realskiers
Skis and Gear Discussion => The Neutral Zone -- Open Discussion on anything => Topic started by: Ron on May 06, 2008, 12:17:16 pm
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Well som eof you know I have been in near constant pursuit of a doctor who can tell me what's wrong with me. My primary Ortho says it's beyond him and i needed to go to a general surgeon who could really treat abdominal injuries so I went to a "expert" board certified, general surgeon with all kinds of credentials. He determined that I didn't have a hernia (we knew that) and said just to rest it (no PT or excercise) and it would be fine, oh, he didn't really know what a sports hernia was either (obviously keeping up on his practice ?). That was March..... OK, so ski season ended and I decided to rest, it's now 2 months later and not a whole lot better. So I went yesterday to see a real expert, one of the lead dr.s for the Rutgers univ. sports team with advanced experience with abdominal wall reconstruction and hernias and such, Sounds good? Hmm, it was almost an hour away, I waited 1.5 hours to see him, after 10 minutes I was told I don't have a hernia and if I stopped those "crazy sports" like skiing, i wouldn't have so many injuries (note: only the skiiers thumb was directly skiing related other than this although I have a history of groin pulls on this leg) No prognosis of what is currently wrong. OK, I lied, did you know that I tore a muscle? Hmm what was the clue? So he recommends I go back to PT and "see what happens". I should be better by the fall just in time to get ready for ski season, of course I laughed when he said this; I start July1 for the season. Hmmm? what else? Oh, that's right, he moved on to the next patient and didn't write up a script for PT. I called back today and was told by his assitant that the doctor doesn't normally tell the PT groups what to do, she thought maybe I could go there and "ride a bike or something, maybe stretch"....... is it just me????
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;D ;D ;D
I thought Gary had tried to tell you what was wrong with you many times, but that you INSISTED you were SANE.? ?;D
Not you, it's doctors. Many don't care, just as many don't know.? And sometimes the really good ones like to be selective for the unique and challenging (it's not as if people's health is involved, after all).? It was a revelation to me when I realized, after watching the Army doctors that made the rounds each day, that not all of them graduated at the top of their class.? Some clearly weren't even in the upper half.? Up until that point I had held doctors and truck drivers in pretty high regard.
Wonder if Lynn will chip is here with any of her insights regarding working with doctors?
What about working it backwards.? Can you get an eval from PT somewhere based on prescription from your non-specialist GP, and then ask them what doctor they would recommend, or even if they think that a doctor is necessary?? Alternately, do you know any doctors that are skiers?? Ask them who they would go to.? Doctors usually know who the good doctors in the area are, even if they are hesitant to recommend.
Re-read.? That's really sad that your primary ortho couldn't recommend who you should see.? Very Strange.? Will he write a script to P/T, or have you been that route already.
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Ok, I will answer in order
1- hmmm, not sane, that we know. All members of my family shoud be on some kind of medication
2- my primary doctor is very good. The problem is that there just aren't a lot of good sports oriented doctors around here unless you find someone in the city (NYC) I tried that route with my shoulder several years back but the doctors who treat the pro's couldn't really be bothered with you so although they would be awesome, there's little interest on their part.
3- My PT guy, Eric is awesome, he is a tri-athelete and is really up on his training, He doesn't get a lot of severe groin /ab injuries and so he doesn't see a lot of patients who have this to learn which doctors are best. keep in mind, this ain't colorado.
4- Do I need a doctor? I don't know, i would just like to know what I did and if there's something more that can be done. So far, in 3 doctors, not one has ordered any test. The last two checked me for hernia's and that's it. No tests for strenght or really anything else. The guy yesterday was turning my leg. it turned fine, the problem is it never hurt to turn that way, but he never asked, he never even asked what hurt now? He didn't ask when I have pain or where. Didn't ask what activities I normally do, didn't ask my usual excercise program or how often, didn't ask my goals or what i wanted...
5- Yes, this is my second round of PT. the 2nd doctor said I should not excercise at all and it would heal. Rememeber , he did no tests either.
I just want to know what's broken, torn, srtained pulled or maybe everything is fine and I'm nuts........
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Did anyone do an MRI? That's unreal that they can't figure out what's wrong. My wife works in the medical field as an Occupational Therapist. Sometimes, docs are really conservative, other times, they'll recomend opening you up without blinking an eye.
What kind of pain are you getting?
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I was thinking the same as Glenn, I wonder what an MRI would discover...
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Ron,
As a family medicine MD I'll apologize for my colleagues. It is unfortunate that sometimes physicians treat to the "norm" and don't accept that some people may legitimately want to live at a much higher level of fitness than the average American. The suggestion to go to your family doctor, see if he will recommend you to a good PT, and see if the PT can help discern what is going on or if there is an exercise program that would help correct the problem is a good one
That said, I would be curious to hear of your symptoms. When does it hurt, how severe is the pain on a scale of 1-10, what is the location and quality of the pain, dull, burning, aching etc, does it start in the right lower abdomen and shoot into the groin for example, what exacerbates the pain, what makes it better, does it come a a particular time of day etc. If you feel it is from an injury, what happened to the best that you can guess. If you fell for example, how did you fall, how did you land etc. Once you type out your detailed answer, do yourself a favor and print it out and take it with you to your next MD visit. It may help a lot in sorting things out. A good history is 75% of the work in discovering these things.
