Should there be a "WAR Zone"?

[midwif]

Jim and I were discussing the line between "respectful posting" and not.

It has been hard, at times, to keep the basic premise. Both as a poster and separately, as a moderator.

Jokingly, Jim said we've struggled maintaining peace in the "Neutral Zone", maybe we should have another thread: "The War Zone"

You can say anything you want there. Have at it. Kill each other with your ski edges!

Any thoughts or feelings about this?

[HeluvaSkier]

It already exists. It is called TGR.

[Gary]

Civility!

War Zones suck...it's dog eat dog, kill or be killed, no holds barred, angry people, no..not pretty and certainly not the premise this site was formed on.

You can see and hear enough of that in Congress....pleeeez e...not here!

G

[midwif]

Okay, so far 2 against.
With cogent reasons.

Any dissenting opinions?

[HeluvaSkier]

I have lots of opinions. They may not be related to the topic, but I can start listing them if you'd like.

[HighAngles]

So what exactly is the idea?  How would this work?  Most times a thread starts out innocently enough, but then can digress into controversial issues and lead to contemptuous posts.  Will those threads then get moved to the "War Zone"?  Or will it just be another forum area with no moderation (or really self-moderation which is what TGR uses)?

[bushwacka]

the thing about TGR is this.

If you say something stupid or make people start hating you the maggots collectively will make it their mission to discredit everything you did, said do or have done. Most people can not survive their because they are not use to a libertarian web board.

You can not passively aggressive bait people and expect nothing to happen on TGR.

You also can not stink at skiing and talk trash about other people skiing, in fact on that site almost never talks trash about anyone's skiing. you could be saying Cody Townsend, Sage, or Hoji suck at skiing they all post there.

Lastly most people give the right answer there quicker than most web forums. Almost no one is ever really wrong there about facts, and people know the difference between opinions and fact.

I honestly think this place should not be a war zone, TGR is not a war zone, because  the posters are strong enough to stop that from happening, here the posters are simply not strong enough to self police If they were they would also post on TGR as well.

[Liam]

Well now that Epicski is promotional site for Vail, I might have to start posting up at TGR.  I have participated there in the past and had no ill results.  But I'm not sure that it is as free of unsubstantiated, chest-thumping, braggadocio as 'Bushwacka suggests.

That said, I think too many of the discussions here have been clamped down too quickly.  It's a small group here and the discussions, even when contentious, are a hell of a lot more focused due to the smaller nature of this forum.   

I see Max501 has pulled down all of his past posts except one's selling items.

Bush has been censored recently.

I have had posts squashed.

I appreciate  civility, but not at the cost deadening exchange, and to be honest, we all enjoy a good dust up once in a while on these forums.

You want to read one of the dullest forums right now? Check out PMTS (which as always, has great technique content) but the streamlining of all discussions has really taken the fun out of the place over there and it has lost a lot of it's vibrancy (and posters).  I get that it now serves as only a promotional site for Harb's products, etc..and that makes marketing sense I'm sure, but they've lost the ability to generate some of the really great exchanges, which were sometimes contentious, that developed into really worthy on line reading.

Which is something I've thought about a lot lately, many of these threads across the forums (ski forums, fishing forums, etc) really evolve into pretty dramatic and entertaining, and sometimes even thought-provoking pieces of organically created literature.   The move towards knee-jerk sanitization has done a lot to hamper the evolution of those threads, here and elsewhere.

Finally, the idea of a designated 'War Zone', is a bad one--you'd encourage a false incivility, which is worse than false civility, where people will post something inflammatory just to be inflammatory in a poor mock up of what really happens at TGR.

But I could see getting rid of the 'Neutral' zone...none of us are neutral, least of all the moderators--why pretend to be or that any of us truly leaves our host of biases and arguments at the door when we log in.

I also agree with the complaint, that an absolute insistence on a contrived Civility, allows passive-aggressive posters to run amok while disallowing well-deserved but direct challenges to those posters.

[midwif]

I have lots of opinions. They may not be related to the topic, but I can start listing them if you'd like.

Okay, but you have to put them in your own thread. Not this one.

[midwif]

So what exactly is the idea?  How would this work?  Most times a thread starts out innocently enough, but then can digress into controversial issues and lead to contemptuous posts.  Will those threads then get moved to the "War Zone"?  Or will it just be another forum area with no moderation (or really self-moderation which is what TGR uses)?

The former.

FYI, this was a 3:30 am thought when back pain woke me up.
Or maybe it was after the pain med kicked in.

[ToddW]

I prefer to remain the Neutral Zone ... I have the Vail site and other net sandboxes where I can throw snowballs at the fools, idiots, stuffed shirts, cheats, quacks, and charlatans who are so common in the snowsports industry.

If we do add a war zone, I suggest that it be readable by members only and that web crawler member ids be blocked, if possible.

A funny thing about the label "passive-aggressive" is that two reasonable people can utterly disagree about when it is applicable.  At times I have managed teams of opinionated individuals (world-class PhD's) sprawled across the planet, a situation which actively draws out the passive-aggressive worst in some individuals.  Although I am thus well acquainted with the behavior, IMHO I haven't seen much of it on this forum. 

The truth be told, each of us has offended or upset another forum member once or twice.  I certainly have.  (Sorry Ron.  Sorry Phil ... and every one else.)  It's just part of the internet forum experience.  I valued Max_501's participation on this forum greatly, and I hope that he will continue to participate.

