PSIA Contemporary Ski Instruction

[dan.boisvert]

Just about every part of this quote is wrong (I am not going to discuss EpicSki moderation in any way shape or form though). But just what do you think that PSIA is? It's not a union (though many think that it should be) and most certainly is not a monopoly since as far as I know there are no ski schools at all that require membership in PSIA. As for discouraging mentioning PMTS, who would even do that? There is no thought police or union boss that follows us around to see what we are talking about.

It's right here, Max.  He explicitly says he's not going to discuss EpicSki moderation.  He's talking about PSIA.

Of course you can find inconsistent posts from the guy.  On EpicSki, he has to moderate according to their inconsistent written and unwritten rules, which I think I've established my opposition to.  Here, he can post as an individual who's reasonable and open-minded.  I don't see a use in tarring and feathering him for that.  I'd rather be appreciative that he's a reasonable guy who's stuck enforcing crappy rules over there.

[Liam]

Hey, Just want to put it out there...if Bushwacker doesn't want to take the PeakSkier HH scholarship grant, I will 

[midwif]

Sorry Liam.
You have not demonstrated sufficient amounts of testosterone laden bragadoccio,
which is the prereq for the scholarship.

 

[jim-ratliff]

With regards to the question of how many people have heard of PMTS. As many here know, Epicski.com banned mentioning PMTS a few years ago. My understanding is that Epic is run by PSIA members.

Does the PSIA (which has a monopolistic hold on ski instruction in the US) discourage its members from mentioning PMTS?

Max:
I have the following observation about the above (and I have no real knowledge).
Evidently, you assume that EpicSki restricts discussion of PMTS because some of the owners are also PSIA instructors?
I maintain that they restrict discussion of (and with) PMTS proponents because it is contrary to their business desires.
No owner of a bar wants to run an establishment where the guys from the bar next door come over and pick fights -- it drives away clientele.
The PMTS forum (and the PMTS business management) are very clear about what the goal of their business is and how the forum fits in.  It's not intended for the guys from the bar next door to come over and fight and argue about technique. Is a discussion of PSIA technique allowed on the PMTS forum?  "No",  because it detracts from the core business and is perceived to offend the core clientele.
EpicSki is exactly the same, in my opinion. The new owners consciously chose to become a "profit oriented business" several years ago, and they shed some long time contributors as a result of that decision (some of whom I enjoyed reading). Their source of revenue may be less clear to me, but it appears to be web generated advertising and sales, and they want to be free to do that business and to retain their clientele. In my opinion that has little to do with the PMTS/PSIA feud other than both Harald and management at EpicSki recognizing that allowing the feud on their respective web sites is completely counter productive. It doesn't solve anything, and it's bad for the goal of the business (which is profit).
So I would ask the question, "Why do you feel that PMTS should be allowed to be discussed on Epic?"

[ToddW]

Jim,

Not that you asked me, but I'll answer in the spirit of your forum signature. 

Joey Cordeau (cvj) and his school of bump instruction are fair game there;  Clendenin and his school make an occasional appearance;  BB himself frequently used to bring up the Mahre brothers' training system; etc.  El Hombre Rapido was a frequent 3rd party participant until he started his own forum last year and specifically sought to lure many long-term members away from EpicSki.  Tai Chi skiing, Dan DePiro, Greg Gurshman, Waist Steering,  ... this list goes on.  They tolerate almost any perversion of the establishment technique canon.  Much like Central Division.

Ownership has made it clear that there is a single publicly acknowledged exclusion.  The singular nature of this exclusion and the refusal to judge "bar brawlers" as individuals, instead condemning a whole population with a broad brush label (in violation of their own rules about labelling), is what makes this seem petty.  Clearly within their rights, but petty nonetheless for a general skiing forum.

Perhaps this will change now that their "new" business model of leveraging the forum to create an ESA ski camp business failed.

[jim-ratliff]

Jim, you are making some huge assumptions most of which are incorrect. Regardless...

Acknowledged.

[epic]

It's right here, Max.  He explicitly says he's not going to discuss EpicSki moderation.  He's talking about PSIA.

Yes.

[LivingProof]

Epic,
Thanks for the clarification. In the limited discussions I've had with ski instructors, I've been somewhat surprised about how little direction is given about lesson content, and, creativity in expressing content seems to be encouraged (at least in upper level instruction). My view of PSIA is very much in-line with Josh's view that it is simply a professional organization that has very little CONTROL over the ski schools at a particular area.

[jim-ratliff]

Yes.