The MRI may or may not be helpful. Most MD's would want to be sure the test could help sort things out before ordering this expensive test. ie - do I need to know right now or will this self correct. After all, most things tend to sort themselves out (sorry if I'm clueless about something that has been nagging for many months.) MRI can be helpful in answering specific questions...ie) do you have an abdominal muscle strain...so if you get far enough that someone gets a theory of what is happening it is fair to ask the question, 'Would an MRI either prove or disprove that theory, would it help us in any way? And if we get the MRI would it change anything we are going to do? If it doesn't change what you are going to do, why get it?
Lastly, follow up with your MD.....get a follow up visit if you are not happy with the way things are progressing. If you go, try what the MD says and it doesn't help and go back with the same problem, no change, there is a lot more incentive to push a different button to find the answer. Unfortunately, we don't always figure things out on the first wack.....it is a "practice" of medicine.
I hope this helps,
Perry
I will try to check for you answer. Usually Monday - Thursday is a blur, but I can check in on Friday.
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Ron,
That said, I would be curious to hear of your symptoms. When does it hurt, how severe is the pain on a scale of 1-10, what is the location and quality of the pain, dull, burning, aching etc, does it start in the right lower abdomen and shoot into the groin for example, what exacerbates the pain, what makes it better, does it come a a particular time of day etc. If you feel it is from an injury, what happened to the best that you can guess. If you fell for example, how did you fall, how did you land etc. Once you type out your detailed answer, do yourself a favor and print it out and take it with you to your next MD visit. It may help a lot in sorting things out. A good history is 75% of the work in discovering these things.
I hope this helps,
Perry
Excellent advice.
Lynn
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thanks and here's the answers
1- fell when skiing, a twisting fall. Inner thigh filled with blood. NOTE: I have history of groin pulls on this leg
2- hurts primarilly in along the ingunal ligament; from just inside the fold of the leg and abdomin, then shoots down into the pubic bone/joint. Some pain radiants from the pubic bone down the inner thigh. Pain also extends into the quad from the top of the hip/quad area
3- hurts almost constant. Laying down on back is most comfortable. More when walking, running is not possible. Sitting more than 1/2 hour causes cramping. I have started gentle leg stregthening along with core work. I can only do limited range situps. Pain can range from mild discomfort, to shooting pain, burning and to strong dull aching. I ice or use heat every night. advil as well
4- I am starting rehab again (did for 2 months) to see if I helps.
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Ron:
Playing doctor ;D.
Can you walk on just your heels? The real question is whether you can easily hold your toes up against the pressure of balancing on your heels. Can you walk effectively on your tippy toes? Can you stand on the edge of a stair with just your toes on the stair and hold yourself up? Again the question is muscle strength in the calf? When walking, would others say your gait is normal? When you step with your right foot forward, do you still have control of your foot or do the toes tend to slap down on the ground?
Doctor Jim.
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I find it crazy that they can't figure out what's wrong. It sounds like you had a pretty serious injury and you're experiencing regular pain. It would drive me nuts if they said: "Well, try more therapy..."
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well we know there was a considerable tear so maybe it needs more time but i just wish i knew what tore and if there was something better to do. Jim? huh?
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Grasping at straws.
Two common tests for neurological involvement that are more obvious than the tap on the knee or ankle with the little rubber hammer.
1.? can you stand and maintain your balance with just the front half of your feet on the edge of a stair?? i.e. do you still have strong calves?
2.? when you walk can you still control your forefoot or does it "slap" down as you walk?? shin muscles
You had a bad tear and those take a long time to heal.? But the constant pain and cramping and pain outside the primary injury area could be because the primary muscle has shortened and is pulling muscles around it; or it could be that there was also some neurological damage that is causing the cramping and possibly phantom pain in the hip.?
Your overall description sounds somewhat like the problems I was having last summer, severe cramping in the groin muscle that i couldn't stretch out, and a bit of pain in the hip and radiating into the leg.? In my case, it was a minor muscle strain (not your major tear) and more significant neurological impairment from the same event.? The two things above were the simple tests for neurological impairment, because they evaluate nerves by testing the lower leg muscles well away from the damage site (and then that was justification for an MRI).
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no neuro pain the musclles that tore in december are the same ones that still hurt.
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Jim...can you stand on one foot and scratch your Heine .....with the other foot....can you chew gum and blink each eye at the same time and then reverse it, can you catch golf tees with your nostrils....with your eyes closed?
