Head iM78

[Svend]

I had the good fortune of being near Banff this past week on project work (I'm still here, actually, enjoying the Rocky Mountain scenery....and working a little bit too... ), and so naturally took advantage of the proximity to some great skiing and hit the slopes yesterday.? Sunshine Mountain in Banff park still has excellent ski conditions because of its high elevation -- base 5400 ft; summit almost 9000 ft.? This is an amazing mountain, with vast terrain and incredible scenery.? Well worth a trip north...

I rented the iM78s, last year's model (same as the current Peak 78), in a 177 length.? The ski was a good choice as the conditions at Sunshine were a mixture of hard snow; ice with thin layer of fresh on top; and soft spring snow at lower elevations.? Unfortunately the skis had one of those terrible rental store tunes that just ruin the pleasure of being on some really great skis.? The edges were grabbing and catching, so much so that at least once in every second run one ski would catch an edge and take off in its own direction.? Nothing drastic, but VERY annoying.? Couldn't relax and enjoy the day.? It felt like the base bevel was zero, and side bevel was three -- Why can't the rental shops just get it right?

It took a few runs and some work with my gummy stone, but eventually figured out how to get the most of out them and not hurl myself over a precipice in the process. Then the skis showed some of the character that earn them such great reviews. Quick edge to edge (yes, Gary, the 78mm skis can be snappy-quick, to my pleasant surprise), great short turns, long turns, med turns. Very stable and smooth-running.? Near-perfect amount of energy and power in the tail for my size and weight (I'm liking that!!!), excellent combination of dampness, liveliness and power. Light-feeling underfoot, big sweet spot -- I never felt off-balance or in the back seat.? No speed limit -- really had them flying with wide GS turns on some open smooth runs -- totally calm and non-plussed. Very impressive.? Great handling in soft spring snow / hard snow / icy patches....all over the mountain, in other words.? My only quibble is that on occasion the tails felt like they didn't want to release me out of a turn, but that may be due more to the poor tune and less to the sidecut of the skis.

Bottom line:? These are very versatile skis, and with a good tune, they would be a ton of fun.? I could see why they rate so highly, and I would not hesitate to own them and make them my daily go-to ski for most conditions save deep snow.? Had I not skied the Progressor 9 and learned what a fantastic ski that is, I would likely be buying the iM78/Peak 78 now.? Makes me want to take the Watea 78 for a spin now, and see what they're made of....

Cheers,
Svend

[jbotti]

The Watea 78 is not nearly the ski that the IM 78 is. I own these in the 177 size and mine are tuned well and they just rock. This ski will do it all, from tight carved turns to wider GS turns, to skiing bumps and even up to 18 inches of fresh powder. The beauty is the combination of real power and performance (huge rebund and pop when skied properly) and ease of use. I can also tell you that the tails release nicely and quickly on mine so your issue was the tune.

On tunes, I am among many that resists getting base grinds. I have had too many that come back wrong or problematic. Almost always when I get a bad basegrind, the skis want to rail. It's really painful and it takes all the fun out of skiing. I have been lucky enough to get to know Willi Wiltz who prepped skis for Tommy Moe and Darren Rahlves during their WC days. I just had Willi put base grinds on 4 sets of skis that weren't right. He is also coming out to Monatan to teach the guys in the shop at my home mountain how to put on a quality basegrind. He also took two pairs of skis that had extensive side edge damage (to the point that I thought they were only rock skis) and they came back looking like new!! High quality ski techs are hard to find. If you ski in Tahoe, Willi had a shop this past season at Sugar Bowl. Next seaosn he will be at Squaw. I know a lot of guys that send their skis away to have them base ground to the Race Place up in Oregon. I totally understand and I will be sending mine to Willi at Squaw if we can't get the techs in Montana up to speed.

I am pretty pumped about my newly ground skis. They look awesome and I am sure they will ski great.

Unfortunately most tunes and grinds on demo skis were put on by a guy who knows little and cares even less. Too bad because it often prevents people from liking  and not buying what is a very good ski.

[Gary]

SOunds like a great time and awesome conditions...Now... in the future....when you order your rental skis, tell the guys you expect the edges to be 1 and 3, the base flat cause you're bringing in your true bar....now they just may so "go  ...hit in your hat"  or hey...they just might do it.

So....another 78 undefoot that has potential. Nice!
As far as that tail, sometimes a proper detune will allow that tail to release. I have gone to the extra effort with my drummel to round out those tails at the very outside tips even a wee bit more with great success.

