Styles and Technique-Just a look and some thoughts

[Liam]

I had a long and great conversation with a buddy (about modern ski technique, internet arguments, varying styles and ways to ski, etc).  He had a few thoughts that really got me thinking 1. Skiing isn't natural...there is no 'natural way to ski' it is arcane to essential animal ways of moving and technique and styles generally evolve around the evolution and changes in the tools we use to pursue his unnatural (yet wonderful) mode of travel.  Most of us will eventually gravitate towards a style of skiing that we find most aesthetically pleasing--and will ape the techniques that best evoke that style....and the equpment we're on will have a lot of input over the years about that as well.

Now, I'm not going to say that I don't think one style is better than another, because if that were true, I wouldn't pursue the sort of skiing that I do (I clearly have a preference and it is based on what I think is better).   BUT, I get that there are lots of way to get down the mountain, and that experthood can be defined in lots of ways.  I have biases towards one type of physiological move vs. another in skiing, but they are just that-biases.

So, with that in mind, I plucked a few basic videos of one type/ style of skiing--the one I encounter the most (and often have to argue against), I don't ski this way, and I don't really like this style, yet, many people I consider to be very strong skiers (all conditions, all terrain skiing reasonably fast and in the line of their choosing) use this style as their goto approach to skiing.

It is:  Wide, squatty stance, heavy edges driven by femoral rotation, very square upper body (rarely deviating from facing the fall line) and a preference for short turns over long or medium.

This style of skiing is popular with (in my experience) older Patrollers who are good skiers (and are the subjects of videos 2 through 4 below), PSIA guys who really cut their teeth in the mid to late 1990's, and Athletic individuals who came to skiing later in life.   This is the style that is often pushed on me (and all others) where I patrol-though,  I have summarily rejected it for myself.  Except for the subject in the first video, I have skied with everyone featured in the other videos, they ski fast, strong, expert lines, in all condition:  From Mad River Glen trees to eastern boiler plate and big mountain steeps.  While I don't like the sensations this style of skiing delivers (!), I cannot say that this style of skiing holds them back, in fact, I would say it helps aging skiers handle some pretty tricky terrain with aplomb. 

Oh, everyone in the videos #2-4 are over age 60, and one is 70 (featured in the grey coat i the Mt Snow video).

Video 1# Some older guy skiing Jupiter Bowl trees at PC-good steep, powdery terrain-love his cornice jumping sequence, this is a textbook example of this style of skiing:



Video #2 This is a fellow Patroller Following My Patrol director (age 70) through some moguls on Mt. Snow...again, pretty much a textbook example of this style of skiing:



Video 3:  It takes about a minute and 20 second for other skiers to show up in this video, but this is a great video of 'real world every day skiers' skiing a modest powder day at my mountain.  Again, the age of everyone in the video (except the teenage leaper-who is the son of a patroller and a fun kid who skis well) is 60+-Tony O is almost 70.  Later in the video is some good tree skiing videos that are worth watching.   Again, this is a great example of everyday, regular skiers who use this sort of style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejHGy2EdGU&feature=plcp 1

Video 4:  A short Video of an older ski patroller on hard pack skiing with this style.  He is probably it's biggest proponent on my patrol.  I have seen him ski the same turns, at the same speed in icy moguls, trees, and crud.  Again, while it is not my cup of tea, I can't deny it's efficacy as a useful approach to skiing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djBDTBsOjnw&feature=context-cha

As I said, I am not arguing or even interested in promoting this or any style of skiing, but rather in looking at how people who pursue one style develop a specific technique for that style.  I chose these videos not because these are the best pros (no  Egan brothers here, although they are the top dogs of this style)--but because these are solid real world resort skiers (most of who I know) who use their techniques in lots of different situations.

I'll probably post up a few of these real world montages for other styles as well as the season evolves.

Puzzle over that.

Liam

[jim-ratliff]

Liam: I think that is a very well written and thought provoking post. Well done, IMHO.

[jbotti]

Maybe its good to visit the land of rotation every now and then (as long as its on video) . Pivot and twist and power your way down the hill. Some of us probably don't think of this as "solid skiing" but everyone can choose their own model as to what they aspire towards in skiing (and anything else they pursue).

[Liam]

Thanks, Jim.

Yeah Jbotti, I guess that's about right.  And of course, for those who place how closely one's skiing reflects the style of skiing they prefer as the highest criteria, I wouldn't expect them to consider this 'solid skiing' either (unless, this is their preferred style!).  But, most of  the folks in this video aren't pursuing any model at all (I can't speak for the guy in PC as I don't know him), not consciously anyway.  They are trying to ski varied terrain, and maintain decent speed, with control, and in the line of their choosing.   They were taught this method (or they developed on their own over the years) and for their purposes it works well.

