking about turning in the same conditions (on-piste turns?).  I have the feeling that Ron was talking about turns where you aren't in contact with a firm surface and John is??
 

Ron, there are two ways to start a non carved turn. One is with tip engagemnet at the beginning usimg tipping movemenst in the feet to initially engage the skis and get them on edge and then allowing them to brush as you ask the ski to turn tighter than it's radius. This is the way I attempt to ski all the time. The other way is to slide and or pivot the skis first and then engage them after they have been pushed somewhat sideways. I agree rocker is designed to make it easier to slide the skis sideways in the very beginning of the turn. Since my aim is to avoid doing this in my skiing, it's obvious why I don't like rocker. As well the wider and straighter that the ski gets the harder it is to engage it early in the turn using tipping forces with the feet.

So it's obviosu why the widest ski that I currently ski is 98mm. Again I do think there may be a nice 110mm ski out there that would be great and fun in 2 feet plus days. Not sure if I need them.

Great review on the chariot!! Nice find and thanks for posting it. It sounds like it is exactly what I am looking for. This does look like the PMTS powder/big mountain ski.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 25, 2010, 02:20:26 pm
not sure Jim, but yes, I am only referring to drift turns on powder or loose, soft snow or spring crud type snow.  thanks Jim.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 25, 2010, 02:49:20 pm
I am also referring to off piste turns. My move off piste is almost identical to what I do on harder snow, just with less intesnity, a softer approach. Not to preach, but that is the beauty of PMTS, one technique where ever you ski in any condition.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 25, 2010, 03:01:31 pm
then why are you tired skiing powder with wide ski's? I ski pow with fat skis with the intiation at underfoot to tip allowing the skis to drift out all day with much less effort. your method of steering the ski by tipping it first is uncessary effort use momentum, speed and countering, no need to tip the skis more than is needed.  You shoudl ski with my friend Ira to see how he drifts, effortless in the tightest trees... Just saying
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 26, 2010, 12:10:47 am
I don't think I ever said I got tired skiing powder on wide boards. I did say that tipping wide skis later in the day when one is skiing chop is more work. This is my issue with ultra wide boards. I don't need help skiing pow. In general it is effortless. It's chop, crud and bumps that make the day harder. IMO all of this is harder on wider skis, especillay if you are using tipping and attempting to get the skis on edge.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 27, 2010, 07:36:04 am
John, I assumed since you werea talking about off-piste since you referring to 108-115 wide skis. While you can ski these on the groomed, they really aren't desgined to be all day groomer skis. One thing that I don't understand is tipping a ski more than is needed only to then reduce the edge angle?


My powder ski in MT right now is the K2 Hardside which is 98mm underfoot. So the Chariot would actually be wider. I have had some skis in the 108-115mm zone (and the Lotus 138 was well 138 underfoot). I always find that these skis require a lot of work to get them on edge and at the end of the day I feel tired from tipping them. I think there is a place (for me) for a 110mm ski as a big dump powder day ski. It's still unclear if I need this in MT where the powder is so soft and fluffy. In Tahoe with heavier snow a 110mm ski is more helpful, but everything gets skied out so fast that after the first 2 hours I long to be on a much thinner wasited ski as I am skiing bumps, chop and crud.

If the Chariot is indeed a great carver and it feels like a wonderful ski, I will buy them right there. Again it comes down to TR. If I can have a ski that floats great in fresh snow but I can also use a tight sidecut to help me turn, it could be the perfect fresh snow ski. The Howitzer has tip rocker and more of it than I like. My preference is none but 30cm is quite a bit (vs 15-20cm). I think I have a much better shot at coming home with the UC's than I do the Howitzer.

Looking forward to skiing them both!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 27, 2010, 08:43:54 am
It all goes back to what I said in a previous post. There are two ways to turn a ski. One is by tipping first to engage the edges. The other is by pressuring the tails some (in a slide, drift or pivot) and then engage the edges when the ski has already changed it's course. Both can be done on piste or off piste. To carve a turn (edge locked) you cannot do the second of the above options. Having said that you can use the carving motion of tipping and getting the skis on edge to produce a non edge lock carved or a brushed carve turn.This is a great turn to use off piste and it is the turn I attemptt to use all the time in my off piste skiing. I say attempt because there are times that my skills are not good enough and I need to pivot or slide the skis to get them to turn faster. On good days I canpretty much avoid doing this. On bad days, anything can happen!!This is the off piste turn that Harald Harb uses in pretty much all conditions and it is the turn that he teaches in his books. I think it is a great turn and if one perfects it, the turn will take youu everywhere. As Harald says it is bullet proof (when one has perfected it to that degree). To do this turn properly, it require failry intense tipping forces. The tipping enables the whole ski to brush rather than pushing on the tails where the tails will pivot. There are just two different ways to get a ski to turn on a tighter arc than it's turn radius.

Again let's distinguish several different types of off piste skiing. Pure untracked powder is a distinct condition and a distinct experience. Really fat skis may actually be a slight advantge in pure untracked. But in my experience skiing pure untracked in chutes that lead to steep bowls or in glades with lots of trees, I really don't need an ultra wide or rockered board to ski it well and have fun (admitting that it might be a little easier and a little more fun on wider boards). Now when it gets tracked out and we are dealing with chop and bumps, it is a different experience and I find that wider boards require more work if you are attempting to tip the skis first rather than slide them and or pivot them. I think this makes intuitive sense because wider boards require more pressure to tip them hence more firing of the feet and ankle muscles used in tipping. I am quite happy with the comprimise, using a less wide board in untracked so that later in the day I can use tipping motions as my go to approach.


Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 27, 2010, 09:06:38 am
I totally disagree with your assertion that its either tips or tails, I don't initiate with the tail, I initate underfoot with ankles, knees using only the desired angles needed, stacked with my body movng through the turn in conjunction with a strong counter :no need to drive the tips and overtip the ski and then regulate it back to the desired angle. Hopefully gary will read this.   A wide ski requires far less tipping to realize the same effect of a narrow ski tipped; its just basic physics. Much more surface area in 3-D conditions.  Like a rudder of a ship; you can have a thin rudder and have to turn it much more to affect the turning of the ship since it has limited contact with the water or you can have a much wider rudder that will require less of an angle to have more contact with the water to have much more torque and turning power.  No need to over tip the wider rudder, its not needed; so I am not saying to ski on the tails, there just is no need to drive the tips; intiate from underfoot, since that is the strongest part of the ski and provides the most energy. Especially with powder skis where the tips are very soft (not to mentioned rockered where they little snow contact; wasted energy) and don't transmit much energy, intiating underfoot tramsits the most energy and maintains the most contact. In rockered skis the underfoot area acts as a pivot point with little Runing length in the tip/tail.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 27, 2010, 09:29:23 am
I think they are different turns, but we can agree to disagree. What matters most is that we are out having fun.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on September 27, 2010, 12:08:06 pm
Hmmm...I come to the Thanksgiving dinner table late but I find the drum sticks delectible!

Having enjoyed my JJ's at 115 underfoot and plenty of rocker, I find these just as easy to transiton to the next turn with a simple flatening of the downhill ski...which creates a passive release of the uphill ski uphill edge. Staying in the drift or love spot for as long or as short as I want with the skis flat allow me the time to feather in the edges both big toe of the down hill ski and baby toe of the uphill ski for as long or as little as I need.
Now this is not the ski of choice for skiing groomed snow. Getting most big boards over 100mm on high edge angle can be a bit trying and even work to keep them there. But that's not what I put them on for. A good example is the Icelantic Pilgrim twin tips at 90 underfoot. That ski could be put up on high edge angle like a GS ski with little effort. The Watea 94 would take me for the "wild ride" when I tried the same thing.
As my taste for different skis has evolved i find I can do what and where I want to do with my Kastle 78's. Carve it, drift it, twist it, float up right up to shin high snow. After that out come the JJ's. The JJ's work their best (like most big boards) with slight edge pressure to the 4 edges, quiet upper body, flex and extension....keepin g things working with the feet, staying stacked. It's not the kind of ski I'd even want to play with for any extended period of time at high edge angle. I've done it on groomed snow but they are not the tool to use...they love the deep, heavy, the pow, crud and soft snow they were designed for.
I must say that we all bring something different yet similar to thte table....there is no one way that's perfect so what ever works for ya is oh so good. Me,...I try to keep it simple, quiet, not use too much energy and keep that smile on my face all ski day long....hope you all are finding the same!? Best, G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 27, 2010, 12:57:14 pm
Gary, john contention is that you must either initiate from the tips first and after they engage, then drift the rest of the ski or you must use the tails an essentially pivot slip the turn; how do you/John explain this...
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on September 27, 2010, 01:24:37 pm
For me, with a hard charging carving ski on steep groomed terrain, the more forward I am in my attack position, the more my shovels will engage in the transition of the turn. So the turn happens in the feet from the toes back.

In pow or or the big boards, I ski much more out of the center of the ski....heavy shovel tip engagement in deep or broken snow is trouble (for me) cause over pressuring the the tips will just overpower the ski (tip dive- tips are the softest part of the ski)....the words subtle and soft edges with plenty of float/drift are key for me here.

What I feel in each of the above mentioned condition is the amount or lack there of, shin pressure on the front of the boot. When skiing pow or broken snow in any of my skis, I feel more centered and stacked using more deliberate and defineable pressure along the full length of the ski.

I have recently found (with some further boot adjustments) what a beautiful tool that part of the ski from the heel? to the tail can be. Truly being able to move fore and aft on the ski and watching how those movements affect the direction fo the ski has been amazing. Again, this is specific to how and what I feel....as well as some great tutaledge from some great ski coaches.

All the best, g

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 27, 2010, 01:40:58 pm
OK, one last time. First let me say that I have skied on rockered and reverse camber skis for years and I was early on this bandwagon (one that I have also jumped off of) so my experience level with rocker, reverse camber, reverse sidecut and wide boards is high. I have skied skis as wide as 138 underfoot and I have skied many skis in the 115m range underfoot.

So I will respond to this quote from Ron:
Gary, john contention is that you must either initiate from the tips first and after they engage, then drift the rest of the ski or you must use the tails an essentially pivot slip the turn; how do you/John explain this... ?

In any turn where the edges are not locked in a carve and where the turn radius of the turn is tighter than that of the ski, the ski must drift some from the arc of the ski in order for the turn to be tighter than the radius of the ski. Assuming that we agree on this (which is simple physics) I will move forward.

There are two ways to accomplish this action of the skis moving in a tigher arc that what exists on them. One is for the tails to move sideways and down the hill first, so as you are turning ?to the right the tails move further down the fall line thus making the ski more prependicular to the fallline, thus tightening the arc of the ski (to some degree the same thing is happening in a hockey stop but with much more agreessive tail pushing). In this instance the tails will move down the falline before the tips will. It works and it is a valid way to make a tighter turn arc (just not the way I want to).

I will complete this is another post becuase I tend to have problems with long posts on this forum.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 27, 2010, 02:01:45 pm
there's a 3rd...... its initating the turn from the middle of the ski and then letting the ski move sideways or on an angle, you can easily modify and regulate how deep of a drift (how much the skis come parallell to the fall line) and how much yo andle the edges. but it is done without driving the tail; although you way actually want to use the tail as part of the turn for stability or power.  Not sure why you insist this is not possible.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 27, 2010, 02:06:04 pm
So the other way is to use tipping movements versus drifting/pivoting movements. When using tipping movements combined with couteracting forces we can move the tips and tails in a more simultaneous fashiion. This cannot be accomplsihed with pivots or any tail pushing motions (pivot sips would be the prime example of the opposite of the tipped brushed carve turn). To do it properly requires agressive tipping, agressive counter and the weight has to be agressively forward on the skis. I am not talking about a gentle GS arc off piste which can be accomplshed with a little tipping and a little drifting. That arc will do nothing to help anyone control their speed. I am talking about tight brushed carved slalom turns in steep off piste terrain. These turns are hard to perfect but they are also bullet proof in difficult terrain. The problem with the other approach (again in steep terrain where tight slalom like turns are necessary to control speed off piste) is that when the tails are pushed on is out of position to start the next arc. The counter has come undone, the weight by defintion needs to be back (to push and or pivot the tails) and hence there needs to be a recovery moment or moments to get back into the proper positoion to quickly initiate the next arc.

To be clear, there can be some middle ground between the two where one is tipping some , countering some and pushing the tails some to help things out. But again I hold to my previous statement that there are only two ways to get the ski to come around faster than it's true arc or TR.

Now it looks like from reading Gary's posts that both of you are doing some of what I am talking about which is great. I will also say that to do the turn I am talking about takes most people a lot pf practice and several seaons of hard drill focused work to perfect it (which is not to say that a few elite learners can't do it faster). I think you're both going to need to come to MT so we can ski together and we can talk about all this on the mountain!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on September 27, 2010, 02:10:52 pm
"One last time" sounds so ominous... ;D Yup...it needs it's own separate post for sure.
Yes I would say I agree 100% with your statement JB about the turning radius adding....that the skis will drift in the same direction of the turn....I like this and yes...simple physics.

Ok...so pushing the tails down the mountain is not one way I would use as I believe it in itself creates ?skidding skis, with little or no control. Using the hocky stop or edge set prior or during the drift, I feel that occuring out of the center towards the tail of the ski as my hips create a sudden counter move. But again, this is with the skis moving together in the intended direction. The only times I might purposly have the ski tails below my shovels is in turns where I'm trying to bleed off some speed in some high speed turns or in the bumps to drop some speed...but in both cases, the skis are parallel and it's my center mass moving fore and aft on the skis that are the driving force on where that pressure is applied to the ski.

I almost think we are saying if not the same but very similar things John....
I hope this dialogue is helpful to others because it's taken me many years to be able to talk about what my feet, body and edges are doing and I hope that others find this helpful.
Look forward to continued sharring of information from all....g
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 27, 2010, 02:12:40 pm
Ron's Quote:
there's a 3rd...... its initating the turn from the middle of the ski and then letting the ski move sideways or on an angle, you can easily modify and regulate how deep of a drift (how much the skis come parallell to the fall line) and how much yo andle the edges. but it is done without driving the tail; although you way actually want to use the tail as part of the turn for stability or power. ?Not sure why you insist this is not possible.

You keep focusing on the idea that tipping is about the tips. It is not. Tipping occurs over the full length of the ski. I never said it could not occur from the middle, I only said that it either comes from tail pushing or tipping. When you tip the whole ski tips on edge. Now I will also asy that you can't tip properly wth your weight back (if you put pressure anywhere on the ski with the weight back the tails will move down the fall line, again simple physics), so to tip in such a way to make a quality brushed carve turn you need to be forward before and while you are tipping.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 27, 2010, 02:15:24 pm
DEAL! ?

we posted at the same time.

OK, I go back to tipping from tip as that is the improssion I get from your decription, but I am clearer on your concept and don't disagree since we are really saying very simialr things. I will still say you don't need to tip a fat ski that much in pow or broken but fully agree its not the right tool for firm groomed.

 even in tight trees, I rarely need to make a tight turn that a good use of flexon and extension can't overcome with near flat ski's. - HH actually uses this on the 2 footed release drills I beleive they are called. ?a fall-line srt is a different animal... ?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on September 27, 2010, 02:21:46 pm
Excellent explantion and I would concur on all counts....brushed turns are an effective tool to use.

Turning from the center of the ski too means to me that as I stand centered and stacked over my skis and in my frame, all the functions of my foot work tell the skis what to do. The degree of ptich, the snow conditions, my fore and afte position, how my center of mass works above the ski, all are participants in how the skis function benath me. AND all of this for me is triggered by the pole touch.