As far as the Canadian Rockies....definete ly going there next season!

G

[Svend]

John, you are absolutely right about rental shop tunes ruining a great ride.? It's a crying shame.? I come out west occasionally in winter on business, and I will just rent skis for a day or two rather than schlep mine all the way here (my boots come along as carry-on luggage, however...!!!).? In all the renting/demoing I have done, there have maybe been two pairs that were actually tuned well.? Pretty pathetic stats, eh?? And it's probably one of the reasons I didn't like the Contact 4x4s....although even with a bad tune, the iM78s were far better IMO....

Gary, I attacked the tips and tails of the iM78s with my gummy stone, and it helped a lot, but not enough.? I even dulled the entire side edges a little to ease the nasty ride (gasp - sacrilege! Drastic measures, I know).? But I know enough about rental shop tunes by now that I always carry my gummy stone in my boot bag.? ?? First run, and then I'm usually at the bottom of the lift filing away like a nutcase.

But even with the poor tune on the iM78s, I could still tell that there was a really great ski in there.? A winning combination of power, energy, stability, dampness, forgiveness, liveliness, edge hold, soft snow / hard snow / ice performance.....jus t an extremely good balance of attributes.? Man, if the tune had been right on, I would have had an epic day of it at Sunshine -- the perfect ski for that mountain.? If I lived here, I would own them, and a second pair that were 95mm+ for powder.?

Back to tuning......I am going to have to find a really good tuner that can do a proper base grind.? My wife's Supershape Speeds are in need, as the bases are getting pretty scratched up from all the ice in Ontario? .? John, you are lucky to have someone like Willi.? There is a guy near our home hill that built his own monster grinder because the commercial ones didn't satisfy his criteria.? He says the stone on this thing runs at half the speed of others so that he can control the grind better and not overheat the base.? Once the base is flat, he does the rest of the tune by hand as per customer's needs.? He does a lot of racers.? I'll talk to him first....sounds like my kinda guy.

Cheers,
Svend

[LivingProof]

Because of a pro PMTS bias, I would guess the IM78 has been skied by many who post here. I bought a pair fully intending to ski them this past season. I did spend one day on them at my local eastern mountain and thought the IM78  to be a very nice ski. A few days later, I did a demo day with Phil and was seduced by the Kastle MX88. Philpug had a customer very interested in the 78 and did a great trade to get me on the Kastle.

But back to the IM78, a ski somewhat dated by today's fascination with fatter skis and newer models. No longer any real buzz and it would be ho-humed in an Epic review. I bought mine for less than $200 on Epic and they were used for 2 days and perfect when I got them.

But it still skis great for someone interested in carving at some higher speed or in broken snow! Maybe not a true classic ski but they will be seen on the mountain for a long time. A great value ski.

We trash some fine equipment much too soon. I have a 20 year old touring bike and it works great riding trails or hills . I couldn't sell it on Craigslist for $150. I'm sure we all have similar equipment stories. It's shameful.

[Ron]

its a good ski but it's boring. that's why so many get bought and dumped so quickly. I owned it for 2 runs.... The MX78 OTH, is a fun, energetic ski that can be skied in a wider variety with a much higher fun-factor. I don't think there's more to it. Its a good ski, just boring. my opinion only, your experience may vary and that's fine.

[Svend]

There's an Alpine yodel echoing around in here, and the song has an Austrian accent......

Kastle....                 Kastle....                     Kastle.....                             Kastle....

[Gary]

Hey Svend....oh Might Viking...

There's a few Italians yodeling:

       Kastle my lovely,                    Kastle so precious,                      Kastle my sweet,

Same message with the Italian inflections...!!!!?

[Ron]

best part is they rent space in the same facilities as head!

[Svend]

I'm getting a Head-ache.....

[Ron]

nice......

[jbotti]

Everyone here (and pretty much everywhere) knows that I am a huge fan of Head skis. I own many pairs and over the past 5 years they have made some awesome skis. I'm sure the fact that Kastle skis are made in Head facilities has a lot to do with how well they perform and are made (just like Scott Skis are made well by Fischer).