Hey...I wanna play more of this game!!!!... >:D
We all feel for ya brother Ron...but hey....217 days to go....start kicking this thing in the butt...don't make us come out there, load you on a plane and take you to ABasin ......for .......2 weeks until all your pain is gone.? ::) hmmm, I think I may have found the perfect cure!? ;D
Come on gang....let's go to New Jersey...it's intervention time!
Best,
Gary
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You are both wrong. 248 days to RSIII.
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Wow! December.
But then again if you are like me you got a little better and continued to ski. So the pain kind of waxed and waned, a little better a little worse. What is curious to me is that some significant rest has not helped.
Does it feel worse when the affected leg is pushing off or pulling forward?
Where do you feel the cramp?
Any pain shoot down your leg/ electrical/ numb/ tingling type of pain?
Sounds like a serious muscle strain - probably an adductor, gracilis, or pectineus muscle (groin strain)
For what it is worth, at this point, I would think it is reasonable to MRI groin and hip of affected side.
Gentle stretch and strengthening at first followed by 15 - 20 minutes of ice.
Scattered thoughts at the end of a busy day...... your answers and some more funny questions from Gary should get us closer!
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Is this what I have to look forward to when I get older? ;D Pain and injuries? :o
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well, this has been my life! I have always been very active in one sport or another and unfortunately, I've had a lot of injuries. Doesn't say much for my atheletism.
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Perry....you know we need a Doc at our RS III and heck you could probably write it off...well....being a member of the club and your expertise needed on the mountain.
Nah...you'd be tearing it up with the rest of us.....well that means carving, sliding, bumping all over Steamboat.
Please consider joining us.
AND Glenn...getting older doesn't mean injuries or pain. When you push yourself to extremes you sometimes run into trees or crash off a jump, ya take chances which may result in pain or injuries.....not necessarily an age related melody.
Ron, on his behalf is one of those guys who likes speed, trees, all terrain....just ski behind him. Unfortunately, the kind of injury he sustained when an elephant sat on his car, has long term physical implications.
But with the heart of a champion and the mind of a 15 year old, Ron soldiered on and now needs time and answers to recover.
We hope that his pursuit of hang gliding this summer will be moved to the rear burner so he can save himself for another great ski season.
Ron...please stay away from elephants and hang gliders!
Best,
Gary
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such kindness and well-said, I would rather have this than be an overweight-couch-sitting-do-nothing-potato-chip-eating-gaper! How about a gang-gliding elephant? :o
Thanks for the support! (Is this the same guy who took pictures of me while I was puttin gon my hernia belt??? ;D
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Hernia belt or kind words....you can use all the support we can muster!
Now....get better....215 days and counting!
G
"a gang gliding elephant"? and you're on what LEGAL medication?
For sure those gang gliding elephants are always steppng on toes, eating all the nuts in the jar, and showing there colors on the wrong side of town.
So any gang gliders from your neck of the wood Ron?
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Good news! I went to rehab today and the therapist wants me to have an MRI. He was a little bewildered that the other docs' hadn't ordered any tests. I called my main Ortho, who recommended me to find a specialist, and brought him up to speed, he was also suprised that no one ordered any tests and immediately ordered an MRI. I go next monday.
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excellent!!! Hope they don't find anything and that "tincture of time" will be the only prescription needed.
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thanks, I will feel better just seeing what we can see, so to speak, MRI's won't show a lot but if there is something with the ligaments and all, we will at least have an idea. I am really hoping that rehab will work and I'll be back on the track to recovery. I had rehab yesterday and I am really sore today but that's to be expected.
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Are you getting one of those MRI's with the dye? I'm not sure if that's applicable in this case. I'm just a desk jockey who studied business. :D
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no contrast, I jsut came from rehab where they had another therapist run more tests and he discovered that my Iliopsoas muscle is not working. He turned my leg in different positions and tested my strength. When he tested this muscle, I couldn't move my leg! It had no strength. So, this is good in a way, we found something specific to work on. They are very interested to see if it shows up on the MRI
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That is good news. Now they have something to focus on.
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we hope. Even if the MRI doesn't show anything, we at least have a specific area to work on now. Thanks!
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ohhhh........very interesting! Don't you hate it when a doctor says this :o >:D
Now we are getting somewhere! The MRI is a welcome opportunity to either find the problem, or reassure you that time will heal. The psoas starts as high as L1-2, goes along the side of the spine and inserts into the lesser trochanter of the hip. It pulls the leg up or flexes the leg at the hip and is a weak external rotator of the leg. It gets it's innervation from L2-4 so if you pushed a disc out at that level on the affected side, it could cause your weakness. The importance of this is that you may need and MRI that goes from L2 down to just below the lesser troch of the proximal femur.
Here's some questions - Do you have a fairly arched lower back (the MD may say accentuated Lordosis - comes from the fact that most rich Lords had big bellies that caused them to have arched backs in order to counter balance their Yorkshire pudding gut!) If the back is arched, the psoas gets short, and may predispose you to strains. To stretch you have to pull the leg back and press the pelvis forward and flatten the lower back. It's not easy to do at first, and the PT can really help you with this.