Also part of that style is the technique of staying forward and never getting aft on your skis (come hell or high water).  People who ski this way hate being aft the way harald hates rotary--that heavy pressuring of the forward boot cuffs is very fundamental to this style of skiing.   I'll say a few things about what this technique demands, what it delivers or not) in a future post.  But for now, I'm just looking at what it is, how it's used and the form and the function it follows.

I will add one more thing now.   I can say for this for that style of skiing, is that it is fairly easy to learn and put into practice.  The woman in Video#3 (Kathy)-who shows up around minute 5:30 in video and is seen skiing the powder/ crud trail into the tree run for the next minute is a good example.  She is actually younger than 60 (she is in her early 50's, mea culpa).  She came on patrol about 10 years ago and she COULD NOT SKI, I mean, like a true never ever.  Her kids were getting into racing so she wanted to be productive while being at the mountain all day and she joined patrol.

It took her about two seasons to get up to the level in the video---she was already pretty fit (she was, and is still a very competitive runner) and determined and had the time.  But that style of skiing got her skiing trees, bumps, crud, ice etc with speed control (and the ability to ski pretty quickly) and balance in a relatively short time. 

Again, though it isn't a style I pursue, it works well for Kathy and it has enabled her to be a very productive patroller and to enjoy the mountain to the fullest any day of the season.  She can ski the whole mountain.  So can everyone else in the videos.  There are a number of people who come on Patrol with no, or very primitive skiing skills (but they have heaps of other valuable skills).  Most end up competently working the mountain employing this style of skiing, and most acquire that ability in a season or two.

I am getting some videos for my next installment, but I'm going to let these videos stand alone for a bit.   

[jim-ratliff]

video 4, just looking at the feet, doesn't look to me like the model you are describing, but does look a lot like my Patrol friend's skiing from 10 years ago. (and what I would now consider Killy-influenced style). Then he began to "adapt" his style based on current trends, feet much wider apart.  His style now looks far less "elegant" to me, but he still skis anywhere with complete aplomb and control.

I agree that, while skiing isn't "natural", after you've been on the snow as much as these guys it does become second nature.  But I would think that their "style" is the culmination of lots of subtle and not so subtle influences over the years.

I like the topic.

[midwif]

Liam
A really great post and eloquent way of stating the "ski wars".
Your comment about admiring the way someone looks when skiing and wanting to ski "like that" really
hit a chord in me.

I did not learn to ski til my late thirties and was taught the typical entry level skills ie, wedge etc.
I took lessons most seasons, in an effort to get out of the intermediate zone, but was feeling really stymied.

At my first camp with HH, I remember looking up the hill and watching all the coaches come down the hill.
They all looked so smooth and fluid. Powerful and in command of the snow.
In particular, watching Diana, I thought " I want to ski like that ".

And have been pursuing it ever since. That is the style I aspire to . I may never get there, but the fun is in the journey.

And yes, I agree that there are plenty of "good skiers" who are way more proficient in more difficult terrain than I, whose style IS NOT what I aspire to. But hey, it's about having a good time and pursuing excellence in the genre of one's choice.

Glad we are able to have real conversation about different ski methodology without it exploding into the Hatfields/McCoys on this forum.

[Liam]

There is proper technique and everything else. Proper technique takes more time to master in skiing just as it does in any other sport. But once learned pays dividends for years to come. Style is added by the athlete on top of proper technique.

Hey Midwif,

What was that about this not turning into the Hatfields and the McCoys again? 

There is proper technique for each style.  Skiing comes from a combination of things .  You pursue the proper techniques that work for the style you wish to emulate. 

But don't worry, more styles and techniques to follow...one of them you're bound to like.

[LivingProof]

While awaiting Liam's video of the Stein Erickson's legs-locked-together skiing look of elegance, the presented video's have been fun to watch.

 Certainly, that look can be seen on any given day, and, I've got friends who ski like that. They just want to power through it, have a good time and dare you to keep up.  Technique is eschewed, results matter. For some it's mogul's, others it trees, or speed, or how long they stay out on the slopes. Bushwacker's a little in that vein with his ski-off challenge to "Come to Stowe, ski with me and I'll kick your butt". I've never thought technique is important to him, unless it comes to passing a qualifying test. Honestly, they can be a lot of fun to ski with, and, make me bite my tongue on occasion. We are all different.

Stand on the first hole of a golf course or watch what's going on at tennis courts, and, it's very clear the need to just power though exists in those two sports.