Having said this, I really don't understand what Head is doing. They are spending huge sums of money on landing the biggest name WC skiers and at the same time they are cuttinng down the race ski lineup that they carry in the states. And whereas Head has made great race oriented and carving skis as well as traditional all mountain skis that are all great (like the Monster/Peak line) they have never had even a remotely decent ski in the true big mountain free ride category. Actually the old IM 103 was a monster, but so stiff that only real pros could ski it. The rest of this lineup has pretty much blown. I don't think they have gotten much traction with the Joe, John, Jimi (I think a Carlos is coming) and that's because they were just repackages of existing skis (save the Jimi which was a rocker intro).

So next year they are de-emphasizing ther strength, race oriented carving skis and ther other strength, strong and powerful all mountain skis, and moving to all mountain skis with flappy tips. I think this is a sure fire way to hurt your business. The rocker buyer is not looking at all at Head and won't for a long time until they have some innnovative product that gets talked about for a few years. Their traditional buyer is going to get quite frustrated.

[LivingProof]

its a good ski but it's boring. that's why so many get bought and dumped so quickly. I owned it for 2 runs.... The MX78 OTH, is a fun, energetic ski that can be skied in a wider variety with a much higher fun-factor. I don't think there's more to it. Its a good ski, just boring. my opinion only, your experience may vary and that's fine.

Borrowed from a current Epic thread:

quote: "I kinda got the same impressions re the 176 Kastle M78 in that it carved a little better than a 177 Head iM78, but was less forgiving and not as versatile in mixed conditions, esp. soft manky spring crud where the tips of the iM78 floated easier..
The Kastle was a handful whereas the Head was like-cheating-easy..
Also the M78 didn't ski at slow speeds nearly as well.
So YMMV on these 2 skis which perform at the top of their class."
quote ends

Wow, someone has the b_____s to compare the performance of the Head and Kastle 78 and give the edge, in some areas to the Head. Talk about unenlightend idiots!

But isn't "boring" a summary judgment of a lot individual factors, including the objectivity of the person making the observation. The Head 78 did not elicit a similar response from Sven in the OP. Of course, he was at the base of a really great mountain getting in some turns late in the season and just trying to live the moment. All I can say is "Carpe Diem".

[Svend]

I think we all know by now that one's impressions, and subsequent preferences, likes/dislikes of particular skis is entirely subjective.? There are a lot of factors and variables at work here. some tangible, some intangible.? The tangible ones are obvious -- skier weight, ski stiffness, ski dimensions, power and aggressiveness of the skier, skill level, etc......? The intangible ones are things like biases of the skier for or against a certain brand, graphics (yes, it matters, subtly perhaps), and the exclusivity or reputation of a brand in the ski world.

In my limited skiing life, I have been on skis that others have hated (too stiff, too damp...whatever), whereas I have loved them -- they work exceedingly well for me, but not for others (eg. my Mythic Riders).? Conversely, I have skied ones that I have hated, but others fawn over and write gushing reviews of (eg. Contact 4x4)....works well for some, but not for me.

My point is that it is inappropriate to pan or overtly c**p on another person's preferences for a certain ski or brand, just because it doesn't fit with one's own vision of the "ideal ski" or a "great ski".? If it works for someone, and they like its attributes and the performance suits their needs, weight, ability level and style, helps them become a better skier and enjoy more of the mountain, well then let them enjoy it.  Praise them for a choice well made, and just let them get out there and have fun with it.? Everyone is different, and there is no such thing as a single "Best Ski" for everyone.? Live and let live, and let's all enjoy this great sport and not try to foist our biases on others.

Hope I don't put anyone's nose out of joint with my comments.? No offense intended.? Just trying to put things here in a different perspective.....

Cheers,
Svend

[jim-ratliff]

Well said, Svend.
And a key point in reading ski reviews is, I think, knowing whether or not your "skier profile" matches the reviewer.?

Skier, Know Thyself.

Svend doesn't match me, he's bigger than I.
Ron doesn't match me, he's younger than I and prefers skiing? different terrain than I.
Lynn doesn't match me, she's a better skier than I.
Etc. Etc. Etc.

Interestingly, Peter's "green skier icon" on the pay site does match me pretty well, and the combination of a "green skier icon" and the "blue skier icon" match me even better.? But if it has the "black skier icon" then it will be a stiffer ski than I like.