The disc is an interesting possibility (hope I'm wrong). Your post about the pain said something about burning or electric pain and you get numb when sitting for long periods of time. That's what I remember - too lazy to open a new window and go back and read that post before sending this. The other possibility is that you ripped the muscle "slap off" the lesser troch (I take care of many farmers and I love it when they say "slap off") That would explain the large amount of bruising.
Anyway, sounds like you are on the way to sorting things out and getting a solution.
Perry aka Dr B
PS - thanks for the invite to RS III - I have been tempted since the first go around.
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Yes interesting! no back pain,no apparent nerve interaction/impingement or disk issues. Both the PT and my chiro checked my back . The PT's concern was I severed or servely tore it. My back is fine. I had L5 S1 surgery 4 years ago, extruded disk! Fun baby, fun.... NOT.
I called my ortho who took over my care for now to let them know. They'll reissue the script to the MRI folks if needed. PT said these two muscles go through area of primary pain, pass the inguinal ligament, into the uuper thigh and down into the pubic bone area. he feels it's not the only muscle involved. Thoughts? Unofficial and non-medical advice speaking of course! ;D
You must come to RSIII. It's really a fun week. AND Lynn's apple pie is a true slice of heaven! (each of us take turns hosting dinners at our condo's) I am readt for this season! Whoo-hoo!!!
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It is a very busy area indeed! The Iliacus amoung others could also be involved. The muscle goes along the spine, down the back part of the inside of the pelvis, and insert on the inside/front of the hip right after it makes it's angle. here's a look
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sacrowedgy.com/images/psoas.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sacrowedgy.com/scoliosis.htm&h=333&w=250&sz=24&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=uLKb1Oo-uuVyvM:&tbnh=119&tbnw=89&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpsoas%2Bmuscle%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official
Here's an interesting link, read half way down where she talks about problems running and getting worse with sitting
http://www.obgyn.net/pelvic-pain/pelvic-pain.asp?page=/cpp/articles/parker_Iliopsoas_Trigger_Point
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Interesting reading. I really don't have any back pain or discomfort but otherwise, it really seems dead on.
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Ron...so happy that we have a stationery target to focus on now...Knowing too that the MRI coming up on Monday may further identify the aliens running rampid in your body....little bastards.... >:(
Perry...we all appreciate your thoughts and expertise you bring to this forum...set your calendar for the RSIII dates...it's a must!
AND.>.>>Make sure your every breath you and decision you make regarding ski, skiing, clothing and ski gear, hang on every word uttered here....we are SO spot on! >:D well it's fun trying ;D
Best guys,
Gary
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Keep in mind that Perry's comments are annecdotal in nature and are not meant to diagnose or to provide medical advice in any way. (right perry?) ::)
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Ron may not have this, but I definitely did. Was inner tubing down the Delaware with "the kids" last september. My soon to be daughter in law noted my whole body twist as I avoided a nasty section of rocks. No pain or discomfort at the time. Walking to the car 30 minutes later had a slight back twinge. 15 minutes later while mid drive home I could no longer sit and drive. Switched with my son. A few hours later was wondering if I needed to go to the ER. Could not sit to eat dinner. The word "agony' comes to mind. Drugs helped and I took it easy for a week. but any time I sat for any period it would start to hurt. I still feel tight on that side 8+ months later. I am careful of it in yoga.
Thanks for sharing your info Perry.
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Lynn, that article was dead-on for you!
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Keep in mind that Perry's comments are annecdotal in nature and are not meant to diagnose or to provide medical advice in any way. (right perry?) ::)
Yes, of course, Imagine the fast talking guy at the end of the commercial:
all views expressed here are for informational purposes only, do not try anything mentioned here at home or unless supervised by a trained professional, any attempt to self diagnose or help a friend in need could result in harm, injury, death, deformity, erectile dysfunction, hemorrhoidal itching, falling with the inability to get up, or worse.... the heartbreak of psoriasis.
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......and don't forget to seek a prositute or physician immediately if you have an errection for more than 4 hours as this is a sign of something,,,,, ;D
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Okay, moving this thread back into more sedate waters.....good luck with your MRI today!!!
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Thanks! As yo know, not much to do but lay still..... They do give your choice of Satellite music stations ot listen to.
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Ron:
Echoing midwife's thoughts, good luck with the MRI although it will be a couple of days before you get results probably.
No matter what the results, it's nice to at least have an idea of what was affected and hopefully a direction to follow.
Jim
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I should get the results later today or tomorrow, Yes, I really don't need another surgery (6 now) so I really hope we at least locate the source of the pain and weakness and then we can get started. Thats really the frustrating part. I just want to know. I feel that we are on the right path now. Maybe Perry can unofficially comment on this: If the Iliopsoas is torn or completely torn, can I rehab this and avoid surgery?
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Great question...ie) this is exactly the way you should be thinking BUT I honestly don't know the answer. This is where I say that I have to defer to the expertise of the specialist.