So whether the ski turn begins somewhere near the front of the ski, the center of the ski or off the back end of the ski, it's the feet, foe and aft body position and and how the center of mass is movoing into the next turn that shape the turn. If your skiing All Mountain....you for sure have of many ways you shape your turns....the turns may all start the same through a release of the edges but what happens after that is what makes the skier look fluid and smooth...ah yes....the happy skier!

Must make it to MT....gotta get us together JB! ?;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 27, 2010, 03:27:32 pm
OK, now that the three of you have it sorted it out, allow me to jump in here like I know what the heck I am talking about. (recognize that all three of you are better skiers that I am).

There are only two ways to redirect a ski.

1. Let the decambered tip of the ski lead you through the turn by tipping in that direction ---
2. Just rotate the skis into the direction you want to go.
In a different category are moves that allow a ski to drift/brush/displace sideways without actually redirecting or changing the heading of the ski.

How does a ski decamber?
1. By tipping the ski until the sidecut causes the tip to engage on a relatively firm surface.
2. In soft snow, the force of the snow in front of the ski keeps it decambered most of the time.

How does a ski rotate?
1. skidding - where the front of the ski stays relatively fixed and the tail moves down the hill (skids).(usually with edges somewhat engaged)
2. pivoting - where the edge is not engaged, and the ski can be spun on its vertical axis.
3. frudding - forward skidding, where the tail stays relatively fixed and the tips are displaced UP the hill??? ?;D

How much force is required to decamber the ski?? Depends on the sidecut and stiffness of the ski.
1. A deeper sidecut will engage earlier on a firm surface and create earlier/more decambering forces.
2. A wider ski forebody will encounter more snow resistance and create more decambering force.
3. A stiffer ski will resist both of these decambering forces.? (think race slalom or big mountain planks for doing first descents).
4. A softer ski will allow itself to be decambered more easily. (think Head iC160 or the Salomon Pocket Rocket).
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 27, 2010, 03:44:55 pm
I think we are all finally in agreement!! :D :D :D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 28, 2010, 09:12:18 am
I feel like I just built a nuclear weapon, was this about skiing????  How sterile....  Oh F' it, just get out and jump of something for crying out loud  ;D (famous quote from Shane McConkey)
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 29, 2010, 08:12:06 am

I feel like I just pounded a nail in the coffin of this thread.  I was trying to be funny and created the Reader's Digest simplified version of the Ron/JBotti/Gary thread. 

Oh well, I should have new skis to drool over next week.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 29, 2010, 08:56:04 am
Hey, if you can't ski you might as well talk about skiing!! That's what this and other like forums are for. I can pat myself on th ebcak this year because I have not gone out and bought a bunnch of new skis as I seem to do every year at this time. I did buy the Head I Speeds but some sort of cheater GS skis was already on my need list after my broter essentially stole my Progressors.

News from Lovelend is that they are making snow every night but it iis also still egtting very warm each day. We are in a heat wave on the west coast with temps in the 100's in So cal and upper 90's and into the 100's in some parts of the bay area. In another week or two, fall will truly set in.

Loooking forward to demoing the Chariots.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Philpug on September 29, 2010, 09:01:38 am
Mark my words...there are more posts in this thread, than Ski Logik will sell in units of the Chariot (126)
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 29, 2010, 09:19:11 am
Mark my words...there are more posts in this thread, than Ski Logik will sell in units of the Chariot (126)

Phil:? Does that mean we need to keep posting here so that Ski Logik has a better chance to succeed?? But seriously, I would believe that -- & Ski-Logik might consider that a big success? (I certainly consider 126 posts a rousing success for John's thread!)

Question number 2.? How many pair of skis total (all models) do you think their business model would consider "break even" and how many would make a "good year" for a 1st year startup like Ski Logik.? I was quite surprised by them saying they had to cut up 1000's of pair of skis when he was running Scotty Bob.? That was 3-4 times what I assumed a full year's production was.?

If you had to WAG a number, how many pair of Kastle's were sold last year.

Ron, do you have any idea how many pair Icelantic is now selling per year?? They have a lot more name recognition and acceptance than ski-logik.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 29, 2010, 09:33:41 am

One of JBotti's orignal assessments characterizations of the Ullr's Chariot was that it would "ski short".  What does that term mean?

--- especially when the reviews (not that many) emphasize the stability of the UC in lots of different surface conditions?  Stability is often one of the things that is gained by going to a longer ski, short turns from a shorter ski (slalom vs. gs for example).  More total surface area and therefore more float would be another thing gained from a longer ski?

I know when I rented Mojo 90's in Park City a couple of years ago, I didn't like the way they felt; they looked short because of where the bindings were mounted, but now that I think about it they didn't really feel short, they just felt unstable and not balanced right.  And I don't even remember their length.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 29, 2010, 09:53:03 am
no idea how many pairs Icelantic sells- good question

Ski's skiing short just means the perceived length is shorter than the length would dictate. Some times the stated length is longer than it really is. this is especailly true with long tapered skis or skis with a lot of rise on the rocker.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Philpug on September 29, 2010, 09:54:44 am
Mark my words...there are more posts in this thread, than Ski Logik will sell in units of the Chariot (126)

Phil:? Does that mean we need to keep posting here so that Ski Logik has a better chance to succeed?? But seriously, I would believe that -- & Ski-Logik might consider that a big success? (I certainly consider 126 posts a rousing success for John's thread!)

Question number 2.? How many pair of skis total (all models) do you think their business model would consider "break even" and how many would make a "good year" for a 1st year startup like Ski Logik.? I was quite surprised by them saying they had to cut up 1000's of pair of skis when he was running Scotty Bob.? That was 3-4 times what I assumed a full year's production was.?

If you had to WAG a number, how many pair of Kastle's were sold last year.

Ron, do you have any idea how many pair Icelantic is now selling per year?? They have a lot more name recognition and acceptance than ski-logik.

LOL, there are how many people have access to this forum? I really should have posted that Ski Logik might not sell 126 pairs total. I don't know what their nut is to crack for being profitable..let alone in the first couple of years of production.

IIRC, Kastles sold about 600 pr last year.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 29, 2010, 10:03:55 am
I think that co's like PM Gear (makers of the Bro Models) and DPS a few years ago were selling between 500 and 1000 pairs of skis total in a season. They both may be a lot bigger today, but I doubt they are selling more than 2000 pairs of skis each (I could be wrong). If we assume that that the average sale prce per ski is $800 then at 500 skis they have gross revenue of $400k and at 1000 skis they have gross revenue of $800k. Generally the big guys (head fisher Atomic Etc) have roughly 40% GM on their skis which they sell at about a 50% discount from MSRP to the dealers (PHil can help here). This implies that cost to build a $1000 retail ski is $300. These companies have economies of scale, but many manufacture in high cost areas like Europe and not China (K2 does everything in China). DPS is doing all manufacturing in China. My guess is that in China you can build a ski for $250-300 in lower volume (500-1000 units). Assuming that cost then at $800 Gross profit for every ski is $525 x 500 = 262,500 and X 1000 = $525,000. From there we can guesstimate what the other costs of the business are. My guess is that many of ?these business are around break even at 500 skis. At 1000 they make some money. I would say this is true for all the garage companies. Once they start spending more for marketing and or distribution and start adding head count, that profit can disappear quickly. My guess is that if Dave sold 1000 skis this year he would makes some decent profits and he would be quite happy. Phil may be right that if he sells 150 he may be lucky.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 29, 2010, 10:05:39 am
Wow, if Kastle with all their buzz sold only 600 pairs of skis that tells you something. Phil was that in the US or Worldwide? No way they are profitable on that. They have high manufacturing costs, superior quality control and they are not a garage company. My guess would be that they can easily double that this year. It would be interesting to know how many skis Stockli is selling per year. Tough business!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Philpug on September 29, 2010, 10:08:43 am
Wow, if Kastle with all their buzz sold only 600 pairs of skis that tells you something. Phil was that in the US or Worldwide?
I think that was US, wolrd wide was not that much more.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 29, 2010, 10:31:31 am

LOL, there are how many people have access to this forum? I really should have posted that Ski Logik might not sell 126 pairs total. I don't know what their nut is to crack for being profitable..let alone in the first couple of years of production.

IIRC, Kastles sold about 600 pr last year.

Less than 50 registered memebers, only 20 of those have been on in the last 30 days.? A small group.? I certainly assume that Peter has much larger numbers than that for his pay site.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 29, 2010, 10:32:33 am
wow! So using just 300 per pair in gross profit, that's not worth opening the doors! ?I hope they plan to sell a hell of lot more pairs.... ?Since I own 3 pairs now, i should be on the VIP list. ?;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 29, 2010, 10:36:03 am
His membership for the review site is probably a few thousand (?) plus you can view a abbreviated review site for free.? Ski Logik also did a press release highlighting the reviews here and on Freeskier. It was picked up by several mags and websites.  some threads at Epic (as posted above) and I think on TGR too.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 29, 2010, 10:50:05 am
wow! So using just 300 per pair in gross profit, that's not worth opening the doors! ?I hope they plan to sell a hell of lot more pairs.... ?Since I own 3 pairs now, i should be on the VIP list. ?;D

I'm almost certain that I saw at least 100 of those 600 pair of Kastle's at Aspen last year??? ;D ;D

Ski Logik says they produce about 5 pair of skis per day. That says that they are currently limited to 1000-1500 pair for a full year, and there is no way that they were confident enough in their skis that they have been running at "full capacity" the past 12 months to create inventory.

So if I have 1 pair of SkiLogik's then I am as much of a VIP to them as Ron is to Kastle??? Hmmm, I've exchanged multiple emails with the "President" and with their "Corporate Artist in Residence" so I guess that is the VIP treatment.? ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 29, 2010, 10:50:57 am
"Since I own 3 pairs now, i should be on the VIP list"

You may actually be their best customer!!

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 29, 2010, 10:53:27 am
"Since I own 3 pairs now, i should be on the VIP list"

You may actually be their best customer!!



Nawww.  One of his pair doesn't count!!  So he and Gary are probably tied for the "best customer" title.  Does Gary have two pair in the family or three?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 29, 2010, 11:05:22 am
Here are some industry stats from the SIA:

To suumarize a few points. Total pairs of skis sold last year including those sold as a system with bindings was 826,000 pairs. Total ski equipment sales in the US was $693m last year which includes online. Total $'s spent at resorts on skiing (which I assume includes lift tickest, rentals, food and equipment and accessory sales was $1.8b. The breakdown is below. Kastle at 600 is a non factor. It is amazing how much talk there is of their skis with the 2% of skiers that are avid!!

Total Number of Snow Sports Participants
Season Alpine Snowboarding Cross Country
2006/07 10,362,000 6,841,000 3,530,000
2007/08 10,346,000 7,159,000 3,848,000
2008/09 10,919,000 7,421,000 4,157,000
 
Source: Physical Activity Council ? SIA SnowSports Participation Report 2010 These figures represent participants who are 6+ years old and participated in a sport at least once during the 2008/09 season.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gender of Skiers and Snowboarders ? 2008/09 Season
Gender Alpine Snowboard Cross Country
Male 63.8% 70.3% 58.1%
Female 36.2% 29.7% 41.9%
 
Source: Physical Activity Council ? SIA SnowSports Participation Report 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Age of Skiers and Snowboarders ? 2008/09 Season
Age Alpine Snowboard Cross Country
6-12 9.9% 10.7% 7.3%
13-17 11.6% 21.2% 8.6%
18-24 13.1% 27.6% 11.0%
25-34 21.0% 24.8% 23.5%
35-44 17.6% 8.6% 14.8%
45-54 17.1% 5.8% 19.2%
55-64 7.4% 1.1% 9.8%
65+ 2.2% 0.2% 5.9%
 
Source: Physical Activity Council ? SIA SnowSports Participation Report 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Total Number of U.S. Skier-Visits (In Millions)
Season Northeast Southeast Midwest Rockies Pacific Total
2009/10
(preliminary) 13.3 6.1 7.8 20.1 12.4 59.7
2008-09 13.7 5.7 7.3 20.0 10.7 57.4
2007-08 14.1 5.2 8.1 21.3 11.4 60.1
2006-07 11.8 4.9 7.2 20.8 10.3 55.1
2005-06 12.5 5.8 7.8 20.8 11.9 58.8
2004-05 13.7 5.5 7.5 19.6 10.6 56.9
2003-04 12.9 5.6 7.8 18.9 11.9 57.0
2002-03 14.0 5.8 8.3 18.7 10.9 57.6
2001-02 12.2 5.0 7.0 18.1 12.1 54.4
2000-01 13.9 5.5 7.6 19.1 11.1 57.2
 
Source: National Ski Areas Association (NSAA) Kottke National End of Season Survey. The NSAA defines a skier/snowboarder visit as one person visiting a ski area for all or any part of a day or night one time. This includes full-day, half-day, night, complimentary, adult, child, season and any other ticket type that gives one the use of an area?s facility. Kottke numbers will be available from NSAA in late August 2010 for the 2009/10 season.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Products Purchased at Snow Sports Specialty Stores
Season Apparel Equipment Accessories Total
2009-10 $582,547,354 $561,816,248 $632,370,255 $1,776,733,856
  32.8% 31.6% 35.6% 100%
2008-09 $598,726,870 $523,832,218 $585,355,794 $1,707,914,882
  35.1% 30.7% 34.2% 100%
2007-08 $664,251,136 $563,733,716  $624,826,402  $1,852,811,254 
  35.8% 30.4% 33.7% 100%
2006-07 $622,598,729  $563,622,139  $586,422,337  $1,772,643,206 
  35.1% 31.8% 33% 100%
2005-06 $579,172,886  $617,690,007  $599,325,160  $1,796,188,053 
  32% 36% 32% 100%
2004-05 $546,487,808  $622,995,217  $562,564,919  $1,732,047,944 
  32% 36% 32% 100%
2003-04 $513,937,507  $641,456,028  $556,509,695  $1,711,903,230 
  30% 37% 33% 100%
2002-03 $475,820,613  $662,773,389  $569,085,259  $1,707,679,261 
  28% 39% 33% 100%
 
Source: SIA SnowTRAK - August 1 to March 31 ? 2002-03 to 2009-10

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Products Purchased Online
Season Apparel Equipment Accessories Total
2009-10 $298,729,338 $132,439,566 $166,220,158 $597,389,063
% of online market 50% 22.2% 27.8% 100%
2008-09 $278,791,332, $115,219,427 $152,503,267 $546,514,025
% of online market 51% 21% 28% 100%
2007-08 $258,847,926 $113,166,387 $119,732,372 $491,746,685
% of online market 53% 23% 24% 100%
2006-07 $189,418,120 $64,408,888 $83,635,678 $337,462,685
% of online market 56%  19%  25%  100% 
Source: SIA SnowTRAK - August 1, 2009 to March 31, 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Selected Product Sales Trends at All Snow Sports Retail Shops
Product 08-09 Season   09-10 Season   Change in Units
Adult Twin Tip Skis  (Flat Skis) 68,248 72,129 5.7%
Adult Alpine Fat (80+mm waist)  65,900 82,787 25.6%
All Alpine Skis 619,605 595,653 -3.9%
Alpine Ski Systems 226,854 231,545 2.1%
Snowboards 552,548 533,151 -3.5%
Randonee/AT Ski Equipment 20,218 22,426 10.9%
Gloves 2,873,451 2,830,632 -1.5%
Helmets 997,718 1,228,506 23.1%
Insulated Parkas 1,645,141 1,741,573 5.9%
Winter Boots 876,795 1,007,251 14.9%
Snowboard Apparel 1,739,107 1,635,620 -6.0%
Source: SIA SnowTRAK - August 1, 2009 to March 31, 2010
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 29, 2010, 11:13:59 am
Can you tell that I like facts:

This is from an interview with Icelantics CEO:

After selling roughly 2,500 skis nationwide and in 18 foreign countries last year, Anderson expects the company to move 3,500 pairs this year ? a 40 percent increase. The reason, he and other company officials said, is the passion that the uniquely designed skis are stirring, both through First Tracks and through fans who are constantly in touch with the company

That gives you some sense. Even doing 400 skis at $800 per, that is only $3m out of $700m US industry and probably a similar size in the ROW (so $1.4b annual equipment sales). 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 29, 2010, 11:26:16 am
In 2006, the last year that K2 was public, they did $421m in sales in ther ski equipment business which included K2, Volkl, Karhu and Line as well as their snowboard, snowshoe, In line skates and Nordic skis.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 29, 2010, 11:30:56 am
Last one I promise. This from Atomic in 2002:

Sales of Atomic's alpine skis in the USA in 1997 were 32,000 pairs; this winter the company is expecting to sell 135,000 pairs. Over the same period Atomic's market share has risen from 3 to 15 per cent.