So, Liam, good find on the videos, we need to find something to discuss as the countdown to the season begins. I was remembering that Liam got first runs last season with the Halloween storm that dumped in the Berkshires. I'll be in western Mass. this weekend, I should take a ride up there.

[Liam]

LP,

If you bike (mountain) let me know...Western, MA is a world class (and I mean that) mountain biking region.  I'd be happy to  show a visitor around (we have good rides for all levels all abilities, fast or slow I don't care-I'm a pretty enthusiastic guide to our area).


What Brings you out this way...Leaf Peeping??
Nice points in the above post as well.....and, I have a not-so-secret infatuation with Stein and his skiing.  I really love how he skis...and I do mimic that style somewhat (Hey, there are worse models!).

Liam

[jim-ratliff]

There is proper technique and everything else. Proper technique takes more time to master in skiing just as it does in any other sport. But once learned pays dividends for years to come. Style is added by the athlete on top of proper technique.

Max: 
How do you identify or recognize "Proper Technique"?
If 10 winning basketball coaches from Division One schools all teach the same jump shooting technique, then I would say that's proper technique.
I know that John's race coach friend validated the basis of Harald's teaching.
And I believe that, for a long time, the skiing of Stein and Killy were the epitome of proper technique. But by a similar standard, doesn't that imply that Hermann Maier was the definition of proper technique (overall 4 times?), and I remember thinking he was a pretty ugly skier even before his bike accident? And Bode was overall champion twice, same as Jean-Claude Killy?  Does he exhibit or define proper technique?

I know that, for me, the attraction of PMTS wasn't that I was able to ascertain that it was "Proper Technique" but that the books and instructors taught a consistent and concise progression of moves (that are measurable). I had never seen (or received) any of that consistency from a PSIA resort lesson. To me, it's a consistent approach that yields results, but I'm not sure that makes it a "Proper" technique or even the best -- it's just the one that spoke to me.

Next year, when Bushwacka publishes his book, we may all change our mind on what "Proper Technique" is.  Picking on Bush a bit, but ideas are only the best until Apple introduces a replacement.

[Gary]

Hi gang....turned the heat on in the house yesterday...must mean it's time to check in with you all...

So here's my thought,

The benchmark or standard for all "proper" skiing is a moving target, or ever evolving series of movments. There are some techniques that work extremely efficient for some and not others. Finding what works for you, that which gives you the greatest results and greatest pleasure in my book is the bottom line. That doesn't mean that we give up trying to improve. It just means enjoy the ride along the way and if it moves your spirit to improve, watch a good instructor, see if they ski the way you want to....or not.
A classic example I can share is while skiing with Clendenin one day, he asked that I make a run with feet in a wider stance. I asked why he wanted to change my stance, (since mine is similar to his) he said he wanted to prove to some others that CSM can be skied from a wide stance. SO...the good friend that I am, started down the run with a 12" gap between my feet.
Well, the first thing I noticed was I was skiing on the outside edges of my skis so making turns was ridiculouly sloppy. My boots were set up to be flat on the ground in my "natural" stance, not one someone said is the way I had to ski. John laughed it off and let well enough alone.
My point is that there's not just one way of doing things. Some ways, if it's fits ones mechanical and physical make up, WILL work better for some and less for others. So many varialbles dictate how the individual pursues their skiing technique and evolution.
So for all of us that are fortunate to have found our comfort zone.....I hope that we can keep one simple thing in mind...

"Not everyone likes anchovies"! 

Looking forward to another great year....best, G

[ToddW]

Hey Gary, welcome back!

This skiing is not my style.  I'm fixated on the notion of skiing as a balance sport and my ideal (if not my actual skiing) reflects that.  But I've never skied with a 150+ pound sled behind me, unlike the patrollers in those videos.  My notions of balance might not survive contact with a moving sled filled with human cargo.

[ToddW]

In particular, watching Diana, I thought " I want to ski like that ".

Hey Midwif, no fair!  You stole my dream!  I am in love with that wicked short carved turn she does.  Y'know the one that turns all the other PMTS coaches' heads.  I'll give you three pieces of bubble gum, two jawbreakers, and some marbles if you give me back my dream.

Glad we are able to have real conversation about different ski methodology without it exploding into the Hatfields/McCoys on this forum.

Silver lining -- parts of the Hatfield and McCoy clans survived and their descendants get along, even having joint reunions. 

[jim-ratliff]

Silver lining -- parts of the Hatfield and McCoy clans survived and their descendants get along, even having joint reunions.

Yeah, those that didn't get "permanently banned" from life. 

[HighAngles]

Really interesting topic and conversation.