One thought. It may be worth your while posting this to HH. He seem very knowledgeable regarding physiology and anatomy and he may have seen this before. Tell him you injured yourself flexing!!!!!!!!!!! and the experts at Epic said it was because you were using bad technique! :o >:D Sorry, the aforementioned was random humor resulting from the beginning of my 4 day weekend and a nice single malt.
I am serious about mentioning this to HH though. (without the trash humor) He really is impressive with his knowledge of how the body works.
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Hey Ron
Have you heard anything yet?
Lynn
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Well I got my report and saw the doc. The mystery continues. all is basically fine, some signs of inflamation and light strain but no signs of any tears. This is good in one respect that there's nothing hanging or torn but the other issue is since we know I tore some muscles or something, what happened and what is still going on? SO,,,, the my doc spoke with the rehab PT who told him about the leg not able to move when you rotate my foot out (to the right) but he has no answers or suggestions other than keep going with the rehab.? He still thinks its a sport hernia and told me that it wouldn't show on an MRI. I am very frustrated and will press on. I do feel stronger since getting back to rehab.
not sure if I should post this but.... this was my leg the day after the fall, I woudn't characterize this as a mild strain to the muscles? Would you?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3167/2516291782_b386135156.jpg)
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Note to all....that is NOT impact bruising either...
It's hard to believe just getting up off the toilet seat one could sustain such a horrendous injury.... >:D
Nah....just busting on ya.....glad to hear you feel your starting to feel stronger.
Information is key...listen all...ask your mother, your brother, your girlfriend, show this picture around, someone is sure to have seen this groin somewhere.... ::)
Now this is brilliant: ;D
Maybe we could focus our collective conscious minds into some kind of mental particle beam and aim at Ron's groin.....think heal....heal....hea l...hey...doing something is better than doing nothing!!! 8)
Best,
Gary
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You know, at this point, I open to the suggestion....... ;D
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Real Skiers give me your collective minds:
Memorial day..12 noon....
We shall send Ron a mental particle beam aimed at his groin.....this beam shall have thoughts of healing and well being!
Please concentrate the beam for no more than 15 seconds otherwise his groin might disintegrate :-\.....nope, not pretty!
Ron....after this works and you're instantly healed, bring your collective wallet loaded with greenbacks to RSIII where you shall present us a feast of gastronomical delight in celebration of our successful mental particle beam deployment...... ;D
gosh...the things we'll do to keep our ski brothers healthy!
Prepare yourself....."fire za laser beam"....sorry, lost myself for a moment.
Please feel free to take some test shots at Ron's groin between now and the collective firing on Monday. ::)
Aw, I got a good feeling about this... ;D
Gary
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Gee, I am overwhelmed by your concern for my well-being ::)
but thanks for the laughs....
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Gary:
I am going to have to respectfully decline participation in this event. >:D
I really just can't imagine forcing myself to focus on Ron's groin for an extended period of time like this. ;D ;D ;D Remember that for the aged, memory attention spans become dramatically shortened, so 15 seconds is a LONGGGG time.
NOW, if the affected area turns out to be the upper back, then perhaps I might feel more comfortable participating.
Jim
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Well Jim, one thing that I can tell you that the groin has little to do at all with "that" part of the body. I do appreciate the kind thoughts though. did you like the picture?
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I know, it's just the word groin that I was playin on. >:D
The picture is interesting. How many days post event was that. FWIW, I've seen hamstring pulls (I think thats actually a tear, not a strain) that had more bruising and darker bruising than that, but it took several days for the bruising to make it to the surface. But I've never heard of anyone not getting dramatically better from a strain or even a tear from rest. That's the frustrating part.
However, I've also seen some nastier surface bruises from guys getting hit by baseballs that show up pretty quickly. Depending on how hard you hit that tree (I remember the bark stains) that could be surface bruising and something else was underneath. I, obviously, don't know.
I didn't go back in the thread, but didn't Perry say that if they didn't find anything in the groin then he would recommend looking higher in the back where that muscle attaches?
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The MRI won't show the extent of the injury originally. I would say that if it says mild now almost 6 months after, then it was major when it happened.
mental self-imaging of a healthy leg will help the healing. This is fascinating to me, don't understand it very well ???, but know that it is a real phenomenon
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Thanks Perry, problem is that is still fairly significant. I still cannot run what so ever, walking can be painful but I always get a pulling feeling in my ab down to the pubic bone and into the upper thigh. After about a mile, It gets very painful. Sitting is still a problem, causes cramping. If I rotate my foot out, I cannot lift my leg. Don't you think it should be better than this by now?
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mental self-imaging of a healthy leg will help the healing.? This is fascinating to me, don't understand it very well? ???, but know that it is a real phenomenon
My wife sees it all the time with people she treats. Attitude is a huge part of getting better.
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Firm beleiver, attitude and drive are essential. That's wh i don't give up looking for 'the answer" . Got another doctor today to see.