Not sure how much their share has grown or shrunk since then.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 29, 2010, 11:33:00 am
Some interesting stuff.

1. I don't have the numbers, but isn't saying Kastle is a non-factor in the total market sort of like saying that Porsche is a non-factor in the total car market? ?The question should be what percentage of their "target market(s)" bought kastle skis last year. ?I would bet that its a pretty good number. ?Is that target market large enough to be a profitable ski company? ?Don't know.

2. Very interesting that Snowboards were down 3.5%, Snowboard Apparel down 6.0%, alpine skis down 3.9%, but Adult alpine 80+mm skis were up 25.4% (a big percentage change but smaller numbers).

3. So the K2/Salomon/Rossignol's of the world are selling a LOT of skis. ?And maybe that "mass appeal" ski si where Head is trying to get rather than actually selling lower volumes of good skis. ?I saw a lot of Heads in rental fleets for the first time last year, looks drawing off the super shape name.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 29, 2010, 11:40:31 am
In a market that is easily 100X the size of the ski industry, Porsche is also selling a lot more than 600 cars!! But I understand your point.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 29, 2010, 12:10:48 pm
In a market that is easily 100X the size of the ski industry, Porsche is also selling a lot more than 600 cars!! But I understand your point.
Yes, a non-fact based point, but I also assume that Porsche sells more than 60,000 cars worldwide.

I too was very surprised by Phil's Kastle numbers in light of the price acceptance by people at Aspen last year and the technical acceptance of people on Ski Forums.? I was amazed to see places with Kastle's in their rental fleet!

So Phil, was the point of your post directed at the SkiLogik product line, or your general awareness of just how difficult it is to penetrate the ski market.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Philpug on September 29, 2010, 01:14:11 pm
In a market that is easily 100X the size of the ski industry, Porsche is also selling a lot more than 600 cars!! But I understand your point.
Yes, a non-fact based point, but I also assume that Porsche sells more than 60,000 cars worldwide.

I too was very surprised by Phil's Kastle numbers in light of the price acceptance by people at Aspen last year and the technical acceptance of people on Ski Forums.? I was amazed to see places with Kastle's in their rental fleet!

So Phil, was the point of your post directed at the SkiLogik product line, or your general awareness of just how difficult it is to penetrate the ski market.

My point was a couple of fold.


* Peters reviews have very little effect on a particular ski sale as a whole, his penetration is minimal if you look at the whole industry.

* Ski Logik, while a neat product has little or no distribution, advertising or marketing program

* When i approached Ski Logik at SIA, they had no terms set up and do demo program to get into a shop.

* The Lunatic fringe that is here, Epic and TGR while talk a big game do not pay the bills of shops and manufacturers. Joe and Jane Skier still deal with the devil they know.

* Just because it is said here, does not make it so
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 29, 2010, 01:48:25 pm

Yes, absolutely agree with all of those.

Having product is one thing (and their product line is pretty narrow) -- getting/building a channel is another.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 29, 2010, 02:16:21 pm
Yes, the numbers/statistcs absolutely support everything you are saying Phil. The fact that Indies are popping up and surviving or are being acquired (Line by K2, probably no longer considered and Indy but they were) tells you a lot about the industry. I guess any iindsutry where the majority of the particpants are mediocre at best is always ripe for innovation at the equipment level. Golf was stagnant for years until Calloway came a long with the Big Bertha lines and to some degree the meteoric rise in golf WorldWide has been driven by the advances in equipment. The fact that more people can actually get into steep powder and make it down without wiping out multiple times has to be a good thing for the industry. This terrain for years was the domain of the elite.

I still beleive that quality instruction will take people further than a rockered ski, but it requires work, focus and patience. Unfortunately quality instruction is not available everywhere!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on September 30, 2010, 05:23:52 am
Well done Jim!!

150 and counting replies to your thread. Topic of the year!  ;D

I hope to see the Gandolf's  in action!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 30, 2010, 08:15:44 am
Mike:

Why thanks. It would be longer except I broke out the Dodge boots thinking people had more they wanted to discuss.? However, while I too am amazed at the legs this thread has shown, I must demur and remind everyone that JBotti was the power "behind the scenes" of this thread.

He started the thread and then, in his own Gordon Gekko wily way, he manipulated me into becoming involved as he subtly coerced me into participating in the analysis and into ultimately buying a pair of skis just so I could buy before him.? Perhaps Lynn was in cahoots on this, as she knows my penchant for overanalyzing and discussing decisions ad-nauseum (maybe thats the reason she left the country?).? Hmmmm

Go back and review, look at the numerous posts where he challenges my competitive nature ;D ;D saying things like "I'm pretty sure that I'll be buying first, but if you buy a pair let us know."? How shrewd.
Challenges to my manhood as he reminds me that "it takes more effort to get it up (on edge) with wide skis". What a challenge to a 62 year old grandfather.
And more subtle messages, such as "you can buy any ski you want Jim, even if you can't afford it".? Now we know what effect that would have on most guys and their toys.? >:D >:D


And so, in summary, I would like to say Thank You to one and all for all the fun this has been and continues to be. I am very pleased with the selection and with the interaction with SkiLogik in getting them somewhat customized for me. I like the idea of having a fairly limited production ski, one that all who have seen them seem to agree are pretty gorgeous that also (I believe) fit well with how I plan to use them.

And its all JOHN's FAULT.
And he's been pretty quiet, but I'm expecting Perry to buy a pair too.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 30, 2010, 08:19:36 am
Dave at Ski Logik I'm sure has a very different view. If he read this thread he would say 150+ posts and counting and I have only sold one pair of skis!!

It is nice that a ski can get a few people so excited. It definitely helps pass the time while we wait for some snow!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 30, 2010, 08:31:06 am
He may not have the order yet, but Peter is going to buy a pair, Perry is going to buy a pair, and you are going to buy a pair. And Ron will probably surprise us and buy a pair of Howitzers with the Indian Pipe graphics just to hang on his wall? And I took Mariella's comment about "we are very busy" to be a good thing from their point of view, even somewhat surprised.

You know, Rome was started when someone laid a single brick??

Actually, Dave ought to give us our skis for free as marketing.
I don't know if he had even heard of RealSkiers until we started talking to him, and I sent him the information about the Ski of the Year selection after Peter made it.? And SkiLogik ahs done a pretty good job of distributing that and the FreeSkier selection -- I was very surprised to see it on CNBC and Forbes. And Peter got some free advertising out of it as well, since SkiLogik is referencing RealSkiers as an authoritative ski reviewer.

And on a infrequent serious note, John, thanks for getting this whole ball rolling. I'm very excited.? It's unusual for me to be willing to pay list price, but the confluence of events was karma.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 30, 2010, 08:39:16 am
Dave at Ski Logik I'm sure has a very different view. If he read this thread he would say 150+ posts and counting and I have only sold one pair of skis!!

It is nice that a ski can get a few people so excited. It definitely helps pass the time while we wait for some snow!!

No, he would probably say "How can a bunch of guys argue/discuss how to make turns so much."? They need to just get out and do it.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 30, 2010, 09:44:47 am
Well done Jim!!

150 and counting replies to your thread. Topic of the year!? ;D

I hope to see the Gandalf's? in action!

I decided to check, so clicked on the Column heading "Replies" so that the system would sort by number of replies.

The topic on this "SKI forum" with the most activity is titled "Coffee, French Press, and Espresso"? ? ?;D :o :o ;D


Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Philpug on September 30, 2010, 10:01:47 am
If you want to have a thread about a breakthrough product. Start a thread about the Dodge ski boot. This evolution is as important as the evolution from leather to plastic.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 30, 2010, 10:38:54 am
If you want to have a thread about a breakthrough product. Start a thread about the Dodge ski boot. This evolution is as important as the evolution from leather to plastic.

I already did (I think at your suggestion after Todd posted something).? It's at the top of the list under "Boots and Boot Fitting".
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on September 30, 2010, 10:49:06 am
No howitzer for me...  if Start haus doesn't sell it, I am prohibited from buying it! ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on September 30, 2010, 11:32:13 am
On th edodge boots, I posted an article I found on them. These are going to be huge. I had forgotten about the big weight difference. Just imagine skiing with a lot less weight in your boots and having the same or actually improved performance!! We could all ski longer and better and be less tired!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Philpug on September 30, 2010, 11:44:32 am
On th edodge boots, I posted an article I found on them. These are going to be huge. I had forgotten about the big weight difference. Just imagine skiing with a lot less weight in your boots and having the same or actually improved performance!! We could all ski longer and better and be less tired!!

replied over there. As far as weight, have you lifted a WC Slalom or GS ski? I will get into a pair of Dodges to try as soon as we have another demo. We had  6-7 early prototypes at the shop and the boot IS amasing. To look at it you would never think the boot could do what it does. It is the Catterham 7 of boots.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on September 30, 2010, 01:03:36 pm
OK, now I AM impressed by your car knowledge.? ;D? I have been somewhat impressed by your (accurate in my limited opinion) ability to discriminate between Porche models and some other car examples to describe differences between skis, but pulling out the 7 shows a real depth of knowledge (again in my opinion).? I've heard and read of the Caterham but never would have been able to pull the name out of the air as a reference (I would probably have hearkened back to the early 260/289 Cobras compared to the competition of the day).
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: alkupe on October 02, 2010, 09:05:36 am
Hi everyone, thought I would solicit some advice.
I have skiied california for 15 years, and am in the new school crowd that just skis wide. I like it much better for just about all conditions. This year i am moving my skiing base to vail though.
I had 08 Gotamas, but lost them in an unfortunate accident last year. So I need replacements. I loved those gotamas, but tried the newer (rocker) ones and didn't like them as much for all mountain.
I'm not quite sure how to describe my skiing--i always go looking for off piste steeps. BUt I also like wide skis on groomers. No tired knees here. I take them long and fast with the my knees together. I think I don't angle them, just change their direction.
I read these reviews and think these skis sound great...i guess i should wait and try to demo them, but i F'in dislike demoing skis.
I guess there's not much help for me, i just have to think about it more and probably wait and demo...
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Philpug on October 02, 2010, 09:18:36 am
Hi everyone, thought I would solicit some advice.
I have skiied california for 15 years, and am in the new school crowd that just skis wide. I like it much better for just about all conditions. This year i am moving my skiing base to vail though.
I had 08 Gotamas, but lost them in an unfortunate accident last year. So I need replacements. I loved those gotamas, but tried the newer (rocker) ones and didn't like them as much for all mountain.
I'm not quite sure how to describe my skiing--i always go looking for off piste steeps. BUt I also like wide skis on groomers. No tired knees here. I take them long and fast with the my knees together. I think I don't angle them, just change their direction.
I read these reviews and think these skis sound great...i guess i should wait and try to demo them, but i F'in dislike demoing skis.
I guess there's not much help for me, i just have to think about it more and probably wait and demo...
Was it an unfortunate smelting accident?  ???
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: alkupe on October 02, 2010, 10:17:38 am
what's that mean sir
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 02, 2010, 10:37:17 am

I don't get it either, FWIW. 

Based on what you said I would think that the Ullr's Chariot isn't a very good fit.  What I hear you say is that you really want a powder ski but that you will also take it on the groomed (so the ski should be more biased to your primary terrain but needs to have traditional shape that will still work on the groomed -- no Spatulas).  More importantly, the UC has a lot of sidecut and a really tight turn radius (15m), and that likely won't play too well with the way you describe your turns (all of that sidecut may get in the way of you being able to redirect the skis, the edges might feel grabby).

Wait for Monday and some of the other guys that know a lot more about powder skis than I, but there are lots of powder skis that still do well on the groomed with an 18-20m turn radius that don't have rocker.  Also, I hear that rocker skis have gone through a lot of refinement in the past year, so may be worth demoing a rocker ski if one gets recommended.

I assumed you've looked around on eBay places for past years Gotamas?

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: alkupe on October 03, 2010, 08:07:40 am
I have looked on Ebay for older Gotamas. Scant if any.
I will try to demo some skis this year, but I always find it difficult with so many variable to tell what I like or don't like about a ski on any given day. Some days i feel larthargic or the conditions aren't good, or they're too good and I can't spend any time thinking about my skis...
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 04, 2010, 07:14:34 am
he's not looking for a powder ski, he's looking for a 110-115 ski that is soft snow centric that can be used on GS turns on groomers.  He could also look at some of the hybrid skis like a Rossi S3, Dynastar slicer, Blizz' The One. All have tip/tail rocker but enough edge for groomed. Lot sof choices. Also look at atomic blog, Dynastar huge trouble, Icelantic Nomad SFT, Volkl Katana (since you like V's) Moment Bibbys or, Belafonte's, ON3P billy goats, K2 Sidestash and a bunch others out there.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on October 04, 2010, 07:52:06 am
Just as another thought....what do you weigh alkupe?

Skiing pow like boot to knee high...your weight may be a relevant factor in determining whether 98 underfoot or 115 underfoot could do the job.

ergo..the Kastle MX98....the Watea 98.....the Line Prophet 100...etc

Plenty of great options out there....but if you focus on what the  paramerters for versatility are, where you ski, and how you ski....you might be able to solve the width delima much easier.

Best, Gary
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 04, 2010, 08:21:49 am
The best ski out there at 110m waist for railing GS turns is the Old Nordica Blower. It is now called the Girish. Originally this ski was a twin tip but they redesigned it in year 2 or three and gave it a flat tail. That is a great ski. It's stiff, it's the ultimate crud buster and it is like a tank, not necessarily great for tight turns in tight spots. But it rails GS turns. It floats OK because of its width. I think the current Girish is very similar (although they may have added rocker this year).

This was also not a strong selling ski and deals were easy to come by on this ski.

Phil may have a pair or two laying around from previous years.

The Enforcer is also a very nice ski, at 98mm under foot and also carves really well for a ski that wide. Also easy to pick up pretty cheap. May be too thin for your wants and or needs.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 04, 2010, 09:21:06 am
its a great suggestion. a bit of brute ski......
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 04, 2010, 09:44:09 am
Here are a tow other skis that come to mind. The Rossi S6 is 110m underfoot and the origian version of this did not have rocker. Deaprtment of Goods has them on sale. The 186 length has a 21.3 meter turns radius. I have nevver skied it but a friend has this ski and really likes it. It's his go to all mountain west coast ski. Quite a bit friendlier than the Girish.