[jbotti]

LP, this is my opinion and it is a reflection of my skiing level and preferences. Let me also say that I have not skied the MX78. MX88 or MX98. I did own the FX 84 and I iwll tell you that both the Head IM 78 and the Head Peak 88 are substantially better skis for me, and I will also say that it is not even close. The IM78 is such a great ski, that I have trouble believing that the MX 78 could be much better, but we will have to wait for a demo on this. I have a friend who owns the IM 78, is an excellent skier, and has skied the MX78. His comment was that the MX 78 had a very slight edge on hard snow vs the IM 78 and that the IM 78 was better off piste than the MX 78. He called it a toss up, and was absolutey sure that he would not pay the additional $'s for the MX78 because he saw no real uptick in overall performance and/or verstaility vs the IM 78.

Harald Harb has also skied the MX78 and he loved the ski. When I asked his opinion vs the IM 78 he said the same thiing that my other friend said.

Now that Head has changed the Peak series, the Kastle MX line has sudenly gotten more attractive, but vs the old Monster/Peak lineup, I am not so sure.

Of course I will tell you all what I think when I demo all the skis in January out in MT.

I know that Ron thinks the IM 78 is boring, but if you ski the IM 78 with big tip pressure on every turn, it is nothing short of exciting. It can and will pop you off the ground it has so much energy and rebound. Maybe the MX 78 has more. We will see.

Again, this is my opinion and it reflects my skiing and my preferences.

[Ron]

ski what you like for sure but why huge tip pressure when it;s the weakest part of the ski?

[jbotti]

When you pressure the tips on any ski and keep the weight way forwrad in a carved arc, the ski bends. This tightens the turn radius of the turn creating more G force for the skier to feel and contend with but it also is what creates rebound in a ski. When you bend a ski in a tightly carved arc you are putting maxium forces into the ski and when the forces are released, the ski pops/rebounds. On race skis it can be almost unmanagable for the non experienced racer to handle. On the IM 78 the rebound is very significant. The softer tips in some way is part of the beauty of the design. Tips that are too stiff can make it hard for mortals to bend the ski. The combo of a tip soft enough to allow ski bend combined with a stiffer middle and talil will create maximum rebound in the ski. So the IM 78 is very damp and hugs the snow when it isn't being bent. It pops huge when it is bent. For me this is the best combo to have in a ski, essentially huge stability and huge energy from the massive rebound.

[jbotti]

Here is a link to some video of me skiing some steep terrain (I won't argue with Ron about what the actual pitch is) on the new Head SS's. I wipeout pretty good at the end (yes we need more video of good wipeouts!!). If you look carefully using the pause button, you can see where my hips are at the apex of each turn, and they are in genarel even with or in front of my boots (on the stance leg). You can also see that I am getting pretty significant bend out of the ski. On the last turn (before the wipeout at the 13 second mark) I get back just a little and with that much ski bend the skis literally pop me off the ground into the air (see the 14 second mark using the pause and you will see that the skis have popped my tails way off the snow). This is what I am talking about with regard to bending a ski and tightening the TR which generates huge rebound. If I hadn't gotten back, I would have gotten controllable rebound which can be absorbed if one flexess at the rght time to absorb the rebound.?

As for the wipeout, it loosk worse than it was. Once I got launched I needed to stabilize. As I was doing thhis I saw the lift pole and I decided to dump my tail on the ground and do a controlled wipeout. I was actually quite a ways from the tower but it looks very close on the video. It actually was pretty fun!!

http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2879

[Ron]

yikes that tower woudn't have felt very good.....

[Svend]

Having said this, I really don't understand what Head is doing. They are spending huge sums of money on landing the biggest name WC skiers and at the same time they are cuttinng down the race ski lineup that they carry in the states. And whereas Head has made great race oriented and carving skis as well as traditional all mountain skis that are all great (like the Monster/Peak line) they have never had even a remotely decent ski in the true big mountain free ride category. Actually the old IM 103 was a monster, but so stiff that only real pros could ski it. The rest of this lineup has pretty much blown. I don't think they have gotten much traction with the Joe, John, Jimi (I think a Carlos is coming) and that's because they were just repackages of existing skis (save the Jimi which was a rocker intro).

So next year they are de-emphasizing ther strength, race oriented carving skis and ther other strength, strong and powerful all mountain skis, and moving to all mountain skis with flappy tips. I think this is a sure fire way to hurt your business. The rocker buyer is not looking at all at Head and won't for a long time until they have some innnovative product that gets talked about for a few years. Their traditional buyer is going to get quite frustrated.