Max:
I think the question has been asked and answered, and it's time to let this thread cease activity.
Epic has said what he's willing or able to say, so repeating the question in bold??
Gandalf

[jbotti]

It's start to feel conspiratorial when someones posts are deleted when the posts are written with complete respect. There are only about 9 people that post on this forum and I think we all know what occurred. I really don't have a problem with any of it until the powers that be want to say that something that happened didn't happen. If you want to make someone feel crazy you swear to them that what they say and heard didn't happen. To some degree that is what's going on here.

Now Epic can actually clear all of it up (and without violating how moderator duties on Epic).

Forget about the semantics and how some went to portray this. You (Epic) said point blank that you never had heard of anyone wanting to ban or censor on Epicksi. Yet your post to Dan (on Epicski) makes it quite clear that you are quite aware that PMTS and HH are not to be discussed on Epicksi.

I really could care less. I am happy to have you (Epic) post here. Just don't tell me that it didn't happen and that goes for the Realskier Mods who are deleting posts as well!!

A very simple, I'm sorry, I misspoke and some part of what I said was not genuine will do and then we can all move on. Epic doesn't have to do that either. But stop telling us that something that happened didn't!!!!!!!

[jim-ratliff]

Jbotti:

There is no conspiracy going on.
There is, I believe, some "covert agressive" behavior going on.

Epic appears to have said what he is willing or able to say, and was pretty clear from the beginning on what he would not discuss. His ethics should be respected.
The number of times the question is re-asked isn't likely to affect his response.

More importantly, the purpose of this forum is NOT to strive to sit in judgement of the actions of EpicSki owners or of the PMTS forum owners.
You and Max have raised questions about the issues and have asserted your opinions, Dan has voiced his current intrepetation regarding his post that Max quoted, others have joined in with their thoughts, and that is all fine.
BUT, it seems to me that everthing that might be constructive has been said, and holding on to the topic like a bulldog expecting some "satisfaction" serves no constructive purpose.

[epic]

You (Epic) said point blank that you never had heard of anyone wanting to ban or censor on Epicksi.

I didn't say that at all. I said that PSIA Does not tell it's members not to talk about PMTS (and that was before ever seeing the thing Max found from Central). I told you I'm not going to talk about EpicSki policy on this forum, and I am not. It's all still there on EpicSki, and it's pretty obvious what EpicSki's policy is re: PMTS.

[jim-ratliff]

Actually, you said that nearly all of my post was wrong. I like to learn from my mistakes so please identify nearly everything that is wrong below.

Max:
I think this is word-smithing bull-****.  If you want to pursue this line of interrogation, please do it by PM and not in the forum.
Jim

[jim-ratliff]

But how can I possibly learn from my mistakes if you won't discuss them with me?   

[jbotti]

OK I got it. No one wants to go further with this and that's fine with me. It's easy enough to lock down the thread and say no more.

Epic you continue to say that you didn't say things that you did!

Like here:

Quote from: jbotti on Today at 11:12:03 AM
You (Epic) said point blank that you never had heard of anyone wanting to ban or censor on Epicksi.

I didn't say that at all.

So make that work this this statement (see what I have bolded below):

Quote from: max_501 on November 19, 2012, 06:41:04 PM
I'm still doing research but here is another example from PSIA Central Division. Notice how PMTS is the only listed competitor.

http://www.psia-c.org/forms/policiesProcedures.pdf

8.1. Non-Compete
Every PSIA-AASI Central member who serves on the Board, in the Office, on the Education Staff, or
other defined leadership role within the Division, while acting or appearing to act in such a role, must not
promote or support a PSIA-AASI Central competitor or that competitor's interests.

A PSIA-AASI Central competitor is a person or entity listed in this policy as conducting a business or
operation within the Central Division's geographic boundary or market area that is similar in nature to all
or part of the Central Division's operations of educating and certifying snowsports instructors. The Board
may amend this list at any time.

During, immediately before, or immediately after any PSIA-AASI Central event, members may not
certify instructors under a competitor's system, distribute a competitor's copyrighted materials, promote a
competitor's trademarked terms, or promote joining a competitor's organization.

List of PSIA-AASI Central competitors:
The Association of PMTS Direct Parallel? Instructors (PMTS)

Well that is interesting. I'm in Eastern, all I can tell you is I have never experienced anyone or anything of that nature.

So the mods have to tell me, is this being disrespectful? Me continuing to point that the comments aren't truthful.

Look I could care less about the whole Epicski/PSIA/PMTS battle but but it does bother the hell out me when someone continues to say he didn't say something THAT WE ALL KNOW HE DID!