Here it is for $454.
http://www.departmentofgoods.com/rossignol-s6-caballero-ski-ros0543

The other one to consder is the Watea 101. This is a very nice ski and the older version has no early rise and is a great carver. Also a reasonably friendly ski to drive. I have skied them many times and it's a wonderful mix of some excellent hard snow ability combined with width that will perform in soft snow. Also an easy ski to find on sale especially the old version that only came in the 192 length.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: alkupe on October 04, 2010, 10:10:59 am
thanks for the info people, I will look into these skis.
I am 5'11 but i'm 190 and i like working hard. Whenever I ski something shorter than about 183 I don't like it as much.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 04, 2010, 10:44:59 am
depends on the sk of course but if its rockered (tip/tail), yup, you are in the 186-190 camp for sure.  There are a ton of options-  depends- This is definetely more of the TGR post. there are about 10 I could rattle off worth taking alook. depends on if you like stiff skis, are you taking drops/airing and some other stuff. Do you like enegetic ckis, damp.... 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: G-Man on October 04, 2010, 12:06:29 pm
I'm a newbie. I agree. Peter's review and the discussion I've read here have definitely piqued my interest in Ullr's Chariot and the Ski Logic line. Great concept and beautiful design. I too am impressed with the shorter turn radius combined with the width. I live in Idaho and ski the West, but I enjoy the bumps and like a turnier ski than most of the wide rides. I'm anxious to hear from those of you who ski Ullr's Chariot. Please keep us posted.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: alkupe on October 04, 2010, 12:10:26 pm
part of my problem is that all this jargon is lost on me to some extent. I've mostly focused on my skiing, less the skis i was on. I basically skiied the pocket rockets at 185 for 5  years than the gotamas for 2 years then lost them.
I think I need to try out the rocker ski more I haven't skiied that much.
I like to get some air but i'm not in the park or doing crazy chutes. I like steep with big bumps like the face of headwall at squaw. But my favorite is sort of in bounds adventure skiing like silverado, broken arrow at squaw or the saddle at kirkwood (but not the crazy chutes). Those are my favorite runs.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 04, 2010, 03:44:33 pm
I ski Squaw all the time (I guess is should say I used to before we bought a home in MT, but I have skied the mountain a ton). The skis I mentioned are all great skis for Squaw especailly after it gets skied out. To me rocker is only fun in the pow, but not in the crud and chop and we have to be honest, at Squaw that is what you have more of the time than untracked!! Icelantic Nomad is another ski that might work well. Ron can speak to this. Sounds like you would skip the Soft version and get the original.

If you want to go rocker, look at skis that just have tip rocker and less is better IMO. Skis that fit into that category include:

K2 Hardside
K2 Sidestash
ON3P Vicik
Moment Belafonte
Fischer Watea 101 (new version)
Line Prophet 115

There are others. If I can think of them I will post them.

I personally also like a hardtail. I don't take that much air and I never land switch, so I never need a twin tip. I have never skied the Sidestash which is supposedly a wider version of the Hardside. The hardside is a great ski for Squaw, reasonably stiff, minimal rocker tip (15cm), great in crud, will ski soft bumps well and floats nicely in the pow and rails on groomers. If the sidestash is the same only wider it shoud be a great ski.  Hardsiide 98mm under foot, sidestash 108mm underfoot.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: alkupe on October 05, 2010, 10:01:55 am
thanks for the info. i agree i don't like rocker as much for my kind of skiing, or at least i didn't like last year's gotamas as much as the ones i had from a couple years before.
seems like you know what i'm going for.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 05, 2010, 10:12:48 am
Atomic Atlas might be worth a look as well. Very minimal tip rocker and a flat tail. Also a pretty stiff ski.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 05, 2010, 10:20:40 am
there a many incarnations of rockers out and the goat from last year was a bad incarnation by many: so don't judge all rockers by that.  There are a ton of skis that will fit your description

another direction is New Kung Fujas, Line Blend,

a ski that fits nicely and is not rockered is the Icelantic nomad in the SFT version or the standard version.  But see if you can get out and demo. Yuo need to kind reign in the kind and type of ski you want.  soft flex, Stiff, damp, energetic and so on. The list above is a huge mix of skis in terms of flex,s rocker and ability.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 10:42:30 am

My skis are in!!   ;D I will measure them tonight, maybe get a couple of pictures of them contrasted with the Watea 84's.  Not disappionted in my choice yet.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on October 07, 2010, 11:23:39 am
Very pretty.
She's got quite the figure ;D

Can't really see your moniker on them. Very subtle. Is it more visible in person?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 07, 2010, 11:55:16 am
Gotta' love those. Very cool looking,- did it come with a lock?  ;D

congrats and don't let gary demo those.... you know what will happen....
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 12:17:54 pm
Very pretty.
She's got quite the figure ;D

Can't really see your moniker on them. Very subtle. Is it more visible in person?

Yes, a slim but quite shapely figure.  I call her LynnZBelle 'cause she reminds me of you.!!   ;) :-* :-[
The name is subdued, but easily readable, just a function of the angle and light in the office for the picture.
It took me a bit to adjust, but I think I do like the dark veneer background better than the cherry colored background seen in the pictures.

I hope to get some pictures of them and Watea 84 side by side just to compare the height and amount of tip.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 07, 2010, 12:18:31 pm
Truly gorgeous looking skis!! More importantly we have an indie co that is delivering skis on tiime (special order skis I might add) during a period in which their skis are in big demand. They get huge grades for that. I have recounted some of the ugly stories I had with DPS and to a lesser degree with PM Gear. Kudos to Dave for his fine and timely work.

I will be skiing these in a just a few short weeks!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 12:24:30 pm
Truly gorgeous looking skis!! More importantly we have an indie co that is delivering skis on tiime (special order skis I might add) during a period in which their skis are in big demand. They get huge grades for that. I have recounted some of the ugly stories I had with DPS and to a lesser degree with PM Gear. Kudos to Dave for his fine and timely work.

I will be skiing these in a just a few short weeks!!

And that included 2 different artwork options (and the eventual name placement was a third option suggested by Ron) and two color options (light back/dark front or dark front/light back).? A pleasure to work with, and a lot more time invested than I would think profitable given the $50 cost.

Skiing them in just a few weeks huh? ???? Yeah, rub it in a little bit.? ;D ;D


Hand flex is encouraging, they don't feel at all stiff.? Certainly not as stiff as my Head iSL Chips or the Head iM77 Chips; perhaps a bit stiffer than the Wateas (less stiff than the Magnums).  But what does hand flexing really show.
Any particular pictures (angles/aspects) anyone is? curious about??
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 12:28:42 pm
Gotta' love those. Very cool looking,- did it come with a lock?? ;D

congrats and don't let gary demo those.... you know what will happen....

No lock, but it did come with a Chinese Chastity Belt.  I can't read the instructions.

Yeah, permanent yellow stains.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 07, 2010, 12:35:22 pm
the black is awesome Jim, a beautiful ski  Much congrats. Take some shots of the bases, the profile with one on the ground (flat surface) so we can see the build and then the two skis profiles pressed against each other.  Thanks!

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 12:41:28 pm
 Per the real "LZB" request.  aka Lynn ze' Bronx Belle.

And thank you again for this idea Ron.  I like the way the wrapping around the tail looks.

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Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 07, 2010, 12:44:56 pm
ya' Know Jim, all this  discussion of the LynZ'belle....  hand flexing, taking pictures and all, someone might get the wrong impression......
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 12:51:42 pm
In person it's more of a Walnut brown than a black, but hard to discern that in the pictures.

And yes, so many possible humorous innuendoes.? I'm doing my best not to get myself in trouble by letting my "base" side show through.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 07, 2010, 01:00:45 pm
OK, we'll be nice especailly with Lyn heading off to do such good things, I have to keep the good karma going! 

Looking forward to seeing more detailed pics. they really are cool
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 01:31:22 pm
OK, we'll be nice especailly with Lyn heading off to do such good things, I have to keep the good karma going!?

Looking forward to seeing more detailed pics. they really are cool

Lynn got back from Haiti this past weekend.? However, not sure she will want to post very much about the experience.?
The icons tell much of the story.? Shocked, Angry, Crying, Sad? ?  :o  >:(  :'( :(
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 07, 2010, 01:54:36 pm
"what does hand flexing really show"

I think that hand flexing will tell you a lot about stiffness. Some sksi do ski less or more stiff than they hand flex, but I find that checking the flex at the tails, in the middle and up at the tip will tell you a lot about stiffness and about how you want to ski them. I really do hope the aren't noodles. He said that this ski was designed to be stiffer and more stable than the Howitzer. Now I am really glad that I am demoing the skis. Too soft just does not work for me anymore. I find I have to alter my skiing style too much. Having said that , if they are going to carve well on hard snow (which we know that they do) they can't be that soft as they would never hold up to the forces.

Can't wait to try them. 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 07, 2010, 02:17:35 pm
I am sure it was fustrating but I have to think that she made a difference. even if it was one person it was worthwhile. I hope my comment is appropriate.


OK, we'll be nice especailly with Lyn heading off to do such good things, I have to keep the good karma going!?

Looking forward to seeing more detailed pics. they really are cool

Lynn got back from Haiti this past weekend.? However, not sure she will want to post very much about the experience.?
The icons tell much of the story.? Shocked, Angry, Crying, Sad? ?? :o? >:(? :'( :(
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 07, 2010, 02:21:34 pm
I agree and of cousre she made a difference. I guess sometimes when you realize what some people/race/nations are up against it can be demoralizing.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 07, 2010, 02:48:06 pm
we are lucky to complain about what we perceive as so terrible in this country
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 02:50:43 pm
My biggest concern was that they would be too stiff, and Exotic Skis complained that he felt they were too stiff in the waist, so realize my comments are in that context.

Definitely not noodles, But springier and livelier than I expected. Not as damp as the SS Magnums or iM78's.
Straight bending of whole ski, front quarter, tail quarter is the flex I was talking about and at this its closer to my supershape than the Watea. ?

And now, based on thinking about it, I tried to twist them torsionally and they seem really stiff that way. ?I brace the tail between my feet or knees and twist the tip. It takes a lot of effort to twist these much (stiffer this way that I remember my Watea's and maybe even stiffer than the Magnums).
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 03:00:07 pm
Lynn comes from a mindset and a peer group of truly caring about the patient. For example, they take pride in the fact that their hospital has the lowest Caesarean rate in the state of New York.? It was really difficult for her to see a group of women that had been trained by American volunteers, are now paid on an ongoing basis by the same American volunteer group, and who exhibit very little care or concern for their patients.? And then to hear someone say that "it's like that in all Haitian 'hospitals' (to use the word loosely).

Ron, don't worry about your comments.? I too think she had a positive impact, maybe not in the places she expected, but still true.

I am sure it was frustrating but I have to think that she made a difference. even if it was one person it was worthwhile. I hope my comment is appropriate.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 04:07:35 pm
And by the way, the skis came with an owners tri-fold.

Tuning Specifications:

Ski Logik produces precision instruments.? Keeping your skis tuned well will bring out the most in their performance.? For best results, take them to an excellent ski tuner in your area.? Initial Ski Logik Finishing Tune:


Ordinary Care: Wash with soap and warm water and towel dry.

Top: The natural wood veneer tops have been treated with Clear Iron (trade mark) and require no further spraying or varnish.? As with all skis, chipping may occur along the sides of the tops from collision with the edge of the other ski.? This type of wear will not affect durability and water will not damage your skis. To improve their appearance, sand nicks and scrapes until they are smooth. Sanded surfaces can be made more attractive by adding a fine layer of linseed oil or even cooking oil.

Sidewalls: Ski Logik's sidewalls are made of Black Locust wood, which is naturally waterproof and naturally rot resistant.? Treatment is not necessary as Black Locust can last for decades outside without any sealant. To restore the beauty of your sidewalls after normal weathering, sand the sidewalls by hand and apply linseed oil (flax seed oil) and let it dry overnight.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on October 07, 2010, 05:30:49 pm
After reading the last few posts, I cannot remember being as conflicted about what I want to say. Lynn's experiences, or at least a very quick summary, just dominate my thoughts. Bouncing back to skis just seems, well, so trivial after seeing the emotion icons. For the past week, my family has been dealing with the health issues of an aging 90 year old father-in-law and those icons somewhat describe my emotional state. Skiers are a very fortunate group to have the resources to do what we love.

So, Jim, there will come a day to celebrate the arrival of your new family member. Enjoy, and don't over-analyze them. Take care of important business in the mean time.

Lynn, my best thoughts go out you! Some people think of what they could have done or should have done, but you went and did it. You have the highest level of my respect.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 06:52:15 pm
Mike:?

Lynn is doing very well, by the way, given all that she has going on.? But as with your situation, she dealt with a pretty sad situation where you make the best decisions you can while at the same time knowing that there isn't much you can really do to change the outcome.!!?

My condolences to you, and especially to your wife, in the situation/decison that it sounds like you are facing.

By the way, I believe there is nothing wrong with tears, they show us what is really important to us.  I had an employee whose wife died of ovarian cancer (leaving two young children).  In my lifetime I attended their wedding and I attended her funeral.  That got to me!!  Lynn's story about a particular woman in Haiti also got to me.  Skis may come and go, but they are only things and they certainly don't evoke tears.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 08:23:25 pm
My first reaction at seeing the Ullr's Chariots and the Watea 84's together was how much wider the UC looked.? Not sure it shows in the picture, but when I put all three down on the desk they dwarfed the Watea.

Length measured at 178.9? (they are called a 178).? Watea's are 176.
I measured the running length at 1490, which is a little bit longer than the 1460 measurement that Dave gave John via email.

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Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 08:28:19 pm
Not too much difference in the tips.? In fact the Watea has a more gradual tip, may actually have more of the tip off the snow.
Big difference in the tails.

And I had forgotten that the Watea doesn't have a tip protector either.

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Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 07, 2010, 08:41:05 pm
Final attempts.? not a good picture, but lots of camber built into the ski.

And trying a closer-up of the tip.

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Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 08, 2010, 04:49:00 am
Sweet! 1st off, I love the dark walnut.

Interesting profile. I think it will be a fun ski.  Very rare that a ski measures longer than published dims.  I would like to see the ski, the camber seems to run very long in the tail, I dont know enough to say if this is good or bad, just different. A guess would be that it has a lot of energy and pop. interesting to note the Kastle mx98 in a 174 has a longer running length than both the watea and the Chariot.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 12, 2010, 10:08:01 am
Blatantly padding the reply count for this thread.


Since we have a pretty small group, I decided to activate the calendar so that people can post ski trips as they are scheduled and so others can post their intent to join in.
I took the liberty of attaching Gary's message to the February dates he mentioned as an example.
Hopefully, Perry will come out of hibernation and add his dates to the Calendar so we can find out if it works.
I also created entries for the observed Holidays, the software only handles the fixed Holidays.

Just click on the Calendar button up near the top and then navigate month to month.  If you click on the date then it will open a data entry window. This method will create a dummy thread in the Calendar forum.  You can also create a thread and then create a Calendar entry from that.  Check February for Gary's trip to see and example.  I also added the Elk demo day as a appointment.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on October 12, 2010, 11:53:35 am
JIm.....A a great looking ski....I love the dims....can't wait to hear you and JB's reviews.

I should test them....yes... >:D  g
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 12, 2010, 12:16:14 pm
Gary:

I'm not so sure that would work out.? Their advertising says that Black Locust wood is naturally resistant to moisture and rot and will survive decades without any treatment.

However, you have a certain reputation and there is no indication indicating Black Locust's resistance extends to other liquids, especially of the bodily type!!? ?>:D

By the way, Lynn and I are planning on attending Elk Mountain's demo day, which Mike says is Jan. 6/7th.  I'm bringing the UC's if you want to drive down and try them (but no taking them off the trail and into the trees)!!

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on October 12, 2010, 12:28:22 pm
Why I'm sure those many evil rumors are just that...

But they sure are purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrty looking boards.

THank you for the demo offer....I'll see how time away from home is accumulating.

Good luck with them...I'm guessing they are the perfect ski for you and well....maybe me?

Enjoy JR! g
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 16, 2010, 08:16:05 pm
Just a little UC update.? Dropped my skis off today to have the Power Rail mounted.