Hey John, are the Peak skis going softer for next year? All of them? When the 09/10 skis changed to the Peak name, it is my understanding that the only ski they made softer was the iM88, and that the iM82 and iM78 were unchanged except in name and graphics.  So what's the inside scoop for next year?

And their race-derived narrow carvers? Same thing? Now that would be a real shame, as they have had some outstanding skis in those lines -- Supershapes; the higher XRCs, now the TT80. Not to mention the women's performance line -- Power One (former Supershape Speed); Great One; Wild One -- all strong skis for good athletic female skiers (and no condescending girlie graphics).

That would be a crying shame if they dumbed down the performance of any of these.  I too am a big fan of their skis.  My first-ever skis were the iM70, which were a ton of fun to learn on.  For their performance skis, they seem to have been able to make a magical blend of all the right qualities that make a great ski, and yet make them accessible to a wide range of abilities from intermediate to high expert.  I sure hope they stay the course.  Personally I like the graphics of the Peak and Icon series, so at least in that respect they have moved in the right direction.

Looking forward to hearing the inside scoop.....

[jbotti]

Yes, they changed the Peak series for next year. They changed the tips and I have forgotten what they are calling it, but essentially they made the tips softer with maybe a little early rise. I have not skied them but I was told that  it does not totally detsroy the ski, but it definitely makes them less strong and harder to pressure the tips, and they flap some. Not great!!

The only thing that I have been told about the Race Oriented lineup is that they are de-emphasizing it in NA. Peter Keelty says thet they will not offer 2011 SS's in the US. Someone else has said that SS Speeds will not be offered here. For sure the whole line will have much lower distribution, and in general these skis will be much harder to find. The days of being able to steal SS's or other Head Race skis online will pretty much be over. Bad for us, maybe good for Head.

Of course all my info is subject. We won't know for sure until September.

[Svend]

Interesting....than ks John.

And I just found this thread on Epic which describes some of the changes for 10/11:? http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/91890/2011-head-skis-video-images/0? ?Perhaps we shouldn't despair the changes in the Peak 78, as there is the new Supershape Titan coming, which will be 78 in the waist.? Testers comments indicate there is a lot of performance in that ski, which will pull some of the old iM78 fans.? Softening the Peak 78 makes it more accessible to intermediate skiers, perhaps explaining Head's logic.?

As for the SS Speeds, maybe I should hold on to mine until the fall (I was going to advertise them now), when they might become a hot commodity in Epic's Classified section.? ? ? Top dollar, for sure! 

Edit/Addition:  In any case, it's a shame about changing the Peak 78, as it is a great ski in its present form.  Why mess with a good thing? And the graphics are cool looking too (this year's ski, I mean -- not too keen on next year's, although the 08/09 iM78 version in the pale red and grey looked decent.

[jbotti]

I spoke with Harald Harb about the SS Titan and he said it is one of the worst skis he has ever been on!! I believe he said it was way too stiff. I have not tried it but I won't after hearing this.

[Svend]

That is really too bad, then.? Dumb down a great ski and make its erstwhile replacement too stiff for most skiers to actually use.? Here is a link to see and overview of next year's lineup, or at least what Ski Depot is carrying:
http://www.ski-depot.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=head2011

And I take back my comments about Head's women's skis having non-girlie graphics.? Just looking at the 2011 women's skis, they are downright awful.? I haven't showed these to Terryl yet, but they will most certainly have her wanting to keep her SS Speeds for another few years.? Blech!!!? ?And the Power One is not in the lineup....or perhaps Ski Depot just isn't carrying it.

OTOH, here is a really cool looking ski....the new Progressor 10+:?
http://www.ski-depot.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=A09010&Category_Code=fisski2011&Product_Count=7
Looks like a slightly wider P9.? Flowflex binding, titanal layer, dual radius sidecut.....should be a sweet one.

It seems like Fischer is replacing (or renaming) their Heat line with the Motive line.? Some nice looking skis in that series too.? The Motive 84 looks like an interesting one -- SW construction, Flowflex binding (on a mid-fat? Wow!), perhaps more frontside oriented judging by the sidecut.

Edit/addition:? Just from looking at the lineup, it seems like Fischer is doing the opposite of Head -- strengthening their performance carver line with the new P10; making a serious performance mid-fat in the M84; and cleaning up the graphics on their all-mountain line to give them a more sporty/performance appearance.? Nice....

[gregmerz]

The graphics are awful across the whole line...