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Believe in your bodies ability to heal....positive thinking unquestionably huge!
BUT...thinking and doing bring even more positive results. The body is an amazing thing....we've all been through injuries of all sorts and it truly astounds me what a fantastic machine our body is.
Rest and exercise...can overcome numerous melodies.
You see...the 15 seconds spent on Ron's groin yesterday is paying off...come on Jim...you're a big boy...you can admit, no shame or disgust here...you were thinking about Ron's groin for MORE than 15 seconds yesterday weren't ya?!?!? >:D
Ron....glad you're keeping us posted....this way we can keep sending you written and mental positive messages to speed recovery!
Best,
Gary
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Almost 6 months since the "incident". No impact, just lifting yourself up off the snow in a non-stacked position.
Total lack of ability to make certain movements. Bruising at the time. Sounds like nerve damage. Since the MRI didn't see a missing muscle attached where it should be, perhaps nerve testing is called for.
Just a thought.
Lynn
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good thought and it was listed as a possibility by my primary ortho. The actual damage seems to have stemmed however from the actualy fall. Remember Jon, My friend? He actually took pictures of the fall and I really twisted my body very hard.
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Making some decent progress with rehab! ;D My PT is really working on rebiulding strength and we started yesterday on the weakest areas. He didn't want to stretch or work the worst areas until we got the other muscles going. Very sore but I feel we are getting somewhere!
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Yeah Ron...I understand your first week of theraphy so far has been lifting your cup to the espresso machine! >:D
Now quite it mister and get busy on those ski muscles! ;D
G
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end of 2nd you mean?
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Thanks Perry, problem is that is still fairly significant. I still cannot run what so ever, walking can be painful but I always get a pulling feeling in my ab down to the pubic bone and into the upper thigh. After about a mile, It gets very painful. Sitting is still a problem, causes cramping. If I rotate my foot out, I cannot lift my leg. Don't you think it should be better than this by now?
Ron, I would think that you would have progressed some by now quite honestly. One possibility is that the way that the injury has affected you is that the stuff you normally do to get better has chronically aggravated this injury. I am curious to ask if now that you are doing the PT if you can notice that you are slowly making progress.
Another thought. I was always taught to visualize the anatomy. In your case the psoas starts up at L2 and goes down along the back wall of your lower abdomen and through your groin area to attach to you upper femur. (this is exactly where you have pain) Even though you bruised in your groin, you could have also strained it higher up, stretched a nerve,etc . I am curious if the MRI looked at that area, where MDs would say is the origin of the muscle is, and also at that level of the spine. It would be common to get views in the groin and for them not to look up at L2 - L5 of the spine and track the muscle along its entire course. (Why does this happen? - I think probably because all these great machines have made us lazy thinkers. 9 out of 10 times we look where it hurts and presto - the magic machine tells us what is wrong.) In cases that don't add up, one has to re-think the entire process, push a different button, try a different theory, come up with a new hypothesis etc.
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Making some decent progress with rehab! ;D My PT is really working on rebiulding strength and we started yesterday on the weakest areas. He didn't want to stretch or work the worst areas until we got the other muscles going. Very sore but I feel we are getting somewhere!
I like what I hear in this. I sounds like this guy knows what he is doing. Stick with this program and see what happens after 3-4 weeks. If you see progress, keep with the winning formula. If you hit a wall, give it time 2 weeks or so to work through it. If you hit a wall and stop and go nowhere, refer back to my previous message.
Also, remember the post with the link to the OB doctor who had women with similar problems? She found result with massage therapy. Be careful here however, there are some big and important blood vessels and nerves and guts and goey things that you don't want to be pushing too hard on. Let somebody who knows what they are doing, do this.
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we;re doing well but it's very painful. I can actually lift my leg now. After a couple of sessions, the muscles started to fire again. Hurts like hell! Not getting a lot of sleep but it's moving at least.
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Ron
Find a Chinese doctor that was educated in China. I am serious, I have had great results from acupuncture. Any certified acupunturist would probably but the education in China is "board certified".
Bob
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Ron
I" second that emotion", er....I mean I concur. Not to supplant your PT, but work in addition to.
There is a lot of watered down acupuncture in this country, but it really seems to help a lot of people. And those trained in China have quite a touch.
You know what "they" say. "Might help, won't hurt"
Lynn
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Geez....I thought they said "taste great less filling"!
Hmmm.....alcohol as a relaxint....who wudda thunk?
Having never been needled by anything other than my ex-wife....we need to explore the internet for a skier who is Chinese certified acupuncturist who we could cajole into joining us at RS III and beyond.....
Now that would be living large...the doc. the needle man...the ski waxer/tuner...the cooks.....the shelper....
Wow....talk about a great reality show!