[midwif]

Well now that Epicski is promotional site for Vail, I might have to start posting up at TGR.  I have participated there in the past and had no ill results.  But I'm not sure that it is as free of unsubstantiated, chest-thumping, braggadocio as 'Bushwacka suggests.

That said, I think too many of the discussions here have been clamped down too quickly.  It's a small group here and the discussions, even when contentious, are a hell of a lot more focused due to the smaller nature of this forum.   

I see Max501 has pulled down all of his past posts except one's selling items.

Bush has been censored recently.

I have had posts squashed.

I appreciate  civility, but not at the cost deadening exchange, and to be honest, we all enjoy a good dust up once in a while on these forums.

You want to read one of the dullest forums right now? Check out PMTS (which as always, has great technique content) but the streamlining of all discussions has really taken the fun out of the place over there and it has lost a lot of it's vibrancy (and posters).  I get that it now serves as only a promotional site for Harb's products, etc..and that makes marketing sense I'm sure, but they've lost the ability to generate some of the really great exchanges, which were sometimes contentious, that developed into really worthy on line reading.

Which is something I've thought about a lot lately, many of these threads across the forums (ski forums, fishing forums, etc) really evolve into pretty dramatic and entertaining, and sometimes even thought-provoking pieces of organically created literature.   The move towards knee-jerk sanitization has done a lot to hamper the evolution of those threads, here and elsewhere.

Finally, the idea of a designated 'War Zone', is a bad one--you'd encourage a false incivility, which is worse than false civility, where people will post something inflammatory just to be inflammatory in a poor mock up of what really happens at TGR.

But I could see getting rid of the 'Neutral' zone...none of us are neutral, least of all the moderators--why pretend to be or that any of us truly leaves our host of biases and arguments at the door when we log in.

I also agree with the complaint, that an absolute insistence on a contrived Civility, allows passive-aggressive posters to run amok while disallowing well-deserved but direct challenges to those posters.

Liam, I agree with much of what you say.
I actually find TGR refreshing in some respects.

The other 2 sites mentioned have become much duller without the occasional dust-ups.

I do wish that when someone is obnoxious, the board here would just ignore them. But that is not human nature.

There is has been very little moderation, IMO at this site. Mostly when exchanges became personal and more than contemptuous.
But, again, it is subjective and difficult to maintain perspective.

Overall, no one wants a War Zone and the forum has spoken.

We will try to keep as clear a focus on keeping to the main guideline. Discuss the subject, your feelings etc, but don't
personally attack another person.

Other than that, have at it!
L.

Just sayin' (stolen from P. Pug)

[ToddW]

You can say anything you want there. Have at it. Kill each other with your ski edges!

On second thought ... my edges are sharp and well-tended, so I'll probably emerge the victor.  Sign me up for the war zone and change my handle to "Ski Gladiator Audacissimus."  Be forewarned:  If I slay you here, your Vail site reputation/credibility points become mine along with those skis in your quiver that I deign to ski 

[jbotti]

There is a reason that violent video games sell so well and why Hollywood keeps cranking out movies with large amounts of explicit violence. Yes it sells and somewhere inside all of us is there is a thirst to see blood. When a fight brakes out, spectators show up real quick.

So yes from an entertainment perspective, the war zone is a really good thing. When people hear that a really good fight is brewing (PMTS versus PSIA, BB versus HH etc) we might get new members real fast just so they can show up and get a few swings in themselves.

There is only one real problem, they never go anywhere. No one ever wins and no one ever changes to the other team (at least not from what they read on forums). It's like tic tac toe and in the end that is a really boring game for precisely the the same reason (no one ever wins).

I see no reason to have a war zone. I do think that many mods in discussions have been potentially premature and it would make great sense to truly define the expected protocol for posting in a sticky up top. I for one am still unclear why asking a question of another poster in a post is considered uncivil?

[dan.boisvert]

I actually like the way TGR works, and am not opposed to seeing vociferous disagreements every now and again.  I agree with Liam that sometimes an emphasis on civility can be overdone.  Personally, I value content over presentation almost every day of the week.

The PMTS forum is tech-support for PMTS users so, while I agree the debates made things more interesting, they didn't further the mission of the site any.  I think Epic is more about who you know and how much you pay them than what you know, and I imagine the new ownership will put even more emphasis on sponsored posts.

What audience does this forum intend to serve?

I'd post more on TGR, except I don't fit in well with the forum demographic.  I've gotten along great with every maggot I've met in person, but it seems most of those guys are out chasing BC powder while I'm riding high-speed lifts learning to bend a ski properly.  It's a different focus.  Maybe someday I'll learn to ski well enough that I'll get into more touring, but that's not where I'm at right now, and I've grown rather attached to the sensation of arcing a ski and the forces you can generate on hard snow.

I'd be happy to see some interesting debates, and would not be put off by a bit more flexibility with moderation.  I had a conversation a couple years ago with an exceptional coach (I don't think anybody here has met him), and he commented that he stayed off all the internet stuff because, if somebody posted something showing he was an idiot, he'd call him an idiot, and promptly get kicked off the site.  Would I be able to handle a little namecalling to get insight from people with his kind of knowledge of the sport?  ABSOLUTELY.