I think the thoughts around "proper technique" should be centered around how can we best use our skiing movements to extract the maximum performance and efficiency from a ski design.  When we look at how a ski is designed to perform, to turn, then it would be hard to argue against PMTS since the very root of the system's movements were developed from a biomechanical perspective using world class racing technique to extract every last ounce of performance from a ski.  This is one of the main things that attracted me to PMTS.  The movements are incredibly efficient at using the tools; our skis.

Skis really aren't designed to respond well to lots of rotary and steering input.  IMHO, that's why I think you're seeing such a huge insurgence of rocker designs that permit easier rotary movements, but when they go too far in those designs the skis are no longer very versatile for the typical mountain conditions most skiers have to handle.

[Liam]

Thankfully, Unlike the emerging modern industries and corporations of the early 20th century, skiing isn't some pursuit in fanatical Taylorism.   For many, efficiency is hardly the highest goal of any recreational pursuit.

And of course, even Taylor would stipulate that efficiency cannot be defined as a goal within itself, but rather a process defined by the specific goals and desires of each unique corporate/ industrial entity:

There is a difference in efficiency between the skier who wants to get through a steep, icy run covered with pre-arranged sticks that must be skied around in a specific order as fast as possible (which, I understand, may rely on something called 'stivoting' from time to time), and a skier who wants to maximize the number of opportunities for 'air' on a given run in the shortest amount of time.  And, again, a whole other rubric of efficiency for those for whom time is not a factor or goal at all.

But all that is a distraction anyway.  In a macro-sense, if I took efficiency as my highest goal, I wouldn't ski at all or waste any time pursuing such self-indulgent, low-yield frivolities like expensive outdoor recreation of any kind.  I'd like to think something more than a desire to be efficient drives people to the snow.

I think most of us search for 'competency' in our recreational pursuits, and perhaps one day 'mastery', though the very definition of that word makes it an elusive goal.  Both competency and mastery are primarily subjective, and the imposition of 'efficiency' is perhaps a pleasing way to objectify our playtime for some, but in the end, it is still evaluated by individual goals, which, due to their very individualism, are subjective.

At best, you can come up with an efficient way (but unlikely the 'most' efficient' way) to gain competency in the style of skiing you most desire to emulate. 

Which gets back to the point of my start of this thread.  There are different styles of skiing that have their own ups and downs, their own learning curves and pursued techniques that shape them.  And, yes their own scale of competency and mastery, and now, I'll even add their own scope of efficiency.

Ok, I was going to put up a few more videos in this thread (some of the Xteam stuff, etc) but I like staying with a theme of more everyday skiers and I think everything that can be said for this stylistic choice of skiing has been said.  Actually there is one video that has recently popped up on epic that I might throw in this thread....

It's some young guy from London skiing big lines in New Zealand: Very wide stance, tons of rotary and hopping, and yet, skis an impressive and air filled steep line, is able to pull off some nice recoveries on less than perfect landings.   I was say this is the younger more athletic version of the skiing shown in the very first video in this thread (the older instructor skiing trees and cornices in Park city).  As I have said, this is not my preferred style of skiing, but I think it is a good 'last look' in my first thread devoted to one style and the techniques it engenders:



I'll try to put together a new thread on the next style in my line up. 

[jim-ratliff]

...  Taylorism.   For many, efficiency is hardly the highest goal of any recreational pursuit.

And of course, even Taylor would stipulate that efficiency cannot be defined as a goal within itself, but rather a process 

OK, I had to go to Google Taylorism. And I think I would agree. What comes to mind is the golfer whose goal is a lower score. They either buy new clubs, or the seek the process of golfing by improving the individual skill components. Or the bowler seeking to maximize his score. Skiing competency or efficiency is much less measurable short of the race course. But there are plenty of people who thoroughly enjoy going bowling, but with no desire to really improve. Golfers, I'm not so sure about.

I think most of us search for 'competency' in our recreational pursuits, and perhaps one day 'mastery', though the very definition of that word makes it an elusive goal.  Both competency and mastery are primarily subjective, and the imposition of 'efficiency' is perhaps a pleasing way to objectify our playtime for some, but in the end, it is still evaluated by individual goals, which, due to their very individualism, are subjective.

I agree. And there is another efficiency, and that is the efficiency of the instructional system. What resources are expended for the perceived internal satisfaction with your skiing (because there aren't many external measures).

Well written, Liam.  (even if some of it sounded like a Master's dissertation) 
I'm waiting for the next one.

[ToddW]

When I first saw the New Zealand video on epic, my reaction was that this guy is going to have a life-altering accident on snow one day.  I respect his athleticism and bravery, but not his skills or his judgment.