Can't wait,
Gary
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I have been treated by a very good accupuncturist for many years for different things. It's great stuff! I just don't have the time to go to rehab 2x a week and accupuncture on top. I am seeing some improvement with the strenghtening and strecthing so I want to keep this ging. I had another breakthrough this AM, I was only able to adduct (bring across the body) my right leg only a few inches, about even with my big toe on my left foot, this morning, it released and I was able to bring across several more inches! It was great, it just released! Going to rehab today can't wait to show him the progress.
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Awesome and Hallelujah.......Ha ppy for ya Ron.
Good attitude and a good bottle of wine go a long way.
Great news, keep up the good work!
Is it too early to "think snow"?
G
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Wine, wine??
When did Ron switch from coffee to wine?
;D ;)
OR, is now doing both??? >:D >:D
Ron, great progess. Very glad to hear of the improvement.
I know how frustrating it must have been to feel so hobbled by the weakness and pain.
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Hmm, I don't think I ever switched from wine to Coffee or vice/versa, just a bit more of each! ;D
I'll be fine! It's just a slow fun process.
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keep up the good work. I sounds to me like perhaps the spasm in the upper psoas is releasing, (uncramping)
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Yeah....Ron's been releasing psoas since I've known him.....usually after one of his morning breakfast specials with guacamole and black beans.....nasty I tell ya, nasty! :-[
And sure Lynn...we all know Ron is hobbled....but that's a story only his shrink could shed light on.
BUT....truth be known, I think he's juicing himself back to health with his wines and coffee beans...
Hey,..whatever works!
A "slow fun process" are you insane my Watea brother....the word "fun" should not be in that sentence.....well.. ya see there it is again...hobbled! >:D
So Ron release away and consume as many liquid beans and grapes as may be necessary on the road to full recovery!
;D
G
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Gary:
By the way, how's your arm doing??
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keep up the good work.? I sounds to me like perhaps the spasm in the upper psoas is releasing, (uncramping)
interesting thought. Could that have been the source? Could it have just shut down as a protective measure?
Hmm, I miss my mountain tex-mex breakfasts.... Yum......
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Hey Ron.....I can only relate to what I went through with my arm. If the fatigued muscle is damaged, it just will not function at full capacity and tells us this through pain. I do believe that the muscle has a memory and with correction through surgery as in my case or rest as in yours, it will return to it's normal strength as long as there are no other mitigating issues....so we're all encouraged by the progress you've been making...slow and steady!
Hey Jim....yep...the arm is back to about 99.5% and getting stronger each day. Forearm rotation is 100% on pronation and about 98% on supination....AND if this is how it ends up...no biggie..but I've been playing tons of golf..life is good!
Best,
Gary
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went to a different doctor yesterday, I am very happy to say that I am having surgery within the next coupl eof weeks. You know things are going well when the Dr. tells you he's an avid mogul skier and had a compression fracture to his spine when missing a table jump in Tremblant! He definitely understands us......
So, to summarize, he's done a lot of these surgeries for atheletes and folks like us. They go in arthroscopically and look around, then sew kevlar mesh into the ab walls to reinforce them. Simple surgery, should be pretty much healed within a month. Totally psyched.
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Very glad to hear someone has a diagnoses, or at least an interest in exploring.
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I will be setting up the surgery date today. Lets go I'm tired of this.
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Glad to hear you?re closer to getting this solved!
Everyone, in lieu of flowers, send him Dunkin' Donuts gift cards! ;)
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www.counterculturec ofee.com works just fine, "toscany" blend......... ;D
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Best of luck!!
Sounds like you have found someone who has an idea.
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thanks Lynn! I am really feeling good about it and my PT crew agrees as well. My orthopedic pushed this from the start. It was really taking a toll on me mentally.
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july 14th's the day!
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Any idea of recuperation time? I guess it depends on what they find. Hernia's heal pretty quick with the mesh these days, though I think that is not a definitive cause?
Okay, we all know you are not shy.
WE WANT PICTURES!!!! gruesome stitches pictures!! ;D >:D;D >:D ;D
Oh, and if they do any laprascopic pics, include a few of those too!!!
Best of luck and keep us updated.
Fourteen days to groin reapproximation!! Hooray!!
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Yes, it's pretty much a hernia repair but with a larger area of repair.
No big scars, and no photos but I would be glad to show you in December anyway! (I am ducking under my desk now)
If I can get some laproscopic photos I will, I am interested in seeing that as well
recovery time. I need to know more. He is saying (and on line info is same) that 4 weeks for recovery. I want to know how soon I can get back into the rehab center and get things going.
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Lynn:
;D Just double checking, but wanted to make sure this is purely a medical curiosity? ??? Otherwise, as one of the moderators I may have to delete your earlier post asking Ron for pictures of his groin ???
>:D
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I don't believe the word "groin" was EVER used by me, Mr. Super Global Moderator. :o
Surely YOU are the one who has brought that thought to the forefront. :o ???
I ONLY asked for pictures of STITCHES. Suture lines, ya know. >:D ;D
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is that what she calls it? ???
Funny that she didn't ask to see my Knee surgery pics from last April?????