Win did a bit of checking for me.? Bases were flat and true, base and side bevels consistently measured at .5 degrees base and 4 degrees side. The 4 degrees side bevel may have a lot to do with the performance on hard surfaces?

Not good or bad, but appears to be a consistent tune.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 16, 2010, 08:49:17 pm
Wow, that is a very agressive tune. Even on the world cup on ice the try to avoid 4 degrees (mainly because it is slower). .5 degrees base is very agressive for a all mountain/pow ski (it is usually reserved for race skis and cheater race skis). It will be interesting so see how you like them. My guess is that you have rarely been on a .5 base. It is not very forgiving. If you flex to release and consistently fully release the old stance ski, .5 will work fine. If you get cautious and start holding onto the old downhill edge, .5 can get grabby and you may find that you are catching some edges. It is very easy to take it to .75 or 1 degree and it does not require a new base grind.

I do like a more agressive tune. One of the reasons Fischer skis feel so good when they are new is because the factory tune is 3 and 1. Head is notorious for varying tunes on different skis and often the don't ski super until I take them to 3 and 1.

Very interesting. When I see Dave I will ask him his reasoning for that tune and if it is standard on all his skis
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 18, 2010, 06:45:14 am
very unusual for sure; my understanding is a tune of that degree (pun intended) will require a lot of maintenance as the 4degrees (especailly) is very susceptible to wear.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 18, 2010, 12:21:07 pm
Yes, I was surprised by the 4 degrees. The little tri-fold owner manual says the standard tune is .7 and 1.5 degrees.  .5 or .7 isn't that much differenc, but 4 is.  By the way, he says that most of the Fischer skis that he sees are 4 degrees as well.  I don't have a guage to measure myself, but thought you might like to know.  Maybe Dave feels that is hi-carbon German steel allows the more agressive sidecut without wearing adversely?  ;D 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 18, 2010, 04:05:23 pm
I measure or have my skis measured regularly. None of my Fischers have ever come with a 4 degree side. There really is nothing wrong with it other than the fact that if you hit a pebble or rock it will take off more of the edge. It's also a lot slower as the agressive edge angle adds friction and slows down the skis (which may be a good thing for a non WC racer). It's the .5 that is so agressive and that you (and everyone) will reallly notice. Not sure why your skis have so agressive a tune if they say on the website that they are usually .75 and 1.5. I will ask Dave when I see him but you may want to call him and ask. Any shot your shop has measured incorrectly?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 18, 2010, 11:09:43 pm

Always a possibility! I will email Dave Mazz and see what he says. Might explain why Peter felt they had such good grip on icy conditions for a wide ski.   ;D

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on October 19, 2010, 08:49:00 am
Jim,
Do you do your own maintenance on the edges? Does Peter check tune prior to skiing to assure that the manufacturer spec is in compliance? I'm perplexed that the tune is so different from the posted literature. The question is do you want to ski them and evaluate them on an "as-found" basis, or, bring them back to something more moderate like the typical 1/3 tune. For sure, I would get it clarified from the manufacturer. My gut feeling is that I would like a moderate tune in my initial skiing (that's a personal opinion folks).

One the really bad days I ever had on skis was following a tune by a shop with a great reputation. I could not believe how grabby and hooky my Supershapes became. Unsafe at any speed. I took them back the same day and they were fixed and just fine the next day. In that case, I did have a baseline comparison so it was clear as to what to do.


Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on October 19, 2010, 08:53:59 am
If I may ask the stupid question..."how DO THEY measure the side and base edges....I mean, what tool does that"?

Ok...now that you guys will no doubt educate me.....my thoughts on .5 base and 4 side..

ARE YOU CRAZY ?>:D!!!

A ski that wide underfoot will probably be used more or less for crud, broken snow and pow....drifting or side slipping an outside edge with .5 and 4 degreees might be a bit touchy to say the least. Talk about trying to be soft edged and soft footed!!!

Could it be the tool for measuring your edges was out of whack....? Did you check with the manufacturers custormer service dept to see if that truly is what they install on their edges?
I mean...unless those babies are diamond tipped...wear is going to be quick and chippy!

Still....oohh....ra iling on .5 and 4 with my tuner following behind.....how sweet would that be! Ok real world now....I was told "you clazy" for 1 and 3 on my powder skis....but they are perfect for me....

So I may be all wet and discnoonected but ....I need more answers please!

Best, G ?;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 19, 2010, 09:01:16 am
gotta agree with ya' Gar'. I will take my 1:2 for soft snow skiing anyday. The 1:3 on Kastle's however has changed my thinking in regards to the "3" but unless the snow is hard, there's no need in my book for anything that will potentially grab or create undesired resistance. That includes on exposed branches, logs or grass as well.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on October 19, 2010, 09:18:39 am
Yup...I too agree Ron...1 and 2 is probably suffiicent for the big boards...just requires me to take one more tool around with me so.....

but yeah....make sense.

Still....I await to be educated on my questions....I wish to evolve!? :P? ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on October 19, 2010, 09:20:40 am
for soft snow, no need to take tools! a diamond stone is all that is needed.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 19, 2010, 11:04:53 am
Jim,
Do you do your own maintenance on the edges? Does Peter check tune prior to skiing to assure that the manufacturer spec is in compliance? I'm perplexed that the tune is so different from the posted literature. The question is do you want to ski them and evaluate them on an "as-found" basis, or, bring them back to something more moderate like the typical 1/3 tune. For sure, I would get it clarified from the manufacturer. My gut feeling is that I would like a moderate tune in my initial skiing (that's a personal opinion folks).
Nope, I'm not a hands on maintenance guy.? I have a couple of trusted shops here and there.
Don't know if Peter checks tune or not. I imagine more likely to check if the skis act funny than to check all skis ahead of time. Peter raved about performance on frozen slush, maybe this is part of why (along with the torsional stability).
I plan to ski them as is and see what I think. My other two pair are turned 1 and 3 by my choice.?
I have sent SkiLogik a message asking about the edge bevels.

Gary, I can't believe that you don't have the little tool that tells you the angles. Whether Win's was off by a degree is hard to say?
http://www.svst.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=PBM&Category=f92d171f-9ca0-4508-bb92-a2cffe71a9ce
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 19, 2010, 11:19:00 am
Maybe the maintenance of the sharper edges is mitigated by the material used in the edges?
Quote from: ski-logik
High Carbon German Steel edges with larger tabs and bonded on top across the full width so the edge will not blow out. For each ski we take one piece of steel and bend it by hand with no heat to fully wrap the tip and the tail. Handcrafting the edges this way avoids vulnerable joints and junctions.

Gary, since I see these as my all mountain skis and not a soft snow only ski. I was expecting that I would wind up getting them tuned to 1 and 3 just like all others for the past several years.? As per JB, I'm more concerned about a different release with the .5 base bevel than the 4 degree edge bevel. As far as maintenance of the edges, we are talking about a 86.5 degree net edge (assuming 4/0.5) vs. an 88 degree edge (for 1/3) vs. an 90 degree edge for the classic 1/1 tune.

I'll certainly post SkiLogik's response.  I may not be able to evolve like Gary, but maybe I can adapt.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on October 19, 2010, 12:41:23 pm
Ah...a new cool tool....thank you Jim for informing me.

I'd be curious to what Ski Logic says....

As for adapting...no sir I disagree having skied with you over th past few years...you are evolving without a doubt.

So....any snowfall their yet Jim? Are you new babies ready to go?

Ron..yes the diamond stone can do much but the guides  too for that "elperfecto accuracy"....special!

G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 21, 2010, 07:33:07 am
Dave's reply to my question about the side bevel is below. Clearly the 4 degrees (if that is what it is) is not intentional, so I would say the 4 degree measurement is even more suspect, especially after the web link that I posted for Gary indicated that just dragging the tool along the edge of the ski can mess up the calibration; and they charge $20 to recalibrate.? The fact that his ski bevel tool was just laying on the work bench makes its accuracy suspect I think.

Quote from: mazz@skilogik.com
Thanks so much for your comments on the side-edge bevel being off. I'm looking into how that happened so we can prevent it from happening again.

I responded to Dave and let him know that I wasn't even saying they were off, just curious as to whether or not 4 degrees was something Ski Logik had found worked better for wider skis.

Summary.? I will get them measured somewhere else before fully believing that they are at .5 and 4 degrees.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on October 21, 2010, 08:37:00 am
Jim...did Uncle Dave say what the factory puts on their skis?  I digress....is Uncle Dave a Ski Logik employee?

SO the ????? is.....what does the factory say they put on that specific ski?

Once you know that...either:

1) go to a shop you trust locally

2) wait till you get to a shop at a major resort and ask the locals where they would take their skis to be done.

OR

3) ship them up to me and I'll perform a complete exam and dispatch the appropropriate surgery.

G  ;)
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 21, 2010, 09:59:17 am
Jim...did Uncle Dave say what the factory puts on their skis?? I digress....is Uncle Dave a Ski Logik employee?
2) wait till you get to a shop at a major resort and ask the locals where they would take their skis to be done.

OR

3) ship them up to me and I'll perform a complete exam and dispatch the appropriate surgery.

G? ;)

Uncle Dave is the owner.? He says that the default factory tune is .7 and 1.5, beyond that it is personal preference (so I guess you can order the tune you want along with the topsheet graphics you want and the colors of veneer for the topsheet).

I do know a couple that are highly recommended by locals, Precision Ski in Frisco and another guy in Winter Park (I remember location but not name).? While their tunes may be no better than what you would do, both of them guarantee the return of the skis with no yellow stains on the topsheets.? ?;D

But the first step is gong to be to ski. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 21, 2010, 11:16:10 am
My guess is that initial measurement is wrong. Dave would be nuts to send out skis that way and he clearly he did not intend to send them out that way.

On ski shops doing tuning, my experience is that unless you have Willi Wiltz or Start Haus doing it (where we know we have race quality technicians that know much more than I do) you are better off doing it yourself (assuming you know how). I have learned a lot fropm Thor Kallerud, Harald Harb and Willi Wiltz and all that I have learned has given me the ability to see when soneone really doesn't know what they are doing. Unfortunatley it is most and often in even the most highly trafficked and reputable shops. BUYER BEWARE!! You skis may never be the same. I am very protective of my skis, and will not let just any monkey work on them. I recommend that you all take the same stance.

Jim, I am increasingly believing that the guy that measured your skis has simian roots!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on October 21, 2010, 01:30:20 pm
Ok Jim....now that makes more sense...

1 and 3 is perfect....or .7 and 1.5.....for Pete's sake....so many choices to make.

Yup what JB said...I only trust me to work on my skis and my wifes, my kids and my buds that don't mind yellow stains on their top skins...the  potential cost of tunning.

For the most part if they come with .7 and 1.5.....they'll be great on the snow in a variety of conditions...and we await that review.

I think it's very cool you get a choice on the top skins and tune...nice custom stuff....Hope the company does great business.

Best, G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 29, 2010, 02:47:12 pm

John:

I'm a bit jealous, in 7 days you'll be on the snow, riding Howitzers and Ullr's Chariots and Dodge boots and boot fitting and Raptor 150's.
Sounds like a pretty busy agenda.

Can't wait for the multiple forum posts about the various skis and boots -- but the UC's first if you please even if its not positive.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 29, 2010, 05:02:00 pm
Yeah, my focus/priority list has shifted some and the Dodge boots are now at the top of the list. I will make sure that I take out the Chariots. I have pretty much made up my mind that the Howitzer has too much rocker and I think the ski is too soft for me. I will look at them at the Ski Logik shop and if they look the way I think they do, they will be a pass for me. Definitely taking the chariots out. May take both a 188 and a 178. I will post my thoughts ASAP.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on October 30, 2010, 09:20:57 am
I would be very curious to see someone demo this ski next to the Pilgrim which is only 90mm but seems very similar in terms of performance.  Would you get the expected tradeoffs; Pilgrim slightly quicker and slightly better on the groomed but not as good off piste or do you just get a better ski with the Chariot without much tradeoff.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on October 30, 2010, 12:16:18 pm
I have a bias, and that is that you cannot ignore 10mm increments of width on the waist. Hence 70mm waisted skis feel quick, and 80mm wasited skis feel less quick. Around 88-90mm they start feeling slow and by the time you get to 100mm at the waist they start to feel like tanks from edge to edge (Of cousre if one's default move is to push on the tails none of this matters and that is why we have the Fat Ski Phenomenon!!). I always try to do slalom flushes with every ski I get on. Usualy it is right above 85mm underfoot that (at least for my skiing) the skis just don't react quick enough to do real flushes. Yes, I can move them from edge to edge as quickly as they will go, but it just isn't quick enough to call it a flush. That's why for me that 85mm waisted ski is the true sweet spot for a fun ski for all day that I can carve nicely and get some snappy quick turns out of the ski. Watea 84 has the quickness, just not stiff enough, and no real pop (very minimal kick/rebound) when you lean on the ski.

So back to your comment, I have been on neither ski (so I probably should have just not said anything) but my guess is that they will fell real different as far as qucikness. If you ride both in GS type turns mabe they will feel somewhat similar. But you would think that the Pligrim would feel an awful lot quicker edge to edge than the Chariot.

I am going to have to ski with Phil and get on the MX88. The Head Peak 88 (last years version without the soft tips) is a really nice ski, but it just isn't very quick edge to edge. If the MX88 is has similar quickness to the Watea 84 then it would be a very sweet ski. I am still not sure it can be accomplsihed, and physics and width play a big role in how easy it is to move a ski from edge to edge.

On snow a week from today and will be testing the dodge boot and the Chariot. Can you tell I am a little pumped!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on November 09, 2010, 03:24:24 pm
I'm a little bit short on time, having just gotten back from skiing the most awesome ski I have ever had the pleasure of stepping into, as well as time spent skiing two different pair of uber boots.? Perhaps more to come later, but the Ullr's Chariot is one awesome ski.? Long turns, short turns, slow turns, fast turns, all are within reach of the casual competent skier.? Obviously I didn't get much chance to demo or evaluate them in deeper snow, but if they handle deeper snow as well as they handle hard and soft groomers then this is as good a ski as represented.? I wasn't impressed enough to buy a pair on the spot, but it is still a possibility.? Sorry I don't have more detailed information, but I was really strapped for time what with the new boots and just getting used to being on the snow again.

J

Quote from: jbotti
I have bad news for all the Chariot lovers who are awaiting a review. Dave at Ski Logik never got back with me and I was not able to demo the ski. I was disappointed as I am sure Jim is. Unfortunately that was my best shot to demo the ski this season. It's unlikely that I buy a pair. Jim it is now up to you to let us all know how it skis when you get it on snow.

For me I throw this into the "things happen for a reason" category. I know I don't need that ski and perhaps I am better off without it right now. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on November 10, 2010, 01:05:22 pm
THIS POST IS ENTIRELY CRUEL AND UNUSAL PUNISHMENT TO JIM......... ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on November 10, 2010, 01:34:32 pm
Your turn Jim....get out and let um rip!

A carving wide body.....Did I detect JB's unwritten word that 101 underfoot is carveable? hmmm....
a believer he will be?  :o

Sounds like a fun ski....now find some powpow guys and let us know.

For me sounds like that 3rd ski I'd like to have but don't really need....but I sense a demo in my near future.

G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: hozel on November 10, 2010, 06:59:20 pm
Hey Gary

I found a shop in Tahoe this fall that is going to be demoing the Chariot. As soon as the snow flies I'll let you know how they ski. If all goes well, I may drag them up to Steamboat in February.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on November 10, 2010, 08:32:48 pm
I hope everyone realizes that Jim edited my post and what I originally said is in the quote at the bottom of that post. I never skied the Chariot as Dave at ski logik never got back with me. Jim just needed to hear what he wanted to hear so he made it up and posted it using me as his alter ego. Psychoanalysis anyone?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on November 10, 2010, 09:52:45 pm
JBotti
You beat me to it!
I was going to fess up for Jim in absentia.