[bushwacka]

the guy in the NZ video absolutely blows at skiing. Seriously horrible skiing. he is not even that athletic, someone who is athletic would look in balance at least.

With that said very few people on this site can actually skis those lines.

[HeluvaSkier]

"Proper" technique can best be summarized by not pushing against or twisting the ski by using extension or rotation while balancing against one ski.

This is using gravity and your skis versus fighting gravity and your skis. It separates the men from the boys... or girls from the women if applicable.

[bushwacka]

Pretty much the simplest description ever, great stuff helva.

[HighAngles]

I wish I had never watched that NZ skier video.  I think I need to go wash out my eyes now...

[jbotti]

When I first saw the New Zealand video on epic, my reaction was that this guy is going to have a life-altering accident on snow one day.  I respect his athleticism and bravery, but not his skills or his judgment.

I had the same reaction. The guy is nuts and doesn't have the skills to navigate what he is taking on. Not sure I can repsect anything he is doing because he is going to hurt himself.

[midwif]

Hey Midwif, no fair!  You stole my dream!  I am in love with that wicked short carved turn she does.  Y'know the one that turns all the other PMTS coaches' heads.  I'll give you three pieces of bubble gum, two jawbreakers, and some marbles if you give me back my dream.

Silver lining -- parts of the Hatfield and McCoy clans survived and their descendants get along, even having joint reunions.

Todd

I MIGHT be tempted by twizzlers, sour gummy charms and a bottle of decent, full bodied red wine, but that pittance above is no temptation.

On second thought, no, you can't have "your dream" back. I laid claim first. As a matter of fact, I think I saw Diana first!
Late comer........ 

[ToddW]

Lynn,

You're so young at heart that I reckon it's for the best to substitute red grape juice. 

On to Plan B then.  I'll see Diana in January at A-Basin and in April at Hintertux.  If I acquire her turns there, then you lose    I figure I can do that before Jay manages to ski inside Harald's left turns and outside Harald's right turns and then pushes Harald down as he passes him by.

[Liam]

I didn't want to post up in this thread again, and I am probably about to take this in a direction I don't want to go...but,

Bushwhacker is on target, on both counts 1. It's not pretty skiing and 2. He is skiing a line few others on this forum can ski (and that's just the 'snowy' portions, throw in the rock-spine aerials and I question whether anyone on this forum could ski the same lines: With pretty or ugly technique).   I have to entertain at least the idea that there is connection between point 1 and point 2:

Again, it's not aspiring to ski like anyone in these videos, but merely noting what style they bring into the mountains and how it works.   Now, as for 'not having the skills to negotiate that terrain'...I say, that is patently false, he does negotiate this terrain, and, frankly, if he removed the 'pursuit for the most challenging aerial lines' and sought merely to ski down these same slopes on the more planted snowy lines, this wouldn't be scary looking at all (though, I admit, too many eyes on this forum it would still be ugly skiing)...but, he'd have (and has) no trouble negotiating his way down these steep and often narrow big mountain slopes with his heavy rotary, hopping, wide-stanced style.  I'd love to see (and I mean this sincerely and not as a challenge!) other styles applied to the exact same terrain-particularly the very narrow, steep, rocky entrances.   

When he breaks from his skiing and bee-lines for a rocky, aerial line trying to maximize speed in order to clear said line (which in one case he fails to do) is where he moves from negotiating a steep line to pushing his luck.

Check this video-it's him again, starting at minute 4:21...it's a bunch of these guys at some big mountain competition in NZ.   He actually wins the competition with some pretty hair-raising line choices, but his style does allow him to get into these big mountain spaces in the first place.



It's not how I want to ski, and it's not the sort of terrain I seek out (actually, steep and narrow is fine, the high speed boulder hopping is just something that I will never do...I'm just too chicken).

Alright, I'm straying from my mission here (and finding myself in the curious position of defending things I don't practice or preach ).  So this time, I mean it, I'm moving on to another style-thread.

[jim-ratliff]

I have to agree that this is an interesting topic.
If the measure of style (or efficiency) is whether or not you win, then this guy's "style" works for him, but maybe only because o0f his athletic ability or just pure guts.
By that same standard, Bode Miller (or any world cup winning skier's) "style" works for them.
For people that try to emulate that style, it may not work so well -- in fact it may be downright dangerous. I don't think I felt that with the other people you showed, so that's where I think this individual differs from the others that you have highlighted. I shudder to think of other's copying his "style" in similar terrain because he was a winner.
I always go back to youth baseball. There are very successful major league hitters that are NOT the model of what you want to teach youth.

[Liam]

Agreed, Jim.