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;D ;D ;D VERY FUNNY post. :o :o
Excellent point Ron. She never asked to see the "suture lines" from my back surgery last summer either.
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Geez...Lynn didn't ask to see my suture line...yeah...and mine is above the belt line!
G
Hey guys....I'm thinking there's a bit too much slicing and dicing!
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is that what she calls it? ???
Funny that she didn't ask to see my Knee surgery pics from last April?????
i've seen lots of arthroscopic knee surgery pics. Am bored by them. Now abdominal pics!!!Yeah, baby.!!
Gary, Jim, pictures of healed scars are not the least bit interesting. I believe I used the word "gruesome".
Just so you understand where I am coming from. Blood and guts, guys, blood and guts. ;D ;D ;D
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interesting that so much slice, diceing and scoping going on for our liitle group!
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Well, if you and Gary hadn't gone cat skiing in the tight trees the numbers would be less.
However, I believe that if you don't have to stay overnight in the hospital then it barely counts as surgery. For my 'micro-diskectomy' last summer I checked into the hospital at 4:30 PM and they sent me home around 9:00 PM. That's less time that it takes Gary to do a round of golf.
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OK, in that case, I have "0" surgeries,
Now then, my injury had nothing to do with trees, just bad powder skiing technique!
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Wow Lynn...you are a blood and guts kinda gal.....
Ok...my first surgery to correct the snapped bicep was done on Christmas eve and home the same day....the 2nd surgery to release the bones in the forearm, 4 months later was a stay in a Chicago hospital and not pleasant due to the overnight torture machine that manipulated my arm for 16 hours straight...YIKES! Still, I have no bloody pics for Lynn....darn, I should have asked the Dr to take some.
AND Jim, that round of golf you described....would have been done around 8pm....we don't chase lost balls in the dark! (don't go there Jim)
What I wish for all of us is to have a bloodless and gutless ski season...Amen to that brothers and sisters!
Best,
G
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you can say that again bro' I am really looking forward to a nice, injury-free season.... for once.....
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Yes, skiing WITH you guys, is MUCH more fun than meeting you at the end of the day at the lodge!
Though you were both troopers and got out there again to test muscle stability. (Psoas to speak) ;D
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maybe not so smart though!
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Fortunately.....we're a hardy bunch who crave skiing!
So...with that injury past behind us..I've learned no tight Aspens on steep terrain with thin cover for me. Got into some nice pines with Ed at Whistler in March a few months back and it was just beautiful. Nice spacing and great snow made it a real blast.
Learning from accidents sucks but is still learning. I not really into learing that way so if I suggest anything stupid this season....someone please give me a good crack!
Healthy and ready to hit the slopes now... ;D.... Ron is on the cusp of "ready"!
Hope you all are in great health and as pumped as we are!
Best,
Gary
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I wouldn't trade all my injuries for less days of enjoying what we do. It's all worthwhile.
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;D
Yes, I am ready for ski season to start, but first have to get through the marriages of two of my sons (8/8/08 and then Labor Day weekend).? And I am in much better health this year than the past several; certainly hoping that this season is as wonderful as last.
However? :( I have it on good authority that Lynn has had to stop running because of a problem with her knee.? No more Marathons or Tri-athlons, it seems.? Says she thinks it is from a fall she took at Steamboat while not even moving.? Interestingly, this was the day she and I skied with the Mountain Host while y'all were cat skiing, so a total of three injuries that day (two of which are still lingering around).
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first off, congrats on the weddings!
Second, Congrats on feeling better and stronger, now go do some isometric squats!
I knew Lynn's knee was hurting but not that bad, Lynn, FEEL better.
lastly, Mr. Cassara is in full "bring it on" speed, so watch out! I will soon be there!!!!! Once I get the ab sewn up, I will need a month to get back to "chasing Cassara" fitness level.....
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Yes, I pulled something and I don't even know when. Never had any pain until at rest. But started at Steamboat.
It got better, but has not ever completely gone away and running was worsening it. Biking seems okay, so will stick with that this summer, along with yoga.
I think i have an MRI in my future. Not doing anything about it this summer, so will wait til fall. The garden comes first. In fact, I am pretty sure I have a bonanza crop of peas waiting to be picked and unfortunately, shelled. (My future daughter in law planted the damn things, I prefer snap or snow peas, less work, and she isn't even around to do the hard part!) ;)
Everyone
Have a great holiday weekend!
Eat, Drink (adequately and well), exercise and avoid sparks from fireworks.
And think of those early americans who didn't have things we do and yet created an incredible revolution and a really wonderful document,
The Constitution of The United States.
Patriotism, over and out.
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you as well. the good thing is you have access to some dr's. who know what to do.
Peas, yes we grow snap peas. Damn good things. watch too much bending and placing your wieight on the bended knee, that's a lot of stress on the joint.
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so we now know that the two other experts were wrong! I am so tempted to send them pictures of the tear and repair.....
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Yes send the pictures oh wounded one...so those grasshopper doctors can learn from your pain.
G