He's off in Fla, doing a weekend retreat for skiers with deep emotional problems separating
their egos from their skis.
It's an intensive weekend with multi-modal therapeutic techniques employed to bring these
broken psyches back to a more neutral stance....er, I mean balance.

Part of the therapy also includes regression analysis  using immersion techniques to bring the adult back in touch with his inner child and then reverse it to gradually bring the patient up to a more mature plane of consciousness. His grandchildren have volunteered to help him thru the regression process.

Initial indicators that the cause of this psychological break  is skiing deprivation, which in Jim's case, was then deepened by the promise of ski reviews which were then ripped away from his anticipatory brain at a vulnerable moment.

 >:D ;D >:D ;)

L.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on November 10, 2010, 10:05:26 pm
Excellent!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on November 11, 2010, 06:41:06 am
cool, but hwy in Florida? And most importantly, no psycho-analysis would be complete without copias doses of mind atlerning drugs..... do tell????   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on November 11, 2010, 07:58:53 am
Hey Joe...would love to see those bad boys in Steamboat....look forward to it!

AND Lynn...Jim's with you I'll bet.......cause he's stated often that you provide all the Therapy he ever needs!

So did he bring his Chariots with him?  ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on November 11, 2010, 08:18:01 am
cool, but hwy in Florida? And most importantly, no psycho-analysis would be complete without copias doses of mind atlerning drugs..... do tell????? ?;D ;D ;D

AND Lynn...Jim's with you I'll bet.......cause he's stated often that you provide all the Therapy he ever needs!

So did he bring his Chariots with him?? ;D



Well Guys,
You may remember that Jim was in Vietnam. Spent most of his time there patrolling in the mountains around Da Nang (sp?).
The group would come back to the "hooch" which Jim describes as a partially underground large room with a ceiling made of sand bags.
And while our Jimmy did not actually "inhale" with purpose, there was no escaping the unrecycled air scented with the indolent sweet smell of..........

So you know, flashbacks, paranoia, ski hallucinations are all mixed up in there.

I have been trying to set him straight with quality beer and full bodied red wines.
The alternative chemical therapy appears to be working with occasional setbacks.


Alright. Jim is visiting the grandkids in Florida. No internet for him this weekend!
And he had a whole lot of fun making up Jbottis "uncharacteristic"!
 review!

Clearly, what this all highlights, is some of us just need to get on the snow.
Snowatella tonight!
L.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on November 11, 2010, 08:29:02 am
Looking at Facebook (yeah, yeah, yeah),
I realized from some entries that today is Veterans Day.

So, I would like to pause in the silliness to say THANK YOU to all who have served, whether
voluntarily or as in Jims case, because he was drafted.

At least Jim made it back and feel that what he learned, both there and while recovering in the army
hospital, made a huge difference in his life.

Lynn
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Philpug on November 12, 2010, 08:05:15 am
I'm a little bit short on time, having just gotten back from skiing the most awesome ski I have ever had the pleasure of stepping into, as well as time spent skiing two different pair of uber boots.? Perhaps more to come later, but the Ullr's Chariot is one awesome ski.? Long turns, short turns, slow turns, fast turns, all are within reach of the casual competent skier.? Obviously I didn't get much chance to demo or evaluate them in deeper snow, but if they handle deeper snow as well as they handle hard and soft groomers then this is as good a ski as represented.? I wasn't impressed enough to buy a pair on the spot, but it is still a possibility.? Sorry I don't have more detailed information, but I was really strapped for time what with the new boots and just getting used to being on the snow again.

J

[

Most awesome ski you ever skied but wasn't impressed to buy it... ???
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on November 12, 2010, 01:02:07 pm

Most awesome ski you ever skied but wasn't impressed to buy it... ???
Quote

Phil,
It was a fake review.
No skimming of this thread allowed! :D

L.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on November 29, 2010, 05:19:52 pm
So Jim,
when can we expect a real review?  Call me very curious ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on November 29, 2010, 08:13:24 pm
Our first ski day is Colorado on Dec. 9th and I've decided to take the UC's since they've had some snow.? Will try to post something that evening while Lynn is having her boots fitted.

I will say that the owner of the ski shop where I took the UC's to have bindings mounted has commented several times on what good looking and well made skis they appear to be.? Even some of his longtime suppliers and customer reps with lots of time in the business find them quite striking.? Common comment is that they look like $1200 custom skis.? Of course, that is all "hot stove" stuff in the ski shop and not on the ski slopers.

Pretty sure that you should have the longer size, not the 178's that I have.

And I would like to offer a HUGE Thank YOU to Jbotti for letting me get them on the snow before him.? ?>:D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on November 29, 2010, 08:36:19 pm
Jim, I would love to hear your thoughts. I am feeling pretty set in the 100-110mm range in my quiver. Last week I bought a pair of Icelantic Shamans off the Clymb for $349!! I already have bindings for them so it is very little out of pocket for a ski I may love. TR on the 184's is 18m, which is substantially less than the TR on other skis I ski that are less wide. Max 501 from the PMTS forum loves these skis espcially in PNW cement or Sierra cement. When I combine these with my K2 Hardsides, I feell pretty covered for almost any amount of powder. As you know I am skiing skinnier skis in pow in MT because the snow is nice and light. We will see.

I may still try to get on a pair of the Chariots later in the season. Still not sure why Dave didn't repsond to my emails on my visit in November.

Amazingly, I still have  almost half the funds in my paypal kiddy from selling a bunch of skis last year. I guess this means theroetically that I can still buy the Chariots and still have some pocket change in the account!! I would have to be wowed. I remember the last ski that Peter said was fantastic, and I bought it and it did not live up to his billing (the Kastle FX 84). I think I will stiill wait to demo the Chariots.

Looking forward to the review!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Philpug on November 30, 2010, 08:06:07 am
Jim, I would love to hear your thoughts. I am feeling pretty set in the 100-110mm range in my quiver. Last week I bought a pair of Icelantic Shamans off the Clymb for $349!! I already have bindings for them so it is very little out of pocket for a ski I may love. TR on the 184's is 18m, which is substantially less than the TR on other skis I ski that are less wide. Max 501 from the PMTS forum loves these skis espcially in PNW cement or Sierra cement. When I combine these with my K2 Hardsides, I feell pretty covered for almost any amount of powder. As you know I am skiing skinnier skis in pow in MT because the snow is nice and light. We will see.

I may still try to get on a pair of the Chariots later in the season. Still not sure why Dave didn't repsond to my emails on my visit in November.

Amazingly, I still have? almost half the funds in my paypal kiddy from selling a bunch of skis last year. I guess this means theroetically that I can still buy the Chariots and still have some pocket change in the account!! I would have to be wowed. I remember the last ski that Peter said was fantastic, and I bought it and it did not live up to his billing (the Kastle FX 84). I think I will stiill wait to demo the Chariots.

Looking forward to the review!!

In hindsight, the FX was not the ski for you, you are too big and strong for it. I do like it for its application., I want to get you on a MX88..but is the 178 too short and the 188 too long?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on November 30, 2010, 08:13:14 am
john what is your height/weight?

184 shaman is a LOT of ski, hold on tight!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on November 30, 2010, 09:28:51 am
john what is your height/weight?

184 shaman is a LOT of ski, hold on tight!

LOL at and to myself after reading the above. That's in no way a knock at Ron's comment, it's a stark realization that I'm such a noob when it comes to today's powder skis and the correct size. I don't have a clue where to begin. Somewhere in the bucket of things that need to get done is to acquire first hand knowledge. What a nice problem to have.

Need to get some powder ski OJT from Phil and Snow Hot when I visit Tahoe. I failed my first fling at Jackson last year, so, I need to try, try again.




Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on November 30, 2010, 12:28:44 pm
Phil. I w0uld ski the MX88 in the 178 length because it would not be my powder ski. The MX 98 I would definitely want in the longer size.

As for the 184 Shamans, we will see. I only knew one thing, the 173's were definitely too short especailly since this will be a deep snow ski. Length wise, I ski longer skis. If it is real stiff and burly, so be it. I am not really sure what to expect.

Looking to get to Tahoe a few times before we head to MT over the holidays. Will call and see if you are available to slip away Phil.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 07, 2010, 12:30:40 pm
Pre - review bump, b-day boy!!!!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on December 07, 2010, 01:08:58 pm
Pre - review bump, b-day boy!!!!!

WILCO Dr. Perry.  In my mind I'll be comparing them to the Watea 84's because I like that ski quite a bit.  And since you skied my Watea's that should make it easier for you to relate, even though you almost certainly want a longer UC.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on December 07, 2010, 08:00:38 pm
I am late to the party (at least on the written page)
But let me add my

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

May your new girls help you float like a butterfly!

(in the powder, but the old one will keep you on the ground otherwise. ;) :D)

(
L.

PS. These skis are just so pretty. Damn, I want a pair just to have and admire.
The workmanship is extraordinary.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 07, 2010, 08:51:29 pm
I hope that protective layer they put on them works. otherwise I am already grinding my teeth for Jim for the first time a young buck comes up behind him and starts bumping his beauties in the lift line.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on December 08, 2010, 04:26:03 am
a sharp downward blow to the collarbone will solve any issue with any one banging his boards..... ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on December 08, 2010, 08:27:01 am
No need to grind teeth on my account Dr. Perry.? I think it would be really sad if one were so enamored of the looks of their ski topsheets that they forgot that they were, after all, skis!!? My plan is to just ski them.? The looks are exceptionally nice, but the reason I bought them was the RealSkiers reveiw of them to ski.? If I wanted something to just look at, I could have bought a picture at WalMart for a lot less.? ?;D ;D

And who knows, it may be some dazzling beauty (probably Lynn) rather than some young buck skiing across my topsheets.? ?>:D


I hope that protective layer they put on them works. Otherwise I am already grinding my teeth for Jim for the first time a young buck comes up behind him and starts bumping his beauties in the lift line.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: ToddW on December 08, 2010, 01:38:52 pm
Jim,

You've got two sharp, carbide tipped ski poles -- one to defend each "Mariella" with.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 08, 2010, 02:42:25 pm
No need to grind teeth on my account Dr. Perry.? I think it would be really sad if one were so enamored of the looks of their ski topsheets that they forgot that they were, after all, skis!!? My plan is to just ski them.? The looks are exceptionally nice, but the reason I bought them was the RealSkiers reveiw of them to ski.? If I wanted something to just look at, I could have bought a picture at WalMart for a lot less.? ?;D ;D


You are wise and blessed my friend.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on December 08, 2010, 05:43:00 pm
Hey Jim, saw a pair of Urll's in the lift line yesterday....they are purtty skis!

Remember ride um hard and put um away waxed  >:D!

Look forward to your review, G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on December 09, 2010, 06:23:06 pm
A guy on the PMTS forum using the user name High Angles posted this review of the Chariot and other Ski Logik skis. Jim, I sense we are getting close to your review!!

Here are high angles comments:

I've been on the Rave, Ullr's Chariot, and the Howitzer.

The construction yields a somewhat heavy feeling ski that unfortunately doesn't end up translating into stability. I felt like all of the Ski Logiks were quite susceptible to being easily bounced around by the terrain. They don't provide that confidence inspiring "glued to mountain" kind of edge grip that I favor. There was no fresh snow the day I tested them so I can't report on anything, but their groomer performance.

Overall I felt they were competent skis, but not fantastic skis. There are many other skis I would choose long before any of these. If you would like additional detail I would be happy to provide it (I took notes during my demos, but don't have them handy at the moment).

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on December 10, 2010, 04:32:37 am
interesting, this almost mirrors the post by Noodler on Epic.  I wonder if they both demoed in WP?  snow was not good.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on December 10, 2010, 09:25:38 am
Hmmm...and I spoke to a guy at Deer Valley with a brandy new pair and new was very happy with them and then conditions that day were quite varied...

The true test....is what it does for you...

Besides....it's one beautiful looking piece of artwork!

Come on Jim....when's the first ride?

G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 10, 2010, 10:37:18 am
I suspect that Jim is too busy  ;D ;D ;D to post.  At least I hope that is the case.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on December 10, 2010, 10:54:45 am
Jim's "getting busy"!.... >:D   Nice Perry!  8)

Oh yeah Jim.....rest, snack, hydrate, POST!

 ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 10, 2010, 11:44:01 am
Skiing, with a big grin on his face  ;D with his new skis.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: ToddW on December 10, 2010, 11:17:16 pm
I skied with Jim and Lynn today.  And yes, Jim did have a smile on his face as he skied his "Mariella" skis.

Jim's laptop computer was damaged in the airport, so he won't be posting a review until he gets back home.

teaser:  Lynn declared that Mariella was a "wayward woman."

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on December 11, 2010, 01:17:06 pm
Why the dirty little heart breaker....Mariella that is!

Come on TW....what did that smile represent? Is it Lynn or Mariella? A man must choose!!!   >:D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 11, 2010, 04:21:42 pm
I think Mariella is coaxing Jim into the woods  >:D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on December 12, 2010, 03:07:47 pm
Jim's comfortable there me thinks....!

Hope his 3 some is enjoying all!   >:D ::) ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on December 12, 2010, 04:54:11 pm
Quick summary of skis.

1. I like them a lot.  Really glad that I bought them.
2. Don't feel like I have given up anything on the groomed vs. the Watea 84's.
3. They have made me a MUCH better skier in the trees and in the skied up powder.
4. In a foot to 18" of skied up powder, they are wonderful.  The Watea's would buck as I would ski across anothers trail. the UC's just ski through it.
5. In the trees they float so much better and turn so much quicker, that my role and Lynn was reversed.  i was the one wanting to visit the trees.
6. Mariella can be a bit wayward, especially the left ski.  I was skiing the right edge of a trail and suddenly she just took off to the left. As I stood up and collected myself, I realized that I was standing in 18" of soft snow right along the edge.  Undetectable from the surface, but I assume that the outside ski edge grabbed the groomed snow as I started to turn left and really took off. 
7. Obviously, they ski better with a bit of edge than trying to ski them flat.
8. They hold an edge, but it takes some effort to get to that edge (but not that much more than my Watea 84).
9. I am also a better skier in the bumps than with the Watea's.  Not sure why, but that the way it seems.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on December 12, 2010, 06:17:16 pm
Jim's comfortable there me thinks....!

Hope his 3 some is enjoying all!? ?>:D ::) ;D

Yes, I enjoyed the threesome immensely, but Mariella had to spend her nights in the car.
Lynn wouldn't let her in the condo.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on December 13, 2010, 04:38:09 am
this has been the most anticipated review of the season!  YEAH..  So where are the pictures??????

So glad you are liking them
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on December 13, 2010, 06:37:48 am
Well folks, after 19 pages, on the 273 rd post, we get the review and it's now officially a winner of a ski. ;D Good things come to a good guy who had the faith in a reviewer he trusted in selecting a ski to experience powder and trees. Only down side is now you'll be buying more DC to Denver tickets.

Once again, ya just got to get on something and experience it yourself. Peter and Jim put some skin in the game on that ski. I'm looking forward to the reviews as the season progresses. I'd love to do a demo, that list just keeps getting longer.  HMM, does bumps, pow, trees.....when does Ron jump on board?

I must have missed it but what happened to Elvira?

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 13, 2010, 07:28:52 am
Add it to my list of need to demo, thx Jim
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on December 13, 2010, 12:17:26 pm
Congrats Jim on many counts....1st being able to keep that other lady in the car...overnight.... in the cold....I mean...udaman

2nd.....what vitamins are you taking?

Finally....so happy the skis brought out the best skier in you.....technology can do that!

Best, G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 13, 2010, 09:31:26 pm
Jim, I am currious about what the ski feels like with respect to length.  There has been a lot of speculation about running length and how these may feel.  What's your take?  How stable at speed?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on December 13, 2010, 10:14:29 pm
A little bit more detail, now that I'm back and have Internet access again.

Powder:? In powder I've always struggled with balance in all dimensions. Fore and aft, laterally in getting equal pressure on each foot, and especially when skiing unbroken snow and crossing anothers trail.? We skied Game Creek Bowl at Vail (blues on one side, blacks on the other) after 14" the night before and about 40" for the week, and it had been windy so some places I couldn't find bottom with my poles and others were a bit windswept.? I was SO surprised by the UC's in this arena.? It was almost like skiing on a groomed surface.? No balance problems, no changes in speed as I would cross another's ski trail, and I could just tip and turn.? Absolutely amazed at "how good a skier I'd become."? And this is one of the reasons that my review is more focused on the effect on me as the skier rather than the ski itself.? I don't know what about the ski creates it, but in the conditions I was most wanting to improve it was just awesome.

An example.? There was a 3' snow shelf/drift that the wind had created in the lee of a bush (black trail) and I was across the hill from it.? Initially I assumed there was probably a buried log under it until I saw another skier go over it.? So I got my courage up and decided to ski into the shelf from below it, fully expecting to stuff myself into the snow.? It was a piece of cake! I built up some speed as I crossed under it, and just skied into the bottom of the shelf.? I went up the shelf, made a left turn, and skied back off the shelf.? No balance issues, no stability issues, just a little bit of adjustment as the ski tilted up and powered through the snow.? And there wasn't even any sense of suddenly slowing down or anything.? Just as smooth and supple as could be.

I found the same behavior later in the trees.? When Lynn and I ski the trees, there are usually lines already packed down through the trees.? Due to my desire not to ski all that fast, I would usually like to make bigger and more turns than the existing lines, but skiing across an other's line has the same problem as in powder, acceleration as you come out of the powder followed by a deceleration as you cross the packed snow and back into powder.? The Ullr's Chariots eliminated this - more consistent speed and no acceleration/deceleration. It's difficult to explain how smooth and supple the ride is, and how much easier it is to make the turns from atop the snow. It's also hard to believe how much faster I was skiing in both chopped up powder and trees.

Similarly, I did bumps astoundingly better. I don't really have a bump technique other than not to go too fast. I drift down some, I turn in the troughs some, I turn on the top of the bump some. In the past I would often take a wild pony ride across the hill while I get the speed under control. With the UC's, I got to the bottom of the hill faster with MUCH more control (and I haven't the foggiest idea why). And a couple of these were on near 30 degree slopes on the front face at Vail that were pretty intimidating.? This was probably the first time that I was EVER able to consistently make better progress on a bump slope than Lynn and stay under control (and that's not the result of any change in my skier skill).

The biggest negative that I noted was a tendency to have my weight on the inside foot. I think I get lazy and initiate the turn with my feet and then counter with my body as I drop more into the fall line. That works with the SuperShapes, with the UC's I found myself inside ski heavy every now and again, and I started trying to pay more attention to getting more weight over the outside ski at turn initiation. The recovery, however, was easy.? Just relax the inside leg and extend the outside leg and the skis come back together. (just like at camp).

Comments about the skis. They definitely don't feel stiff when on the snow. The words I would use are probably "supple but always in contact with the snow". They have considerable camber built in, so I guess that just flattening them on the snow loads the tip and tail. Even at 20 mph or more (enough that I was at the upper edge of my comfort zone) on trails that were covered in texture from having the powder skied off all day, they always stayed in touch with the snow and never deflected or did anything other than just track true even though it was a pretty bumpy ride. The Watea 84's would not have handled this terrain (and I wouldn't normally try to ski that kind of snow that fast). I never had any concerns with stability or wanting more length. Never felt any deflection in ski when skiing crud or hitting piles of powder, no matter whether I hit it while turning or just coasting over the top of it.?

I was skiing them one notch forward on the Power Rails, will play around with that some to see where I like them. Obviously, you have to be comfortable with a lot of sidecut. The Ullr's Chariots have 44mm difference between tip and waist (145-101-xxx) and while that's less than the 51mm on my SuperShape Magnums (122-71-xxx) its still a small turn radius. It worked very well for me.

Overall. I wanted a ski that would be a one ski quiver for western skiing, but never in my wildest dreams did I think one ski would make me that much better in so many different ways and terrain.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on December 13, 2010, 10:51:25 pm

I must have missed it but what happened to Elvira?


I don't really like the name Elvira because of the association of the late night television hostess.
Lynn wouldn't let me call them Lynn-Ze-Belle's, so I decided to call them "Mariella's" which is the name of the Ski Logik art director.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 14, 2010, 11:13:51 am
Jim, from what I am reading, I am not sure I would want or need to go up in length.
What say you.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on December 14, 2010, 12:33:05 pm
Technology is a beautiful thing Jim. Glad you found yourself so much more comfortable with the off piste type conditions. Makes skiing the whole mountain a dream.

Happy glades!

G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on December 14, 2010, 12:42:15 pm
Jim, from what I am reading, I am not sure I would want or need to go up in length.
What say you.

Dr. Perry:? I would say that in spite of our concerns about the "running length" it never felt like a shorter ski and in fact felt more stable than the similar length Watea 84 (that you skied last year). ?However, if I remember correctly, at Aspen you said you would probably prefer the Wateas at a longer length -- if that memory is true then you should do the same with the UC. ?My personal opinion is that the UC's are so stable that you could ski the 178's and be fine and give up some flotation, but I'm a bit hesitant to have someone else spend THEIR money based on MY "personal opinion" at a time when I'm still glowing from the recent experience (but we did get a very diverse set of snow and terrain in during the 4 days).

My Super Shapes, Watea 84s and UC's are all in the same 175-179 range and that feels right for me. ?By the way, I actually think that, on groomed slopes, the UC's feel a lot like my SuperShapes (except requiring more effort at tipping them).
((EDITED at 5:29.? MY Super Shapes are 170's, not 177))

And I miight ask what the disadvantage/cost of going with the longer length would be? ?What is the length of your Super Shapes, and do you think that is the right length for you? ?Certainly wouldn't hurt to email your height and weight to Ski Logik and ask their opinion.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 14, 2010, 01:58:42 pm
My SS magnum is 177 and that is perfect for that ski for me.  The ski logik jumps up to 186 or 188 I think.  I just haven't skied one that length but that is because I am conservative, and only started skiing several years ago and I make my skis last 3-5 years.  I will test something in that length this year and that will help me figure out if that "feels right".  I agree, the big difference would be additional float (a tip at 150cm) but I wonder if that would cause bump performance to diminish. The jump in float from my SS Mag would be pretty significant staying at 178 :o
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on December 14, 2010, 02:43:38 pm
Perry, when choosing length a lot depends on how you ski and how you will ski a certain ski. My experience with skis that I will most use offpiste and in fresh snow is that when I go too short, I have added maneuverability but the give up is a speed limit. In skiing steeps, in some biiger bowls etc, I really like to have a longer ski because I feel so much more comfortable going faster (that's also why I like a bit stiffer ski). But that is me. The real question is about you. If you never open up a ski (at higher speeds off psite) and if you will be skiing it a lot in trees and in tighter places, you will never notice the potential speed limit.

The rule of thumb is always about height and weight and of the two weight is more important. But there are guys that are 5 9" 160 lbs that rip so hard that they need stiff long skis. As well an intermediate skier that is 6 3" 230 lbs may be much better served with a shorter and softer ski.

As has been said so many times about choosing a ski, the same holds for choosing a length. Nothing is ever perfect, there are give ups in both directions. I always ask first, what will I use the ski for, how will I ski it, under what conditions, in what terrain and then I try to assess what the right length is for that ski based upon answering those questions about me. Unlike the common response on Epic where someone will say that ski is too short for you etc based upon weight and hieght, there really is no wrong answer. The two lengths will ski and feel different. The real question is how will you use them and in what conditions and terrain.

I have never skied with you, and maybe Jim has. But you can certainly answer the questions and then choosing the length should be much easier.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on December 14, 2010, 03:16:23 pm
Perry:? ((EDITED at 5:29 EST))

I thought your SuperShapes were longer.? In that case I think the 178 UC would be fine, but the extra float would be ten more mm of that 101mm waist more so than the extra tip or tail.? FWIW, I'm 5'11" and 188 lbs.

And I agree with what John says, but they did feel very stable at speed on the groomed.? I'm not that fast on powder, so in three years I may want a longer ski.? At no time did I worry that I could cause the tips to dive by leaning on the front of the boot too much or anything, and I attributed that to the 145mm tip, which is a tip commeasurate with a 115-120mm waisted powder ski.?In fact, the amazing reality was that it took about 10 seconds and all of my prior frustrations with balance and powder skiing were gone, the skis just made it that easy.

Actually, I never "open it up" enough anywhere that I think falling would be major trauma or more than a 20 foot slide.

By the way, I really like the setup of the Power Rails.? One lever releases the toe, another lever releases the heel, no external connector between the two, and no need to ever take the bindings off the rail (except to move them to another pair of skis).? Move toe and heel forward or backward in equal amounts up to the limits of the binding, so a total of a lot more than 1.5cm each way.

John:? As you can tell, I don't know if the UC's were the right ski for what you wanted, but I am really happy.? The inside of my ankles noted the extra pressure by the end of the day but just as an awareness and not a pain.? They do need a little bit of speed to really carve (and a skier with good technique), but that was the only part of skiing where they gave the feeling of a stiff ski.? Initially and at slower speeds I was using more pressure against the boot tongue. In the softer snow, it was never a consideration (because more of the ski edge is already in the snow wheen tipped)?

Perry:? I was wrong, my SuperShapes are 170's and I think you should go with the longer UC just as I think you should be on a mid 180's Watea 84 or similar ski..?

Sorry for the mess-up.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on December 14, 2010, 03:54:17 pm
John, I agree 100% which is what make choosing difficult.  The best of all rules is demo before you buy.  With the UC, that seems to be a luxury.  I am going to contact them and see if I can hook up a pair to demo when in Steamboat.  I also want to try the S3, the Blizzard ONE and perhaps the Sultan and the Watea 98.  Wonderful to have so many choices.

Jim,
I agree with you as well, until I ski a 188, I have to admit that the concept seems pretty different.  I will definitely try before I buy.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on December 14, 2010, 06:27:34 pm
I will also say that getting a sense of the Blizzard Fischer and Dynastar skis via reviews is much easier. Indie skis are different. Take it from someone that has bought many pairs and sold a few pairs as well. It seems that the holy grail on TGR for pow and big mountain skis is lightness. Hence all the indie co's are using fiberglass, CF and other light but stable materials. This may produce a very light ski, but they feel very different than skis that the big co's make especially the ones with metal in them. I can say that many of the skis I have bought were too light and lacked the beef and meat that I want in a big mountain ski.

My only point is that the Chariot is a different ski than the others you mention. It will ski and feel differently that many other skis. I would go out of your way to demo it. You may love the TR, it's edge hold and carving ability, but youy may hate the way it skis chop and crud at speed (just as an example). The other skis on your list you can almost buy from reviews, because they are known commodities and they use materials that you have skied before. Just my $.02.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on December 15, 2010, 08:11:48 am
John:

I would disagree with putting the UC in the same category with the other "Indie" skis that are designed as "lightweights".? I didn't find it to feel much different than my Head iM78 or SuperShapes and more substantial feeling than the Watea 84.?

However, I agree that Perry should go out of his way to demo.? ?;D?
He skied my Watea's at Aspen last year and loved those, wait until he gets on a pair of UC Healers.
But 101 is a wide waist, and that's the real reason he should demo even more so than the length.

Perry: Part of John's analysis is also where you ski.? In my case that involves a lot of who I ski with, because Lynn is better than me in crud and powder and trees and we are always headed there, and she is floating her 120 lbs on 84mm waisted skis already.? If I didn't expect to spend 1/2 of my time off piste then I would have seriously considered a 90 mm waist (or probably just stayed with the 84's).
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on December 15, 2010, 01:12:25 pm
Guys, I think it's critical to focus on where and what kind of terrain you are looking to ski that 100 underfoot ski.
Me for example wanted a versatile powder ski that could take me from front side to back side with good float, carveable, forgiving, and compliant.
Not having skied the Chariot it's dimensions FOR ME might make it like a 50/50 ski...50 front side 50 back...It really was a ski I was considering for my quiver. But I did my math and tried to determine based on the characteristics in design and reviews....would this fit my needs for my 2ND ski.
After doing the math and looking at a bunch of skis in the 100 underfoot category adding in my love for my Kastle 78's, the S3 would be more like 70% back side and 30% front side ski.
The S3 with rocker tip and tail, and the pin tail type design, is very playful in powder, very easy to release out of the tail and a blast to ski flat and drift with.
It's critical to understand by demo, reviews, and a general understanding of a ski's profile, construction and stat's, if that ski fit's into the slot you wish to fill with a new ski.
At least that's how I approached it.? Best, G




Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on January 08, 2011, 11:39:39 am
What kind of person is Jim Ratliff ? He Sherpa?d two pair of skis to the Elk Mountain Demo Day so that I could demo the Chariots, adjusted them for my boots, and was willing to leave them in the snow while we all demo?s other skis. Ok, you may say he?s a little crazy, but, I say he?s a great guy.

My first runs on the Chariots were in 3-5 inches of new snow on groomer warm-up runs with moderate speeds. Sure, it?s hero snow or ego powder but they kept me smiling. I was thinking, damn, Peter Kelty knows his skis. The narrow turning radius lets them be turned with minimum input in a nice arc shape. The feeling is more of a plush ski, not stiff, not demanding, stable. I did some tight, linked, brushed turns trying to simulate tree skiing in powder and they performed well. My area of concern was when I put more input into the skis with tipping movements, they are slow to edge and did not grip and come to life.

For the next several runs, we all demo?d other skis and moved to black diamond trails to ski the varied conditions of ice, hardpack and loose powder that was Elk that day. I needed to get back on the Chariots and put them to a better test.

On the pre-lunch run, put them back on and did an aggressive black diamond run. They continued to fight responding to tipping movements and seemed to ski better just letting them turn more on their own. It was hard to find a rhythm in those conditions, but, where I could keep them in looser fresh snow, they did their thing. My sense was that with some more time and softer snow, I?d figure out how to ?not fight? with them. Its hard to stifle Harbian technique in me. Did not test them at high end speeds.

To be fair, they were not in soft snow conditions for which they were designed. Plus, I?m out of my pay-grade reviewing powder skis. Just musing, but, I?m thinking that for a skier who does not put a lot of input into skis, the Chariots may facilitate powder skiing with the low turn radius. Less edge angle can be a good thing. I wish that I had them in Jackson Hole last year when I demo?s a stiff Salomon powder ski and just did not enjoy the experience.

Someday I hope to again be with Jim on the right mountain and right snow. I?d have to be pretty persuasive to talk him out of using them, but, I like to see what they can do on an extended basis. They make Jim smile and ski pow and trees with Lynn. That?s what counts.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on January 09, 2011, 09:13:51 pm
Mike:? Welllll, in the interest of FULL DISCLOSURE I have to say that Lynn actually schlepped the skis from the car to the lodge.?

And thanks for sharing the ski day, it was nice to meet you and share one of the better Elk skiing days I have ever lucked into.? (although it is always better than the local hills here in Virginia/southern Pa).
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on January 26, 2011, 09:26:24 am
Ski Logik update.

Lynn and I took our skis in to Frisco Ski and Golf (had been recommended to us) to get skis tuned and to satisfy my curiosity about the initial tune of my Ullr's Chariots.? The guy in Pennsylvania was wrong, the factory tune was as advertised at .7 and 1.5 and the bases were flat.  Frisco Ski and Golf recommended .7 and 2 for the edge, said that is what they had retuned all of the Ski Logik's at and further said that they believe .7 (or even .5) allows you to get to the edges on wide skis more easily without having any of the disadvantages that such a shallow base bevel might have on narrower skis.

However, as it turned out, Ski Logik had just dropped off their fleet for the upcoming SIA show in Denver, so we got to see a lot of the topsheets and yes, Perry, the tiger is awesome, but so is the Black Widow.? Lynn said she still thinks my Mariella's are right at the top.?However, the prettiest topsheet is the one Jeannie Thoren designed and carries in her store at Vail.  They are really positive on the skis, said they have been very well received (I think the actual quote was "they are very nice looking skis but they are excellent on the snow as well.")  Lynn is longing for an Edelweiss done in wood.

Ski Logik has a few new models for next year, including a front side ski and what might be a telemark specific ski (strange beveling of the top, sort of along the lines of the Scotty Bob skis)..? They didn't have dimensions visible, but will be interesting to hear more in the fall.

Anyway, still loving my skis.? Summit had a total of about 4 feet last week with 10" of that after we got here Friday night.? We spent two days in the back bowls and Blue Sky basin at Vail skiing mostly chopped up powder interspersed with sections of untracked. and I am still lovin my skis; I even let her talk me into taking the Poma up into Mongolia bowl just so we could say we had been from one end to the other.? Lynn and I have been spending the first hour each day working on fundamentals, and Lynn says she can even see my footwork getting better.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on January 26, 2011, 10:48:32 am
Sounds great.  I think doing the one hour a day makes sense.  I did some "slow form turning" with my wife at Snowshoe and it helped my skiing.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on January 26, 2011, 11:03:24 am
even on powder Am's?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on January 26, 2011, 12:15:29 pm
GOD gives special dispensatoins from doing 1 hour drills on boot high snow and above!

Pointum, floatum bounceum, tipum...and? ;D

Jim...so glad you're still enjoying your new Chariots.....Intere sting combo on the edges...would have thought a .5 a little much for the base....but hey, I'm sure that's all figured into the overall ski design.

Happy you guys are getting some great snow to enoy....best, g
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Ron on January 26, 2011, 12:42:56 pm
but your boot high ranges from about 2" to 6".........
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on January 26, 2011, 01:13:33 pm
ooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooo >:(

and there...so no drills for me in 2" of freshies!

Maybe I should have just said...if it's fresh.......it's a no drill day and don't let Ron steal your lines...ya gotta fake him out.....look left but go right!    ;D

 
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: ToddW on January 26, 2011, 03:28:22 pm
even on powder Am's?

Ron, you must have an impure mind to even think such horrid thoughts? ;)? I'm the drill king, but even I know that all of those drills are simply preparation for powder morning bliss.? Lynn and Jim are real skiers and would never insult Ullr by rejecting his gift of powder ... unless that wayward Mariella has been whispering nonsense into Jim's ear? :o
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jbotti on January 26, 2011, 04:27:21 pm
There is a ridge at my home mountain in MT. At the top of the ridge it averages around 45 degrees. Chutes are pretty much the only way into the ridge. I have always been a charge now kind of guy on Powder Days. I will tell you that skiing that ridge is a lot more fun after getting warmed up and reacquainting my body with the proper movements. It really is amazing the difference that it makes and I find I can stay out longer and ski better because I have not used so much energy in my first two runs on double black terrain trying to find my form. In Montana the crowds are light. At Squaw if you want any untracked you better charge hard and fast immediately. For me ideally two warm up runs on less steeep terrain is ideal before hitting the steeps (and this can be in less steep powder which is still fun). But when in Rome (Squaw) I charge hard from the get go!!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on January 26, 2011, 08:47:53 pm
even on powder Am's?

From Lynn on Jim's computer in Dillon, Co

Yes, BECAUSE the parking situation at Vail is not aimed at the day skier.
So rather than clomp along 1/8 of a mile in ski boots, carrying skis etc, we ride the gondola
to top of the moutain and change there.

The downside of this is that it takes many trails to get to the back bowls to access the powder.
SO WE USED THOSE TRAILS to warm up and practice? some technique.


Which I was really feeling the need for. Something was "off" in? my skiing and I was trying to figure it out.
MY mojo was lacking. The drills helped.

Having a a half day with HH today helped even more. Gee, he is so precise in his eye and able to pinpoint what the issue is and what the solution is.

Looking forward to more powder and crud days. The snow gods have been good. Jim's Ullrs are amazing. Beautiful and he skis them well. Able to handle easily, terrain which challenged him much more in the past. AND he is able to work technique with these wide boards. Seeing that in action has been inspiring.
d cr

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on January 27, 2011, 08:02:12 am
Hey Lynn....sounds like you're having a great time....plenty of snow to play in I'm sure.

So glad Jim has hit a homerun with his new skis.....it sounds like the new gear is certainly improving his ability to take on more terrain. Very cool how that works.

Did Harold try to take them off Jims feet and give them a go?

One of my favorite warm up drills or on mountain drills is I love playing on snow ridges ..Harold has a great drill that focuses on keeping the skis connected to the snow...it's one of my favorite drill for skiing all mounain conditions. Another I like and a primary tool from John Clendenin is scraping in the uphill ski and re-centering on that ski....resulting in the use of all four edges. I would certainly agree waking up the mind and the feet before getting serious on the snow for the day is very wise.

Best, g
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on January 27, 2011, 08:54:46 am
From Lynn on Jim's cmptr

No Gary, Jim hid in the trees with his fatties when HH was around >:D

Actually, Diana expressed an interest in demo'ing, but they are mid-camp this week.
I was lucky any instructor was willing to do a half day after camp. As you know, they are busy
doing alignment sessions post camp, making the insoles etc.

I thought maybe I had too much canting one one boot. Turns out it was the skier who had issues. ;) ;D

Lynn
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on January 27, 2011, 01:22:01 pm
Hah....hidding in the trees.....funny.... .but I could see Diana or Harold rippn' around with those beauties.

So you thought one day you were overcanted and found out all is good...gesh...so much to think about....

What I think is cool Lynn is that you are paying attention to your feet...kudo's...."life begins there!"? ?:o

See...I can be deeply esoteric!? 8)
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: ToddW on January 27, 2011, 04:11:40 pm
Having a a half day with HH today helped even more. Gee, he is so precise in his eye and able to pinpoint what the issue is and what the solution is.


So what did his eye pinpoint and how did y'all solve it?  Inquiring minds want to know...

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on January 27, 2011, 09:05:04 pm
Having a a half day with HH today helped even more. Gee, he is so precise in his eye and able to pinpoint what the issue is and what the solution is.


So what did his eye pinpoint and how did y'all solve it?  Inquiring minds want to know...


I typed up an attempt to explain, but I think the visual with the explanation in person next weekend will be MUCH better.
So, I will definitely show you the physical cue HH gave me which helped unlock (for me) a long held missing piece of the ski equation.  The drill I did with him is an exaggeration of the movement and once I got the physical sensation of what I needed to be doing, I was able to stop doing the "drill" and begin  to make it part of my skiing.

What I experienced today was WAY more control on steeps with no need for emergency type stops to slow my speed.

Looking forward to next weekend in  Vermont and skiing with you again.
Jim sends his appreciation of your sense of humor; Mariela sends you her regards ;)

SHE is sleeping in the car tonight! >:D


Lynn ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on January 28, 2011, 01:08:15 pm
Lynn....hey, how come he gets to see you unlock a missing piece and we don't? And what's up with that physical sensation the rest of us won't be able to see...I mean come on.... :-\

Sure Todd get's all the juicy stuff and what are we...chopped liver????

Lynn....you are our token female ski goddess....please be kind to your minions... >:D


g
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: ToddW on January 28, 2011, 03:52:55 pm

Lynn....hey, how come he gets to see you unlock a missing piece and we don't? And what's up with that physical sensation the rest of us won't be able to see...I mean come on.... :-\

Sure Todd get's all the juicy stuff and what are we...chopped liver????


? ;D? ;D? ;D


Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: ToddW on January 28, 2011, 08:27:05 pm
Shortly after posting those smug smiles, I got in my car to drive up to Vermont for the weekend.? I think someone mentioned karma in another thread recently.? Well, I met up with mine ... lots of dashboard warning lights and no skiiing this weekend.? Or did I?? Gary, I gotta ask if you have psychokinesis or some other flavor of ESP.? That might explain certain previous posts?? :o? If so, I humbly beg your forgiveness and will wax your topsheets whenever you desire.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Perry on January 28, 2011, 08:32:08 pm
Todd,
Hate to hear about the car setback.  Hope you get a fast and inexpensive fix.  I know you got in a lot of days early in the season when the snow was falling. So it all evens out so to speak.  According to my Karma-meter, gloating is acceptable on this board. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: midwif on January 28, 2011, 08:47:33 pm
Lynn....hey, how come he gets to see you unlock a missing piece and we don't? And what's up with that physical sensation the rest of us won't be able to see...I mean come on.... :-\

Sure Todd get's all the juicy stuff and what are we...chopped liver????

Lynn....you are our token female ski goddess....please be kind to your minions... >:D


g

Gary

You too were invited to the Northeast PMTS meet up happening next weekend at Sugarbush!
That's where all the cool stuff will happen. And all kinds of "juicy" info will be passed on.
Oooh, that sounds on the edge of......
 >:D :D >:D
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: SnowHot on January 28, 2011, 10:47:56 pm
Just an FYI on the Ski Logic booth at SIA
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1385.snc4/163744_10150387615335018_830505017_16673234_3937114_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: Gary on January 29, 2011, 06:55:38 am
Todd...what kind of ski man are you....DITCH THE CAR, HITCH A RIDE!!!!..

Lynn's showing stuff....plus all that juicy PMTS stuff...

Hey Lynn...I would love to make one of those events....guy get away with 6 buds at Holiday Valley and then Steamboat next Sunday...oh boy...such a difficult schedule.

Wishing you great snow at the "bush" and Todd....Todd...Todd .....don't make me ask what you're driving?

I can look your vehicle up in my Karmaprognasticator ....but maybe that's an expense you just don't want to incur ski season...OR maybe it is? >:D

Snow Hot...nice skins and plug for RS!!!

Have a fun filled ski weekend all...and Todd...feel our tears...hey...your car broke down...gesh...so lame... >:D.? can't you take your wifes car, you buddies, your mom and dads...

Oh well...your just going to have to wait to see Lynns juicy tidbits another time! Sorry Jim...she offered!!! ::)

G
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on March 11, 2011, 06:04:46 pm
Lynn and I stopped at Jeannie Thoren's shop in Vail so Lynn could demo a Ski Logik and a Head Power One. Jeannie raved about the Ski Logik. She has designed her own artwork, stocks that model in the store and has sold 18 pair this year, and feels that the price is likely to go up and that popularity is going to explode. Anyway, the main point is her initial experience that sold her on the ski. She was skiing Riva's Ridge on a day when it was so icy it reminded her of a water injected race course. She could not believe that a ski so wide could hold on that slope, and also do soft snow and crud as well!
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: SCSA on March 12, 2011, 09:29:56 am
SkiLogik is a kick ass company. It's the little secret around here, at Aspen and Vail. I'm new to the forum, I'll post my own review about it as soon as I can.

I have the SkiLogik Rave in 175.

It is without a doubt, my favorite ski.

It's great for carving, bumps, steeps, deep powder, you name it. I've been on this ski for over a month now and every time I'm on it I just love it more. Everyone I talk to loves it, too.

Yesterday I was at Highlands. Did two trips and 1/2 trips up the Bowl. On the first trip the top of the Bowl was winter snow, lower bowl was mank. My skis were just so fine. The second trip, half of the bowl was Spring snow (it was warm yesterday). Then we walked up and did Flip's Leap. This ski is a twin tip (makes me feel young). Peter said a twin tip is not a ski for steeps. I don't know about other twin tips, but this one kicks ass on the steeps. We skied Whips Veneration, Full Curl and Flips Leap. All those lines are 45 degree plus. They were lovely, hold the snow like you're glued to it.

They're also great for tripping up the bowl, because they're light. Metal skis are heavy!

Both my young buddies want my skis.

It's quick, really good for bumps. And it carves well. I'm not a big high angles guy, because my lower back is stiff. But I can get nice tracks on them, using of course what I learned from the Skunk.

I love, my SkiLogik's.

Next year I'm getting two more pair, with my own custom graphics. I'm thinking Highland Bowl on one, Grouse Mountain on the other.

Not only that, the owner pays his employees health insurance and he cares about the planet. It's a great little company, please support SkiLogik.

Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on August 31, 2011, 09:00:29 pm
WOW. Peter hadn't changed his opinion of the Ski Logik skids.  Says that the Ullr's Chariot is once again a prime contender for ski of the year.

I'm not regretting my purchase yet.  ;)
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 24, 2011, 08:39:21 am

I had let my Real Skiers subscription lapse and just got around to renewing it.  Lo and behold, Peter picked my beloved Ullr's Chariots as the overall ski of the year again.  I have included his brief below.
Thank you John Botti for talking me into buying these last year.


============================================

This is the first time we've picked a ski two years back-to-back.

We had very strong candidates this year, including Elan's Amphibio WF 82 xti which became the Big Mountain Carver of the Year, but in the final analysis, we had to go with the Chariot (and it's female-specific companion, the Goddess). These skis represent the current benchmark for versatility.

Race skis carve better, but these are respectable. Rockers render powder easier, but not all that much easier. Other skis are quicker in bumps, but not all that much quicker. And so on . . .

Simply put, the Chariot and Goddess are the most versatile, terrain-balanced, do-everything, skiable-by-almost-anyone, 1-ski-quivers we've yet come across and so are our picks, again, for Overall Skis of the Year.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: LivingProof on October 24, 2011, 01:17:49 pm
33 pages and the Ski Logic Chariots are still going strong!

Jimbo,
Well done! Two "Ski of the Year" winners and still on the same pair of skis. What foresight! Heck, Ron was probably never on one "Ski of the Year" and he buys 2 new each year.

I like Peter's logic, not the best at anything, but, very, very close. I  could live with that. I give him credit for remaining true to his principle's and sticking his neck out for a second year on a ski that many say is ok.

At Epic, if your not on a DPS Wailer or Blizzard Bonifide, you are not at the cutting edge.  :-* Anybody know how they graded in Real Skiers?
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on October 24, 2011, 02:07:22 pm



Well, as usual HelluvaSkier said it best in his signature: "All-Mountain: A common descriptive term for boots or skis that are designed to perform equally poorly under a variety of conditions and over many different types of terrain"

Of course, I wonder whether that also applies to "all-mountain" skiers, which is how I would like to see myself.  I AM able to perform equally poorly in a variety of conditions and on different types of terrain??

LP:  I could tell you what the RealSkier reviews for those skis are, but then Lynn would have to shoot you because I gave away the classified secrets.

If people are looking for powder skis there are better skis even in the SkiLogik line, as HighAngles has said over on PMTS. 
FreeSkier magazine picked the Howitzer (tip rocker) for their "micro brew" award last year.
Powder Magazine awarded SkiLogik Howitzer a "Skier's Choice" award -- I don't know what that means.
Title: Re: Ski Logik Ullr's Chariot
Post by: jim-ratliff on January 14, 2013, 02:21:35 pm

An interesting post from EpicSki regarding factory tune on Ski Logik skis.  I didn't know this, but one of the first things I had done to mine was a base check (they were fine) and a retune to .7 base and 2 degree side.






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